Mini Normal 2135 (Endgame)

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VOTE: GeorgeBailey

ego.

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George, I'm slightly hurt you didn't react to my vote.

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It took me full 3 minutes to come up with that joke. Sigh.

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Let's make it L-2! VOTE: Persivul

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I'm feeling a Towny aura from George.

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I smiled to myself seeing those two posts with 17 seconds between them.

I'm not ~Townreading~ George, simply his posts on the first page and a half gave me a Town gutping. Is that set in stone? No. But for this moment in time it's strong enough that I felt is worthy to share with the class.

I agree it's way too early to form strong reads, but even leans? Pings? How many pages does a game have to have before we can start throwing out ideas?

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Besides, in the same post, you say me calling George Town feels like scum buddying. Is it by that same logic not too early to be scumreading someone?

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George is Town or scum regardless of whether everyone has posted or not, I don't see the point in waiting for Literally Every Single Person before outing my thoughts on the matter. And with the discussion of Persi's short-lived L-2 wagon, I think we're past RVS.

Do you have the impression that my read of George is very strong? That I'm 100% certain he's Town? Because of course I'm not.

Everyone is a potential scum, yeah. And right now I think George is slightly less likely to be one. Plus, I don't exactly see why

"The more town aware of my thoughts, the more they can consider them going forwards."

couldn't apply to thinking someone is Town too.

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Everyone is town or scum regardless of anything else.

Exactly. So I don't see the point in waiting for

"let's get everyone posting and solidly out of RVS stage"

before I say what I think.

I think George is being relaxed in his posting and interested in solving - questioning vote changes. I find that to be Town indicative. Is it, as a whole, weak? Yes. Is it strong enough to get it out in the open and get the ball rolling? Also yes.

Do you scumread me for putting Persi on L-2? What about me having a "townread" early on?

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Why do you think he's relaxed? Why do you think he's interested?

Posts 17/19/21 strike me as relaxed, 29/31 as interested.

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I like Persi so far. VOTE: Drew

Una, could you elaborate on 26?

As for the voting idea, I like it in theory, but I don't think it works in practice. If Wake thinks someone's scummy, but can't vote themselves, he'll start calling for votes there right? And if it's a mislynch it will be relavitely easy to hide behind "Wake wanted to lynch there" the next day.

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Assume 10:3. With 7 to lynch, it takes 7/10 (70%) of town to come together to lynch scum. If IC doesn't vote, then it takes 7/9 (78%).

How did you get 11%?

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Drew, you're claiming Miller?

I fully expect to be dead by day one. I do, however, intend to make sure my remaining time here is as profitable as possible.

So, if the lot of you would lay down your votes off me, we can hopefully gain additional insight on someone else, in the knowledge we have two definitive townies running around, which means there's only 11 left to scrutinise.

I would also encourage the town cop to investigate someone else, not me.

Isn't it a bit odd to say that you "fully expect to be dead by day one", but then ask for people to remove their votes as you're one of the "definitive townies"?

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...how is a Miller claim a more obvious mafia kill than a literal mod-confirmed Innocent Child?

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I think I'd disagree with that, but that's a theory discussion I'm not really interested in at the moment.

Ok, one more question. Considering you're the one sayign we shouldn't be afraid of votes, how come you haven't put one down yet?

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Posts 48 and 55 gave me an impression you find me suspicious, am I wrong?

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Any meta data on any of these players (actually good info) would be great. I figure also since the game has an IC either we're short on PRs or there's maybe a bigger Scumteam. Is that how IC games usually balance out?

I don't think so. A Day1-reveal IC by itself is not necessarily that strong imo. Unless there's means of keeping it alive, which we can't know at the moment.

Allegedly there's a Miller too. Fun stiff.

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I notice you haven't responded to what I said.

Err, what am I supposed to respond to exactly? To you telling me I'm making conversation for the sake of making conversation? To calling me jumpy? To calling my analysis poor? I mean, I can tell you "I'm not.", "I'm not.", "It's not.", but I don't much see the point?

@farside, why the change of vote?

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Hmm, ok.

VOTE: Knightmare

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Oh, 2 Miller claims. lol that's brilliant.

Though I'd say not to rush with the Day. Mavs, how come you didn't claim first post?

pedit: I'm not sure. 2 Millers isn't impossible, but I guess it's more likely one of them is lying.

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I mean, sure, Drew is most likely getting lynched Today. But I don't want to quicklynch this soon when half (?) the people haven't contributed past RVS.

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If my foggy memory serves, 3 or 4. Let's keep it that way for now.

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Why is Knightmare in the "rest of the players"? He didn't push Drew at all until you counterclaimed.

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By why didn’t you ask Drew-Sta why he didn’t claim miller first post rather than claim it in 79 which was his 8th post of the game? Just curious.

Because (1) his claim was slightly convoluted (linking a quote from the wiki page instead of just flat out saying what he's claiming) and I wanted to make sure his claim is black on white out in the open, and (2) I was slightly taken aback by him implying that he'd be a mafia kill over a

literally mod confirmed innocent child

that simply I didn't think of asking him that.

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Una, could you elaborate on 26?

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I like your analysis, however it assumes that scum!Drew had the Miller claim ready from the start. Which

could

be the case, but we can't know for certain. If he saw votes building up on him, it's possible he thought of the claim as a way to escape the votes or if a scummate told him to (provided scum has an Encryptor).

And of course, it all assumes Drew flips scum, and while it is my current bet, I wouldn't call it a 100% certainty.

I think at the moment I mostly agree with your list. Other than what I've already said about Knightmare (wasn't pushing Drew until the cc), I'm suspocious of him for somewhat unrelated reasons.

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Okay, what will your shit lynch tell us then?

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Plus, Drew even said there's probably gonna be a vig that shoots him.

It's probably a better bet to let that happen tonight.

Sorry, what? When did that happen?

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Or, oooooor, we lynch what is very probably scum, and let the possible Vig (which we have no proof of there being!) shoot in the other suspicious slots.

George, is your first reaction to a double Miller claim "oh that's not scum indicative" as opposed to "one of them is fucking lying"?

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Because he's the counterclaim?

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Re George: Borderline Bastard™? I don't think I've ever even heard of something like that.

Re Drew: No. But it's much more likely the first person is the liar rather than the counterclaim. Hell, if he really wanted to get you lynched, he didn't even have to do that by claiming Miller and killing himself tomorrow! People were already suspecting you.

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Honestly I almost think George is Town for his spectacularly shitty defense of Drew if Drew ends up flipping red. Bussing as fast as possible is more in line of what I'd expect of his partners.

Prana, are you intentionally pushing the """contradiction"""?

Though I'll concede I'm also curious why Una finds me suspicious.

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Sure. So if people were already suspecting me, why would I throw an obviously suspect role claim out there to make things worse? Seems I've attracted a whole lot more attention to myself with it, than leaving it be.

Not quite. Right after you claimed Miller, 2 people unvoted. It only started acting as an attention attraction once there was a counterclaim, which you at the time didn't know would be.

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Okay, so imagine the world in which scum!Drew decides to fakeclaim Miller. And gets screwed over by there being an actual Miller that counterclaims him. Tell me, what are Drew's partners doing? Is it:

(a) offering a shitty defense of Drew that they know will look absolutely horrible once Drew flips (and he's gonna flip one way or the other, because a double Miller claim *has* to get resolved before LyLo):

But Mavs, you pretty much did the same thing. You counter claimed him like 5 pages in. And It's not impossible to have two millers in the game. I don't really think that's a scum-trait. Plus, Drew even said there's probably gonna be a vig that shoots him. It's probably a better bet to let that happen tonight.

Why is your reaction that one of them is lying?

My first instinct was that just because there's multiple of a role, doesn't mean that it's a fake claim.

(b) turbobus while they're ahead to farm what little towncred they can from the flip?

lol brilliant, I don't think any setup review mod would have the balls to approve a Normal with 2 millers.

VOTE: Drew

I mean it would have probably been better if had let him interact with more people and claim later in the day so that we can catch the other scums as well. But oh well

Granted, I might be slightly tunneled on Knightmare, but you get my point. Knightmare's reaction is something I would sooner except from scum than George's - in the event that Drew flips red.

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Sure. So if people were already suspecting me, why would I throw an obviously suspect role claim out there to make things worse? Seems I've attracted a whole lot more attention to myself with it, than leaving it be.

Not quite. Right after you claimed Miller, 2 people unvoted. It only started acting as an attention attraction once there was a counterclaim, which you at the time didn't know would be.

Mate, scum throwing a hail mary like this after, what, five pages? You’ve got to be kidding.

I don't know what to tell you. I'm trying to go through possible scenarios, but double Miller claim? It seems much more likely that one of the claims is lying.

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Ya know, I really want to believe in the Innocent Child double Miller setup. That would be such a meme.

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Drew, are you currently thinking mavs is Town or scum?

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I saw another person accuse Una of "double speaking", and like... are you people intentionally playing dumb?

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As for my suspicion of Knightmare. Started off with an RVS vote, then dissapeared, and reappeared only to contribute to mech talk (65, 66). His first "game contribution" comes in 102, which was after I was voting him, and he prods about something that was posted a while back. And for the rest of his ISO there's very little "actual game-related content" while he's been pretty active throughout. So makes me think active lurking.

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...am ...am I seriously the only person here that knows what a reaction test is? After it has been laid out as such?7

pedit: Knightmare, I'm not talking about your inactivity as a whole (you'll notice I haven't pushed Luca or Riabi who have been the most inactive so far - Riabi up to recently at least.) It's the fact your posts are empty air when you *do* post them.

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Sorry to hear that, Una. Do you wanna talk about it?

pedit: this was re: 217

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Luca is always V/LA on weekends. That kinda push is disingenuous at best, downright insulting at worst.

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You can call me observative.

Yes, they were early posts. Tone is generally what I go for early.
Your very first post called Prada scum right after Prada did things that could be analysed as AI. I thought you actually saw something.
What does "that didn't fit your read on me" mean?

Also, how is Drew just 50/50?

pedit: is that true? I'm an only child, I can't imagine that honestly.

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Luca is always V/LA on weekends. That kinda push is disingenuous at best, downright insulting at worst.

How the fuck would I know that?

Far out...

Maybe by the fact he put up V/LA tags? And announced it in-thread?

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Sure, you couldn't know that part. But accusing him of avoiding the issue when it was clear that he's V/LA is still Not A Good Look.

To be clear, I don't think you're scum for it, and Luca could be scum regardless, it just annoys me to no end when people make accusations like that.

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@farside

...am ...am I seriously the only person here that knows what a reaction test is? After it has been laid out as such?7

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Una, I've responded in 229. You don't want to talk?

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How is that a scumslip?

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...no?

Drew basically said "If you cannot settle on lynching another Townie, lynch me" (and implying he's Town)

To which the response was "are you that sure we couldn't lynch scum?" (asking if Drew is very certain today's lynch would be that of a Townie, even if Drew himself isn't lynched)

How the hell do you get "we should lynch you instead of scum" there?

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Persi, I agree the Miller claims have to be resolved (and plan on voting Drew today), but do you think there's benefit to rushing it? Since we still have two practically contentless slots?

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No, I'm not. I'll obviously go back and reread if he's green. I'm more thinking about Luca and Salad's slots. Though I am kinda debating with myself if there is a point in waiting for them. Not sure still.

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Someone said that mavs is a good Vig shot even if Drew flips scum, which is just... wrong? A nullish low-content slot like Salad or Knightmare is a much better shot in that case imo.

Also, the longer Una deliberately continues to ignore me, the more annoyed I'm getting, but I'm not sure if I can in good faith call that scummy.

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For a *single* Miller claim, debateable. But a Miller counterclaim?

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Why would you assume Millers would know of each other?

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And on that note don't they also flip scum when lynched or am I off base with this one as well?

That is called a Death Miller. They're explicitly not Normal. A Town Miller will flip as Town Miller.

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I don't think the conclusion of

(1) Millers should usually claim in their first post
(2) Drew started getting heat
(3) Drew only after that claimed Miller (and later got counterclaimed)
-> It's possible his partners saw him getting heat and had a fakeclaim idea

requires actual setup knowledge.

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/cue Tanner throwing me insults.

Have I insulted you at any point? If so, I apologize, that was not my intention.

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As of now, my read for scumteam is una, george and drew. I'm sus of drew for obv reasons. I'm sus of george because of his spectacularly shitty defense for drew. Una is sus for defending george by pushing tanner. I think either Una or Drew were the bus target because of the quotes in 166.
Does anyone have the vote count on drew?

This aligns quite well with my thoughts at this stage of the game.

Luca, I would be interested in hearing what you think of George, and my take on his "spectacularly shitty defense".

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Drew, I'm not tunnelled. The reality is, in the vast vast majority of cases (and maybe all of them, but we don't know) there is either 1 Miller in game, or zero Millers in game. And what is more likely? That this is that exact one in a who-knows-how-many games where there are two Millers, with the reviewers knowing what shitfest it would cause, or that one of the Millers is lying? It has to get resolved.

pedit: Drew claimed Miller, mavs then also claimed Miller. That's all so far claims-wise.

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Drew, I'm not tunnelled. The reality is, in the vast vast majority of cases (and maybe all of them, but we don't know) there is either 1 Miller in game, or zero Millers in game. And what is more likely? That this is that exact one in a who-knows-how-many games where there are two Millers, with the reviewers knowing what shitfest it would cause, or that one of the Millers is lying? It has to get resolved.

pedit: Drew claimed Miller, mavs then also claimed Miller. That's all so far claims-wise.

So when I flip town, what are you going to do?

Look at who died in the Night, reread Day 1, and I guess look to resolve mavs one way or another?

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OK, I do not see a world where we have two millers.
I did get some nasty flashbacks from a game where I was a Town-Universal Backup though, and I fought the "claimed Miller"-lynch until the end..
I believe that same game had a Doc and other useful stuff as well, and I got slapped with a Miller-tag starting from N2.

Anyhoo, I guess we are ready for the lynch now?
Don't think much of anything useful will come from the scumteam anymore, now that one of them is already caught red-handed?

He pops back in later with this.

It just feels like scum trying to limit the info in the day. I can't see a town-mindset behind it.

Luca, you've fully caught up, right? I've given my thoughts on this post. Have you read them?

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Una has later said that post was a reaction test, yet almost nobody seemed to acknowledge it.

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I see. I'd be willing to hear about that, especially considering Una keeps refusing to talk to me.

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Una, I've responded in 229. You don't want to talk?

There was also this post, for the record.

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You expressed your suspicion on me in 225, which I partly responded to in 229. (And part of it I didn't understand so I asked for clarification.)

I wanted to see if you're still suspicious of me or if I made you feel better about my slot? And if you still have doubts to clear them up?

pedit: hah, there we go.

I see. But that's how I often am early game when there's little info - I push at the first things I see. I saw Drew being scummy at some points, I decided to vote. Once he claimed Miller, okay then, I'm going to accept that claim for the time being, I was already suspicious of Knightmare, I'll move my vote there. Which is in part why I jumped at your declaration of PraNa* being scum - I've seen accurate reads be made early, I'm interested in starting as soon as possible.

And, I mean, sure, either's he's Miller or he's scum. But considering

he got counterclaimed

, I found it odd one would still see the odds as 50/50? And same with mavs, he counterclaimed Miller. How is that still 50/50? Not sure any of this matters, since we have to have at east Drew resolved, but claiming there's 50/50 odds he flips scum is weird.

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Hmm, I was legit expecting a self-hammer.

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I've played with Luca before, for what it's worth.

I still have a bit of hope you're trolling, but that hope is dwindling fast.

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I know some scum like to keep claiming Town even after the hammer falls. And it's more for my own sanity of "there can't be two Millers... right?"

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Technically I haven't lynched anyone, I wasn't on your wagon. c:

The issue remains that double of any role in a game is dubious at best (other than obviously roles like VT or Masons), and especially Millers since it was very very likely at least one of them would claim early. That's almost guaranteed one mislynch + either a possible investigate shot going there or an additional mislynch. None of it makes sense.

But scum counterclaiming a Miller claim Day 1 is also such a ??? play. That's why I'm saying I still have that tiny glimmer of hope Drew is simply trolling. I don't want to deal with the headache afterwards if he's not.

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Drew, no matter your flip, you're a fun guy. Sorry we couldn't play together longer.

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Her

town

reads?

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VOTE: Red Panda

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Townies can be killed if their scumreads are correct, yes. I don't think that's rocket science.

What is a "gameplay pov"?

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I'm thinking about it. I see she kept saying she thought you were scum before she was killed.

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Okay, so the game is not COMPLETELY bastard at least.

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Mafia Miller is explicitly not Normal. Try again.

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Oops, my bad.

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What Knightmare said. There is literally no guarantee we have a Cop. Especially since two Millers literally give a reason for a Town Rolecop to exist.

Prana, farside was suspicious of Panda. Wanna join me there?

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...

mavs, you do understand that you're NOT getting lynched?

Okay. 2 Millers in a game with no way to confirm either is broken. It gives scum two free mislynches. In order to make this game Playable, Town has to have something to confirm the other Miller. Persi's role fits that. 2 Millers without something like a Rolecop is straight up broken.

There doesn't need to be a Cop. Just because a Miller is in a game, doesn't mean there is a Cop. And *especially* if there's two Millers. They're there to get investigated by the Rolecop. Holy hell.

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George, where you at reads-wise?

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What I don't understand though is why that claim confirms Persivul? If he is a scum role-cop, mavs seems like a pretty easy/convenient target to gain town cred.

Because why? mavs otherwise would've been a free mislynch. why would scum!Persi stand up, claim Rolecop, throw away a mislynch option, and then screw himself further because he's gonna get under fire once a few Days pass and he doesn't get killed?

Not mentioning the fact that two Millers with Town not being able to confirm either (so with no role like Persi's) is borderline bastard. If there is a second Town Rolecop claim, sure, we can talk. But honestly. The fact someone would legit suspect Persi here is insane.

(unless of course Persi and mavs are scum

together

but that would be one of the most insane plays i have ever seen so kudos.)

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Because why? mavs otherwise would've been a free mislynch. why would scum!Persi stand up, claim Rolecop, throw away a mislynch option,

and then screw himself further because he's gonna get under fire once a few Days pass and he doesn't get killed?

read again. not only that, he has to produce plausible results if needed.

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Mavs and persivul are either super confirmed PR, or literally the scumteam.

This is correct.

Scum reads: red panda, luca, knight/persivul.

Im more confident of my rd scum read. I may expect better from persivul so my scum read maybe bias.

This makes me think scum!Pers -

no matter mavs' alignment

.
Lucas tone also felt off when they were doing that out of the ordinary recap-focus on me D1.
I believe farside called at least one of them out correctly.

But you just said they have the same alignment?

Also can it not literally be Red Panda? Why is everyone ignoring Panda?

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Go to sleep.

VOTE: Luca

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Holy shit. We have a claimed Rolecop. Have you read the game?

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Yes, I have. The only reason anyone is thinking of Cops is because "hurr durr there was Miller there must be Cop".

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Mister Innocent Child, when can we expect something actually game related?

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...Why do you people insist on making this game more complicated than it really is?

farside was shot. She suspected Panda/Luca/Persi. Both Panda's and Luca's slots are horrible (I'd argue Panda's more so than Luca, but ya know). We swing there. Persi and mavs are of the same alignment, they're de facto cleared Town, and if (and that's a really really big if) they're scum,

it will be obvious later once actual Town PRs start coming to light.

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Okay. Please explain to em the hell does "killed for her townreads" actually mean.

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Ok, but what does that *mean*? "She was killed because of her townreads." Were her townreads correct? were they wrong? what does that mean that she was killed because of them?

I wrote Persi and mavs.

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And what is the so important distinction between "she was killed because her townread were correct" or "she was killed because her scumreads were correct"?

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They may be? How am I supposed to know. If you two are scum, then obviously yes.

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Gun to head, one of Knightmare/Riabi/Prana, roughly in that order of confidence. I think a scumflip in either Panda/Luca would be ++town for both George and Una. But I'm not the one to confidently claim a full gamesolve on Day 2.

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Those are my current thoughts, yes. Also, I'm not giving Prana a "pass". I'm still trying to sort him. I currently believe you/Luca are more likely to be scum than him, though.

Yes. I was Townreading Persivul yesterday, I believe the claim. As I said before, (1) I don't see scum!Persi saving town!mavs like this, and (2) if mavs truly is Town, then Town

has

to have something that can confirm he's actually a Miller (like for example a Rolecop). Because of those two points, Persi and mavs have to be the same alignment. Most most likely Town. And again, if not Town, that will become obvious once other PRs start popping up elsewhere and both of those keep surviving the Night.

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I'm voting Luca.

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Persivul could be a scum going for the towncred when mavs flips.

Town having two Millers with no ways to confirm either one of them (i.e. - without something like a Rolecop) cannot be Normal as it basically gives scum 2 free mislynches.

Also, are you serious in saying Panda is scum, or...?

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I think a scumflip in either Panda/Luca would be ++town for both George and Una.

Can you walk me through this logic? I'm not following it.

The way Salad has singled out Una/George, Panda keeps pushing Una, and the way Luca's been acting around those two slots too. Make me think s/s is unlikely there.

What do your reads look like right now? Or just thoughts on the game?

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Town having two Millers with no ways to confirm either one of them (i.e. - without something like a Rolecop) cannot be Normal as it basically gives scum 2 free mislynches.

Well this is already quite a controversial situation to consider, if consulting the wiki...

The foremost use of Millers is to weaken the power of a Cop.

+

Less commonly, a Miller may be put into a game without a Cop, as a red herring.

+

Self-aware Millers may also be considered Named Townies, as there is usually not more than one in a setup.

So, considering two Millers and no cop would sort of be a double-bummer for town anyway.

Yes, exactly. So going even further, two Millers with no Rolecop, is broken.

You still haven't answered my question about your read on Panda?

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Luca, can you talk to me more about your thoughts of the game? You said I was your strongest TR yesterday, does that still hold true? What do you think about my suspicions of Panda and the Knightmare/Riabi/Prana trio?

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WAIT, @Tanner your username is a ref from Driver SF?
It just clicked because of your title.

Yes! I played the original Driver as a kid, and played Driver SF back when it came out. Recently sat down to replay it, and thought the theme would nicely fit a mafia game.

Anyway, game stuff.
Prana, you almost seem hellbent on making Persi/mavs a viable mislynch. What's up?

First, a Rolecop cannot "clear" a VT. Rolecop gets a "Vanilla" result when investigating a VT, same as when investigating a Mafia Goon. Furthermore, if scum doesn't start dropping and we start to approach LyLo, there is going to be a massclaim at some point. And it's gonna become clear that they're lying.

I think I'mma go back to my pet scumread while we're waiting for Luca to come back. I don't want Luca to be scum.

VOTE: Knightmare

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We have had no new claims. I'm convinced that (1) both Persi and mavs are Town for their claims and (2) that all scum is in {Panda, Luca, Knight, Riabi, Prana}, somewhat in that order. Please do something game related.

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VOTE: Red Panda

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The way Salad has singled out Una/George, Panda keeps pushing Una, and the way Luca's been acting around those two slots too. Make me think s/s is unlikely there.

Honestly, I think Salad and Luca were just low-activity posting. Salad was just responding to me cause I was the one of the main focus at the time, and Luca looked like he was struggling to stay in the game. I don't think either of these slots are readable, and I think their replacements should be given new slates.

What if I told you... low activity is a scumtell for some people? How was that Salad post a response to you? And "giving new slates" to obviously scummy slots is very, very dangerous.

Doesn't look like GB is a viable lynch for today,

so, VOTE: Riabi

This slot just looks like it's happy to sit back and let town destroy itself while claiming to have not caught.

I don't really have a problem with the RP wagon, just her entry post day 2 is not something I would expect scum to make.

So... Town is destroying itself right now? BUT you also don't have a problem with the RP wagon? lol. What is your actual read on RP/Lucaslot right now?

Knight's first post of the game looked like a manufactured reason to enter the thread to me, and his day 1 posting wasnt great, and he was in Farside's scumreads. But his posts today have been better, and I have bigger fish to fry.

Please elaborate how are Knightmare's posts better today than yesterday.

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Of course low activity can be accounted for a scum read but that depends by person it's not valid across the board. Is that what you are using to justify my reads aside parroting farside?

And funnily enough, I know such low activity + repping out is much much closer to Salad's scum meta than town meta.

Yeah, I'm taking into account farside's reads. Besides, you were the first one to say she was probably killed for her town reads.

Do you think I'm being unfair? What's your read on me?

[Tanner]

So... Town is destroying itself right now? BUT you also don't have a problem with the RP wagon? lol. What is your actual read on RP/Lucaslot right now?

Panda slot is null for me, which is why I'm okay with it being wagoned.

Luca didn't post much, don't really get much of a read off that, wouldn't mind it being wagoned too.

Okay, so where is Town destroying itself exactly then? If you're fine with both wagons that have picked up steam on Day 2?

[Tanner]

Knightmare’s 630 is strange and reads like scum being forced to give opinions about their scum buddies and giving generic neutral reads vs appear to defend them.

I would say both are unlikely to be scum mentioned.

Knightmare’s vote on Riabi also makes me not think Riabi is scum. Riabi 577 & 578 made me suspicious of him for pushing Prana but ignoring Luca and Red Panda.

What does the bolded mean?

[Tanner]

Maybe you could instead explain your Una read that you've said you will?

[Tanner]

Persivul #241 is bad. Pushing for quick lynching of Drew, and suggesting the vig doesn't shoot if we have one, which... we have a perfect vig shot in the other miller after Drew flipped green. I'd rather we fixed the miller situation over not shooting.

I see no town motivation for this.

I see no town motivation for this.

Are... Are you genuinely serious right now?

[Tanner]

"hey, I am a Rolecop, and usually I am somewhat useful in that I can catch scum that is fakeclaiming but since I only see role and not alignment I am nowhere near close to a Cop. Hey look, a player that claims to have a role that only Town can have! I can investigate him, and confirm him! That way if I die, the Town has a second IC!"

"i see no town motivation for this"

[Tanner]

I don't know if you've noticed, but if the setup is 2 Millers + Rolecop, that is literally what it was designed to do. It was designed to save the second mislynch that otherwise would've been guaranteed. You're saying a Town Rolecop should've gone elsewhere to maybe (probably not) get a few other roles to maybe maybe catch scum once massclaim comes IF they decide to fakeclaim. while scum gets 2 ez ez mislynches. like. really.

[Tanner]

okay. prana, i think you and i have very conflicting ideas and playstyles in game. sorry if i was being unpleasant.

i think it's untrue to say i didn't have reasons for voting knightmare just because i didn't outline those reasons in the same post as my vote. (fairly certain i later on said why i was voting him at the time) or that i was only talking about scum drew. drew's alignment didn't truly matter yesterday - there was a cc, and that had to get resolved.

[Tanner]

i am one of the town

[Tanner]

wow clearly no one appreciates my contributions

Eve, when you finish reading the game we can talk. You're still less than one third of the way in.

[Tanner]

Friendly neighborhood reminder that we have a little over a real-life day left on the deadline.

[Tanner]

...I still have no clue how can you see Persi scum without mavs. You also know that wagon isn't gonna go anywhere. We need a claim from Panda, and we need to start moving.

[Tanner]

...I still have no clue how can you see Persi scum without mavs. You also know that wagon isn't gonna go anywhere. We need a claim from Panda, and we need to start moving.

If mavs is a miller as claimed, and I currently believe him, a scum rolecop will search elsewhere, knowing they can confirm mavs. Scum already know if mavs is a miller, so don't need to rolecop him. Simples.

(1) scum!persi would've let this town eat themselves by lynching another townie and he wouldn't have claimed shit (2) this game is borderline bastard if there's two millers with no means of confirming either. they

have

to be of the same alignment. please put your vote somewhere that's actually helpful.

[Tanner]

I'm not attacking you. I actually think this complete tone-deafness comes from Town more often than scum. I'm just annoyed because your vote is really really not helping right now.

[Tanner]

...That's L-1.

[Tanner]

I hate Interjecting your two's moments like this, but, Persi, could you tell me why you're Townreading Knightmare?

[Tanner]

Thanks, Persi. That's a read I gotta revisit sometime soon, glad to have your perspective.

I'm a tad annoyed that we have two slots not doing jack again, but I guess that's the game. I'm fine with hammer, fine with waiting.

[Tanner]

Actually wait I'm dumb lmao, should we not get a claim first?

[Tanner]

Or can you give a meaning for Pandas role outside of providing a "false guilty"?

Pamda's role wouldn't be a false guilty for a Rolecop. Panda was Ascetic. A Rolecop would've returned "no result".

[Tanner]

I’m a little confused about Panda’s flip. Their flip suggests Panda was in a day talk with others yes? And if that’s the case, do the people in that day talk thread know each other and are they confirmed town to each other? If that’s the case, where were they yesterday when Panda was racking up the votes and going to be lynched?!?!? Wtf?

Well... No. Panda wasn't in any PTs since she was a VT, and she couldn't be added into any PTs (by a Neighborizer if one exists) since she was Ascetic. She was basically a Named Townie, except a very shitty version of one.

I would argue that Persi being 1shot makes sense, but in that case Town probably has more PRs. I don't know when the optimal moment for massclaim is, if someone else does they're free to chime in.

VOTE: popopo

I'm going to vote this for now, additional slot that didn't do jack shit yesterday after catching up. Will try to reread parts of the game soon, but I have to reasses since Panda has flipped Town.

[Tanner]

And on a red flip, I really want to townbin popopopo and Tanner.

I'm sorry, for what reason do you townbin me upon Persi's RED flip?

[Tanner]

I still don't understand how I'm Town in your eyes if Persi flips red. I've not voted Persi at all and I've been very vocal in insisting he's Town?

[Tanner]

@Persivul:

who did you target last night

and what did you find out?

@Prana: your theory of Persivul makes sense. The only thing I wonder is why would

Persivul claim he’s 1x

unprovoked?

...

[Tanner]

Not yet, no. My best guess is still some combination of popo/Knight/Riabi/Prana. However, I see that I was dead wrong on Panda, and should probably reassess. While Persivul thought Knightmare was Town, I don't think I've caught anyone thinking so about popo, so I'm fine with having my vote there before I'm able to relook at the game. Won't happen today, sorry, I'm pretty tired, but I'll go over the most important parts again soon.

[Tanner]

How much difference do you make between "being on wagon of a counterclaimed Miller" and "being off wagon of a counterclaimed Miller while still constantly pushing for his lynch"?

[Tanner]

I have gone through popo's (very short) ISO and would like to point some things out.

page 1 down i already have a scumread (kngithmare)

Shortly after catching up, he expresses a scumread on Knightmare.

I believe mavs is a miller, the rolecop claim is slightly more up in the air, but the argument someone made that it would be far easier for scum to sit back and mislynch the miller today then claim rolecop and clear them makes enough sense to me for now.

-snip-

-snip-

this useless setup spec is not helpful, but its a good way to avoid scumhunting and look like youre doing something productive. same with the doctor talk, honestly prana looks like hes hunting for PRs at points today.\

scumreads - redpanda,

prana

, knight

(in that order)

townreads -

persi

, mavs, GB, Una (im tired i will try and work out a few more townreads tomorrow)

vote: redpanda

This is his catchup post with just the parts I want to comment on.

Notice that, with regards to Persi, he says that (1) the Rolecop claim makes sense to him for the Day and (2) that he listed Persi as a Townread.

With regards to Prana, popo says how one of his posts is useless and not helpful, and lists him as his second strongest scumread. (after Panda, before Knight.)

redpanda's latest posts dont do much to sway my view. still happy with my vote. i could get on board with a prana wagon when the time comes but as it is im fine with panda.

He did literally nothing for the rest of Day 2, eventually prodging to make sure the Panda wagon goes through.

i dont believe that shit for a second

Today, his first reaction is that Persivul is lying.

VOTE: Prana

Town encryptor, but not neighbor or neighborizer, is really weird.

Full disclosure: I was 1X. I withheld that yesterday to see if scum would target me N2. Prana's setup attempt largely negated that. Still, scum probably don't have something obvious like strongman.

very convenient to be a 1 shot.

persivuls actions make a lot of sense coming from scum. mavsfan had already claimed miller in thread and i think the consensus was that he was telling the truth. even with the rolecop inspect. persivul gets to get big town cred like he's a pr but avoids having to be accountable for any night actions moving forward, avoids having to give results THAT CAN EASILY BE DISPROVED. Just imagine for one second that persivul IS scum, of course he would claim 1 shot today because he cant confirm his role any longer because no1 else has outed there role in thread.

vote:persivul

All of a sudden, Persivul's actions make sense coming from scum, and the consensus was that mavs was telling the truth.

im still scum reading nightmare.

persivul lied yesterday and i believe he is still not being truthful with us.

And he chimes in that he's "still scumreading Knightmare", but notice how his scumread on Prana (who was a bigger scumread than Knightmare!) is mysteriously gone.

I would like to add, the idea that Persi's scum for not claiming his 1s modifier yeterday is complete bullshit. I have recently seen a game where the inverse of this gambit happened. There was a 1shot Cop and a full Rolecop in the game. Both of them were forced to claim on Day 2. 1shot Cop truthfully claimed 1shot Cop, while the Rolecop lied and claimed 1shot Rolecop. And you know what happened? Scum killed the 1shot Cop instead, and the Rolecop was able to provide an additional result that ended up clearing a player down the line. So get out with that shit.

[Tanner]

Tanner, where are you on Prana? For as much scummy shit that I'm seeing, I've also seen a couple things townie, e.g. his progression on you.

He's in my "possible scumpool", but I haven't gone through his slot again yet. I need a bit of time to digest his wallposts (I'll admit that I was more skimming over some of them rather than reading), plus VCA has never been my strong suit, and I want to look at that post (799) further - I don't understand some parts of it, such as him calling Drew "the easiest lynch ever" (when it clearly wasn't the case) and being 100% sure there's scum in Tanner/popo yet never expressing willingness to vote either today.

Could you give me a tl;dr on why his progression on me strikes you as townie? I'm not sure I've seen much about me other than him questioning you and me and the "scum in Tanner/popo" point.

[Tanner]

Maybe. Though I'd feel more comfortable with that suggestion if you'd done something today. What are your thoughts on Prana/Persi?

[Tanner]

@popopo, I see you're online plenty, mind giving us your opinion on the whole Prana/Persi thing? What's your read on Prana right now?

[Tanner]

... Please tell me I'm not the only one who sees how bad this above post is.

You were scumreading Prana. You were Townreading Persivul. Where is the progression on either of those? What has made you suspect Persivul, other than him withholding he's 1shot? What do you think about my post saying that's a towny thing to do? What do you think about Prana's non-setup specc posts? What do you think about my post "casing" you? What do you think about

literally anything else

in the game?

[Tanner]

@Ruby
Hello. Why is George scum? Some more "pressing" issues today are the spat between Persi and Prana, any thoughts on that?

@Prana

... Please tell me I'm not the only one who sees how bad this above post is.

You were scumreading Prana. You were Townreading Persivul. Where is the progression on either of those? What has made you suspect Persivul, other than him withholding he's 1shot? What do you think about my post saying that's a towny thing to do? What do you think about Prana's non-setup specc posts? What do you think about my post "casing" you? What do you think about

literally anything else

in the game?

Oh no, it was a garbage post for certain, I'm trying to keep in my mind that, from my eyes, scum is between you or popo, and so don't immediately wish to side with you against popo.

It's entirely possible you've targeted popo because I'm the one who's spotted the scum must be between us three and it clearly makes sense, so hope to build a case there. Simultaneously, popo could be trying to buddy me with their post to make me side with them by saying they suddenly find me town. My ISO of you both will shed some light on it, and I will do both of them tomorrow, because today is going to be busy as all fuck.

So... either you're scum trying to mince my motivations or you're genuinely that self-absorbed. I've been calling popo's slot possible scum for a good while now. Don't try to make it out as if I'm trying to kiss up to you because you did some faulty VCA and got to the conclusion of "oh there must be scum in popo/Tanner".

[Tanner]

If that VCA was faulty... why not try and fix it?

No response to my callout about you trying to paint me as a pocketer? No? Ok.

VCA is faulty because you arrive at the conclusion of "there must be scum in Prana/popo/Tanner" because the three of us were off-wagon. It wasn't an ordinary D1 mislynch wagon, it was a counterclaimed Miller. We can sit here for hours debating "scum were more likely to be on wagon because believing two Millers would be TMI-y" or "scum were more likely to be off wagon to not get their hands bloody" but it's all WIFOM.

Now, make no mistake, I agree with your conclusion that there's scum in Prana/popo/Tanner. I think that pool possibly has 2 out of 3 scum there. As I have been saying that for a while now. I just disagree how you got there.

from how fast i blazed through reading eve's iso though (given my mach-12 rate of reading given my astronomical IQ) it seemed like she had reads, though?

That's interesting too. Since the NK was the IC over the PR, would that mean the IC was killed for her reads?

She scumread Una, Prana and Riabi. popo's partner is probably 1 in those 3.

Eve was not necessarily killed for her reads, as at the time D2 ended, she had read about 1/3rd of the game. Wake was not killed because he was useless. Replacements however are dangerous because they offer a new perspective on the game. A replacement in the IC slot... yeah that's gonna die.

You are aware that there's most likely 3 scum in this game rather than 2?

Okay, can we lynch popo now? He's obviously avoiding this game, he's ellitelling, none of his progressions make sense, and he's refusing to comment on most of the game. Not to say I would be dissatisfied with a Prana lynch though.

[Tanner]

Persi, how accurate is 644 right now?

[Tanner]

Persi, how accurate is 644 right now?

Here's where I am:

Town - mavs, tanner
Lean Town - Knightmare
Scummy side of null - Unabomber, Riabi
Scum - George, popo, prana

I was more confident in that scum team a couple days ago, but Una and Riabi going quiet has me concerned.

You?

I think I'm more or less in agreement with that list. I believe both you and mavs are Tow.

I still have a feeling George is mislynch bait. I wanted to maybe meta check him, but I haven't had the opportunity yet, and I don't think he's getting lynched today anyway so I can do that if I'm alive the following days.

I came into this day thinking that (assuming you/mavs Town) a Persivul lynch would be great for scum - mavs dies, and tomorrow is the most likely lylo of popo/Prana/Tanner/Una/Riabi/George - and I highly highly doubt Town ever wins that. And then popo and Prana started hardpushing there.

I've been calling popo suspicious for a while now, and his recent posts just further my scumread on him. His progression (?) on Prana makes no sense, his progression (?) on you makes no sense, his explanations are either horrible or he flat out refuse to provide them, and he's avoiding this game. And I would agree that popo's redflip is Not A Good Look on Prana.

I still think Una's townie, granted I've never played with him so I can't say for his meta, but his "tunnel" on me seems like a weird thing for scum to fake if that makes sense? Riabi I'm not feeling great on, and I'm very puzzled on what Ruby is doing here. Knightmare I haven't taken another look on yet, but I don't think I'll want to lynch him today anyway, so.

[Tanner]

@Persi, I noticed that about 647 too, which is why I kept quiet about it and kept pushing elsewhere, coupled with the fact I wasn't exactly scumreading Una before that either.

[Tanner]

i agree with prana that persi is extremely sus. my scumread on prana from yesterday i think was more of a playstlye thing, as the setup spec has continued.

im still down to get on knightmare but i really dont see why we dont lynch persi today. he lied about his claim, and checking the miller with a 1 shot just seems dumb to me. (and not true)

Would scum try and go for a PR though? If Prana and popo are scum together, trying to vote out Persi seems like a gambit move. Even if still a 1-shot, doesn't seem like the safe scum move.

I mean, first you're assuming scum is always going to be doing "safe" moves, which is just flat-out wrong. Second, have you seen my argument for where a town!Persi flip today leaves us tomorrow? Scum would be in a great position there.

[Tanner]

So, uhh... That happened.

UNVOTE:

I don't think I have anything to add until we hear from Persi. Though I'm still thinking about my "Persi/mavs must be of the same alignment" claim. We'll see I guess.

[Tanner]

Well, now I'm curious. Also, will you say what 932's about now that Persi has showed up?

[Tanner]

Are you sure it was inevitable? popo had only 2 votes on him at the time.

[Tanner]

Oooh, that's spicy. Is this where I play devil's advocate?

pedit: pros and cons? also these were @una

@Persi, perhaps. You'd put him as the third with Prana, or?

ppedit: damn, y'all post a lot.

[Tanner]

Food for thought: assume popopopo is scum fakeclaiming - how did they know georgebailey didn't go anywhere N1?

Hold it - scum tracker is a thing too, so no, the George association isn't a hard scum point. But George is scum nonetheless.

I was about to say that, technically a scum Vanilla Cop is a thing too.

[Tanner]

Food for thought: assume popopopo is scum fakeclaiming - how did they know georgebailey didn't go anywhere N1?

Popopop said Luca tracked George N1. Popopopo replaced that slot so one would assume they would be privileged to know the results of Luca’s N1 actions.

If popo is

scum fakeclaiming Tracker.

[Tanner]

Oh, and note that I'm not

putting

him on. Those three have been my scum team for some time. See 879. Now this desperate play by popo to get rid of me, and George jumping right on? I mean I'd almost flip myself at this point just to prove the point and get them all lynched.

Apologies, that was the wrong word to use. I meant it along the lines of "are they your current solve?"

[Tanner]

Food for thought: assume popopopo is scum fakeclaiming - how did they know georgebailey didn't go anywhere N1?

Hold it - scum tracker is a thing too, so no, the George association isn't a hard scum point. But George is scum nonetheless.

That's why it's food for thought and not an outright mistake.

I'm also considering whether Town!Tracker-LucaBlight would've checked George N1...I guess it's more likely than scum!Luca tracking town!George?

I think he would? I remember Luca saying he suspects George.

[Tanner]

I'm trying to weight the pros and cons in my head.

If we lynch Persivul today, we could still potentially get more results from a Tracker. (as in - believe popopopopo = scum-Persivul)

If we lynch popopopo today, we basically force scum to kill Persivul/mavs, and we still have one rather-easy-to-believe townslot left. (as in - believe Persivul = scum-popopopo).

Well, even if this is scum!Persi and town!popo, and we lynch Persi today, I think popo just gets shot tonight. There wouldn't be any more results from him.

[Tanner]

I think? we lynch popo today? Even if popo is Town, we wouldn't be able to get any more results from him since he'd get shot anyway. So either he flips scum, which is great, or we lynch Persi>mavs (because I still believe they have to be the same alignment).

pedit: I don't think that's such an elaborate thought, though... what do you mean by saving the situation?

[Tanner]

Our IC's dead. There either isn't a doc or they're doing a terrible job.

[Tanner]

VOTE: popo

George, your point about getting jailed makes no sense.

[Tanner]

I think what George is saying is that for Popopopo to fake claim tracker and fabricating Night results but being 100% sure George wouldn’t call BS is to make sure George didn’t visit anyone via jailing him.

And you know the issue with that? George wouldn't know he was jailed. (Maybe if he was an investigative, he'd get no result, but he still couldn't know he was specifically jailed.) So even if George was being jailed by scum (and thus obviously going nowhere), PR!George would've still called bullshit on that.

[Tanner]

Don't you get that scum fakeclaiming a result doesn't actually have to be right about it? Imagine a scenario where popo is scum, and he said George didn't go anywhere because scum has a jailkeeper and they jailkept George. Let's say George is a doc and tried to heal someone (who wasn't attacked) on n1.

George still would've called bullshit on that because he'd know he went somewhere. It wouldn't matter that the *actual* result was correct. It would've been incorrect to George. Because George wouldn't have been told he was blocked.

I highly doubt this matters anyway, but you were missing my point.

Knightmare, what do you think about the Persi/popo situation?

pedit: i mean then the whole point of a massclaim gets kinda fucked if the protectives don't out
also the Tracker is CCed by Persivul claiming he hasn't gone anywhere

[Tanner]

You'd think we would have learned from the vig discussion that the mere mention of a role doesn't mean that role's in the game.

Agreed, but it was bugging me.

You realise that town should have some investigative power right?

No. Nothing guarantees there's a single investigative role in this game.

[Tanner]

(1) PD might be his partner
(2) persivul lynch leaves scum in a great position tomorrow

#1000

[Tanner]

No. Nothing guarantees there's a single investigative role in this game.

I suggest you look at completed mini normals.

Ok, I just did. Here's a list of all Mini Normals played in the last year and a half or so without a single Town investigative.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=82022
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=80818
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=80761
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=80157
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=80031
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=77101
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=76702
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=76139

[Tanner]

(1) PD might be his partner
(2) persivul lynch leaves scum in a great position tomorrow

#1000

That would be pretty terrible play, would lead to both of them getting lynched back to back if Persi is town.

Nobody claimed it was good play.

I think Tanner and Persivul are opposite alignments, I don't understand how he still thinks Persivul is town. He either knows he's town that's why he's pushing for a popo lynch(bussing) for town cred. He can't be scum with Persivul, wouldn't defend their buddy like this.

Do you think we're either T/S / S/T OR are you convinced I'm scum and Persi's Town? There's a difference there.

pedit: then I guess we disagree on what "investigative" means.

[Tanner]

Also I acknowledge that mavs's vote on Persi exists but I have genuinely no clue what to think about that.

[Tanner]

So if Persi flips scum then I'm a misguided Townie, but if he flips Town then I'm scum because I believed him? Get the hell outta here.

[Tanner]

Either popo planned to try to force a Persi lynch through (which I disagree would be as difficult as you make it out to be, considering someone that's townreading him died, people were already suspecting Persi, and popo was getting under fire anyway), or Persi and mavs planned this whole counterclaim a Miller confirm buddy by fakeclaiming Rolecop thing. Someone planned something.

[Tanner]

Honestly that mavs post just makes me more certain Persi/mavs are Town. I still believe they have to be the same alignment because lone 2 Millers with nothing to confirm either is bullshit, and scum!mavs is lowkey throwing if he's bussing here.

[Tanner]

mavs bussing Persi here would be a true clown fiesta though.

pedit: what do you mean "about Tanner"?

ppedit: Yeah, that's why popo was willing to jump on Knightmare. Makes perfect sense.

[Tanner]

Persi and mavs planned this whole counterclaim a Miller confirm buddy by fakeclaiming Rolecop thing. Someone planned something.

I don't believe that scum persi and scum mavs planned it. I think there's a scenario where Persivul is scum and mavs isn't.

Two Millers who would get lynched back to back without a Rolecop? lmao. Also Persi would've just let mavs eat rope Day 2.

Also, in that scum tracker scenario with the whole telling the truth about George but lying about you would clear George as there’s no reason scum tracker would actually track their scum buddy George.

I do not understand how you can be saying this.
If popooopo is scum, they either tracked

TOWN!george

to know they didn't do anything N1, or they tracked anywhere else, and they KNOW their

scumbuddy!george

didn't move.

I mean, they theoretically could've taken a blind guess, too.

The fact that farside was killed night 1 also points towards Persivul scum.

It ALSO points to popo being scum,

and to you being scum.

Those were her scumreads.

[Tanner]

mavs bussing Persi here would be a true clown fiesta though.

There are no redirects etc. in normals, and from what I've read I don't hink a normal can have a scum miller. mavs is 100% town.

I'm aware. That's why I keep repeating, the two of you must be of the same alignment. Which is why I don't get mavs's vote at all. (which is why I'm saying if you two actually are scum together and he's panic-bussing you right now I'll be laughing post-game.)

pedit: what do you mean "about Tanner"?

Knightmare saying you and I are opposite alignments. If you're deep scum well played, but assuming you're town, when i flip green Knightmare won't be on board with you. At this point I still hold by my scum team and think knightmare is bad town.

My issue there is that Knight can apparently see me as Town being fooled by scum!you, but can't see me as Town genuinely believing Town!you, when from Town!me's PoV, there's no visible difference between the two.

[Tanner]

@Prana

Knightmare dived on that bus so fast that he must have thought it was the last one out of the station.

Tanner is either scum with Persi, as he's been solidly backing Persi from the start, or has been very much misguided. Either way, Tanner needs to properly reasses his reads, because currently they're buggered.

Credit where credit is due, that bus line genuinely made me laugh.

What do you think about my point against Knightmare? That Knightmare can apparently see me/Persi as either T/S or S/T but not T/T?

@mavs
have you read my points about you/Persi being aligned? Do you really think you're the second Miller in a game with not only no means to confirm either Miller, but that also scum!Persi decided to "deepwolf" and save you as opposed to letting you get lynched tomorrow?

[Tanner]

Honestly anyone thinking me/Knightmare are S/S needs to learn how to read. That guy is either Town who's making a horrible leap in logic or scum trying to set me up after either popo/Persi die.

[Tanner]

@knightmare
Because (1) I trust that essentially a VT much more than I trust that Tracker claim, and (2) even if Persivul is scum and we lynched him today, popo is gonna get shot tonight. There's most likely no protectives since our IC died.

What about Prana's reads can't you understand? He's voting Persi, and he can apprently see me as scum. I'd say your reads are quite similar.

Comment on this?

My issue there is that Knight can apparently see me as Town being fooled by scum!you, but can't see me as Town genuinely believing Town!you, when from Town!me's PoV, there's no visible difference between the two.

[Tanner]

even if Persivul is scum and we lynched him today, popo is gonna get shot tonight. There's most likely no protectives since our IC died.

You could pretty much say the same in reverse. You dont think this confirms Persivul if Popo is scum?

Also, why do you trust a 1-shot claim over a PR claim?

I do think it confirms Persivul but Persivul is 1-shot ANYWAY so he wouldn't be able to get more results NO MATTER IF HE GETS SHOT OR NOT

Because popo is scummy as fuck and his claim is scummy as fuck? You know scum can fakeclaim? Why in the ever loving hell should I believe him? Becuasse he claimed ungated Tracker? Use your brain. Please the only thing I'm begging this Town please start using your brains. How is popo claiming an Ungated Tracker in any way shape or form more clearing or credible over Persi claiming 1-shot?

[Tanner]

@knightmare please stop ignoring this thank you.

Comment on this?

My issue there is that Knight can apparently see me as Town being fooled by scum!you, but can't see me as Town genuinely believing Town!you, when from Town!me's PoV, there's no visible difference between the two.

[Tanner]

So do you think me/Persi can be T/T?

[Tanner]

Food for thought: assume popopopo is scum fakeclaiming - how did they know georgebailey didn't go anywhere N1?

Hold it - scum tracker is a thing too, so no, the George association isn't a hard scum point. But George is scum nonetheless.

Thinking this through:

1. If popo flips scum tracker, we can't make conclusions from that on George's alignment

2.

If popo flips scum but not tracker, than George is almost certainly scum

, as popo could have just claimed a result on a dead person for N1.

Is that correct?

Not necessarily. I think it's still possible scum had an investigative that checked George Night 1 (such as a Vanilla Cop). It's also possible They took a blind guess. I don't know how

probable

any of these are though. Maybe I'm just tunneled on my George=VI read.

[Tanner]

@Tanner: If Persivul is scum, he knows I’m town and therefore I’m not fake claiming miller. So I could see why he would confirm miller without actually role copping me.

This being said, I will point out there are indeed three things that don’t fit a scum!Persivul narrative:
1) why he would come out of the blue and confirm I’m miller rather than letting me be potentially mislynched day 2
2) Persivul fake claiming Role Cop means that there is two millers with no way of confirming either
3) why would Persivul make the Eve kill being a claimed role cop attracting suspicion. That’s tracker bait at its finest.

I do think a Persivul flip will benefit town more than a Popopopo flip. The progression of reads on Popopo as point out by Knightmare is very interesting along with Popopopo’s 896. I don’t see scum!Popopopopo coming up with that to frame Persivul. That’s a townie post with townie motivation.

holy hell. It's not about actually rolecopping you or not. It's about whether Persi is scum or not. Obviously scum!him'd know you weren't lying.

Do you see my point regarding (1) and (2)? How unlikely it is? That both setup is literally designed to give scum two free mislynches AND that scum!persi decided to stop your mislynch for ??? reasons? Why are you voting Town over obvious (from your PoV) fakeclaiming scum?

[Tanner]

I'm not all in favor of massclaim because I'm not sure if it's necessary. Even if we agreed to go, we're never going to agree on an order. My preferred order would probably be

Prana - Ruby - Knight - George - Una - Tanner

Also I legit forgot Ruby was in this game and had to go to the OP to read who even is here.

pedit: apparently massclaiming would help because we can then figure out if the Tracker is lying or not. But honestly we should really just lynch him. Either he's scum, or both Persi/mavs are.

[Tanner]

Do you see my point regarding (1) and (2)? How unlikely it is? That both setup is literally designed to give scum two free mislynches AND that scum!persi decided to stop your mislynch for ??? reasons? Why are you voting Town over obvious (from your PoV) fakeclaiming scum?

mavs, how are you so confident that popo cannot me a scum Tracker but cannot realize this?

[Tanner]

To suggest popo is fakeclaiming, is to suggest they planned to fakeclaim tracker ahead of time, and breadcrumbed all day.

To suggest Persi is fakeclaiming, is to suggest mavs decided to counterclaim a Miller and then have his buddy claim Rolecop in order to save his ass tomorrow.

This work? We voting popo now? No? Oh.

[Tanner]

Scum!Persivul ALREADY knows if mavs is scum or town.

If mavs is town, Persivul fakeclaimed rolecop to buy credibility from mavs, knowing that later on, if people voted mavs it "confirms" Persivul, or if Persivul is lynched, people are suspicious of mavs.

do you understand what i'm trying to tell you about what Persivul being scum and mavs being town implies?

it implies both:
(1) that Persi decided to enter this claiming mess in order to play a "deepwolf" (even though it was obviusly gonna cause him problems down the line, as it is now) and save mavs from a mislynch, when multiple please have expressed they wanted to to lynch mavs if Drew flipped green.
(2) that the setup has two Millers with no way to confirm either who are then both a free mislynch as they counterclaim each other.

Do you see how both (1) and (2) are so unlikely?

[Tanner]

He let any possible protective role target him while they ignored the IC to get the kill on the IC, and only claimed 1X on day 3 to both stop him giving results, and stop it looking weird that he wasn't killed as a PR.

Honestly if the Town Protective was enough of a moron to protect a claimed Rolecop over a literal IC, then we deserve to lose, plain and simple.

[Tanner]

a 1x rolecop who confirms a Miller as town is a fucking negative. well now i've literally heard everything.

[Tanner]

a 1x rolecop who confirms a Miller as town is a fucking negative. well now i've literally heard everything.

You only read the first bit didn't you.

How the fuck is a 1x rolecop BENEFICIAL to town there? It does not confirm the miller to anyone EXCEPT itself. So all it does it trade itself for the miller at absolute best. That's it.

Also, Popo makes no sense as scum, or are you claiming Popo planned to claim Tracker all day?

"How is a Cop beneficial to Town? It only proves the role to itself, not to the whole Town. How are Masons beneficial to Town? Only themselves know the other is Town, not the whole Town." Are you hearing yourself right now?

Yes, that's what I'm claiming. Saying "Persi is lying" is such an amazing crumb for literally exactly Tracker. l m a o.

[Tanner]

I love how you skipped over this part. Oh well.

"How is a Cop beneficial to Town? It only proves the role to itself, not to the whole Town. How are Masons beneficial to Town? Only themselves know the other is Town, not the whole Town." Are you hearing yourself right now?

What does him backing you up have to do with anything? My point is that, sure, he's been voting Persi the whole day today but that really doesn't magically make his claim truthful. I've seen good scum start planning their fakeclaim from their first post. It doesn't prove anything.

[Tanner]

It's a 1-shot rolecop. Not every town PR has to be as strong as a Cop. a 1-shot Town Rolecop would exist here to confirm the Miller and nothing else. Literally nothing else. That's not negative. That's a positive because it turns what was gonna be a mislynch into something scum has to kill. I'm not claiming it's good setup design. but arguing that turning a Miller from a mislynch into a scumkill is a "negative" is insane.

Yes, town would obviously be stronger to have 1 miller and no rolecop. That means there's PRs elsewhere. There hasn't been a massclaim. You don't know the full power of the Town.

[Tanner]

So... there has to be power roles elsewhere, and YOU WANT TO LYNCH THE CLAIMED TRACKER?

Yes, because I don't believe for a second he's a Tracker.

You mean the rolecop that is currently alive because they took out the IC because any potential protective role was drawn away from it so protect the claimed power role, despite the fact it was a 1 shot, and would have been better dead N2 to confirm the miller over losing the IC?

What protective would EVER be drawn to a claimed rolecop over a

literal IC

?

[Tanner]

If a protective did that, that's not Persi's fault. Honestly i'm 100% blaming the protective in that scenario, whatever Persi's alignment is.

Also, I'm scum now? With Knightmare still? lmao.

[Tanner]

mavs, if I'm scum with Persi, he never ever claims Rolecop in order to save you. I don't allow it. He lets you hang without looking back. A free mislynch is infinitely more valuable than whatever this mess is, or whatever this mess was even before the Tracker claim. But whatever. If Persi's scum, he's playing me, Town was bad, I'll get lynched, what can you do.

You'll notice I was against massclaim, even in that very post. Of course I'm gonna put myself last. I'm Town. That's my preferred order.

Yeah, I sheeped my Townread from one person I was scumreading to another person I was scumreading in order to build a wagon that might actually go somewhere. Good job, you got me.

Honestly, with how easy Panda's wagon was, and how impossibly difficult popo's is, that should be telling in of itself.

[Tanner]

Yes, I believed Persivul is Town and yes I believed he's a full Rolecop. But I can tell the different between "something that I believe, and not necessarily other Townies" and "something that is literally mod confirmed". Eve was a literal mod confirmed IC. It doesn't matter I trusted Persivul to be Town. Protect the IC. Besides, if Persivul DOES end up getting killed, it (1) removes a possible mislynch, because reminder, not everyone trusts him, and (2) creates a second IC in the form of a cleared Miller.

You as a doc would've protected Persivul? That's plain and simple bad play imho.

[Tanner]

@Tanner: I still don’t have a great answer for you on that. My best guess is he would try to get me to lylo hoping I’d vote his way? But that’s flimsy cause allowing me to be lynched would definitely be easier than try to gain my favor. Idk what to tell you. My best guess is that him protecting me was hoping to gain my trust and be loyal to him throughout the game. All I can really say is that I believe Popopopo over Persivul. I’m actually really looking forward to reading the private scum thread once this game is over to see what transpired and what the plan was regardless if Perisvul is fake claiming cop or Popopopo is fake claiming tracker.

I don't understand. I don't understand how you of all people can believe popo over Persivul. You said yourself it doesn't make sense. *what* about popo's claim makes it so credible to you? You were voting popo before he claimed.

[Tanner]

UNVOTE: All

Is that string of garbage posts from popo really what changed your mind? Maybe I am wrong on you after all.

[Tanner]

Trust me, I wish I was.

I'm at my wit's end. If any of the "undecided" group want to chat, ping me. Otherwise I really don't think I have anything left unsaid.

[Tanner]

We're not lynching anyone until Ruby gets his ass here and starts talking. If this is gonna be my shit to clean up, at least give me the cleaning supplies.

Also I'd like to hear if Una had anything else to say now that both Persi and mavs have truly said what they had.

[Tanner]

persi has moved on to AtE, caught scum's last resort

i dont understand this shit. how can u vote me here? you of all people should know im telling the truth??? WTF

reminder to myself in future games that george bailey is a fucking VI

fuck off

or GB is persi's scum buddy in which case hes an even bigger moron than if he is town

[Tanner]

popo tracked GB, it's entirely plausible that George is scum and didn't submit the kill, and so went nowhere. So Tanner's post is just complete bollocks.

My post was making fun of popo for calling Persi "caught scum" for something he himself did a couple of posts ago. Not sure what you got from it.

Persivul flipping scum completely kills Tanner too, because as there has to be scum between me, popo and Tanner, and Persivul's scum flip proves popo was being truthful, and I could not be scum with Persivul, the only option in that grouping is Tanner.

Because it's impossible all 3 scum were on a Day 1 mislynch, yeah sure. (again, not disagreeing with your conclusion. but your method of getting there seems more like means to push a narrative as opposed to genuine VCA.)

I read your posts about Persi, and I disagree, I think Persi is Town. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. I think the same argument could be said about you not getting my posts and me having to repeat the same obvious points many times.

I get that I'm getting turbolynched tomorrow if Persi is Red and/or popo is Green. And that's fine. If that's the case obviously I've got this game upside-down and need to die. And I'm fine with that. No need to drill it in.

[Tanner]

popo is avoiding the thread to not give out associates towards his scumbuddies when he flips Red? Good catch, Prana!

[Tanner]

A quick PSA:

While lynching scum (e.g. popo) is obviously superior to lynching Town (e.g. Persi), no-lynching in this dayphase (most likely Day before lylo, two conflicting claims) is literal gamethrowing. We have 36 hours left. If the replacement doesn't come in reasonably soon, and if there's no extension, y'all who are not voting right now (i.e. Una, Knightmare, George) need to be ready to actually vote. So start making your minds up.

[Tanner]

George, there was a different problem with that too: there definitely is at least one Town investigative because one of popo and Persi are Town. I was pointing those setups out because of a hypothetical that didn't have much to do with the game anyway.

There doesn't HAVE to be a Cop/Rolecop just because we have a Miller. There also doesn't have to be a Cop either. Stop rolefishing.

[Tanner]

If there's a cop we don't have to risk the mislynch.

If there is a Cop who has either a clear or a guilty on either of Persi or popo and he

hasn't

come out yet, then he's a fucking moron. Otherwise, the Cop (which probably doesn't even exist, let's be honest) stays quiet, and we lynch one of the two. That is what's mechanically optimal ffs.

[Tanner]

Looks like he wants to be able to pin his eventual decision on mechanics, rather than reads.

Mechanics are a lot more tangible. You were both on the Red Panda wagon, and both would make the Farside NK. So I think reducing it down to "who's role seems likelier in this setup" is fair.

It's not, because of two reasons.
(1) you don't know the entire setup, and therefore can't say which role is more likely. (especially considering your knowledge of Normals.) And even if we massclaimed today (which we don't have time for anyway), ratio of scum to Town is too high to draw an accurate conclusion.
(2) that's assuming popo's and Persi's plays so far were equal. They weren't. Have you read any of popo's posts. Holy fuck.

Also, I have an interesting theory on why [town!Tanner and scum!Persi] are very very unlikely at this point. Do you think I'm Town? If so, I might be able to sell you on it.

[Tanner]

I don't understand.

Una, I don't understand how you can have the whole reasoning in 1192 and still think to vote Persi.

mavs, I don't understand how you can reason out the setup and claims in 1054 and still vote Persi.

I still think George is Town. Curse at me post game if I'm wrong, that's what I feel.

Una, if I gave you my side of why {town!Tanner + scum!mavs + scum!Persi} was unlikely (something you wonder in 1191, from which I got the impression you don't think all three of us are scum), would you consider voting popo?

[Tanner]

I'm about to fall asleep but I make the critical mistake of checking this game and now I'm back here

George, why are you falling for that. Prana is trying to (1) guilt trip you into voting Persi and (2) set you up as a mislynch once popo flips red by claiming you're "bussing" him. Like we've already discussed those points (about how scum!popo could've possibly known you didn't go anywhere n1 and what it means wrt your alignment) in great length before. Prana is now repeating them because it's convenient for him.

I know I said we need the Ruby slot to interact, but we're running out of time, and by the looks of it we won't be getting another extension. You said in your own post how scum!popo could've known that. For the love of all that is holy why are you unvoting him.

[Tanner]

Okay. I have not slept the entire night (again...). So you get this angry-ish rant that I will type up over my coffee.

Una, if I gave you my side of why {town!Tanner + scum!mavs + scum!Persi} was unlikely (something you wonder in 1191, from which I got the impression you don't think all three of us are scum), would you consider voting popo?

I asked this of Una twice, I got ignored. Whatever, I'm going to type it anyway so that tomorrow I can point at it and say "I fucking told you so."

Imagine a scenario in which

I (Tanner) am Town, but Persivul is scum

. You with me? Ok. Have you

seen

my play this Dayphase? Look me in the eyes and tell me that, if Persivul is ever to flip scum, I am not immediately lynched after him. You can't. Because it's true. If Persi is to ever, EVER flip scum in this game, I have signed my own death certificate and will fall down right after him like a domino.

You still with me? Let's carry on.

It is Day 3, most likely 3v6. Do you know what scum!Persi's partners need to do to secure a victory?
(1) Sheep me onto popo. Choose literally any of my countless posts where I'm yelling how popo is a scumfuck and jump on that wagon. popo gets lynched and flips green.
(2) Day 4 is 3v4, with Persivul as outed scum. He is obviously immediately lynched.
(3) Day 5, you have 2v3. And you have poor ol' Tanner. Tell me I don't get lynched there after Persivul flipped red. Because I do. I am the most free mislynch in that lylo imaginable. Which is also the last mislynch scum needs to win this game.

Now, if scum!Persi's partners can win this game so easily, why oh why aren't scum!Persi's partners jumping onto popo's wagon under the shield of Tanner who will be turned into the 5p lylo fallguy?

Because they don't exist.

(or in simple terms because I guess this Town needs it: because Persivul is not scum.)

tl;dr of the above rant: if you think I am Town, you need to vote popo.

bonus round!

Persivul and mavs pretty much have to be the same alignment (as i have very simply explained. multiple times.). While their play this Dayphase is obviously unaligned, there is this following fun interaction that points in the direction of "Persi/mavs are not S/S":

Spoiler: tell me that (1) scum!mavs mixes up his partner's avatar with mine OR that (2) scum!mavs ever bothers to fake this interaction.

This is really simple.

1. Two millers in a mini normal is extremely unlikely.
2. We had a miller claim.
3. We had a counter claim.
4. We lynch the first claim today.
5. If that lynch flips miller, we lynch the counter claim tomorrow.

Let's not overthink this.

This situation - a D1 counterclaim - is what you dream of as town. Then when you finally get it, people insist on screwing it up.

Tanner’s 273 & 274 are EXACTLY on point!

Tanner’s 273 & 274 are EXACTLY on point!

Who's?

Whoops...... sorry about that! You both have similar avatars. It was an honest mistake.

PERSIVUL’S 273 & 274 are on point. Thanks for the correction.

Lynching what is almost certainly scum day 1 is a blessing for town.

which brings us to my last point:

It is less than 24 hours left on the clock. We need a fucking lynch. Stop pussy-footing because you don't know whether you need to bus popo or not, be a man, and fucking VOTE.

[Tanner]

Deadline extended by 12 hours because the slot is still not filled. This is the last extension.

Mod ruined my mic drop.

Anyway, how much do y'all wanna bet that Ruby's slot is Town and scum is trying to drag this out to the point where we are eaten by apathy because some Town slots (mavs, most likely Una) are obviously wrong and won't vote for popo?

My point still stand btw. Start dropping votes.

Also @Knigtmare, considering I see you're online but you're not exactly posting, what do you think of my case above that explains why town!Tanner/scum!Persi is practically impossible, considering that was one of your (obviously made in good faith) hypotheses?