Mini Normal 2135 (Endgame)
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- Drew-Sta
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Drew-Sta Mafia Scum
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Why do you think he's relaxed? Why do you think he's interested?In post 41, Tanner wrote:
Exactly. So I don't see the point in waiting forIn post 40, PranaDevil wrote:Everyone is town or scum regardless of anything else."let's get everyone posting and solidly out of RVS stage"before I say what I think.
I think George is being relaxed in his posting and interested in solving - questioning vote changes.I find that to be Town indicative. Is it, as a whole, weak? Yes. Is it strong enough to get it out in the open and get the ball rolling? Also yes.
Do you scumread me for putting Persi on L-2? What about me having a "townread" early on?- Drew-Sta
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I think you're making conversation for the sake of making conversation and trying to look like you're taking notice of things that aren't really there.In post 45, Tanner wrote:
Posts 17/19/21 strike me as relaxed, 29/31 as interested.In post 44, Drew-Sta wrote:Why do you think he's relaxed? Why do you think he's interested?
The 'relaxing' you've cited is start-game small-talk which is usually a response to the excitement of a new game. If anything, I'd argue George is a little excited (as we all are).
The interested ones were questions, and of that, 29 is the only interested one. 31 was a response to farside.
You're clearly a little jumpy.
You seem a little averse to votes, if I may say so. Isn't a bullshit lynch a clue to who is mafia? I'm never for townies dying, but I think we're all aware that they do and quite often - that usually gives clues, don't you think?In post 47, PranaDevil wrote:
I've seen people enter and just throw a random vote on without paying attention to the thread, especially that early in the game. Not worth the risk.In post 46, GeorgeBailey wrote:
What's wrong with putting someone to L-2? Hammering would be an obvious scum claim.In post 42, PranaDevil wrote:The L-2 is more a scum leaning thing in my mind than a faulty town read.
Like, I get this mindset if it was a newbie game, but most people have the incentive to either unvote or not hammer.- Drew-Sta
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I'm suggesting you can learn things in all situations, even a quick lynch without solid information. Why? Because you need at least 7 people willing to vote and that identifies something.In post 49, PranaDevil wrote:
Are you somehow suggesting a quick lynch day one is somehow a good thing?In post 48, Drew-Sta wrote:You seem a little averse to votes, if I may say so. Isn't a bullshit lynch a clue to who is mafia? I'm never for townies dying, but I think we're all aware that they do and quite often - that usually gives clues, don't you think?
A lynch is good, a quick lynch where we don't really get any solid information, and could end up running down the wrong direction because "X quick-hammered on day 1, must be scum" would be a bad way to go, but it would also allow scum to do it and go "whoops" right after.
Yes, we can get information from a town lynch, that doesn't mean I want it to happen on page 2.
George has a point that poking and prodding with votes gains you knowledge. Getting to 6 votes teaches you something too.- Drew-Sta
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I have no problem with early reads. I have a problem with poor analysis.In post 54, farside wrote:Funny enough i get town and scum reads with a few pages.
I'm not married to the reads but it help sort people out and keep notes on those im not town reading.
I really dont see why tanners views should be pucked apart especially when he asmiited it wasnt a strong read.
People have strong reads early on all the time. Even on page 2.- Drew-Sta
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Agree.In post 56, Saladman27 wrote:
That's why scum would put someone at L-2, to avoid the sus of hammering town.In post 46, GeorgeBailey wrote:
What's wrong with putting someone to L-2?In post 42, PranaDevil wrote:The L-2 is more a scum leaning thing in my mind than a faulty town read.Hammering would be an obvious scum claim.- Drew-Sta
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No. I suggested we shouldn't be afraid of votes. Votes give intent and help identify patterns later. Something we can use. I also said shit lynches also give us something useful to work with.In post 59, PranaDevil wrote:
I threw down two RVS votes, then criticised Tanner for putting them at L-2.In post 53, Drew-Sta wrote:I think my issue is, Prana, that you threw down two votes, then criticised someone else for doing something not dissimilar to you.
And you subsequently have agreed that putting someone at L-2 is something scum would do rather than hammer... so you agree with me, while telling me I was wrong to criticise Tanner for it...
I guess I'm happy for collateral damage.
Yeah, sure, maybe it is. What of it? You have to poke and prod to get responses. It's clear you're responding. Why are you so threatened?In post 60, Persivul wrote:
That's a scum charge, but you don't vote it.In post 48, Drew-Sta wrote:I think you're making conversation for the sake of making conversation and trying to look like you're taking notice of things that aren't really there.
VOTE: Drew
Sadly not Just a player clearing out some cobwebs.In post 63, UnaBombaH wrote:Also - is Drew-Sta anything remotely similar to Nancy Drew?
Ballistic gets everyone nowhere. Ballistics, however, can be quite an explosive timeIn post 70, Persivul wrote:
We'll see - if it's a Nancy Drew alt she'll eventually go ballistic on me.In post 63, UnaBombaH wrote:Also - is Drew-Sta anything remotely similar to Nancy Drew?
I didn't ask him for his read at all. You've either not bothered to read what I said or misconstrued it.In post 73, farside wrote:
You asked him for his read.In post 55, Drew-Sta wrote:
I have no problem with early reads. I have a problem with poor analysis.In post 54, farside wrote:Funny enough i get town and scum reads with a few pages.
I'm not married to the reads but it help sort people out and keep notes on those im not town reading.
I really dont see why tanners views should be pucked apart especially when he asmiited it wasnt a strong read.
People have strong reads early on all the time. Even on page 2.
And there is only 2 pages, what were you expecting?In post 44, Drew-Sta wrote:
Why do you think he's relaxed? Why do you think he's interested?In post 41, Tanner wrote:
Exactly. So I don't see the point in waiting forIn post 40, PranaDevil wrote:Everyone is town or scum regardless of anything else."let's get everyone posting and solidly out of RVS stage"before I say what I think.
I think George is being relaxed in his posting and interested in solving - questioning vote changes.I find that to be Town indicative. Is it, as a whole, weak? Yes. Is it strong enough to get it out in the open and get the ball rolling? Also yes.
Do you scumread me for putting Persi on L-2? What about me having a "townread" early on?
I like your vote, but your reasoning sounds really odd.In post 60, Persivul wrote:
That's a scum charge, but you don't vote it.In post 48, Drew-Sta wrote:I think you're making conversation for the sake of making conversation and trying to look like you're taking notice of things that aren't really there.
VOTE: Drew
VOTE: drew
I asked how he came to the conclusion of relaxed and interested. Why? Because he drew a conclusion on a player that seemed off. So, it's sensible to ask.
The fact you are happy to follow a vote on 'reasoning [that] sounds really odd' without questioning the person for more info is indicative of your rash approach.
BTW, according to here, I should do the following:
I guess I deviated a little from the norm, but let's get that out of the road.The first school of thought is that you should claim immediately, ideally in your opening post. This ensures that the Cop will not waste an investigation on you. It becomes more likely that you will be lynched or shot by a Vigilante, however; otherwise, it would be too easy for Mafia to fakeclaim Miller as well. This is by far the most common way to play the role on mafiascum.net.
I fully expect to be dead by day one. I do, however, intend to make sure my remaining time here is as profitable as possible.
So, if the lot of you would lay down your votes off me, we can hopefully gain additional insight on someone else, in the knowledge we have two definitive townies running around, which means there's only 11 left to scrutinise.
I would also encourage the town cop to investigate someone else, not me.- Drew-Sta
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I’d rather wait to see everyone post. I also don’t feel compelled to yet. No-one has registered as particularly scummy.In post 84, Tanner wrote:I think I'd disagree with that, but that's a theory discussion I'm not really interested in at the moment.
Ok, one more question. Considering you're the one sayign we shouldn't be afraid of votes, how come you haven't put one down yet?- Drew-Sta
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I think what you wrote wasn't particularly accurate. That's what I picked up on and highlighted. I notice you haven't responded to what I said.
Once again, as I've said before, I have no issue with the votes. I have an issue with the reason why they were made.In post 88, Persivul wrote:
You said you need to poke and prod. That's what votes do at this stage.In post 85, Drew-Sta wrote:I’d rather wait to see everyone post. I also don’t feel compelled to yet. No-one has registered as particularly scummy.
TBH? Consistent approach.In post 90, farside wrote:
Again, page 2 what did you expect with his analysis.In post 55, Drew-Sta wrote:
I have no problem with early reads. I have a problem with poor analysis.In post 54, farside wrote:Funny enough i get town and scum reads with a few pages.
I'm not married to the reads but it help sort people out and keep notes on those im not town reading.
I really dont see why tanners views should be pucked apart especially when he asmiited it wasnt a strong read.
People have strong reads early on all the time. Even on page 2.
Your being picky about something that people usually interpret there on way.
In any case, stirring the pot to get reactions (which is my way of doing things) generally gets decent responses and allows for discussion. As we're having now- Drew-Sta
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Oh, forgot to respond to this.In post 90, farside wrote: @drew: how long has it been since you played mafia?
Several years on this site. I play on another but it's more a bastard role site.- Drew-Sta
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In post 128, mavsfan41 wrote:
I’ll preface this with I think you’re town, post 67 picks Persivul over Drew where I feel scum wouldn’t pick this battle or push against a vote for Drew.In post 113, Tanner wrote:Oh, 2 Miller claims. lol that's brilliant.
Though I'd say not to rush with the Day. Mavs, how come you didn't claim first post?
pedit: I'm not sure. 2 Millers isn't impossible, but I guess it's more likely one of them is lying.
By why didn’t you ask Drew-Sta why he didn’t claim miller first post rather than claim it in 79 which was his 8th post of the game? Just curious.
I didn’t role claim as I hadn’t checked the wiki until that point.
I’ve honestly never played a Miller before.- Drew-Sta
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Luca being AFK is of interest. Seems a good way not to get his hands dirty in the lynch then claim ignorance / that the lynch was shit.In post 140, Tanner wrote:Okay, what will your shit lynch tell us then?
I agree with Farside that UnaBomber's posts are beginning to smell. Their not being open to the possibility of two millers appears to me to be them accepting an easy way to lynch me to get to night.
I believe mav is also a miller (no need to claim, it is ludicrous to consider he's doing so to cover himself as a scum player). Thus, you have three townies cleared in a 13 player game. That makes narrowing down easier, and I'd look at those who are simply 'floating along' at this point as potential mafia.
I'm reading through page five. I'd just like to note that, while I only claimed on post 8, mav only claimed on post 2 and it was in response to my claim. He's using the fact I was waiting to see who came online. Now, by that thought process, I was waiting for everyone so I could role claim. The reality is everyone had posted well before I role claimed. I wasn't waiting to see if anyone would role claim it at all. I simply didn't read the wiki very quickly. I recognise that seems like a shit excuse but hey, telling the truth makes you look like an idiot sometimes.- Drew-Sta
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I’m curious about his posts TBH. Which is why I made a huff about Tanner’s posts about him. It appears like buddying. Which would be very obvious if it was.In post 142, mavsfan41 wrote:@Drew-Sta: what’s your feelings on George Bailey?
Georges posts from 1-5 were normal for game start.
6-8 appeared like he was justifying trains, as a form of pressure. I’m not against votes and while bad lynched aren’t good, they do tell us stuff. However, he seemed a little more blasé on it than I’d like.- Drew-Sta
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That’s a better post.In post 144, GeorgeBailey wrote:
Honestly, I feel like Scum would be the hesitant voter, for fear of looking scummy.In post 56, Saladman27 wrote:That's why scum would put someone at L-2, to avoid the sus of hammering town.
I can see why this sounds good on paper, but the fact that a confirmed town wont be spearheading the lynch makes the push less valuable. I think the whole point of the IC is that their word is much more valuable than a regular player.In post 61, UnaBombaH wrote:I'd be interested in a thing I've never seen or done before.
Feel free to call me a dummy dumb-dumb if it suits you, butwhat if we all agree that Wake doesn't vote for anyone today?
Hear me out - we obviously want his input and reads throughout the day as much as possible, simply because he is the only conf.town in the game so far.
But we won't be able to lynch scum 100% of the time D1 anyway, even if we had three conf.townies.
So my point is, thatwhoever we end up lynching D1, and whatever their flip might end up being, the wagon will only consist of unconfirmed players.
Does that make sense for anyone?
Because PD gave a brief reason for doing so, as Farside's was a naked vote.In post 102, Knightmare491 wrote:Any reason why you chose to question farside and not PD? He unvoted first.
But Mavs, you pretty much did the same thing. You counter claimed him like 5 pages in. And It's not impossible to have two millers in the game. I don't really think that's a scum-trait. Plus, Drew even said there's probably gonna be a vig that shoots him. It's probably a better bet to let that happen tonight.In post 118, mavsfan41 wrote:Drew’s miller claim had to come after everyone had a chance to post assuming the miller would claim with their first post. If he’s got scum mates, then he KNOWS they’re not the miller and MUST ONLY wait for the townies to post without a claim to snatch up that role.
VOTE: Saladman
I would encourage the vig to shoot me straight up. It removes doubt, is a safe kill (you won’t hit another townie you might need) and allows you to better analyse the day where I have been alive.
IC is far better to keep alive as you always have a neutral and trusted voice.- Drew-Sta
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That’s one of the more irrational posts I’ve ever seen.In post 149, mavsfan41 wrote:@George Bailey: so you’d rather let scum!Drew-Sta off the hook and lynch someone who might be town rather than someone extremely likely to be scum? I think you should’ve just bus’ed him rather than try this damage control plan.
George Bailey/Drew-Sta and anyone have a guess on the third?
Also who said anything about a vig? We might not even have a vig in the game. One of you guys hasta be scum bulletproof for you to believe there’s a vig.
@PranaDevil: I had never considered a double scum miller fake claim. Damn!!!! Next time I’m scum I’m stealing that one. That’s brilliant! Alas, not clever enough to have thought of that for this to be the case here though- Drew-Sta
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Answer me this. Why am I lying, but mav is not.In post 152, Tanner wrote:Or, oooooor, we lynch what is very probably scum, and let the possible Vig (which we have no proof of there being!) shoot in the other suspicious slots.
George, is your first reaction to a double Miller claim "oh that's not scum indicative" as opposed to "one of them is fucking lying"?- Drew-Sta
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And all counterclaims are right?In post 155, Tanner wrote:Because he's the counterclaim?- Drew-Sta
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Sure. So if people were already suspecting me, why would I throw an obviously suspect role claim out there to make things worse? Seems I've attracted a whole lot more attention to myself with it, than leaving it be.In post 160, Tanner wrote:Re George: Borderline Bastard™? I don't think I've ever even heard of something like that.
Re Drew: No. But it's much more likely the first person is the liar rather than the counterclaim. Hell, if he really wanted to get you lynched, he didn't even have to do that by claiming Miller and killing himself tomorrow! People were already suspecting you.
You're not looking at the intent of my posts here. I've not voted. Not even in RVS. Why would I, if I was scum, not try to throw you off the scent and WIFOM my way out of this? I've already said I expect to die very early. I know this. I want to make sure whomever I vote for, I'm convinced of who I think they are, so that when you people come back and analyse later, you might go 'Oh, Drew, the miller, he said X was someone he felt was mafia - let's try that'.
It's called trying to play for the town win, not my own survival (something townies do because they fear being lynched and only see survival as the testament to a good game played).
I don't deny I rocked the boat. That's what we're supposed to do though.
Think about the bolded here...In post 161, PranaDevil wrote:In post 157, Drew-Sta wrote:
And all counterclaims are right?In post 155, Tanner wrote:Because he's the counterclaim?No, but usually a counterclaim comes late in the game, not day one to a miller claim, which would lead to them being lynched day 2.
A scum counterclaiming usually happens in lylo or mylo.
Have you possibly conceived of the fact there might be two? I realise that's wildly crazy, but in this instance it will be shown that either there are two.
It is perfectly normal for the counterclaim to be treated credulously. Because usually there's only one miller. So what are you going to do when I flip town and conceive of there being two..?
Your analysis is poor, to say the least. Followed by this:In post 165, UnaBombaH wrote:
Did I vote you? Nope, and you can bet yo sweet PM-flip that I didn't for a reason.In post 141, Drew-Sta wrote:I agree with Farside that UnaBomber's posts are beginning to smell. Their not being open to the possibility of two millers appears to me to be them accepting an easy way to lynch me to get to night.
I'm all about discussion happening D1.
Something to chew on D2, and that's what we should be getting.
I was just interested in seeing who's willing to vote for you straight out the gate if they felt like it was an "OK" thing to do.
Haven't seen too many votes, and that might mean something in the long run.
I consider you a high chance of being scum.
I agree with your analysis.In post 166, farside wrote:In post 165, UnaBombaH wrote:
Did I vote you? Nope, and you can bet yo sweet PM-flip that I didn't for a reason.In post 141, Drew-Sta wrote:I agree with Farside that UnaBomber's posts are beginning to smell. Their not being open to the possibility of two millers appears to me to be them accepting an easy way to lynch me to get to night.
I'm all about discussion happening D1.
Something to chew on D2, and that's what we should be getting.
I was just interested in seeing who's willing to vote for you straight out the gate if they felt like it was an "OK" thing to do.
Haven't seen too many votes, and that might mean something in the long run.
These 2 thoughts do not line up.In post 125, UnaBombaH wrote:OK, I do not see a world where we have two millers.
I did get some nasty flashbacks from a game where I was a Town-Universal Backup though, and I fought the "claimed Miller"-lynch until the end..
I believe that same game had a Doc and other useful stuff as well, and I got slapped with a Miller-tag starting from N2.
Anyhoo, I guess we are ready for the lynch now?
Don't think much of anything useful will come from the scumteam anymore, now that one of them is already caught red-handed?- Drew-Sta
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Why is George town? You have buddied him twice now. I want a stronger analysis on why you believe in him.In post 175, Tanner wrote:Honestly I almost think George is Town for his spectacularly shitty defense of Drew if Drew ends up flipping red. Bussing as fast as possible is more in line of what I'd expect of his partners.
Prana, are you intentionally pushing the """contradiction"""?
Though I'll concede I'm also curious why Una finds me suspicious.- Drew-Sta
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Mate, scum throwing a hail mary like this after, what, five pages? You’ve got to be kidding.In post 179, Tanner wrote:
Not quite. Right after you claimed Miller, 2 people unvoted. It only started acting as an attention attraction once there was a counterclaim, which you at the time didn't know would be.In post 176, Drew-Sta wrote:Sure. So if people were already suspecting me, why would I throw an obviously suspect role claim out there to make things worse? Seems I've attracted a whole lot more attention to myself with it, than leaving it be.- Drew-Sta
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It’s more likely we have an unusual set up.In post 182, Tanner wrote:
I don't know what to tell you. I'm trying to go through possible scenarios, but double Miller claim? It seems much more likely that one of the claims is lying.In post 180, Drew-Sta wrote:
Mate, scum throwing a hail mary like this after, what, five pages? You’ve got to be kidding.In post 179, Tanner wrote:
Not quite. Right after you claimed Miller, 2 people unvoted. It only started acting as an attention attraction once there was a counterclaim, which you at the time didn't know would be.In post 176, Drew-Sta wrote:Sure. So if people were already suspecting me, why would I throw an obviously suspect role claim out there to make things worse? Seems I've attracted a whole lot more attention to myself with it, than leaving it be.
Yes. I think we’re on to a famous one.In post 184, Tanner wrote:Ya know, I really want to believe in the Innocent Child double Miller setup. That would be such a meme.
No. I doubt very much mavs would counterclaim falsely. If he did, he could still claim miller after I flip, saying ‘Who would have thought it?’ Then believe he will skate through the game. I find that possibility extremely low. And if it is true, and he succeeds? He has balls the size of church bells then.In post 185, Tanner wrote:Drew, are you currently thinking mavs is Town or scum?- Drew-Sta
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Oh please, that was not pressure at all. I was what, 3, maybe four votes in? Not unusual at all. If I was in the verge of being lynched and claimed that then you’d have a point maybe.In post 191, Knightmare491 wrote:
Drew-sta claimed Miller when he was under some pressure.In post 188, Wake1 wrote:OK, so what are all the claimed roles so far please?
Mavs later CCed him.
I also have a provocative style of posting. It attracts attention. So I’m used to having heat on me.- Drew-Sta
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I can’t wait to flip town. The egg on peoples faces...In post 192, Riabi wrote:Here are some of my thoughts on where we are
Of all the possibilities being thrown around, this one is the worst. I think a double bluff would be idiotic. The best move for town is to lynch/vig/otherwise kill BOTH of them. Any town that would let a claimed miller get through to the end of the game like that deserves to lose, in my mind.In post 143, PranaDevil wrote:... That being said... and this may be a ludicrous idea, but it's in my head and I'd rather post it for others to chime in on. What if we don't have ANY millers? What if it's a double bluff from scum? We lynch one of them, the other coasts to victory under a "confirmed town" heading.
166
I agree with farside here. Una does appear to be double-speaking here. Is it scummy? Hard to say, but, it's worth noting, I think.
This post is just awful. It reeks of low effort. Null-read on salad right now, but, man, if you're going to post so infrequently, maybe put a BIT more effort into the posts when you do?In post 172, Saladman27 wrote:As of now, my read for scumteam is una, george and drew. I'm sus of drew for obv reasons. I'm sus of george because of his spectacularly shitty defense for drew. Una is sus for defending george by pushing tanner. I think either Una or Drew were the bus target because of the quotes in 166.
Does anyone have the vote count on drew?
All that said, I accept the possibility that there are two millers, but, it doesn't seem very likely to me. I think it's way more likely that one of them (Drew, probably) is lying. Either way, like I said above, I think they both need to die, and as quickly as possible. Note though, that when I say "as quickly as possible" I mean in terms of game days, not necessarily meaning I think we should quick-lynch. I generally don't like quick-lynches without a damn good reason, and I think that there's value in discussion.
In that vein, I'm willing to vote Drew now, but, I don't want to put him too close to being lynched just yet, so I'm going to hold off on my actual vote until we get a vote count. If he's above L-2, I'll vote for him in a heartbeat.
@Mod, could we get a vote count please?
I don’t proclaim to be a brilliant player, but gosh, the completely retarded reasoning of ‘it’s totally unlikely, therefore impossible and Drew is lying’ reasoning is some of the worst I’ve ever seen.
I’ve advocated I die to help town get a smaller pool of people to scrutinise, but the lack of analysis is shocking, particularly on my posts.- Drew-Sta
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You didn’t make that clear in your original post. Maybe be clearer, and then I won’t confuse your intentions.In post 198, Riabi wrote:
I feel like I should point out that the argument you claim I'm making is literally not the one I'm making. I never said "it's unlikely, therefore impossible" I said, it's unlikely, and so you lying is more likely. I know you have to defend yourself but, mischaracterizing other's arguments is maybe not the most effective way to do that...In post 194, Drew-Sta wrote:
I can’t wait to flip town. The egg on peoples faces...In post 192, Riabi wrote: All that said, I accept the possibility that there are two millers, but, it doesn't seem very likely to me. I think it's way more likely that one of them (Drew, probably) is lying.
I don’t proclaim to be a brilliant player, but gosh, the completely retarded reasoning of ‘it’s totally unlikely, therefore impossible and Drew is lying’ reasoning is some of the worst I’ve ever seen.
What you’ve done (a form of gaslighting) is very effective at making a person look guilty, because you’re changing the past on them.
I’m not a fan of that behaviour and it stinks.- Drew-Sta
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Just as an aside, I don't take things personally in game. I've seen gaslighting used effectively by mafia before, so I don't consider anything in game a personal thing etc. Play the game, and play hard
--
This is directed @Riabi:
You said this:
You accept the situation as unlikely. This means the following:All that said, I accept the possibility that there are two millers, but, it doesn't seem very likely to me. I think it's way more likely that one of them (Drew, probably) is lying.
* You have a set view of the game set up, that you aren't willing to expand your mind to accept a different reality
* You don't believe me, and consider me a liar
I said this:
... which is saying what I said in my two points above. Just differently.I can’t wait to flip town. The egg on peoples faces...
I don’t proclaim to be a brilliant player, but gosh, the completely retarded reasoning of ‘it’s totally unlikely, therefore impossible and Drew is lying’ reasoning is some of the worst I’ve ever seen.
You said:
You are basically saying, I accept the two points as true, because the alternative doesn't make sense to me. And what I've said is such, but you've said something different.I feel like I should point out that the argument you claim I'm making is literally not the one I'm making. I never said "it's unlikely, therefore impossible" I said, it's unlikely, and so you lying is more likely. I know you have to defend yourself but, mischaracterizing other's arguments is maybe not the most effective way to do that...
I said:
... which is me saying 'You've accepted a truth and are behaving as such. As is indicated in how you are treating situation. I'm calling you out on that, but you're suggesting I'm mischaracterising your argument. That is false.'You didn’t make that clear in your original post. Maybe be clearer, and then I won’t confuse your intentions.
What you’ve done (a form of gaslighting) is very effective at making a person look guilty, because you’re changing the past on them.
I’m not a fan of that behaviour and it stinks.
Can you understand now?
Also, open your mind to the possibility that what I'm saying is true. Who benefits from this confusion and focus on me?- Drew-Sta
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It’s not a terrible premise. It’s a reality I’m trying to get you to conceive of because it IS what is happening.In post 202, Riabi wrote:The part I object to in your characterization of my argument is:
I've never said it was impossible, and to interpret anything I've said as that is disingenuous at best, malicious at worst.Drew-Sta wrote:‘it’s totally unlikely, therefore impossible
Then you go and add this:
This is a terrible premise, and completely false. It's not a question of willingness at all. It's just that I find the likelyhood of there actually being two millers in the same game to be fleetingly small. I've considered your argument that you and mavs are both telling the truth, and, while I admit it is possible, I just find it far more likely that one of you is lying. From there, I consider which of the two of you is more likely to be lying, and I think that's you.Drew-Sta wrote: * You have a set view of the game set up, that you aren't willing to expand your mind to accept a different reality
Once again, this is false. Your argument does make sense to me, I just don't find it compelling. There's a big difference.Drew-Sta wrote: You are basically saying, I accept the two points as true, because the alternative doesn't make sense to me. And what I've said is such, but you've said something different.
Why don't you stop trying to summarize what I'm saying and let me speak for myself?
You consider the likelihood of two millers as not applying to this situation. Therefore, it’s impossible for you to conceive of it being in play, and dealing with that scenario. I’m not misrepresenting or summarising your argument. I’m following it through to it’s conclusion.
Do you see that?
Tell me. What posts make you think I’m lying and why?- Drew-Sta
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A person who is avoiding this issue. Yes.In post 212, Knightmare491 wrote:
Sure a person who's on v/la is your scum read lmao.In post 206, Drew-Sta wrote:Knightmare, Una, Salad, Luca. They’re my scum picks.
Lynch me now.
Then look at them.
Una has not been consistent.In post 213, Tanner wrote:I saw another person accuse Una of "double speaking", and like... are you people intentionally playing dumb?- Drew-Sta
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How the fuck would I know that?In post 223, Tanner wrote:Luca is always V/LA on weekends. That kinda push is disingenuous at best, downright insulting at worst.
Far out...- Drew-Sta
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Writing this off is both shocking analysis and a clear and identifying statement that you're unable to consider a possibility you haven't set your mind on.In post 235, Persivul wrote:
So you're that sure we couldn't lynch scum?In post 153, Drew-Sta wrote:You can lynch me today if you need. I’m happy to be a martyr if you can’t settle on another townie.
Not a serious question. Now that the lynch is AFAIC settled, everything from scum is wifom. But I thought the way he phrased that was interesting.
This is foolish and poorly thought out.In post 236, Persivul wrote:
If he were "also lying," that would mean zero millers, not two.In post 159, Drew-Sta wrote:I guess why I’m saying that is it is possible he’s also lying.
Look, I’m going to die. That’s fine. But at least consider the possibility of two millers.
Explain why.In post 237, Persivul wrote:
Yeah, that's what I was thinking reading that exchange. Drew's the one doing the gaslighting.In post 202, Riabi wrote:Why don't you stop trying to summarize what I'm saying and let me speak for myself?
I agree that scum will WIFOM here. About the smartest thing you've posted so far.In post 238, Persivul wrote:
Drew is highly likely to be scum. He's highly likely to be the lynch. That means that everything coming from scum at this point is WIFOM. In my experience, that hurts town more than helps. We need more votes here.In post 203, Not Known 15 wrote:Drew-Sta (3)Persivul;mavsfan41;Knightmare491;
Foolish response.In post 240, Persivul wrote:
Scum claim.In post 210, Drew-Sta wrote:When I show up as town, what will be your first response in the game eg what will you look to do?
Explain your comment on Una.In post 248, farside wrote:
I disagree with 3 completely. If players aren't sure and a player claims miller a vig shot on that player is the best thing for the town.In post 234, Persivul wrote:
First, he's not going to be there tonight. A 2-miller setup is very unlikely, making him very likely to be scum.In post 150, GeorgeBailey wrote:I still think that if there's a vig, he should definitely be the target tonight.
Second, we don't even know that we have a vig.
Third, a vig should never shoot someone who's easily lynchable anyway.
You are scum!!!!In post 238, Persivul wrote:
Drew is highly likely to be scum. He's highly likely to be the lynch. That means that everything coming from scum at this point is WIFOM. In my experience, that hurts town more than helps. We need more votes here.In post 203, Not Known 15 wrote:Drew-Sta (3)Persivul;mavsfan41;Knightmare491;
You are lucky I wanted to play with you this game, but man there is no way I find anything on this page town coming from you.
On a completely unrelated note, Unabomb in no longer on the top of my scum list.
Salad, Persivul and Knight.
Still waiting for a few people to post more before finalizing my list.
Declaring yourself as town eh? So we should listen to you? Ridiculous.In post 250, Persivul wrote:
This is really lazy.In post 248, farside wrote:You are scum!!!!
You are lucky I wanted to play with you this game, but man there is no way I find anything on this page town coming from you.
Everyone learnsinfo is good don't rush the lynchin their first newbie game. I was on Drew before the claims. I'm mostly town read at this point. There's no incentive for scum!pers to rush the lynch here. As said, in my experience, extending a clear wifom situation generally doesn't help town.
And why were you on me before? Give me analysis. Stop throwing insults. You're playing foolishly. Do some proper analysis and explain yourself.- Drew-Sta
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VI type? Sorry, it's been a while, so some acronyms lose me.In post 253, farside wrote:
Well I can explain why everything read scummy that page.In post 250, Persivul wrote:
This is really lazy.In post 248, farside wrote:You are scum!!!!
You are lucky I wanted to play with you this game, but man there is no way I find anything on this page town coming from you.
Everyone learnsinfo is good don't rush the lynchin their first newbie game. I was on Drew before the claims. I'm mostly town read at this point. There's no incentive for scum!pers to rush the lynch here. As said, in my experience, extending a clear wifom situation generally doesn't help town.
The short version is that it reads fake. Each post come off with empty words and im feeling a lot of buddying coming from you.
@drew: this may sound mean but as unabomb continues to post im starting to see him as more of a vi type.
Actually, when I flip town you will look like scum. In good faith, and the belief that you aren't stupid enough to CC as scum, I'm trying to get people to consider the fact you also are town so you don't get fucking lynched D2. You can thank me when I flip, but for fucks sake use your head here andIn post 254, mavsfan41 wrote:@Riabi: your 192 suggests lynching BOTH the claimed millers? Wtf? When Drew flips scum (aka he fake claimed miller) wouldn’t that basically pseudo confirm me as a miller? Lynching me next basically rids town of a mostly confirmed townie. By deciding to lynch me after Drew flips scum is implying it’s more likely that Drew and I are both scum fake claiming miller than the more likely scenario that there’s one miller in the game and I was assigned the role.considertheir reaction when I flip town and what it means for you. If you are miller, which I believe you are, that means the pool of options is 10 in D2 for lynching (or less, pending who is killed at night, if there are kills), and that works in towns favour since you and the IC become the only two voices of neutrality that town can trust.
NowIn post 256, Persivul wrote:
I've considered it and dismissed it. Based on my experience with the normal queue, it's very unlikely that there would be two millers. Other people beat me to it, but I actually find a zero-miller scum gambit more likely than that. People do dumb shit to try to win scummies.In post 252, Drew-Sta wrote: Writing this off is both shocking analysis and a clear and identifying statement that you're unable to consider a possibility you haven't set your mind on.
Sure. He makes a judgment based on probabilities - two millers is low probability. That's fine, as most decisions by town in this game are judgments of probability. But, you rephrase it to imply that he's saying two millers is an impossibility, or that he refuses to consider the possibility. That's gaslighting.
Explain why.In post 237, Persivul wrote:
Yeah, that's what I was thinking reading that exchange. Drew's the one doing the gaslighting.In post 202, Riabi wrote:Why don't you stop trying to summarize what I'm saying and let me speak for myself?you'remischaracterising my argument and twisting what is said.
I'm saying because he cannot conceive of two millers in the game, he considers it an impossibility (because he believes the probability is far too low to consider it).
You are doing a great job of aggressively trying to get me lynched in five minutes flat.
Just make sure after night, if you're still alive, that you consider all possibilities. It's clear we're not in a 'normal' game per se.In post 261, farside wrote:In post 260, PranaDevil wrote:@farside, why are you viewing Drew as town? I assume as much as you viewed persivul as scum seemingly due to his vote on Drew.
(Also, I've spotted something rather interesting that I wish to bring up, but only after farside's response)
*puts on crazy/wifom hat*
I don't see scum claiming that early with little pressure. To be fair I was scum reading Drew from the start too. His post to Tanner about George was a bit much. His complaint about the votes was hypocritical and bias to say the least. But with manvs claim he believed in it and he even talked about it here with in regards to wifom: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11747814.
He could have stayed quiet after the CC or he could have OMGUS voted manvs as scum.
Scum is going to know they are up shit creek with a CC and get defensive. Instead he is still scum hunting. questing people and know he will be lynched.
if he flips scum I would give him a high five for the deceiving so well.
I am town. I know I'm dead man walking. I'm stalling as long as I can to help force scum to post so we can see what they say, and you guys have a chance on D2 to analyse more, rather than less.
Except thinking is exactly what town should do and the fact you're into turbo-lynches makes me consider you are suspicious. The above is literally anti-town. Why? You never get a chance to see what mafia is saying about a lynch.In post 273, Persivul wrote:This is really simple.
1. Two millers in a mini normal is extremely unlikely.
2. We had a miller claim.
3. We had a counter claim.
4. We lynch the first claim today.
5. If that lynch flips miller, we lynch the counter claim tomorrow.
Let's not overthink this.
Screwing it up? Now you're berating people for screwing it up, Mr Turbo-Lynch?In post 274, Persivul wrote:This situation - a D1 counterclaim - is what you dream of as town. Then when you finally get it, people insist on screwing it up.
Good gracious. I'm dead. I get it. But not scum hunting during a day phase is legit anti-town. There would surely be more than one scum, right? So why not take the time to try and find out who that is?- Drew-Sta
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And this is what I'm trying to tell you. The fact you're not certain is why I'm trying to get you to consider the possibility that you aren't the only miller in this game.In post 278, mavsfan41 wrote:Whoops...... sorry about that! You both have similar avatars. It was an honest mistake.
PERSIVUL’S 273 & 274 are on point. Thanks for the correction.
Lynching what iscertainly scum day 1 is a blessing for town.almost- Drew-Sta
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Mate, deal. I'll make sure the beer and dorito's are ready and we can have a good ole lol. Cause our mod has had a chuckle at our expense.In post 281, mavsfan41 wrote:@Drew-Sta: you’re right. If you do actually flip miller, I’m gonna be lynched tomorrow no doubt about it. I agree with that 100%. I think it’s waaay more likely that you’re scum who fake claimed miller than there being 2 millers in the game. We shall see (hopefully). If you do flip miller (I don’t think this is the case) day 2 I’m gonna be like “so there were two millers in the game, huh” right as EVERYONE votes for me. And then I flip miller as well. And town is like “well oh fuck.” But thankfully I’ll have been lynched and don’t hafta deal with town in day 3 being like wtf do we do now?! My first post in the dead thread when I’m lynched day 2 after you flip miller today will be “whoops, my bad.” Deal?- Drew-Sta
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Ahh... *taps nose*In post 282, farside wrote:In post 279, Drew-Sta wrote:
VI type? Sorry, it's been a while, so some acronyms lose me.In post 253, farside wrote:
Well I can explain why everything read scummy that page.In post 250, Persivul wrote:
This is really lazy.In post 248, farside wrote:You are scum!!!!
You are lucky I wanted to play with you this game, but man there is no way I find anything on this page town coming from you.
Everyone learnsinfo is good don't rush the lynchin their first newbie game. I was on Drew before the claims. I'm mostly town read at this point. There's no incentive for scum!pers to rush the lynch here. As said, in my experience, extending a clear wifom situation generally doesn't help town.
The short version is that it reads fake. Each post come off with empty words and im feeling a lot of buddying coming from you.
@drew: this may sound mean but as unabomb continues to post im starting to see him as more of a vi type.
?. The nice way to say it is he reads a little green behind the ears.Spoiler:
Mans: If there are 2 millers in the game, I don't want the lets lynch the shit out of it without a discussion and if I live to day 2 (which I should given the IC claim) I would fight off your lynch if Drew is town.
I would recommend lynching you before lylo or believe a vig may be out there to get any wifom out of this game.
That would explain things.
Re the second part with respect to what you've said, that's exactly what I've been advocating for (consideration that this possibility is actually happening) so we can utilise this period for future analysis and scum hunting.
I agree and said as much.In post 283, farside wrote:
I really don't like this from Persivul he's basically not trying to figure anyone out and just lynch the miller claim and if drew is town and manvs is town then isn't that more of a scum benefit?In post 273, Persivul wrote:This is really simple.
1. Two millers in a mini normal is extremely unlikely.
2. We had a miller claim.
3. We had a counter claim.
4. We lynch the first claim today.
5. If that lynch flips miller, we lynch the counter claim tomorrow.
Let's not overthink this.- Drew-Sta
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Tunnel vision is really bad. You are not showing yourself to be an asset for town.In post 286, Persivul wrote:
No, I'm doing a frustratingly poor job of that. I wish I were doing a great job, i.e. more people were voting you.In post 279, Drew-Sta wrote:You are doing a great job of aggressively trying to get me lynched in five minutes flat.
It's clear you are adding nothing to the conversation at all.In post 287, Persivul wrote:
As said, repeatedly, I see no value in the information derived from a clear wifom situation.In post 283, farside wrote:I really don't like this from Persivul he's basically not trying to figure anyone out and just lynch the miller claim and if drew is town and manvs is town then isn't that more of a scum benefit?
Actually, it gives the chance to see what people think.In post 289, Persivul wrote:
Yes, I do, as I've said. I think the wifom potential actually muddies the waters.In post 288, Tanner wrote:Persi, I agree the Miller claims have to be resolved (and plan on voting Drew today), but do you think there's benefit to rushing it? Since we still have two practically contentless slots?
Right now, I see what you, Tanner, farside and others are thinking, how you approach the situation and whether you're a thinker.
Frankly, you'd be the easiest person to manipulate if I was scum. All I'd need to do is get you trained on someone and you'd ignore everything else.- Drew-Sta
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/sighIn post 291, Riabi wrote:
I know this wasn't directed at me, but, I want to comment on this idea. I'm normally all for discussion and getting as much info as possible out there. But, at this point, the thread seems to have devolved into the ravings of a lunatic madman, to the point where I don't even read Drew's posts anymore. I just don't care what he has to say. Are you finding any value in his posts at this point?In post 288, Tanner wrote:Persi, I agree the Miller claims have to be resolved (and plan on voting Drew today), but do you think there's benefit to rushing it? Since we still have two practically contentless slots?
If this is your attitude, then can we all just get this over with?- Drew-Sta
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Look into Una (to confirm if he's VI or not), Salad and Knightmare.
George trying to clear me looks like buddying. Work out if they're scum.
Pers tunnels. Be careful of that. Tanner I've not made my mind up on.
I trust farside right now.
Don't lynch mav when I turn up town. Try to keep IC and mav alive, as they'll provide you with a neutral view.
I'm off. Enjoy the game. I'll be back to have a beer later.- Drew-Sta
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Hard to scum hunt when everyone is hammering you.In post 301, Knightmare491 wrote:
He had to make a choice, either he argues that mavs is scum and this is a ridiculous ballsy play or he argues that there are 2 millers in the game.In post 261, farside wrote:He could have stayed quiet after the CC or he could have OMGUS voted manvs as scum.
Scum is going to know they are up shit creek with a CC and get defensive. Instead he is still scum hunting. questing people and know he will be lynched.
if he flips scum I would give him a high five for the deceiving so well.
If it was me, I'd choose the latter too because it's slightly easier to scare town into believing it cuz they'll lose 2 days if it's true etc etc. He's not scum hunting, he's just questioning people who are voting him and defending himself. Plus he's posting walls whenever he can to make the thread annoying to read.
Hard to do anything but question when you keep getting told you're something, but you're trying to convince others it is different.
The posting walls is harsh but symptomatic of my posting style.- Drew-Sta
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I think that is exactly what I've tried to do. I've argued that my lynch is necessary to ensure town can understand the game set up better. What I've tried to do is get people to consider that I'm right, and try to work out what that means.In post 306, Knightmare491 wrote:@Drew if you are actually town, you should realise the situation we are in. Put yourself in our shoes, if one person claimed miller and another person CCed them. How likely is it that you won't lynch the first person who claimed to be miller?
Sure, I could have done that better. But I've never once suggested I survive. I've simply argued people consider the possibility then go from there.
Conversely, put yourself in my shoes. I've essentially been lynched for trying to play pro-town. And called a liar. Amongst other things.- Drew-Sta
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It seemed to be a good way to wash their hands of the issue. Someone later corrected me to tell me that this player is V/LA every weekend.In post 348, GeorgeBailey wrote:
This is kind of a weird attack on someone being V/LA.In post 215, Drew-Sta wrote:A person who is avoiding this issue. Yes.
Activity is almost never Alignment indicative.
I own the mistake.- Drew-Sta
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@mav - nice to see you come around to this way of thinking and the fact you think I'm contributing.
I've also suggested George is buddying me. You might want to go look at that 178.
I also think Tanner is buddying George (177) and I consider the reasons for Tanner suggesting George is town are not well founded.
/cue Tanner throwing me insults.
Also, mav, you haven't answered 356- Drew-Sta
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What town would hope to achieve with your lynch is rule out your CC as a scum tactic, mate. That's what they would want to know.
You gotta realise when I flip town, you'll be public enemy number one. So what are you going to do to benefit town in that situation?
I've accepted the best thing for town right now is to lynch me. It exposes something of the game set up that will benefit their decision making moving forward.
I personally also think the IC needs to be taking more of a leadership role here, as they're the only one town can trust. - Drew-Sta
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