Mini Normal 2135 (Endgame)

[UnaBombaH]

Ummmmm, OK.. Weird random votes all around.
I think PranaDevil is scum.
VOTE: LucaBlight

[UnaBombaH]

I'd be interested in a thing I've never seen or done before.
Feel free to call me a dummy dumb-dumb if it suits you, but

what if we all agree that Wake doesn't vote for anyone today?

Hear me out - we obviously want his input and reads throughout the day as much as possible, simply because he is the only conf.town in the game so far.
But we won't be able to lynch scum 100% of the time D1 anyway, even if we had three conf.townies.
So my point is, that

whoever we end up lynching D1, and whatever their flip might end up being, the wagon will only consist of unconfirmed players.

Does that make sense for anyone?

[UnaBombaH]

No wait, does that make any sense?
Do we actually ABSOLUTELY want Wake to be in the final lynch-wagon?
If we lynch scum, it would be better to achieve the lynch without his vote, right?
Because we'd likely have more resistance from scum, and we would KNOW one townie would've been off the wagon?

But how does it work if we mislynch today, is it then actually worse?

[UnaBombaH]

Also - is Drew-Sta anything remotely similar to Nancy Drew?

[UnaBombaH]

OK, I do not see a world where we have two millers.
I did get some nasty flashbacks from a game where I was a Town-Universal Backup though, and I fought the "claimed Miller"-lynch until the end..
I believe that same game had a Doc and other useful stuff as well, and I got slapped with a Miller-tag starting from N2.

Anyhoo, I guess we are ready for the lynch now?
Don't think much of anything useful will come from the scumteam anymore, now that one of them is already caught red-handed?

[UnaBombaH]

Una, could you elaborate on 26?

Wait what, you were serious about this?

Pure 100% random goof-around vote. Nothing more.

[UnaBombaH]

I agree with Farside that UnaBomber's posts are beginning to smell. Their not being open to the possibility of two millers appears to me to be them accepting an easy way to lynch me to get to night.

Did I vote you? Nope, and you can bet yo sweet PM-flip that I didn't for a reason.
I'm all about discussion happening D1.
Something to chew on D2, and that's what we should be getting.

I was just interested in seeing who's willing to vote for you straight out the gate if they felt like it was an "OK" thing to do.

Haven't seen too many votes, and that might mean something in the long run.

[UnaBombaH]

VOTE: Tanner <---- this right is far more likely to yield a scumflip.

[UnaBombaH]

These 2 thoughts do not line up.

I give a statement that drew is "certainly an autolynch", but do not vote there?
And then later I tell you didn't vote just because I was more interested in seeing who would be happy to take that angle and push for a quick end for D1?
And you don't those two things line up in any way?
Can't tell you much else then, I guess.

[UnaBombaH]

Guess I shouldn't post anything then.
I honestly think that both of the Miller-claims need to be resolved one way or another, so unless we see a Vig-kill entering D2, I'd guess we have to lynch one of them there just to make sure we don't end in a MyLo/LyLo situation with so much wine on the table.

[UnaBombaH]

And in case that wasn't clear enough - not right away + not necessarily D1 either.
I'm off to bed now.
It's almost 4AM in here now, and I need to catch up on my sleep-schedule before monday.

[UnaBombaH]

I saw another person accuse Una of "double speaking", and like... are you people intentionally playing dumb?

I'm surprised you of all the players here apparently understood my motives.
Doesn't change the fact that I currently scumread you the most, and therefore it sort of makes me feel uneasy.

[UnaBombaH]

Oh, and to be absolutely clear - I'm not arrogant enought to say that people are stupid for not understanding me.
I know for a fact that if no one else gets me, the blame lies with me and my output.
But.
..nobody gets me.

[UnaBombaH]

I think Tanner has shown the ability to actually READ my posts and tried to understand my intentions.
Not sure if he's someone who has actually played with me before and therefore understands my wonky ways, or if he's just an observative player.

Anyhow, I think Tanners earlier posts where they used such tone-related words as "relaxed" and "interested" really pinged me.
They then got stuck on my very first RvS-post that had absolutely no deeper meaning to it.
Then the very hasty feel I got from their posts regarding the Drew-lynch didn't fit my read on them, ESPECIALLY since they backed down from that vote rather quickly.
I feel like they faked a concede on the matter, just to be able to unvote.
TBH, I really like a theory where both Drew and Tanner are scum.

Drew is 50/50 because of the claim, but I think Tanner is scum unrelated to Drew. (just pointing this out right away before someone jumps on me for not voting Drew. )

[UnaBombaH]

Sorry to hear that, Una. Do you wanna talk about it?

I believe it started when I was born as a second child to a family that would later be split and reforged into a family that would come to have as many as 7 children.
The need for attention always.......

[UnaBombaH]

Sorry, I had to.

[UnaBombaH]

Also Una buddying me is win win. He knows I’m not scum, and knows when I flip town he can claim he wasn’t part of the lynch.

This isn't the first time this has been brought up lately.
And this isn't the first time I'm going to say this - you will not ever see me expecting any towncredit for regocnizing a mislynch before it happens.
I do not believe in "towncredit" in that sense.

Furthermore - nowhere have I stated that I do not think you are not scum!
I'm fine with you being the lynch, no problemo.
I just don't feel like we need to be hasty about it at all.

You have already missed my very blatant reaction tests and made certain no town-benefit would ever come from them anyway, so I don't assume you'd understand my PoV anyway.

[UnaBombaH]

No the kid is weird.

I do not get offended easily, but it's still kind of funny when someone calls me a "kid".

[UnaBombaH]

Sorry I got the term from my co-worker. He tends to be older then everyone and he calls me kid. I just get the impression from your post that you are much younger then I am.

Like said, not offended.
I just find it funny how easily people get an impression from others, and it sticks and evolves independently.
I still have a lot of people calling me a "she" because of my nick, and apparently because I like to spam smileys.

[UnaBombaH]

2. We had a miller claim.
3. We had a counter claim.
4. We lynch the first claim today.

And I'd argue Miller is one of the few roles where we lynch the original claim first, always.

I can see why people are hesitant though, because it seems like a slippery slope where scum might get two easy mislynches on us just because the setup *could* be weird..

This situation - a D1 counterclaim - is what you dream of as town. Then when you finally get it, people insist on screwing it up.

Well, because the game has scum in it and they want to mess it up.
Simply the fact that I've been called scum for not rushing the lynch, and even Drew himself twisting my words into me "buddying him" makes me think he will likely flip scum.
I'm still glad we have been getting more content out of people though.

[UnaBombaH]

VI type? Sorry, it's been a while, so some acronyms lose me.

She feels like I'm a bad player. Or just stupid.
A Village Idiot, if you may. And those really do show up in Normal Games..
/s

[UnaBombaH]

Look into Una (to confirm if he's VI or not)

And I'm the one who feels like a newbie?

Nobody seems to understand what a reaction test is.
Nobody understands what it's about when we have basically a set lynch, and instead of us all just shutting right up and voting someone, I wanted to create conversation and slow the voting down (if possible).

Instead I get called scummy and noob-y while we have now started to see multiple posts with the same PoV and idea anyway.

We lynch Drew today, there's never going to be a better option D1 with a "CC'd" Miller on the board as well.
We absolutely NEED to resolve Mavsfan before a situation like LyLo as well, but assuming a scum flip from Drew we are not in a rush with him yet.
If we have a vig, that is always a good shot.
If we have a rolecop, that is a decent check to get a conftown too, etc etc.

The only noobie-thing I've done so far, has been assuming that people actually read my posts in a game.

[UnaBombaH]

Now that I think of it, being IC, I SHOULD NOT be voting.

Because you all already know my alignment, having me vote is one vote less from an u confirmed player to analyze.

Rather, you should have the unconfirmeds be voting so that we can better suss out who's who.

IF there's a situation where we're hours away from deadline and need a hammer I can help with that.

Glad to see you agree with my plan.
Although it's very likely the actual wagon on Drew might not yield as much information as most D1-lynched should, there's still a lot to analyze about what people have based their votes on.

[UnaBombaH]

I think any and all Miller-claims, unless cleared by a rolecop, ought to be lynched/vigged before it might be "too late".
Miller often implies Cop, and therefore we do not want our Cop to have to deal with the WIFOM.
Towny Millers claim at the start, to be unselfish and give the team an opportunity to get rid of them before it's too late. (and to make sure the potential cop doesn't out themself with a false guilty)

So unless I have a conf. on mavs tomorrow, I think I'm going to vote there at the end of the day 2.

Plus he's a good enough player - we will get a lot of good content from him before he's gone anyway.

[UnaBombaH]

Just to clarify,I wouldn't say I "agreed with your plan," seeing that I come to that conclusion on my own after only seeing one snippet about the topic.

...I wouldn't want anyone—including Scum—trying to create ties with the IC.

Fair enough I guess..

English isn't my first language, but I tried to differentiate "agree with" from "agree to". You happen to agree with me = we think the same way about a certain thing?
Had I said "agree to" it would mean that I somehow affected your judgement, and I didn't want to suggest anything like that.

I'm just honestly glad you feel like it would make sense to do it like that, so that no one can twist it in to a scum-agenda.

[UnaBombaH]

Definitely not a townleader here..
This just felt like a perfect opportunity to test something like this out, and I'm always interested in finding out what works mechanically and what doesn't.

I find it interesting that Luca feels like scumcasing me here..?

[UnaBombaH]

Farside considers it. Even mavs is now open to it. It took several days for them to get there though, which is what I believed should be the case. Tanner and Pers have not accepted it. I don't think Pers reaction is quite right (he's tunnelled) but it is consistent at least with what I'd expect.

Both George and Una accepted the situation without any bargaining. I expected to have to basically shovel for the remainder of D1. They accepted it with ease. Their response was highly unusual. I consider the situation an accidental reaction test.

I think you are trying so see something here that is just not there.
At least not for me.
I do not see a percentage for the likelihood of us not having 2 Millers vs having 2 Millers.
I just see two Miller-claims -> I always think Miller-claims ought to be lynched unless proven somehow -> we now have two playerslots that need to be lynched/vigged/confirmed.
Simple as that.

Now, I still do not think we have to Millers, and I STILL do think we lynch both of the claims (

almost

no matter what).
How is this stance of mine so fking difficult for some people to understand, and so easy to turn into a scummy agenda?
No idea, but I'm not backing down on it here.

[UnaBombaH]

Drew is 50/50 because of the claim, but I think Tanner is scum unrelated to Drew. (just pointing this out right away before someone jumps on me for not voting Drew. )

Do you mean that Drew/Mavs have an equal chance of being scum? Or are you factoring in the 2 Miller possibility?

OK, I'll make it as plain as I can, but it's likely a can of WIFOM anyway so who cares.

If Drew is actually a Miller and mavs is scum - WHY would mavs ever claim Miller without any pressure/prodding?

So if Drew is a Miller, I DO think mavs is actually town, and yes, a Miller as well.
So while I do not THINK we have two Millers here, Drew potentially flipping Miller here would mean to me that mavs is likely to be town.

NOW THIS DOES NOT REMOVE THE OBVIOUS FACT THAT I WOULD WANT MAVS LYNCHED/VIGGED/CONFIRMED JUST TO ELIMINATE THE WIFOM BEFORE LYLO.

Giving scum a free pass for a brilliant gambit is still giving scum a free pass.

Just to beat the horse a little more:

If Drew is actually scum, and just decided to claim Miller (for whatever reason?) we get a redflip which is nice, but I DO NOT SEE WHY SCUM WOULD THEMSELVES IN THE SPOTLIGHT LIKE THIS EITHER.

And yet again, Drews alignment doesn't necessarily mean anything for mavs alignment.
WIFOM has it going both ways - he's either a scumbuddy and they tried to make a silly gambit to get mavs into lategame "for free", but come on... So we lynch them both in this scenario as well.
Only thing though, and I believe mavs already said this, IF we get a red flip from drew, I can see a scenario where mavs isn't lynched immediately D2, but more like D3/D4 if it comes to that.

So you see what I have here?
A game where I do not think 2 Millers is a "fair" or likely thing for town to have, but also a game where I do not see WHY both of them would claim Miller here.
Obviously Drews claim is independent of mavs claim because that came after, so I guess the most "sensible" solution is still "Drew is scum who tried to do a weird gambit, and we had a Miller to actually counter it."
Ech anyway.

[UnaBombaH]

I'm struggling to see what town gains from that tbh. Maybe if Una could talk more about what kind of reactions he was expecting and what the lack of reaction actually means in this context, then it'd be helpful?

I believe it yielded as much information as it could have, MINUS everything.
Meaning that so many people got busy crucifying me for that post that no one jumped on hastily voting for Drew.
Guess that is information in itself then?
Drew is scum, so scum did not consider this a worthy fast lynch?
Dunno. If I'd be scum here with Drew, I'd take that as a permission to bus with the might of Zeus.

Anyhoooooooooooooooooooo....
I think we still lynch Drew today, no matter what.
And getting a red flip would now make those reactions some interesting reading material.

A green flip would make me think that scum were either already on her, or playing a completely different game.
And in that case, I guess we didn't get much out of it?

[UnaBombaH]

I see. I'd be willing to hear about that, especially considering Una keeps refusing to talk to me.

Guess I need to ISO you backwards then?

Also, the longer Una deliberately continues to ignore me, the more annoyed I'm getting, but I'm not sure if I can in good faith call that scummy.

OK, apparently it was before this as well...

You can call me observative.

Yes, they were early posts. Tone is generally what I go for early.
Your very first post called Prada scum right after Prada did things that could be analysed as AI. I thought you actually saw something.
What does "that didn't fit your read on me" mean?

Also, how is Drew just 50/50?

pedit: is that true? I'm an only child, I can't imagine that honestly.

Ah, now I see.
Sorry to have missed this for so long..

[UnaBombaH]

Una, I've responded in 229. You don't want to talk?

There was also this post, for the record.

Yeah, I saw this too.

...so....whats up?

[UnaBombaH]

Ok Ok, I'm really going to answer you.

Your very first post called Prada scum right after Prada did things that could be analysed as AI. I thought you actually saw something.

Sorry to disappoint you there.
Whenever I do one of those early posts, it's just me being a silly goose.

What does "that didn't fit your read on me" mean?

Well, what I said in context was this:

Then the very hasty feel I got from their posts regarding the Drew-lynch didn't fit my read on them, ESPECIALLY since they backed down from that vote rather quickly.
I feel like they faked a concede on the matter, just to be able to unvote.
TBH, I really like a theory where both Drew and Tanner are scum.

My early read on you was maybe a bit "try-hard", maybe a bit "newbie"? (not trying to insult you, just the vibe I got)
So when you went for the "easy" vote on Drew I was a bit surprised because I assumed you would be the type to actually be paranoid all around it and look for alternatives first - vote later.
Ok, I accepted your vote, but then it wasn't long after that you already unvoted, and started to do more of what I assumed you'd do from the start. Make any sense so far?
I could see a reality where you are scum, and got too excited for the chance to do some "acting".
You let people "convince you", and you feel like once enough posturing has happened you get your room to unvote.
Leading to an interesting scenario where you are actually scum with Drew as well, but you work as a solo-scum here too, who wanted to benefit from the situation.

Also, how is Drew just 50/50?

He's either a Miller or he's scum?
That is what the Miller-claim does - it creates the WIFOM that always comes with the role, and even when played "correctly" you should always be lynched.
No really, if Drew flips town!Miller, even mavs is still 50/50.
Because he would then LIKELY be the second Miller he claims to be, BUT he could also be a scummie who decided to go balls to the wall.
(If this is the case, I am going to be in his fanclub until the end of time. )

[UnaBombaH]

Well, here goes nothing.
VOTE: Drew-Sta

Were you really a Miller?

[UnaBombaH]

And just in case - my only good gut-scumread is Tanner.
Luca is acting not-obviously-towny in my eyes, but that can change quickly in a day or a half, so that isn't a very strong read yet.

And based on what drew flips, I really still think mavs has to go.
Either D2, or at least soon after.
Don't delay it until MyLo/LyLo even if it's a scary thought to go two mislynches deep in the start - towns have bounced back from worse - but having a claimed Miller in a potential 2-Miller setup just hanging around is way too much WIFOM for anyone to really solve a LyLo.

[UnaBombaH]

Yes, yes I was.

Enjoy peeps! I look forward to watching this pan out.

Then quickly, if you may, give me your two sturdiest townreads for now?

[UnaBombaH]

OK, that's a bit of a surprise for me.

[UnaBombaH]

Pers has some merit in what he said. I think he just couldn't consider that I would be miller and what that potentially mean - scum CC'ing or two-miller game.

I think Pers managed to put himself in a position where he either really tunneled on an interpretation, or he's scum abusing an easy push.
And I want to make this clear - I'm not saying he's scum for how he played this gameday, but he's not very towny either.
I think he has somehow managed to say very few AI things.

Had you really been scum, I would've had another read on all of that, but I guess I can't get it my way then.

[UnaBombaH]

Put Mav's under pressure. He needs to be critically looked at. I'm not convinced he's scum, but it's quite possible.

This I fully agree with.
If mavs really went for a Miller-CC as scum here, he's a fking legend.

....but deserves rope all the same.

[UnaBombaH]

Well, if that's the case then I'm about to look silly.

[UnaBombaH]

New theory, with UnaBombaH trying to render Wake88 useless, scum doesn’t need to kill Wake88 at all.

Wait what?
How am I trying to render him useless????

On the contrary - I'm trying to get the most out of him.
It's up to him to be more active and vocal as the only conf.town in the game.
I'm just advocating for him to not vote on the wagons, and rather lead with his words over his votes.

[UnaBombaH]

Mavs and persivul are either super confirmed PR, or literally the scumteam.

This is correct.

[UnaBombaH]

Because why? mavs otherwise would've been a free mislynch. why would scum!Persi stand up, claim Rolecop, throw away a mislynch option, and then screw himself further because he's gonna get under fire once a few Days pass and he doesn't get killed?

Well this isn't exactly true tbh.
Throwing away a free mislynch vs basically townbinning themselves in the eyes of everyone...

[UnaBombaH]

Scum reads: red panda, luca, knight/persivul.

Im more confident of my rd scum read. I may expect better from persivul so my scum read maybe bias.

This makes me think scum!Pers - no matter mavs' alignment.
Lucas tone also felt off when they were doing that out of the ordinary recap-focus on me D1.
I believe farside called at least one of them out correctly.

[UnaBombaH]

I read that yeah.
But if NEITHER of them gets lynched today, and we make another mislynch...think of the amount of WIFOM we have to deal with.

Do we lynch the claimed Miller, OR the one who confirmed that role?
Well, obviously Pers flipping town!RoleCop would confirm mavs as well, but it doesn't work the other way around.
Also - Pers is the one who might be able to retrieve more results for us, unlike mavs.

So no, IMO for Pers to be "townbinned" it doesn't require for him to yield any more results to us.
He can claim "no result" tomorrow, and it's still just as likely that he is speaking the truth, as it is for scum to have a roleblocker.
WINE ALL AROUND.

[UnaBombaH]

Lucas tone also felt off when they were doing that out of the ordinary recap-focus on me D1.

OH wow. Either you did that very quickly, or you really had the same thought as I did! O_O

@Luca: your 406, 406, 410, and 415 ALL throw shade on UnaBombaH but you don’t vote him. Why not? Your only vote came via RVS and that’s where you left it. I understand you were catching up but aside from UnaBombaH (who you don’t decide to vote) you really don’t offer much. This strikes me as scum trying to fence sit.

VOTE: Luca Blight

[UnaBombaH]

But you just said they have the same alignment?

Well, I said he was correct when he was making that completely 50/50 non-committal assessment of the situation. My point being that the situation is full of "either-or".

Also can it not literally be Red Panda? Why is everyone ignoring Panda?

Sure it can.

[UnaBombaH]

This just got spicy.
Gotta go to sleep now, it's over 1AM here.

[UnaBombaH]

Oh, before I got sleep.
My solve as of right now, little bit of vodka and tiredness involved?

Luca Blight - Tanner - Persivul.

Goodnight everyone.

[UnaBombaH]

I don't know maybe I'm going with my guy here. But I still feel this is scum
VOTE: UnabombaH

Something about them and their iso in day1 just didn't rub me the right way I can have more later.

I have seen worse scumclaims than this, but it has been a while.

[UnaBombaH]

Persi and mavs are of the same alignment, they're de facto cleared Town, and if (and that's a really really big if) they're scum, it will be obvious later once actual Town PRs start coming to light.

I just want to make this ABSOLUTELY CLEAR - this is not 100% true 100% of the time!!

Persivul could be a scum going for the towncred when mavs flips.
Them "clearing" mavs isn't as heavy a commitment for scum as some might imply.

When there are only Vanillas left, RoleCops do nothing, so if Persivul makes it through a 1-2 days more, we are put to that exact same WIFOM situation I've been hinting at.

[UnaBombaH]

Town having two Millers with no ways to confirm either one of them (i.e. - without something like a Rolecop) cannot be Normal as it basically gives scum 2 free mislynches.

Well this is already quite a controversial situation to consider, if consulting the wiki...

The foremost use of Millers is to weaken the power of a Cop.

+

Less commonly, a Miller may be put into a game without a Cop, as a red herring.

+

Self-aware Millers may also be considered Named Townies, as there is usually not more than one in a setup.

So, considering two Millers and no cop would sort of be a double-bummer for town anyway.

[UnaBombaH]

This is very much true.

It's both one alignment or the other.

No. NO, NO NO.
Do not lock this as a fact for everyone.
If mavs is killed and flips Miller, Persivul is not town for that alone.
We have to focus on reading plays alone when it comes to these two slots.
And if they are unable to do a convincing enough towntell, we really need to defuse the situation sooner rather than too late.

[UnaBombaH]

I think whatever happens today, if we have a cop, they have to, without fail, investigate Persivul.

Again, a heavy,

heavy NO to this

. Such an idiotic thing to suggets.

What would you assume the result would be, eh?
Maybe "guilty" to a Cop, eh?
THE EXACT SAME RESULT A COP WOULD GET FROM A MILLER AND SCUM ALIKE?

[UnaBombaH]

Oh, my bad.
WHAT AN IDIOTIC THING FROM THE SHORT-CIRCUIT ON.

Checking Persivul is absolutely fine.

SORRY

[UnaBombaH]

..AND OF COURSE THIS^^ HAS TO BE ON A DIFFERENT PAGE JUST TO MAKE SURE MY APOLOGY ISN'T RIGHT THERE BELOW MY DERPAGE.

[UnaBombaH]

Also my phone apparently mixes up "from me to" with "from the".
Interesting autocorrect.

I think the hedgehog actually said the absolutely brilliant thing, that Persivul should be the first target for out Cop if we do have one.
We get a clear on Persivul -> we get a clear on mavs -> we are actually potentially 4 locktowns ahead!
GJ Prana! (I'm not at all feeling guilty for calling you out on a mistake you didn't do... )

[UnaBombaH]

All the mechanical clears aside, and only considering reads or the lack of them....Luca Blight/Tanner/Panda/George?

Tanner is a gutread I cannot shake.
There's something off with the slot, despite all their valiant, good efforts.

[UnaBombaH]

Scum reads: red panda, luca, knight/persivul.

I just read farside's ISO. I see no PR crumbs, so she was presumably killed for her reads. She scum read saladman. He was replaced by panda. She scum read panda and said she was most confident in that read. Panda looks really bad on page 23.

VOTE: Red Panda

I'm fine with this one as well tbh, but Luca replacing out doesn't help my read on him at all.
Yeayea, NAI and all that jazz, but I'd hope town!Luca would've been motivated to solve in a setup like this.

[UnaBombaH]

These three have all managed to put up a lot of words without really saying much at all. Not the Una I'm used to.

I'm biding my time.
I actually have a good feeling about this game.

[UnaBombaH]

Una #125 suggesting "we are ready for the lynch now" still rubs me up the wrong way. Less talking is good for scum, and bad for town.

Despite me making that fumble earlier, I get legitimately mad when reading this again and again.
Check my actions around that post.
I. DID. NOT. VOTE. THERE. AT. THAT. TIME.
I did it on purpose. I tried to instigate and reaction-test.
I'm done saying this over and over, but I refuse to let people storytell things about my actions without at least trying to rectify these false narratives.
You can try to force a scummy agenda behind my actions there, but I'd argue that you can't say I was being inconsistent in any way.

And the same applies to me starting the discussion about Wake not voting anywhere.
You can try and paint me scum for it, but realize that there were others who either claim to have come up with the idea themselves as well, or more or less agreed with my sentiments.
Even our IC, and they are a confirmed townie ffs, thought he shouldn't vote.

Prana is spending too much energy on my posts. The same way that Luca was.
I'm either a designated mislynch for scummies at some point down the road, or they are lost with their analytics.

[UnaBombaH]

I don't know if you've noticed, but if the setup is 2 Millers + Rolecop, that is literally what it was designed to do. It was designed to save the second mislynch that otherwise would've been guaranteed.

Setups do not work like this btw, at least not always or by design.
There are mechanics that are supposed to synergize, sure, but automatically assuming that the RC-claim is true simply because we have two claimed Millers is a dangerous path.
You should then almost assume we have a Cop somewhere, because Millers are supposed to be there to weaken the Cop.
Or you COULD still keep an open mind about the fact that mavs could be fakeclaiming Miller as scum, and Persivul claiming RC is just there to "complete" the gambit.
I just finished a game (that I can finally rant about), where one scum one went rogue

DAY 2

and claimed a guilty on one of their buddies, leading to the lynch of the other D3.
They then surfed their way to a victory in 3man LyLo, because SURELY no one would be THAT stupid to fakeclaim D2 and out their buddies, right?

The game went silly in many other ways as well, but the main point is that silly and ballsy gambits happen.
And here we have a situation where we have 0-2 liars depending on almost nothing.
And no ways to solve it other than seeing a flip.
AND Persivuls actions D1 fit both - a rolecop wanting to get a result rather than seeing a Vig kill their target, but also a scumbuddy wanting to protect the gambit.

[UnaBombaH]

It just hit me btw.
Assume Persivul really checked mavs.
He risked the fact that there WAS indeed a Vig, and his result would've been for nothing.

[UnaBombaH]

Well, he did ask the possible vig not to shoot in 241

..and I told people multiple times why I did what I did D1, and I still get called scummy for it, so if I were a Rolecop here, I wouldn't count on it.

Also, what I mean by this is that scum!Persivul would risk nothing by simply waiting to see whether mavs dies at night or not, and then choosing to do this part of the gambit if mavs lives.
Now, the still_assumed_Vig (gated by even nights / maybe starting N2 etc etc) would have no reason to shoot mavs N3 onwards.
And consider this: persivul is just postponing the mavs-flip, and actually making no difference to mavs' alignment if they ever flip scum themself.
So if we ever decided to lynch pers and he flips scum!Rolecop, mavs is still 50/50 based on the claims alone!

The only thing I'm pondering, is that would scum!Pers claim rolecop here without knowing whether he'd be counterclaimed or not?

[UnaBombaH]

If this setup only has one Miller, and mavs+pers are scum together, then it would make some sense.
But only if they wanted to do it like this all along.
Basically the biggest risk was that mavs would've been lynched D1/shot by a Vig N1, because persivul obv. didn't claim before he saw how D2 would start.

[UnaBombaH]

I'm getting caught up in theories here, sorry about that.

I still think the Luca-slot would be the most reasonable lynch unless they blow me away with their content today.
Panda and Tanner are next in line for me, but I'd rather want Panda today for being a silly goose.

[UnaBombaH]

@Una: 225 is the closest you come saying why you suspect Tanner but that strikes me based more off comments Tanner made during RVS. Surely your read has developed more than that. The only other thing I could think of is an OMGUS after his 67 and follow up in 132 asking for an explanation about a joke RVS post.

I've been calling my Tanner-read a gutread all this time mainly because it started as such.
Guess it would be more fair to call it a paranoia-tunnel now?
I have a feeling about that slot I'm unable to shake, and therefore call it a scumread.
But hey, I'm not actively pushing it because I can identify the problem, and I'd rather focus on slots like RedPanda &Co.

I'm catching up from here, so some spam incoming.
Apologies in advance.

[UnaBombaH]

As much as I like Tanner I still think they are scum. But what do I know And this is just reading their past 10 posts.
Yes I'm selectively choosing people as I go.

VOTE: Tanner

Im not sold on pop as there is just a few questions I have.

Really?
From calling me scum, to voting the slot I have pretty much exclusively called out from the start?
Not weird at all.

Persivul
Mavs
Riabi
popop
Knightmare
George
Prana
Una
Tanner

Can't believe you provided this though.
Especially considering that Tanner is not on the list? You know, the one you just at the end of a lengthy post?
I'm in the lowest position, and Tanner is nowhere to be seen..
VOTE: Red Panda

wow clearly no one appreciates my contributions

Considering that you're not in our game...why should we?

Simple, yet this is enough to get the point across?

Hectic has to be someones alt, right?

[UnaBombaH]

@Una: Panda’s list in 677 I think is in order of town to scum. Tanner is below you on that list. And the bottom I’m guessing are the people she’s suspecting the most hence you and Tanner both at the bottom. Or at least that’s how I read it. Panda: feel free to correct me on that.

Yeah, I'm starting to get worried.
I literally quoted that list and didn't see Tanner there.

I'm sorry guys, apparently there's something wrong with my head this game.

[UnaBombaH]

UNVOTE:

Guess I'll do a full reread during work tomorrow.

[UnaBombaH]

That means scum is you, George, and 1 of Panda/Luca.

The best thing about Persivul here is that our reads are rather similar.
At least the big picture.

Can I hammer Panda now, or we still flipflopping elsewhere?

[UnaBombaH]

19 hours.
Gonna need some quick moves from Panda if they have anything to say.

Final reads etc.
If they claim a PR this late they can just blame themselves for that IMO.
We do not want to risk a no lynch.

[UnaBombaH]

Panda, a claim would be useful right now.

No, claim is basically too late now.
Reads, all potential confirmed info, anything like that is what we need now.
Although I guess reads are going to be "scum in UnaB/Tanner".

[UnaBombaH]

Panda was an encryptor, I have no clue what that means, does that mean we have a neighborizer on our hands, or another role that allows people to speak? Because without something to let Panda talk to someone, the role was utterly pointless...

Not necessarily true..?
Also, can't you see the potential "theme" taking shape in the game?
Immediately when I saw that Panda-flip I got a vibe like "townies you'd sort of want dead, but are still town"..
Miller, and potentially even double-Miller, and now an encryptor to potentially provide a false-guilty to the rolecop.

A notable quote from the Normal Game guidelines:

In Normal Games on mafiascum.net, Mafia do not need an Encryptor to have daytalk, but if they have it without an Encryptor it needs to be announced beforehand.

Meaning that there's either a second Encryptor for scum separately, or they do not have daytalk.

It also does not strike me inherently as an anti-town role. It wasn't there so the scum could talk, as Panda had to be in whatever chat it was.

Like said, a "false guilty" for the assumed Rolecop. That flip makes me think that we really NEED to have a real cop somewhere too, or we are hopelessly outmatched by all this WIFOM-negative utility..

This should also make everyone realise the rolecop is not required to be town. Anyone believing it just "because we have two millers" needs to step back and take a rethink.

Interestingly I have it totally backwards.
I was absolutely paranoid and leaning towards it being a scum-gambit yesterday, but now believe it to be more likely true with that flip.
Or can you give a meaning for Pandas role outside of providing a "false guilty"?

[UnaBombaH]

Full disclosure: I was 1X. I withheld that yesterday to see if scum would target me N2.

Ok, this I do not believe for a second. But I'll give you a pass for now.

[UnaBombaH]

Or can you give a meaning for Pandas role outside of providing a "false guilty"?

Pamda's role wouldn't be a false guilty for a Rolecop. Panda was Ascetic. A Rolecop would've returned "no result".

Color me green and call me a Kiwi.
You are right.

[UnaBombaH]

But like...what the hell was the meaning of their role then?
They shouldn't claim it as to not stir the pot in a negative way, so they couldn't even try and become a "named townie" or whatever.
They couldn't be investigated for a clear.
They couldn't be neighborized because of the ascetic either, right?
They were just a role that meant nothing, and provided nothing?

Now I'm actually really confused.

[UnaBombaH]

Three goons, and all town has for utility is a 1-shot rolecop - to potentially negate at least one of the negative-utility roles?
Dunno where this site stands on balance regarding the "Mountainous" setup (all Vanillas on both sides).

[UnaBombaH]

OK, guess I don't need much else in terms of this "reaction test". (see? this time I won't drag it any longer. You all have scarred me permanently.)
We definitely flip Persivul today now that he has claimed a 1-shot modifier.
His flip either confirms mavsfan, or finally gives us a red flip.

And on a red flip, I really want to townbin popopopo and Tanner.

[UnaBombaH]

Scum would have absolutely no reason to bus here.
They have a solid foundation for a game full on 50/50 slots and weird claims.
Only thing that could confirm Persivul now is another roleclaim, and for all we know, even that could be scum fakeclaiming.

Scum wants to go into a LyLo where we are forced to choose a lynch between slots like Riabi (hasn't been around much at all), and a claimed Rolecop.
I'd prefer if we try to resolve two slots at once today.

There's another angle to this all, but I do not want to say it yet, as it might affect our remaining PR. (I think I have a good hunch)

[UnaBombaH]

The slot that replaced into Luca Blight is actually popopopopopopo?
Might have to revisit my previous statement about a townbin.

[UnaBombaH]

There's a chain.

[UnaBombaH]

WTF happened there mavs?
You had talked about fakeclaiming a bulletproof instead of an 1x rolecop?

[UnaBombaH]

I kid because I love.

[UnaBombaH]

Sorry for the absence.
I'm catching up during the next ~8h time period (work , but finally a more quiet day I hope)

I think I'm caught up to the point where Ruby joined the game.

[UnaBombaH]

That's interesting too. Since the NK was the IC over the PR, would that mean the IC was killed for her reads?

This reads to me like scum trying to build a narrative.
The IC is the one kill that might be done just for the sake of eliminating a conf.town.
Why they didn't do it N1 was probably just because Wake didn't propose any threat to the scumteam with their actions D1.
Eve was more active, and that already might be reason enough for scum to eliminate them BEFORE having even one conf.town in a limited pool of players could affect the voting and eliminate certain narratives from being told by scum.

[UnaBombaH]

I was more confident in that scum team a couple days ago, but Una and Riabi going quiet has me concerned.

Yea, I'm really sorry for this.
I work better as a townie when the game moves a bit faster so that I can do a daily "mini-catchup" of sorts.
I didn't find much to comment on few days ago, and sort of forgot the whole game because I was exhausted from work and bored at the time as well.
I know, not a fair thing to say when I'm not providing original content myself either.

I feel like doing a recap on this whole D2, maybe even the whole game, after getting todays flip will likely give me a better comprehension of the game.
It's just that I need more data, and less WIFOM based on claims.

[UnaBombaH]

I've been giving Una a pass based on these posts. I see them as hints that he's a PR. But, we haven't received any results, and he's gone quiet.

@mavs: I generally scum read individually. I'm not great with groupings. How do things look if you replace George with Una?

That's not how I'd hint at being a PR.
You'd find a rant/ramble about something that has happened in my personal life, and I'd hide a crumb of my role there.
I guess I'm not doing that anymore in the future though, since people don't seem to believe those claims anyway. Or the roles don't work like they should (#stillSalty)

I was seriously trying to not make too much effort just to avoid being the NK tonight, since I really believe I can be at my best D4 after todays flip.

[UnaBombaH]

i agree with prana that persi is extremely sus. my scumread on prana from yesterday i think was more of a playstlye thing, as the setup spec has continued.

im still down to get on knightmare but i really dont see why we dont lynch persi today. he lied about his claim, and checking the miller with a 1 shot just seems dumb to me. (and not true)

Would scum try and go for a PR though? If Prana and popo are scum together, trying to vote out Persi seems like a gambit move. Even if still a 1-shot, doesn't seem like the safe scum move.

This is, yet again, nothing but trying to paint a narrative.
2nd post from you that I've quoted withing a short time frame, and they both have this flavor to them.

[UnaBombaH]

Yeah, it made sense to give him some time, especially with no shortage of scummier candidates. But if popo flips red and mavs is correct (I'll review his argument later) that that rules out George, then I think we need to consider Una. I'll do some meta on him when I have time.

..and I'm afraid this seems like you are digging at my feet - just in case I need to be mislynched tomorrow.
If you are town here, you should realize where your own claim puts you in the grand scheme of things.
You'd also be at least a little worried of being NK'd, no? Yet you seem quite confident that you will wake up to D4..

[UnaBombaH]

And since we are outing suspicions about PRs - I thought Persivul might've actually been a 2-shot / odd-night RoleCop at the start of the day.
With that 1-shot claim they have effectively made it so that we can't expect any more results from them, and they are also "protected" from a nightkill simply because their result means nothing unless they die.
They claim to have confirmed a role that does nothing, and could potentially be just a scum hiding under a role that can't be confirmed.
Town!RoleCop would've said that to make sure they get a result tonight, but somehow I do not see that in their gameplay right now.

I'll have to do some stream of consciousness to sort this whole thing for myself.

[UnaBombaH]

im at l-1?

gonna claim then

tracker - luca tracked georgebailey night 1, he didnt go anywhere

i tracked persivul last night, he visited eve

maybe i shoulda claimed at the start of day but i wanted to keep my pr secret

What?
If this is true then it's 10/10.

[UnaBombaH]

I think PD is unlikely to be scum then, Tanner too looks like he was being taken for a ride by scum! Persi rather than him hard TRing his buddy.

Don't go this deep into it yet.
I believe the scumteam has been going for a gambit-y playstyle the whole game, so assuming they'd distance at all in a game like this might be a dangerous thought.

[UnaBombaH]

Because i'm trying to imagine a scenario where Persivul is town and he visits Eve.

VOTE: Persivul

DUDE, he claimed rolecop, you think Town rolecop visits an IC?

This is actually something worth pondering about.

DO NOT VOTE PERSIVUL TO THE ROPE YET.

[UnaBombaH]

Why the fuck would a claimed role cop make the night kill? Seems like obvious tracker bait. If Perisvul is scum, weird decision.

Intent to vote Persivul but don’t want a self-hammer in this situation.

Prana would be cleared (my bad Prana...).

THIS.
Exactly this.
Think about it folks - if Persivul were to be a scum!RoleCop, he would never check OR kill Eve here.
They already knew Eves role since it was globally revealed, and they'd want a result from Persivul.
So someone else would've done the killing anyway since Eve was the target.

[UnaBombaH]

Prana was on Percivul day 1. And day 2. In fact, the day 1 push I find hard to believe would be SvS in that situation.

You make a GREAT point about why a townie role would be targeting the IC. The only thing I could possibly imagine is a watcher/voyeur (the one where you see who visited that person during the night) on Eve. And that would make sense as Eve was the most likely to be targeted.

Even with this being the case and Eve being dead, if Popopopo is the tracker and targeted Percivul, Percivul would’ve seen who targeted Eve and therefore should be pushing that person as scum and would’ve likely claimed in that scenario.

No way town!Percivul targeted Eve last night and is now pushing Popopopo if Popopo’s telling the truth about being the tracker.

If mavs isn't town here, I'm not sure I can ever play Mafia on this site again.

[UnaBombaH]

OK, so the thing I was going to try and tackle anyway, was the fact that Persivul claimed RoleCop before anyone else claimed anything. (obv. Millers aside)
The only ways I could see him making that bold of a move

as scum

:

1)

The scumteam had information about this game absolutely not having a RoleCop. (meaning there wouldn't be a counterclaim)
This way Persivul could've "dared" to claim RoleCop and "solidify" it by confirming mavs as town to the rest of us.
Scum would be able to do it even without checking mavs since they'd know he is town, and town!mavs would've had no reason to counterclaim Drew D1.
If scum knew there'd be no Rolecop in the game, they would most definitely go for a gambit involving that role.

2)

Persivul is in fact a scum!RoleCop, and was willing to go 1on1 with someone counterclaiming him.
This would also make more sense AFTER scumteam had realized there was in fact two Millers in the setup.
Something like "there are two Millers, so obviously there can be two RC's too."

This point has the problem of popopopos claimed result from N2 though.

No matter if scum!Rolecop-Persivul is 1-shot or not, I do not see a world where they'd use their only shot on mavs, AND THEN DO THE KILL N2.
They'd risk all the Trackers and Voyeurs in the world who'd most likely be targeting

EITHER THE CLAIMED ROLECOP OR THE CONFIRMED IC.

After "getting away with it" the day before, you really think the scumteam would risk their out-in-the-open frontline, the one doing a fakeclaim-gambit?
And no, it wouldn't be "WIFOM" - it would simply be stupid IMO.

If neither of the above is true, I do not see how/why scum!Persivul would decide to put themself in the front.
They'd know their claim gives them no protection in the long run, and especially now since they have claimed a 1-shot role.
And they would've risked being counterclaimed straight away, as early as D2.
Yet again, NOT KNOWING ANYTHING ABOUT THE SETUP AND ROLES YET?
Hell, I stand by my assessment that a RoleCop in itself makes sense in a setup where there'd be two Millers.
Just not sure whether it should be only 1-shot..

[UnaBombaH]

BTW, IF THERE'S A COUNTERCLAIM TO POPOPOPOPPOPO, I DO NOT THINK YOU SHOULD OUT YOURSELF HERE.

There's a good case for popopopopo still being todays lynch over Persivul, and I want to hear from him/mavs before I say why.

[UnaBombaH]

Persivul could just be goon, we don't know if he actually is a role cop. As to why he could be doing the kill, because his partners are scummier than him and maybe they were expecting TPRs to target them?

His buddies scummier than him?
I do not see your PoV here.
If Persivul were to commit to a fakeclaim-gambit D2, no matter if he was "flying solo" or not, he would still never make the kill N2 if the target was going to be the IC.
His teammates would make the kill, because Persivul is the only one taking the "heat" right now.
And he DEFINITELY wouldn't commit the kill and then enter this gameday by claiming a 1-shot modifier.
He would've claimed odd-night or some other "gate" for his role, and not moved last night.
Or if he absolutely had to do the kill, he would've claimed "Jack of All Trades"-type of thing, where he had a Doc-shot as well.

Scum!Persivul making the gambit the way he has done so far, would be aiming for a LyLo where his towncred comes from mavs doing all the heavy lifting in townspewing for him.
His gambit wouldn't end D3 simply because someone saw him killing the IC.
So if Persivul is scum here, I do not see a world where their teammates are by any means "easy to spot" or viewed as scummier than him.

[UnaBombaH]

because he can't find out anyone else's role because he's not a rolecop

This might turn out to be ironic for you if you're actually the scum here.

[UnaBombaH]

I don't like the way you've responded to this. I think town would have simply shrugged it off. Also, Tanner said he likewise spotted got the same from it. But, you don't respond at all to him - only to the guy with a wagon.

Because you are a claimed PR - he is not.
My reasoning for why I have handled Tanner the way I have comes alive tomorrow if we are both still alive.

[UnaBombaH]

Food for thought: assume popopopo is scum fakeclaiming - how did they know georgebailey didn't go anywhere N1?

[UnaBombaH]

I'm trying to weight the pros and cons in my head.

[UnaBombaH]

Food for thought: assume popopopo is scum fakeclaiming - how did they know georgebailey didn't go anywhere N1?

Hold it - scum tracker is a thing too, so no, the George association isn't a hard scum point. But George is scum nonetheless.

That's why it's food for thought and not an outright mistake.

I'm also considering whether Town!Tracker-LucaBlight would've checked George N1...I guess it's more likely than scum!Luca tracking town!George?

[UnaBombaH]

I'm trying to weight the pros and cons in my head.

If we lynch Persivul today, we could still potentially get more results from a Tracker. (as in - believe popopopopo = scum-Persivul)

If we lynch popopopo today, we basically force scum to kill Persivul/mavs, and we still have one rather-easy-to-believe townslot left. (as in - believe Persivul = scum-popopopo).

[UnaBombaH]

I mean, I REALLY don't think popoppoopppo has played today like a Tracker with a hard guilty on someone.

[UnaBombaH]

But I do think town really should have SOME more power.
Hence, I do not want anyone counterclaiming popopopopo, and giving scum a freebie-kill on a PR.

[UnaBombaH]

Well, even if this is scum!Persi and town!popo, and we lynch Persi today, I think popo just gets shot tonight. There wouldn't be any more results from him.

I'm doing my best to save this situation, let's not give them anything more.

[UnaBombaH]

If we lynch popopopo today, we basically force scum to kill Persivul/mavs, and we still have one rather-easy-to-believe townslot left. (as in - believe Persivul = scum-popopopo).

I hadn't thought of that.

Unless you think me/popo is scum theater

, then lynching popo today conftowns me, which in turn conftowns mavs.

My thoughts are in bold. Can't believe you brought it up yourself in a moment like this..

[UnaBombaH]

Not a chance. If I were doctor I’d 100% protect Popopopo here (if Persivul flips scum). Persivul’s not a power role anymore. Picking a lynch between the two, town has more to lose by lynching a tracker than lynching a 1x Rolecop who already used their ability.

This.

[UnaBombaH]

Also, in that scum tracker scenario with the whole telling the truth about George but lying about you would clear George as there’s no reason scum tracker would actually track their scum buddy George.

I do not understand how you can be saying this.
If popooopo is scum, they either tracked

TOWN!george

to know they didn't do anything N1, or they tracked anywhere else, and they KNOW their

scumbuddy!george

didn't move.

[UnaBombaH]

I just hope nobody makes any rash decision.
Read popopos ISO for today.
Like actually read it.
I'll do the same.

[UnaBombaH]

I mean, they theoretically could've taken a blind guess, too.

Why do people leave room for "blind luck" in a game with a slowass tempo and no need to make hasty decision?
Everything claim-related can be thought out and planned.

[UnaBombaH]

Also I'd like to hear if Una had anything else to say now that both Persi and mavs have truly said what they had.

I'm currently in thinky-mode.
I also want to hear from Ruby, but I think I know how that's going to already..

(something like "I'm the smartestest and bestest, and here's a vote on the *OBVIOUS SCUM*"

[UnaBombaH]

Honestly if the Town Protective was enough of a moron to protect a claimed Rolecop over a literal IC, then we deserve to lose, plain and simple.

I'd say saving the investigative might be better actually..

[UnaBombaH]

How is "miller 1 dies, miller 2 dies" WORSE for the town than "Miller one dies, a town PR dies, miller is NK'd due to being obv town".

It's a 1 shot... town would have been STRONGER to have 1 miller and two vanillas in those roles.

Thus... you are all attempting to get me, and others, to believe that THREE NEGATIVE UTILITIES ARE A BONUS

Fuck that noise.

Thats just silly.
You are not thinking it from a towny standpoint there.
Two Millers is TWO negative utility, YES. Adding in a Rolecop doesn't make it three.
And counting the obvious nightkill from scum towards a confirmed townie AS A NEGATIVE, is the same as saying that IC is negative utility because scum will obviously kill them..
Forcing scums hand considering NK's is always good if we have any PRs that can track/watch or protectives around.

[UnaBombaH]

So... there has to be power roles elsewhere, and YOU WANT TO LYNCH THE CLAIMED TRACKER?

Again, your wavelength is totally off. Now you are mixing scenario A with scenario B.
Because in this particular case we have a claimed Tracker that contradicts the Rolecop claim because of the result presented.
So in this particular case, we are going to lynch one of them anyway, and one of them IS going to flip a town-PR.

[UnaBombaH]

And it’s easier to fake game theory than day long bread crumbing.

Wait what? Day long crumbing? Did I check the wrong ISO, or were there only like 3/4 posts before they were claiming?
Not THAT hard to do.

[UnaBombaH]

People have been complaining a lot, and blaming many things, but I'd argue that the biggest mistake Town has made here, is tunneling on scenarios and then falling for conf.bias when "reading". I was just called apathetic few posts ago, but I have the 4th most posts, and despite falling to prod-range I've been active otherwise.
Me not voting yet is simply wanting to see/hear everything possible without getting stuck to theory first.
I'll give a few examples within 24hours.
But most of all, we need the Ruby-slot to do something.
It's unfair for us if that slot can skate their way to a potential LyLo without committing to a longer read and providing content.

[UnaBombaH]

Like, consider the players forming these current frontlines around the competing claims.
They can't all be scum, so some of them just have to be wrong. That is fine in itself, obviously, but the fervor they have is worrying, considering none of them SHOULD be informed about the roles claimed.
And someone like Prana making posts that mix competing scenarios to make a case FOR one of them while discrediting the other..? It obviously makes this a mess to read, because I can't say whether they are scum narrating for an agenda, or just a townie getting too riled up.
The other slot that really worries me is mavs.
They managed to be the most obv.townie player to me earlier based on their posts alone, but today.. It's not just the fact they are Dead sure Pers is scum here, but the fact that they use bad logic and reasoning to reach it.
I still do not understand the logic some people have used here regarding claims and fakeclaims anyway.

Scum can have power roles AND claim their roles truthfully AND still lie about their targets and results.
Scum can be Vanilla AND still claim PRs BECAUSE they have some information that they can use as a basis.
Simply walking past stuff like this ^ is why scum get away with their fakeclaims all the time.

[UnaBombaH]

All that being said, I'm in a weird spot where I really don't think popopo or their "supporters" are that believable or towny at all, BUT I'm meaning towards Persivul being the more reasonable lynch here anyway.

[UnaBombaH]

I know it's a hassle to get good replacements into games, but I really hope we also get an extension for this.
Town always loses ground whenever there are lurkers/coasters who are allowed to surf until lategame.

Disclaimer:

I do not imply that Ruby has been intentionally dodging the game, nor that anyone else previously has.
But the fact is we can't/shouldn't make guesses either.
If someone is not here, they should be prodded->replaced.
Sometimes real life gets ahead of playing, and getting replaced in a game isn't the end of the world if you're really dealing with something else.

[UnaBombaH]

popopopopopopo (2)Tanner;Persivul;

+

Persivul (3)PranaDevil;popopopopopopo;mavsfan41;

This almost has to have 2/3 scum in it.
Like, it's not an "Heureka"-moment that'll blow me away, but I feel like I'm seeing it more clearly now.

mavs' turn on Persivul seems forced, and is actually the biggest red flag to me when it comes to choosing between Pers/popopppopoop being scum.
I can only see it the same way that I originally felt about the Rolecop-claim - that they are both scum and this claim by popopopopo turned their plans around.
Persivul+mavs = scum -> Tanner is a townie being lead on by the nose?
I've had my gutfeels about the slot ever since the beginning, but I guess they could've been off anyway.

On the other side of the coin is obviously popopoppopopo+Prana.
The biggest reason for my continued suspiciousness here, has been the way Prana has been forcing narratives throughout the game.
First it was against me and my "reaction-test" towards the Drew-Sta -lynch, and now it's the way they are coloring their posts about this whole popopoppopo vs Pers situation.

[UnaBombaH]

Why the fuck would a claimed role cop make the night kill?

Seems like obvious tracker bait.

If Perisvul is scum, weird decision.

Intent to vote Persivul

but don’t want a self-hammer in this situation.

Prana would be cleared (my bad Prana...).

THIS.
Exactly this.
Think about it folks - if Persivul were to be a scum!RoleCop, he would never check OR kill Eve here.
They already knew Eves role since it was globally revealed, and they'd want a result from Persivul.
So someone else would've done the killing anyway since Eve was the target.

This stuck out to me when I was rereading this gameday.
We agree on the sillyness of Pers claiming Rolecop -> committing the kill N2 towards the IC, but we arrive at a completely different conclusion.

I'm hesitant in allowing this to guide me too much, but Persivuls play here makes no sense as scum.
Like, it would be superbly weird.
1. Make a claim-gambit
->
2. claim a result that puts you right next to the no-lynch/lynch -line but stand by your claims
->
3.

ADD IN A ONE-SHOT CAVEAT

AFTER MOVING N2 AND DOING THE KILL FOR THE SCUMTEAM (???)

, still considering their target would've been someone that simply doesn't fit their claim.
->
4. Get easily guiltied by all the potential Trackers/Followers/Watchers etc.

[UnaBombaH]

Yet somehow mavs deems it more likely that Pers is scum, and they just decided to claim Rolecop D2 but also risked it all as soon as N2?
Is there something there?

Shouldn't be, because town!Pers always leads to town!mavs.

[UnaBombaH]

You make a GREAT point about why a townie role would be targeting the IC. The only thing I could possibly imagine is a watcher/voyeur (the one where you see who visited that person during the night) on Eve. And that would make sense as Eve was the most likely to be targeted.

Even with this being the case and Eve being dead, if Popopopo is the tracker and targeted Percivul, Percivul would’ve seen who targeted Eve and therefore should be pushing that person as scum and would’ve likely claimed in that scenario.

No way town!Percivul targeted Eve last night and is now pushing Popopopo if Popopo’s telling the truth about being the tracker.

I also have no idea what happened here..?
Why was there ever any talk about Pers being anything other than a 1-shot Rolecop at this point?
Assumed town!Pers, would have NO REASON to target Eve N2, and then withhold the information on why they targeted there, AND THEN CLAIM 1-SHOT ROLECOP.
This straight up feels like scum!mavs trying to find a foothold for not voting Persivul, before deciding to bus instead.

[UnaBombaH]

Yea, I guess this doesn't come down to Persivul vs popopopo after all.
It comes down to mavs vs Prana.

[UnaBombaH]

Yea, I guess this doesn't come down to Persivul vs popopopo after all.
It comes down to mavs vs Prana.

And no, don't be silly.
We are never lynching outside of Pers/popopopopo today.

I just meant that my decision will be based more on how these two slots acted around the claims.

[UnaBombaH]

Yet somehow mavs deems it more likely that Pers is scum, and they just decided to claim Rolecop D2 but also risked it all as soon as N2?
Is there something there?

Shouldn't be, because town!Pers always leads to town!mavs.

I had to write this down separately just because I realized how EASY it would've been to group up all the ones voting for Persivul (on a green flip there, obviously), but since mavs is "cleared" by town!Pers, it's not possible.

[UnaBombaH]

~24hours from now, I'll be putting down my vote.
And as of right now, I'm leaning towards keeping it simply and voting Persivul.
The only reason stopping me from doing so yet, is because I'm still hopeful we might get a replacement that actually says something about the situation and picks a side before the end of the day.

[UnaBombaH]

I just don’t see a Popopop/George team.

popopopo -> Prana makes the most sense.
George is somewhere around #4/#5 -slot to fill the team up.

[UnaBombaH]

Prana is really pushing me to the edge here.
I almost feel like I could vote popopo here just because Prana is the one supporting them the most..

Why?
Because not only did they misrep. me AGAIN, and likely because they don't actually read what I say, they just pretend to.
And because they immediately afterwards AGREE WITH A POINT I'VE MADE AGES AGO, and start to recap and reiterate it like it's a new idea.

[UnaBombaH]

There's no reason why the scumteam couldn't just be popopo/Pers/mavs.


So saying stuff like "How could you vote there?" or "How can you believe this or that?" is stupid considering the mess we are in.

[UnaBombaH]

^^this is the realest reason why I'm leaning towards lynching Pers today, no matter how mad Prana makes me.

[UnaBombaH]

I'm well aware.

[UnaBombaH]

I find it funny how heated people can get over "being right" when they have absolutely no idea whether they are right or not.

Day 3 ends in (expired on 2020-05-12 11:14:00) or when a lynch has been achieved.
Ruby Red is being replaced. Deadline extended by 12 hours because the slot is still not filled. This is the

last

extension.

^^there's still plenty of time.

[UnaBombaH]

Oh look, Prana has posted. Has he replied to my 1227? No? Ok.

The thing about you seems to be a high degree of neediness.
Not everyone notices, or even finds the need to answer, everything.
Here it feeds into your already existing scumread on Prana, sure, I can understand that.
But the one who's wrong here is also the one who has let confirmation bias roll over them.

[UnaBombaH]

Anyway, how much do y'all wanna bet that Ruby's slot is Town and scum is trying to drag this out to the point where we are eaten by apathy because some Town slots (mavs, most likely Una) are obviously wrong and won't vote for popo?

One of the reasons why I'm currently just delaying my vote is because you and a few others are throwing around things such as this "obviously wrong".
But we do agree on the fact that the Ruby-slot is quite likely just town.
Which is why I want them to be replaced before the day ends so that they can dedicate the nightphase for reading the game.
But call that apathy, being "obviously wrong" or just scummy, I really do not care.

[UnaBombaH]

I'm currently writing a long-ass answer to Tanner, but the page keeps loading and nothing happens.
I'll post it before I go to sleep, and hope that my read on Tanner is correct.

[UnaBombaH]

I asked this of Una twice, I got ignored. Whatever, I'm going to type it anyway so that tomorrow I can point at it and say "I fucking told you so."

Let's do that.

Imagine a scenario in which I (Tanner) am Town, but Persivul is scum. You with me?

So far with you. Now I'm assuming there will be some kind of a mechanical explanation for why I should believe you, instead of just spewing WIFOM about your own position on a mislynch..

Have you seen my play this Dayphase? Look me in the eyes and tell me that, if Persivul is ever to flip scum, I am not immediately lynched after him. You can't. Because it's true. If Persi is to ever, EVER flip scum in this game, I have signed my own death certificate and will fall down right after him like a domino.

Now do YOU understand that anything and everything here means absolutely NOTHING to me?
What you have basically told me here is the thing I already KNOW.

Persivul being scum here doesn't make you scum.

Did YOU read what I wrote?
It's "mavs vs Prana" in the sense that one of them is most likely playing the right hand for the scum in popopopoppo/Persivul, and the other is town.
I think you COULD be either alignment, but read you as town - no matter what Persivul flips.
But what you don't seem to understand or accept, is that you COULD very well be just as wrong as anyone else.
Therefore, it does not matter at all,

at all

, whether you feel certain or not.
And I for one don't think you ought to be the next lynch anyway, no matter who flips what.

It is Day 3, most likely 3v6. Do you know what scum!Persi's partners need to do to secure a victory?
(1) Sheep me onto popo. Choose literally any of my countless posts where I'm yelling how popo is a scumfuck and jump on that wagon. popo gets lynched and flips green.
(2) Day 4 is 3v4, with Persivul as outed scum. He is obviously immediately lynched.
(3) Day 5, you have 2v3. And you have poor ol' Tanner. Tell me I don't get lynched there after Persivul flipped red. Because I do. I am the most free mislynch in that lylo imaginable. Which is also the last mislynch scum needs to win this game.

No. This is where you fall short.
If Persivul is scum, mavs is scum. Mark my words.
I didn't think it was a given before this gameday, but I'm very certain of it now.
Which is also why the scumteam can't pile on popopopo anymore.
Mavs took the road of dividing the wagon, and he can't jump anymore.
One of the reasons why I've also dragged my part in voting here, is because I wanted to see if anyone was even willing to discuss or reconsider.
Guess who's been the only one?
George.

Now, if scum!Persi's partners can win this game so easily, why oh why aren't scum!Persi's partners jumping onto popo's wagon under the shield of Tanner who will be turned into the 5p lylo fallguy?

Because they don't exist. (or in simple terms because I guess this Town needs it: because Persivul is not scum.)

tl;dr of the above rant: if you think I am Town, you need to vote popo.

Almost but not quite.
I'd argue town wins this game if we lynch Persivul today.
No matter what he flips, we are in a decent spot tomorrow.

[UnaBombaH]

@Prana - are you able to nuance your read/decision towards todays lynch at all?
Is it more about you REALLY believing in popopopo, or is it more about scumreading/suspecting Persivul to the extent that popopopo providing an actual guilty is a bonus?

[UnaBombaH]

If you flip green, then the next two lynches are set for the next two days.

Persivul -> ???
Want to give your opinion on who the second one is?

[UnaBombaH]

I think that's a really valid point. The fact that it's ungated is pretty weird. But my point is that both probably have the highest chance of getting shot in either scenario.

VOTE: popo

i dont understand this shit. how can u vote me here? you of all people should know im telling the truth??? WTF

reminder to myself in future games that george bailey is a fucking VI

I still don't think scum!Luca would've Tracked town!George..
Meaning that this is either scum2scum, or town2town, has to be.

[UnaBombaH]

No wait, this isn't straightforward either.
Persivul / mavs / George is yet another variation.

[UnaBombaH]

You do realize that BOTH me and George need to vote for there to be a lynch at this time?
Interesting situation.

[UnaBombaH]

VOTE: Persivul -

I hope George does the right thing for town and makes sure we at least get a lynch.

My votes is based mainly on mavs' play today, and obviously the contradicting claims.
I have a good hunch that no matter what Persivul flips today, town still has a good chance of pulling through.
Much depends on the replacement though, and if Persivul happens to flip green, how well Tanner can check themself.

[UnaBombaH]

What else do you want popopopo to do when they claim to have a guilty on Persivul?

[UnaBombaH]

I'll also put it like this - IF Persivul flips green, we lose a PR that was unconfirmable and out of shots per their own claim.
We also lose (at night) their one confirmed townie, WHO HAPPENS TO BE VOTING FOR PERSIVUL AS WELL.
In the trade we get an automatic lynch on popopo tomorrow, and a follow-up on Prana the day after.
Leading us into a LyLo that still revolves totally around individual reads over results (most likely, that is).

IF we lynch popopopo and they flip green, we lose a PR who MIGHT have still had a shot at a result tonight. (not very likely yea, but possible with a Doc or something)
We also do not know where the scum are going to kill, and

we have zero conf.townies anyway, because the result on mavs isn't reliable!

(remember that Pers is scum if popopo flips green)

So yes, I am mostly playing this around the negatives and leaning towards the solution that's "the lesser of two evils" in my opinion.

[UnaBombaH]

Voting popo is the best option today.

If we were to forget about the reads completely for a moment (since you yourself brought up mechanical reasonings for why Pers=mavs alignment), then to be honest, popo is by far the worse option here.

1) they might still have a chance to get results unlike Pers
2) lynching Persivul confirms mavs' alignment (even if for a second)
3) Considering the above, we should always lynch the claimed guilty over the investigative who gets called liar (because obviously they always do)

^^this is without reads/conf.bias affecting the judgement.

[UnaBombaH]

For all of Una's analysis showing that I wouldn't play as I have as scum, he still manages to find reasons to vote me.

If you are town here, I'd argue your play around your role was close to being optimal..?
I don't think claiming that 1-shot modifier would've been the right call D2 either, and the WIFOM about your result was always going to be there.

If you are scum, I commend you on your gambit anyway, and only think it was silly for you to commit the kill last night considering what you had claimed.

[UnaBombaH]

If we were to forget about the reads completely for a moment

See what I mean?

This is mafia. Why would you forget about reads?

Read closely.
Knightmare argues with mechanics, so I answered with mechanics.

[UnaBombaH]

@Persivul: nfw scum!George votes scum!Popopopo in 857 and furthermore absolutely no chance scum!George votes scum!popopopo in 1058 and vote his scum buddy rather than just leaving it on you for the easy mislynch.

My flip conftowns you 100%.

When you're still alive in final lylo...ask yourself

why

.

Why did you go for this path at all?
What is the reasoning?
Why would scum EVER leave a conf.town alive when all the other kills are likely just Vanillas, and we have one 100% absent slot that's almost impossible to read in LyLo?

[UnaBombaH]

I also think that if we mislynch on popopo today, I know everyone will rally up on you, but it will be very difficult to find the next two lynches in a LyLo because of what mavs has claimed.

[UnaBombaH]

UNVOTE:

[UnaBombaH]

^^I just want to make sure no one stops the day while I'm in the middle of this.
Whenever you manage to make me doubt, I always go back to check how popopo arrived to this day.
They vote you in their first post of the day, and they only made 2-3 posts in total before it was a full-on 1v1.
Their posts are consistent with their claim.
They out their guilty only when they are at L-1, but they still do it in a way that makes some sense.
My only DOUBTS about their claim are these short snippets:

persivul lied yesterday and

i believe

he is still not being truthful with us.

"believe"?
Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather use a stronger word when there's a reasonable chance I'm going to have to out my guilty at some point.

i agree with prana that persi is

extremely sus

.

Weird choice of words IMO, considering they could've just as well said "persi is scum" without outing their role or result yet.

[UnaBombaH]

... Please tell me I'm not the only one who sees how bad this above post is.

You were scumreading Prana. You were Townreading Persivul. Where is the progression on either of those? What has made you suspect Persivul, other than him withholding he's 1shot?

I also find it harder and harder to look past this post from Tanner.
This post screams "popopo has no reason to scumread Persivul here, unless something happened overnight".
Yet tanner didn't think this fits with popopopo being a Tracker with a guilty?

[UnaBombaH]

Your point being?
I still think it's a silly reason to townlock popopoppo for "day long bread crumbing".
Doesn't mean their posting or play was wildly inconsistent with their claim?

[UnaBombaH]

You can bash me all you want for not picking a side earlier or being more adamant with my reads.
But to be fair, I think the biggest reason why it's so fucking hard to assess the situation correctly right now is because so many players are acting stupid.
Either they are scum flailing around or rushing forward, or thei are townies that are too afraid to "look scummy" and take a step back and re-evaluate.
I have my own read of tanner, but the way they have locked on the idea of scum!popopo is not normal for an uninformed townie.
mavs did a completely unreasonable lock on to you instead.
Prana has been misrepping me the whole game.
George is doing the exact opposite of me, and keeps voting/unvoting instead of just taking a breather, and voting when they feel good about a decision.

Too big of a scumteam based on the play alone.

[UnaBombaH]

redpandas flipped fucked my reads

i figured id check persi to confirm him, myself and mavs and form a town bloc

imagine my surprise

Here it is. It's a blatant lie. A tracker couldn't CONFIRM me. It could only get a guilty.

Oh.
And when did you claim to be a 1-shot exactly?

[UnaBombaH]

Right, you can't make it a clear-cut case either, no matter how hard you try.

[UnaBombaH]

2. Panda's lynch fucked with his reads. He claims he decided to track me in order to get a clear on me, despite the fact that he COULDN'T get a clear on me. He could only get a guilty.

Except you already made this same mistake yesterday, and I was there to spot it.

[UnaBombaH]

Right, you can't make it a clear-cut case either, no matter how hard you try.

In what world do I make the kill there?

Oh, it goes deeper than that.
In what world does the Tracker track a claimed Rolecop WHO HAPPENS to later claim 1-shot and HAPPENS TO COMMIT THE KILL for the scumteam the same night?

[UnaBombaH]

Leaving Tanner+George+Prana+Knightmare+"Haven't been around at all"-slot to deal with a 5-player LyLo is gonna be awful.

[UnaBombaH]

Guess that's not an actual reality that will ever happen considering the tie-ins that some of the slots have, but I literally just got a headache thinking about this too much.

[UnaBombaH]

Una has to spill the beans on "I'll say why I'm acting like I'm acting around Tanner tomorrow if we're both alive.

Yea, can't dodge that anymore.
Some of your posting and the positioning you had made me feel you might've been a Cop.
Think of that what you will.
I even considered you might've had an inno on Persivul, and that was one of the biggest reasons why I was hesitant on voting there even though I thought it would've been the better choice.

And to make it clear - I came back on site after work, BEFORE the deadline, but the votes had already been laid down.
And I would've re-voted Persivul, not gonna lie.
So good for us that I was a bit late, eh?

[UnaBombaH]

I think it's PD+Una

Sure you do.
You are running out of lynch-options.

[UnaBombaH]

The one, and only, other option outside of this, is if Persi and mavs had a plan with popo, which is so far out there I'm not going to actively consider it.

I want to see you flip today, and if you flip town, I really think Persivul might actually be scum with the balls to actually do this.

[UnaBombaH]

However, short of Persi vs popo being scum vs scum, Persi is already confirmed. I do not think the long game was for Persi and popo to sell each other out and roll on.

Don't give me this shit.
There's still the world where you and Persivul are both scum, and town doesn't even realize we had to potential scumlynched yesterday.
Meaning that yes, scum COULD'VE absolutely done it.

Is Persivul going to be our first lynch?
Of course not.
Is there still a solid margin for scum!Persivul?
Sure.
It would also explain why it was so hard for me to make a decision yesterday, because in a way I really felt like choosing between two fakeclaims.

[UnaBombaH]

I still think George is Town.

FTR I also do think he is town based on interaction with popo.

I don't think a scum! GB changes their mind so many times, etc.
I don't think he can fake those reactions of reconsiderations as scum,

It's some combination of PD/Una/Ruby for the 2 scum.

I don't read them as reconsideration in the sense that he was trying to fake a change in reads.
I feel like the scumteam doesn't have a daytalk, and popopo was trying to control the way George acted, and poor George wasn't sure whether he was wanted to bus (reverse psychology) or actually wanted to pile on Persivul in hopes of lynching somewhere else.

And now imagine the reality where both Persivul and George are the remaining scum, and go ISO George from yesterday.
It really seems like an unsure scumplayer who has to decide between which buddy to bus.

[UnaBombaH]

Una, I won't quite right now because mobile is pain, but I'm pretty sure I saw a post from you saying how you're certain Persi and mavs are the same alignment. And mavs just flipped green. So what's up?

I might've said that mavs and Persi might very likely be both scum.
I'm really not sure I ever decided that they are for certain the same alignment.
If anything, I'd argue I've been the loudest advocate for not locking Persivul as town in any scenario.

[UnaBombaH]

I mean, Persivul IS most likely town here, now that we have seen the 2nd Miller-flip.
The only reality where Persivul is scum here, is the one where scum were informed there's no Rolecop.
Right now I'm just arguing with Knightmare and Prana for the sake of arguing.
I believe Prana and George could just as well be the two remaining scum.

[UnaBombaH]

Oh, and in case you forgot, popopo either GUESSED that George did nothing N1 or they are scum together.

[UnaBombaH]

Weird claim to make if it was based on luck and chance alone.

[UnaBombaH]

Oh, and in case you forgot, popopo either GUESSED that George did nothing N1 or they are scum together.

Or...?

Or scum have another Tracker, or a Rolecop or something that could make it sure that George didn't move N1.

[UnaBombaH]

There's yet again a reason why I chose not to say it straight up.
Let's see the massclaim through first.

[UnaBombaH]

Una, can you give me your read on Prana?

There's something I want to figure out but I'm not sure what your take here is.

I do not understand the connection with the quote you had there, but I think my take on them has been quite obvious.

I think there's two scum in George, Knightmare, PranaDevil, Puppy.
I believe that out of those four, we should likely go Prana-> George-> Knightmare-> Puppy to win.

Prana hopping on popooopo the way they did gives them no towncred, because we were going to get a lynch anyway.
If it had been on Persivul, sure, we'd be at LyLo, but we'd run down popopopo->Prana next anyway.
Their trajectory D3 is totally off with those last pages compared to the rest of the day.

[UnaBombaH]

So i find that odd -- why argue with the people who are voting with you?

I feel like I was the only one trying to really harvest the most we possibly could from yesterday.
I tried to create tension to see who might jump ship or bulldoze onwards the hardest.
I feel like the reactions yesterday were there, now it's just up for everyone to interpret them to their best ability.
IMO Prana+George is very reasonable and logical, and most of all, visibly readable from their interactions yesterday.

[UnaBombaH]

I claim Vanilla Townie.

[UnaBombaH]

Now since you are the only who hasn't claimed yet: please tell me you're an investigative of sorts Tanner, and I can be at peace.

[UnaBombaH]

I had a hunch you MIGHT have had an inno, at least a soft one, on Persivul, but I didn't want to base my decision yesterday on a hunch about a potential result on a hunch about a potential claim.

[UnaBombaH]

This makes more sense to me tbh.

Three goons, and all town has for utility is a 1-shot rolecop - to potentially negate at least one of the negative-utility roles?
Dunno where this site stands on balance regarding the "Mountainous" setup (all Vanillas on both sides).

It was this far back when I first started to think about how funny it could be if the only roles were to be two Millers, a Rolecop and a red herring in whatever Panda was.

[UnaBombaH]

You thought Persi was scum, but were really just baiting other players to look scummy instead of working harder to lynch Persi?

If we had just speedlynched either of the slots we'd have next to no info.
And I made it very clear that I was more or less split between the choices until the moment I finally voted.

[UnaBombaH]

I mean, I think Persi and I are transparently Town at this point anyway, that Mason claim would be a waste.

You saying stuff like this always makes my hair go up.
Townies who are under no pressure, should have no reason to say stuff like this, especially since it means nothing when people say it about themselves.

[UnaBombaH]

Puppy, you really need to focus before you spew no sense about me.
Prana has been practicing it the whole game, and even they don't make much sense.

[UnaBombaH]

So, I'm fully admitting to my fault here, for being an undecisive second-guesser, but I honestly do not see a scum-agenda that could be derived from my actions.
You could say that I was scum with popopo and wanted the Persivul-lynch until the very end, but was "afraid to commit" or whatever you can come up with, BUT why didn't I use my position of non-committal to bus popopo then?
ESPECIALLY when Prana offered to switch wagons just to make sure a lynch goes through?
Go read my back and forth I was having with myself, and tell me that I wasn't in a reasonable position to take either wagon before I decided to choose the other half of my brain that kept saying Persivul is scum.
OK then, you could argue that Prana and I are still both scum, and I wanted to avoid the connection between the two of us.
But if that is the case, then why on earth do I want Prana to be the lynch today, and am basically willing to consider no other options?

Also, prana saying "there was that good case on Una yesterday, I remember who said and what and when, but I remember it was good, why is no one following it?"
Must've been a hell of a case if you can't remember it anymore. Or take the time to find it.

I was thinking about a setup where there's no Rolecop, two Millers and that "red-herring" of a role Panda had, and I just don't see any sense in it.
So I guess my paranoia towards Persivul being the mastermind has to go for good, and that's that.

Tanner is the only potential "deepwolf" at this point, I guess.
I had a PR-read on them quite early, and wanted to create this atmosphere where I constantly "scumread" them to try and position them so that they aren't worthy of NK for scum as long as some people still suspect them.
That turned out to be completely unnecessary considering they have claimed VT (and there aren't any roles to be seen anywhere) and the events of the last two days mostly drew the focus somewhere else anyway.
Their biggest advantage right now is the fact that they have been able to position themselves well enough to avoid being in the lynchpool for endgame, whether they are town or scum.

Puppy is just lost, but I don't blame them with the amount of catchup to be done.
Although, I'd like to say that whenever I replace into a game, I always do a FULL catchup.
If I don't have the time or energy, I do not replace into a game.
But I guess we wouldn't have many replacements if that was the prerequisite for everyone..

Knightmare is shamefully a "gray" slot for me.
I honestly only remember poor posts from them, but somehow never thought they'd be a prime-candidate for a lynch.
Something else always came up, and my reads shifted elsewhere.
This is the slot I will ISO during this dayphase.

George honestly seems like he's a bit lost too.
In the sense that while I have been undecided on many things, yes, he seems to decide AND THEN UNDECIDE in the heat of the moment.
And I think that's worse for a townie, and a tell for a scummy.
I think this slot is either scum, or really needs to calm down and think before voting.

If I forgot about someone, I really need to ISO them.

[UnaBombaH]

I was thinking about a setup where there's no Rolecop, two Millers and that "red-herring" of a role Panda had, and I just don't see any sense in it.
So I guess my paranoia towards Persivul being the mastermind has to go for good, and that's that.

Oh, and to poke at this a little more - had there been even ONE PR for town in the claims, I could've had my suspicions on Persivul in the backburner still, but considering that the only CONFIRMED roles for town are D1_revealed_IC + 2xMiller + Encryptor_without_a_PT, and since nothing else is coming, I'm willing to say that Persivul would've had no reason to claim what they did.
Unless scum had information about the setup, which if they did, this setup absolutely can not be balanced.

So based on that alone, I'm done 2nd guessing Persivul, and anyone who does is wasting their time.

Tanner including himself in the "transparently townie"-list is silly though, but I'm still leaning town there for now.
Pending a big revelation in the ISO-work I'm going to do...

[UnaBombaH]

Prana puppy is my guess too

VOTE: PranaDevil

This was an L-1 and wasn't announced.

Just got back and noticed this too.
George just keeps on giving.

[UnaBombaH]

On the other hand, I mean, Prana should be the lynch today for all I care.

[UnaBombaH]

George looks better to me looking at that vote record.

Really? To me it looks exactly like a scum without a daytalk, considering whether to bus or not.
Also something to consider - when I put you at L-1, both George and Prana were already on you.
Meaning that even if scum would've wanted to hammer you there, they couldn't do it.
I guess they both realized that, and once George wandered onto popopo once, Prana took the leap.

[UnaBombaH]

Persi can we talk about your thoughts on Una?

Can we all just talk about what about me you'd consider scummy, or what are the scum-pairings you can see?
If you can see me as scum with anyone else than Prana, I'd suggest you lynch me today to remove the doubt.
If it's only WITH Prana, I'm advocating that lynch today anyway, and if we hit red there, yet again, to remove the doubt.
My solve is still Prana->George, and there's honestly very little sense in a solve with neither of them as scum.

[UnaBombaH]

when I put you at L-1, both George and Prana were already on you.
Meaning that even if scum would've wanted to hammer you there, they couldn't do it.

Or, the inactive slot didn't hammer? To suggest the entire scum team was on Persi without hammer seems too desperate.

No idea how you manage to mix any desperation there.
Also my point here was to simply show that George+Prana voting patterns and the last minute switch all make sense if the scumteam doesn't have a daytalk.

[UnaBombaH]

No. George unvoted in 1211. He had no vote up when you put me at L-1 in 1260. You knew that, and even called george out to vote me:

Did I misread your recap then?
I based that post solely on it.

[UnaBombaH]

Don't like una so far today.

I'm not sure I like myself so far either.

[UnaBombaH]

My only thing is that I don't feel much like casing anyone or anything anymore.
If Prana isn't scum, we have a situation where I have not been able read much of anything correctly this game, and we are in a LyLo where I might still need to make a case for myself or we lose.
If Prana is scum, I'm almost willing to be lynched tomorrow if Persivul doesn't reconsider the George-lynch.

[UnaBombaH]

if u still don't have a case on anyone what was the point of picking fights with other posters?

You are as much stuck on this as Prana was on "Una said he wanted to end the day immediately D1 after we had the Miller-claim".

I HAVE given my reasons for why Prana is scum.
Most of them were in the previous days.
You claim to have read most of the game - you should know.

Me "picking fights" is 1st of all a weird way of putting it, especially since it has always been about trying to get reactions and reads whenever I've disagreed or argued with a player I've ended up agreeing with in the end.
2nd of all, I still do not see how that results in a scumread? It's more scummy to disagree with others and poke at things in an effort to generate discussion, than it would be to just sheep everything and everyone in turn?

[UnaBombaH]

Furthermore - if people can't see my genuine frustration at my own game and reads so far, then there's a thing for you to look for in my ISO.
Especially now that I know I was wrong about Persi vs popopo, AND it turns out that my gutread on Tanner has been a miss as well.

Nothing in this game has gone my way yet, so obviously I'm feeling discouraged and irritated.
What makes it all "better" is the fact that puppy is acting the same way that Prana was/has been acting for the majority of the game.
With puppy it's even more annoying because their slot has been active less than I've been right in this game.

[UnaBombaH]

Especially now that I know I was wrong about Persi vs popopo

You can't really be wrong when you're sitting on a fence.

Oh no, I made a decision and never denied it either.
I was going to revote you before the deadline, but the day had ended before my work did that day.

Guess we should be glad for that at least?

[UnaBombaH]

This game gives me anxiety and I'm trying to pretend it doesn't exist but one cannot run forever.

Maybe I'm a sucker for AtE but I lowkey think Puppy is more likely to be scum than Una here...

Puppy AND George.
The only thing I'm feelin anxiety for is George being dropped lower and lower on the lynch order.

[UnaBombaH]

In fact... that's a good point, Ruby's only scum was popo

When this flips red..

Not Ruby's only scum, Panda's only scum.

This was either an intentional "slipup" or it was puppy all along.

[UnaBombaH]

Then I think Una is Town, but I'm somehow getting a feeling that Una is being positioned to be tomorrow's lynch. Maybe I'm buying into Una's AtE. Maybe. But I have a gutfeel that the game is currently being positioned into Prana>Una and I'm not sure I like it?

The only thing making me uneasy here, is you apparently feeling uneasy.
You've been so certain on the surface-level for some time now.
I'll salute you, and only you, in your team if you managed to fake all this.

[UnaBombaH]

Persivul.

I'm going to flip green.

So... tell town what they should do when that happens.

Lynch Una and Puppy. I've already said that. Multiple times. Like within the last hour.

Why aren't you reading the thread?

IF, and that's a big IF, Prana flips green today ^this loses town the game.
I know, I know - means nothing when I say it myself.
Luckily we both agree on scum!Prana, and I still feel comfortable there, so lynching me tomorrow shouldn't be game yet.

If we miss on Prana today, tomorrows gonna be a shitshow.