Large Normal 238 | Weiqi, Baduk, Go | Endgame

[DeasVail]

Hello!

I hope everyone is doing okay <3

[DeasVail]

Frogsterking, we really don't need to make a big deal out of the game start delay.

[DeasVail]

You are not helping your case, scumDatisi.

what case? "subliminally signaling" you have made a good vote by openly telling you you have made a good vote?

Datisi, this feels a bit intense for the context

[DeasVail]

DeasVail, would you also vote Datisi?

I appreciate the question and believe it comes from a good place, but I'm not feeling it quite yet. I'm intrigued by Datisi's approach so far, but have not decided what it comes from.

PEdit @Datisi. Ah, that makes sense. I still think your posting was somewhat provocative so I think it's totally expected that Yeet would be concerned by it. Was that what you expected also?

[DeasVail]

I'm not really sure why people are disliking dats thus far, he's been largely nai to me

This feels like shutting down the scum-Datisi train of possibility without actually being interested in it.

[DeasVail]

I think it's believable you and Dats +town

Why is it more believable than Yeet +towning your entrance?

[DeasVail]

If I am wrong on Datisi, then skitter30 is scum.

Only if you're wrong?

[DeasVail]

If Datisi is scum then I’m not sure what to make of skitter30’s reaction.

You bring up a good point that she doesn’t even seem interested in Datisi’s alignment or why we are all pushing. I don’t think she says that about a partner so early. The plausible world to me is that if Datisi is town then skitter30 is scum whiteknighting Datisi.

Thanks, that makes sense to me.

It's probably worth noting that I expect Skitter and Datisi have probably played with each other multiple times before and so I imagine Skitter thinks themselves able to read Datisi to greater degree of accuracy than other players in this game can read Datisi, which may explain their posting re: Datisi.

[DeasVail]

I think I agree with Skitter re: Tenebro. I don't have huge cause for concern yet.

[DeasVail]

tbh no one currently posting is causing great concern for me

[DeasVail]

After readinf 71 multiple times, i actually dont think i got any clarity from it >.>

Why is it more believeable that me/dats would townbin you than for yeet to do the same thing?

~

Nai = non alignment indicative

In other words i'm saying what dats has done thus far is neither townie nor scummy for him

skitter30, I don’t believe you are being consistent in your explanation.

I don’t believe that you would say that you’re not sure why people think Datisi is scum when you know exactly how he plays and believe this to be his town self.

You are assuming that we know him implicitly there. We do not know Datisi, so why would you expect us to have the same opinion on him with your knowledge?

You would’ve simply said that Datisi’s posts are “NAI”, without the part where you’re “not sure why people dislike him”.

It doesn’t make sense, it’s not a real read, and your approach to this whole thing feels like it’s not coming from a genuine solving headspace - rather it was feeble attempt to provide content and you felt the urge to white knight him.

Vote: skitter30

I don't completely agree, but I like the post. Keen to see where it goes.

[DeasVail]

tbh no one currently posting is causing great concern for me

We're getting like 3 posts a minute.

"no one (who is) currently posting"

not

"(the fact that there is) no one currently posting"

oh yes, thanks for the clarification.

English is a strange language!

[DeasVail]

Yeet seems trustworthy and makes a good point. But I think I'll stick with my vote for now.

this is scum

VOTE: tenebrous

yeah that was not a great post

[DeasVail]

Yeet seems trustworthy and makes a good point. But I think I'll stick with my vote for now.

this is scum

VOTE: tenebrous

yeah that was not a great post

i mean yours right after was kind of similar... the vibes aren't as bad but still

What was similar about it? What didn't you like about tenebro's post?

[DeasVail]

What was similar about it? What didn't you like about tenebro's post?

you both said you liked yeet's post but took no real position on what it actually meant. it's just weakly engaging, looks like content but doesn't say anything, and possibly some light pocketing. tene's was phrased more awkwardly but they're also newer than you, so meh

I don't have much to say on my post beyond that it pretty much meant exactly what was said. I wanted to express that I liked the thought process from Yeet, even if I didn't agree with the reasoning.

For what it's worth, I didn't like Tenebro's post because it felt like explaining a position in the way that scum would. I feel like scum are more aware of where they are voting and more often feel the need to justify their actions.

[DeasVail]

skitter, what did you think of 123? I thought it seemed a bit sassy to come from scum. The shade thrown gave me a very... relaxed impression?

[DeasVail]

Frogsterking, I strongly think that Yeet is town.

[DeasVail]

@Wu

Wu sheep my vote on Yeet if you're town. Yeet's slot is scummy, Yeet is stumbling the daystart, and I don't want my Yeet wagon to be arbitrarily abandoned

I agree that Yeet is sorta scummy because he acts less experienced than he is, but I kinda want to hear from him a little more.

What are examples of Yeet acting less experienced than he is? Also what more do you need to hear from him? He has made more posts than anyone.

Hi

Frogsterking is town

Discuss

VOTE: Nordom

Why is that worth discussing? If Frogsterking is town should we not then be discussing other things?

[DeasVail]

Why is that worth discussing? If Frogsterking is town should we not then be discussing other things?

I would assume you are the type of player who wants opinions on scumreads versus building a town circle. I understand this correctly?

Not especially. I was puzzled more because I did not think calling Frogsterking town was a particularly controversial statement.

[DeasVail]

VOTE: Eyes without a face

I’ll catch up on other stuff this afternoon

[DeasVail]

No, sorry

[DeasVail]

VOTE: Eyes without a face

I’ll catch up on other stuff this afternoon

I find this vote a bit odd. Is eyes really your strongest scumread out of everyone in the game off of just those two short posts?

Possibly!

It also is in some ways a placeholder while I wait for an opportunity to catch up. Because eyes only has two posts and has just entered the game, there is possibly more opportunity for engagement to form a read.

From a skim, Datisi's posting has a frantic feel which is concerning to me, but I haven't paid close enough attention yet to form a decision, which I don't want to make lightly particularly given the degree of suspicion on Datisi's slot.

[DeasVail]

I am tentatively at

humaneatingmonkey
GeneralWu


so the other 2 scum are in

Scorpious
Save The Dragons
MalcolmTucker
skitter30
Eyes without a face
Nordom

This sounds more like the town nero I know. Nothing solid yet but a town lean.

So a readslist on Page 12 is a lot different from a readslist on Page 8?

[DeasVail]

UNVOTE: Eyes without a face

[DeasVail]

If you’re town your goal is to not be voted for.

no

Do you think this statement from fua has alignment implications?

[DeasVail]

How has Yeet's takes been bad? His TvT with Ari and Monkey read was good.

I agree with this post. I’m a bit wary of anyone dismissing Yeet’s opinions as bad or newb. I think there are some errors of comprehension here and there, just as we all are prone to, but a lot of the thought processes have actually resonated quite strongly with me.

[DeasVail]

@VP Baltar, regarding Yeet:

41 was not necessarily a post I agreed with at the time, however was very understandable from someone not familiar with Datisi and reminded me of ways that I have felt about Datisi in previous games.
Yeet's suspicion of skitter, in my opinion best expressed in 131, was actually what went through my mind as well when first reading the skitter post in question (and I believe I made a comment on it at the time). I had since decided against my initial thought, but it was eerie how closely Yeet's post resembled my own thoughts.

577 was a post on humaneatingmonkey that I appreciated because it was reflecting on the situation in a way that I hadn't yet considered and gave me more to think about.

[DeasVail]

no, im relaxed yet sassy, didn't you hear

Only just saw this

Also, I think Datisi is town

[DeasVail]

What's the bullet point case on datisi again?

Basically, Daitisi was one to throw their hat into the popular pressure of Wu and Monkey. It just came off as lazy and convenient to me.

I kind of feel like you've done the same with the pressure of Datisi

[DeasVail]

UNVOTE: Eyes without a face

I'm actually not liking his content through here, ehy'd you remove the vote?

I disliked eyes' first posts, but I kind of lost the passion after posts like 586 - "I don't care about what reads he has here". - Seems strange from scum.
Going to the effort of "reading the game" (obviously not verifiable, but they at least pretended to) and then posting townreads on Nero and VP and then disappearing is also just a weird scum move. More likely imo that townreads on Nero and VP were just the most notable things to Eyes, who didn't think to say much else/got distracted/whatever. Scum probably thinks "well shit, I should probably talk about other people too".

But no, instead of that, we get 603, which seems random as anything. Seems town.

I think in the grand scheme of things, due to lack of posting and lack of confidence in the read (and as I get to the end of my catch up I'm feeling generally more townready about most people), Eyes is probably in the lower half of my reads list, but not a player that I feel compelled to pursue right now.

[DeasVail]

But I thought when I joined somehow the thread was still at page 1. I was like "why has nobody posted for an hour?"

This actually makes a lot of sense

In response to your question to me, I'm not sure what you mean, but it's possible I missed it due to not paying close attention to the game at the time I was posting. I voted Eyes because of the OTT reaction to Yeet's readlist, which felt like saying something for the sake of saying it and conveniently pushing on someone who comes across as, I suppose, more "nooby". I don't know that Nordom did the same thing? What did you mean by that?

[DeasVail]

What's the bullet point case on datisi again?

Basically, Daitisi was one to throw their hat into the popular pressure of Wu and Monkey. It just came off as lazy and convenient to me.

I kind of feel like you've done the same with the pressure of Datisi

I'm not so sure about that. I think I may have been the first one to vote Datisi.

I don't believe that you think this

[DeasVail]

I'm surprised that you didn't check to see if you were correct or not

[DeasVail]

If I were to force myself to group reads:

{Aristeia, Yeet}
{Frogsterking, Nero Cain, skitter30, fireisredsir}
{Save The Dragons, Datisi, humaneatingmonkey}
{MalcolmTucker, VP Baltar, Eyes without a face, Cape90}
{tenebrousluminary, GeneralWu}
{Scorpious, fua}
{Nordom}

[DeasVail]

Nervous in the I'm about to ride a thrilling roller coaster sort of way, or in the I'm about to do an exam that I didn't prepare for sort of way?

PEdit: To make myself organise my thoughts after reading through the thread properly for the first time since page 8.

[DeasVail]

I would be interested to see what fireisred picked up on regarding Nordom, but I don't think that Nordom is town. I will attempt to explain why I think this but I'm not sure it will be exactly right. In any case though, what struck me as I was reading the latter part of the game was I guess, just the way that Nordom is playing. There is clear activity, and lots of asking questions of other players, but most of these actually appear rather pointless. 707 as an example, feels like it comes from a place of "hmmm i want to ask this person a question" rather than having any real town basis. But also, regardless of pointlessness, why is someone so keen on looking like they're asking other people questions, so deiriding of people engaging with them? The interactions with fireisred, with skitter, with me even, do not feel like real attempts to actually figure someone out or get a sense of what they are thinking. It's overall just very dismissive.

The Datisi read and progression in particular makes no sense and does not feel like it comes from a genuine place. Nordom was fairly consistent in scumreading Datisi for a while there, to the point where he apparently believed he was the first on the wagon (which I doubt given Nordom's 493 specifically talking about wagons). There was also encouragement of Yeet's Datisi suspicion in 724, but then in 754 he gives the cop out of "if Datisi replies in a satisfactory manner, I'm switching my vote to VP". If Nordom thinks Datisi is scum, why is he almost.. expecting to be moving his vote? I don't get the sense of real genuine scumhunting processes behind this. There isn't any interest in why other people might think Datisi is town, for example.

More recently 883 feels like an attempt to distract from a blunder by a desperate attack on me?

VOTE: Nordom

[DeasVail]

I may have more to say on Monkey later, but fua asked about why I scumread Nord over monkey and I think a key difference for me is that monkey is that I get the impression monkey believes what they are saying while Nord doesn’t. I also kind of liked 518 because it was entitled in a way that I think is more common from town.

I haven’t fully processed Datisi’s recent posts, but a few things. I’m influenced by Ari’s strong townread of Datisi, which I think is worth giving some value to. I think the vote on Nordom would be a bit strange from Datisi-scum (exception is if scum with Nord, but as a general rule at this stage of the game I tend to read people on the assumption of others being town). The waffly comment on me in 348 feels like something Datisi would just decide to not say as scum because it doesn’t add anything but is a thought I could see Datisi having as town.

[DeasVail]

Sorry, forgot to say reason for Nord vote being strange is that it would perpetuate the argument of Datisi being opportunistic

[DeasVail]

Fua, I’m interested in why you saw Nord as an easier route than HEM

[DeasVail]

Fua, I’m interested in why you saw Nord as an easier route than HEM

What do you mean by that?

I was referring to the post where you expressed a scumread of me in your readslist

[DeasVail]

I think the HEM wagon is sorta fast. Kinda makes me wary but maybe that still flips scum, idk.

i kinda thought the same for a bit, but isn't any wagon in a game this big gonna feel sorta off?

no? It seems like there's been way more cohesion ITG than in most games. It feels like most of the votes have been on HEM, Wu, Fua, Nord.

Datisi as well.

There hasn’t been a VC in a while.

Care to say who’s on me?

I have a good feeling it’s probably a lot of scum.

What gives you this feeling?

Or is it just a thing that you thought town would say?

[DeasVail]

I think the HEM wagon is sorta fast. Kinda makes me wary but maybe that still flips scum, idk.

i kinda thought the same for a bit, but isn't any wagon in a game this big gonna feel sorta off?

no? It seems like there's been way more cohesion ITG than in most games. It feels like most of the votes have been on HEM, Wu, Fua, Nord.

Datisi as well.

There hasn’t been a VC in a while.

Care to say who’s on me?

I have a good feeling it’s probably a lot of scum.

What gives you this feeling?

Or is it just a thing that you thought town would say?

The landscape from posts being left on a slot that couldn’t do anything while I couldn’t rep in yet.

By posts do you mean votes?

If so, I feel like that’s a pretty common occurrence.

[DeasVail]

Wu needs to step the fuck up and start contributing to the game.

Okay coach. Make sure to tell him in your little "neighborhood"

VOTE: Cape

This seems sus for reasoning I think the foundation for will be apparent. Not sure how to explain it yet but I am hoping my wording will evolve into something people can understand.

Both I believe are a bit strange for different reasons, definitely would flip Nord over Wu, but I do kinda think Wu just kinda has been a nonpresence in the game.

You’re never flipping me, ever. You’d have more luck flipping the mod or selling for a loss in the US real estate market.

Is this how you usually feel as town?

[DeasVail]

UNVOTE: MathBlade

[DeasVail]

I still have to read up but I’m feeling like voting for fua?

Okay I’m literally confused by Wu’s post

[DeasVail]

in some ways I don't really like people agreeing with that post tbh

Right? I thought it was a humorous tidbit mostly.

Maybe I’m just as bad for agreeing with this post though!

MathBlade why is fua town?

[DeasVail]

ugh I'm reading through and Nordom was so scummy. Like I know MathBlade is almost certainly town but woah how are they the same slot

[DeasVail]

Hmm, another question to fua on 1063. I must admit that my yeet read has dampened somewhat with them not having kept up their enthusiasm and activity, but I feel like your reasons for townreading Frogsterking could just as easily apply to Yeet. I know that explaining readslists is often a crapshoot, but I must say the readslist in 1063 strikes me as being a lot of words but doesn't actually give me a strong idea of

why

your reads are what they are.

[DeasVail]

Sigh....I kind of like fua for this exchange with fire.

This is where I'm at too. I'm not as sure about the read there now.

[DeasVail]

Of all the players here I would say I find myself nodding and agreeing the most with DeasVail's posts. Call it a mindmeld if you will, I remember he said something similar about me a while back. The similar lines of thinking would make me believe it is likely that he is also town as we seem to be looking out for similar things. If he was attempting to pocket me here, I don't think I would feel the same way about him, and moreover I'm not sure what his incentive is to overtly pocket a random player like me. Unless my earlier pushes were somehow dead on and he wanted to establish some sort of influence on me, but that feels like a stretch.

I can assure you that I am town! I think the hard thing about playing games as town (and something I'm particularly finding in this game) is that while the most fun is in working with other people to solve the game in a collegial way, that collegiality itself is often treated as suspicious.
I obviously hope that I have not been wrong in calling you town (and if I have been, then bravo), but I seriously have found your presence in the game super fun and hope to see more of you around.

[DeasVail]

Hmm, another question to fua on 1063. I must admit that my yeet read has dampened somewhat with them not having kept up their enthusiasm and activity, but I feel like your reasons for townreading Frogsterking could just as easily apply to Yeet. I know that explaining readslists is often a crapshoot, but I must say the readslist in 1063 strikes me as being a lot of words but doesn't actually give me a strong idea of

why

your reads are what they are.

I just wanted to give at least some reasoning behind where I ranked them. I’m not typing out a whole paragraph for everyone.

The difference between Frogster and Yeet is that I don’t think Frogster has any associates or an agenda he’s really pushing, unlike Malcolm’s note about Yeet (who has been pretty well-defended so far). That and his opening was so outlandish it makes me want to townbin him without thinking about it further.

I guess I also found a lot of Yeet's stuff outlandish in a way, hence my slight confusion, but this does give me a better idea of where you're at, so thank you.

[DeasVail]

I've also decided that Scorp is maybe prob town here.

I've decided the opposite because I'm running out of scum spots. Why is scorp maybe prob town?

[DeasVail]

No problem.

Remind me who you’re SRing right now again?

I'm still deciding honestly.

I think... and I know it's really boring, but I think we should just lim Wu

[DeasVail]

V/LA for 1-2 days

[DeasVail]

Catching up and I feel lost and confused. I don't like this feeling!

[DeasVail]

okay I'm good now

I know we should probably vote fua but that feels boring and fua is the most confusing slot to me, so in the interest of avoiding cognitive conflict...

VOTE: tenebrousluminary

Tenebro's approach to the game is one that is very mindful of what other people are doing and thinking, and they seem to be trying very hard to blend in, which is not town-motivated, only scum-motivated.

Some examples from towards the end of Day 1:

1490 - indicates the redevelopment of suspicion on Wu, at a time when Wu is the top wagon.

But then we get to...

1661, which occurs after momentum is shifting away from Wu towards others such as Ari. Tenebro clearly feels the need to post

something

, but the post itself imo does not indicate town. If they think Wu is scum, they could vote Wu or comment on how they don't like movement away from that wagon. Or talk about what they think of Ari or which other option they would much rather vote instead.
I could maybe be wrong about this if Tenebro is just not at all confident in expressing reads...

BUT then later we get 1956 where tenebro confidently declares that fua is scum, which is very much at odds with their previous low-confidence posting. This also only occurs after fua has started receiving pressure from others (e.g. fireisred, Ari).

Posts like 1961 do nothing more than piggyback off the town consensus that MathBlade's logic is bad (and similarly in 1973, but later Tenebro criticises Yeet for questioning MathBlade's actions (2292), when Yeet is the one receiving negative attention.

Tenebro's play reads as someone thinking very carefully about where the town is moving and what will be a socially accepted position/line of attack and questioning. It reads far less like someone from an uninformed position processing the game and generating their own thoughts/reads.

[DeasVail]

I was heavily critical of them in turn one but tenebros is coming across as more town for me as the game goes on. Post 1460 struck me as a genuine bit of townie frustration. Much as plenty of players got annoyed at MathBlade after their entry into the game, this didn't particularly feel like the type of post a mafia team member would make toward pretty much the first fully confirmed town player of the game.

I think some players have since used the heavy post-load and the fast-moving pace of the game to disguise actually giving reads or to also appear like frustrated townies (primarily Scorpious), but tenebros felt kinda genuine to me with this, was a bit of a gut-feeling at the time but a few of their posts since have felt more town too.

Seems we are moving in opposite directions.

I would challenge the point re: MathBlade, as I think criticising MathBlade would seem pretty safe to scum with almost everyone doing it.
Honestly, it seems sort of odd to me that uninformed Tenebro-town would criticise MathBlade in the same way given their expressed lack of confidence at other points.

[DeasVail]

Why should we vote Fua?

The vig thing. If someone promises to confirm themselves, the rigid part of me wants to hold them to it.

[DeasVail]

Latest postings from Eyes has been decent. I kinda like the double down on a... very meh post admittedly in 2427

I also think this is really bad. Like 2427 is really and is prob a scum post but cape saying that it was okish was pretty bad as well. Overnight I internalized it as too bad to be from scum and also thought that no way is there 3 scum in my hood (unless I'm wrong on Skitter or something) but it's still awful.

idk I would have a hard time seeing Eyes as scum at this point

The VP and skitter reads I can kind of follow even if they are not top-priority for me rn, but Eyes being scum would just be super strange to me.

[DeasVail]

I'm not in the mood for trying to explain it in a way that actually sounds good, but I just feel it okay?

Some of their posts are... like... how does scum come up with faking that level of disorganisation/paranoia/chaos? And if it's genuine, why do they post it? Like all the stuff about replacing and the confusion @ your self-vote and them clearly just not keeping up with the game but posting random shit that's probably going to look bad anyway.

[DeasVail]

Nero pushed me to talk about reads. I told him I'm not doing that in a hood with a potential scum

seems like a cop out

[DeasVail]

I believe scum see me as a mislim they would like to achieve.

what makes you think this?

[DeasVail]

Cape your hammer is not NAI because there is obvious scum motivation to do it.

I'm interested in why you think this.

Why is it in scum's best interests to rush through a Wu elim rather than let the day bloat out longer?

[DeasVail]

It feels like at least one of VP and Yeet is scum in this interaction.

What does this mean? What gives you this feeling? It looks like you just saying something for the sake of saying it

[DeasVail]

Not sold on VP.

im not either tbh but there's things that look scummy to me and i think it's a good wagon

I’d much prefer tene and Scorpio over VP.
VP’s play reminds me of the game I was recently with him. He was widely scumread but a PR. I think people perceive him as a viable target whatever his alignment. He could be scum but I trust HEM’s read of tene and Scorpio more.

hrmm, intereshting. i have not meta read VP yet maybe i should. i wouldn't have guessed that tho, if that's the case it makes me a little less interested. early on i had him read as strong poster relatively helpful townie, but some things made me start to not trust. if he often draws suspicion then... eh. could still be scum but im kinda less into it

monkey scumread tene tho? idr him talking about that in thread

He didn’t.

Let’s do Scorpio. Not as sold on tene anymore

VOTE: Scorpio

I think a Scorp vote is much less likely to hit scum than a tenebro one. I don't actually see how Scorp is scummy in any way

[DeasVail]

I want them to feel some pressure to contribute and I want to know why others are focusing on the other lurkers instead. I didn't think it was very likely my vote would result in an elim.

You did not demonstrate much effort into putting pressure on Save The Dragons to contribute

[DeasVail]

Not sold on VP.

im not either tbh but there's things that look scummy to me and i think it's a good wagon

I’d much prefer tene and Scorpio over VP.
VP’s play reminds me of the game I was recently with him. He was widely scumread but a PR. I think people perceive him as a viable target whatever his alignment. He could be scum but I trust HEM’s read of tene and Scorpio more.

hrmm, intereshting. i have not meta read VP yet maybe i should. i wouldn't have guessed that tho, if that's the case it makes me a little less interested. early on i had him read as strong poster relatively helpful townie, but some things made me start to not trust. if he often draws suspicion then... eh. could still be scum but im kinda less into it

monkey scumread tene tho? idr him talking about that in thread

He didn’t.

Let’s do Scorpio. Not as sold on tene anymore

VOTE: Scorpio

I think a Scorp vote is much less likely to hit scum than a tenebro one. I don't actually see how Scorp is scummy in any way

Find me a read Scorpio has.

I don't find this to be a convincing point

[DeasVail]

Nero pushed me to talk about reads. I told him I'm not doing that in a hood with a potential scum

seems like a cop out

actually on that train of thought

do you think vp has been quiet on his reads? if not, then this shade feels... misplaced

not particularly, at the time where i quoted it it felt like a weird way of throwing shade on Nero for something that honestly seemed quite reasonable to me, as well as excessive focus on the "purge the neighbourhood scum!!!" mindset.

I believe there have been more votes/suspicion on VP since then. I'm in a similar position to fireisred in that I think it's a good wagon but am more suspicious of tenebro.

PEdit: @MathBlade I am more suspicious of someone likely to be making up reads based on what the town is thinking (tenebro) than someone not even trying to make up reads (Scorp)

[DeasVail]

Nearly everyone suspects me to some degree or another, but so far I have produced town-indicative content in response to votes against me. I believe that this suspicion persisting in light of the fact I am scumhunting actively and unafraid to take stances indicates something. I believe that I am seen as weak and eventually pushable because I am newer.

What do you think is town-indicative about your content.

What stances have you been unafraid to take?

[DeasVail]

Nearly everyone suspects me to some degree or another, but so far I have produced town-indicative content in response to votes against me. I believe that this suspicion persisting in light of the fact I am scumhunting actively and unafraid to take stances indicates something. I believe that I am seen as weak and eventually pushable because I am newer.

What do you think is town-indicative about your content.

What stances have you been unafraid to take?

I'm not playing this game anymore.

Is this even a question I can reasonably answer? I am tired of talking about myself. I am constantly being hounded for explanations of everything I do by half the game in a way that does not seem to apply to everyone else, and then I'm attacked for being too defensive. In this case, no one will even care about my answer, since if I know something looks town, I could have done it to look town. Why should I bother?

I have offered reads contrary to popular perception on multiple occasions. If you cannot be bothered to go and look, at this point, neither can I. I'm sick of this.

I understand that this sort of process can be frustrating if you're town (or even if you're scum!), but I don't make these posts for no reason. My impression of your gameplay is that it is safe and largely following the momentum of the town. If I am wrong then I need you to prove it. When you say that you have "offered reads contrary to popular perception on multiple occasions" I need you to point it out to me because I don't see it.

You have said that you think scum is trying to mis-elim you, but I don't have a strong impression from you of who

are

the scum trying to miselim you. Regarding me and fire, arguably the two main players have been pushing you: You gave subtle indication of thinking fire might be scum early on but never went anywhere with it and most recently have expressed a strong townread. Apart from expressing that one thing I did looked town, you have not made much mention of a read of me. Is it a coincidence that myself and fire are also players that do not seem to be widely suspected?

The vote on STD came after I pointed out that you were largely following momentum, but it very much matches the safe play that I have expected from you. Voting a lower-activity player for pressure is not something scum would expect to be seen as controversial.

[DeasVail]

As an addendum to my post, I seriously do think that if tenebro thought that they were a miselim that scum is trying to achieve, that there would be more focus on players such as myself and fire, rather than... the players that everyone else is talking about.

[DeasVail]

Thank you for your response. I continue to think you are scum but there is nothing more that I expect you to answer at this stage.

[DeasVail]

I think it’s also an example of subtle flourishes to make me look more unreasonable than I am but eh

Above is in response to VP

[DeasVail]

Scorp do you truly believe that people should have been reading you as town based on your posting, and if so, why?

[DeasVail]

Scorp do you truly believe that people should have been reading you as town based on your posting, and if so, why?

up until about 45 minutes ago, nah

It seems surprising then that you would react in such a way to suspicion of you, insisting that it is random etc.

PEdit @tenebro: by dismissing reasoning against them as random and taking issue with people voting for them

[DeasVail]

I think there’s a clear contradiction in Scorpious’ recent posting but I don’t think it’s scum-indicative necessarily

[DeasVail]

Scorp do you truly believe that people should have been reading you as town based on your posting, and if so, why?

up until about 45 minutes ago, nah

It seems surprising then that you would react in such a way to suspicion of you, insisting that it is random etc.

PEdit @tenebro: by dismissing reasoning against them as random and taking issue with people voting for them

"Your reasoning sucks" isn't the same statement as "you should be townreading me." Kinda seems like you want him to look worse than the way what he's actually putting out looks.

I mean, the lack of clarity was why I asked. It kinda seems like you’re taking issue with the first thing from me that you can think of after I pressured you re: not doing that.
I feel like if you were seriously considering me as scum for it you would have waited to see where I went with the line of questioning to prove your hypothesis wrong or right.

[DeasVail]

And to boot, I don't think he knows Math is a mason.

This is going to make heads explode, and then I have to commute...

How would I know if anyone is a Mason? was it said? is it implied?

Did i just miss it in the 50 pages i missed?

be back later

It has been said repeatedly and at length, yes. And if you were scum, you'd have read it in your scum thread. You're not aware of it because you're town.

Q: A scum scorp would benefit from a strong roleclaim. So why does he claim VT at E-6?
A: He doesn't.

Your Q&A is flawed imo but I also don’t think Scorp is scum

[DeasVail]

I really think we should elim tenebro, like really really

[DeasVail]

I think there’s a clear contradiction in Scorpious’ recent posting but I don’t think it’s scum-indicative necessarily

Elaborate please?

The contradiction is Scorpious acting entitled as if it’s some great offence to suspect them, whilst acknowledging that there was no real reason for them to be read as town.
This sense of entitlement can easily come from town though, who know that they are town and thus innately expect to be read as such. In considering whether this could be scum lashing out against those suspecting them, I have decided against that being especially likely, as it is not done in a way that is attempting to manipulate the situation to make Scorp look better. There is a reasonable point to be made about STD saying that Yeet looks bad and then voting Scorp, but Scorp articulates the point sort of badly and messily, in a way that will probably look bad.

[DeasVail]

Pretty much all of HEM’s scumreads are wagons or sussed
Namely tene Scorpio and April. Skitter has her tell and stock equity goes way up if April is.

Been thinking about this today. I sort of think there are two possible things maybe going on here. Either:

1) it is close to what HEM thought and a lot of the low content/impact people are on the scum team.

Or

2) the scum are more well hidden than town has really pushed. Something like a Datisi/skitter or Cape/fire core.

I can see a HEM kill in either scenario, so that isn't too helpful. The wagon also doesn't help clarify a ton for me either.

If you have a strong inclination to do the low volume pool today Math, I may just give you my vote to use. Tenebros explanations maybe seem the most contrived, but his frustration also read sort of real. Idk

Do you think the frustration could be experienced by scum under suspicion? I guess that’s my running theory currently particularly given the severity of reaction after being suspected by a few people. I think that being under suspicion feels like a much bigger deal (in general) to scum than to town.

[DeasVail]

What a predictable post. You're beginning to get boring, Deas.

This does ring true to some extent. I don’t feel as exciting as I used to be! Ah well.

[DeasVail]

Oh, I didn’t realise Tene was talking about my friends. That’s interesting

[DeasVail]

Would you really?

[DeasVail]

Did you not read overnight at all?

oh hey, this reminds me of the fact that scorpious entered the day complaining about how many pages there are and how he didn't read, after a period of 48 hours where there we absolutely no posts, isn't that wild haha

To be fair, I often avoid reading during night because of the flawed reasoning that I might die of someone else unexpected might die which would change things.
Of course, I am just lazy, but it’s not hard to come up with a bad excuse!

[DeasVail]

*or someone else

[DeasVail]

ackchually i don't think there's a huge difference between someone who didn't read because they didn't read the game and someone who didn't read because they just replaced in not reading throughout the night, but this seems like an unproductive conversation and i'm sorry everyone is latching onto that, i was hoping it was gonna spark a more productive convo elsewhere

it made sense in my head okay

idk I thought it was fun

[DeasVail]

the "self-consciousness" is scummy if coming from a new player, but nai if coming from an experienced player, and they've claimed they're experienced so /shrug

Do you think their play if town is consistent with that of an experienced player?

[DeasVail]

the "self-consciousness" is scummy if coming from a new player, but nai if coming from an experienced player, and they've claimed they're experienced so /shrug

Do you think their play if town is consistent with that of an experienced player?

You don't need to phrase every attack as a question

What do you mean?

[DeasVail]

But seriously, I'm not sure what you mean exactly in regards to that post in particular.

(@Tenebro)

[DeasVail]

i definitely got some experienced vibes from some of their posts, so yeah, i don't see why not. "experienced in mafia" is a very wide descriptor.

and yet you used it as a descriptor to inform your read of tenebro, so I kind of need to know what you mean by it and how it applies to tenebro's posts. Otherwise I feel like you are being dismissive of the scumread of tenebro, which also raises questions.

[DeasVail]

But seriously, I'm not sure what you mean exactly in regards to that post in particular.

(@Tenebro)

Just a couple of times now I've noticed you asking someone else a leading question where the answer is I'm scum. You can just say it!

I have though?

[DeasVail]

Tenebro, it feels as if you are accusing me of being vague and indirect when I have very directly stated that I want you eliminated (which you have also taken issue with).

When engaging with VP, I clearly stated why I disagreed with his assessment.

In regards to Datisi, I am trying to get a solid idea of what is actually informing his read of you.

Use of buzz phrases such as "leading questions" and implying that I am not being forthcoming appear like subtle ways of discrediting me and my approach.

[DeasVail]

i said that some of the posts fire linked are scummy if coming from a new player but nai if coming from an experienced one. "experienced in mafia" is exactly what it says on the tin, someome who has played a decent amount of games so that they are comfortable in the game making posts that are, on first look, "awkward". it doesn't mean that their posts have to be amazing or that their reads have to have a certain level of accuracy. all it means is that it's someone comfortable in the game posting how they wish without freezing from the pressure they may get from it. that make sense?

that does make sense, but what is it about tenebro's play here that makes you think they are experienced to the extent where the posts fire linked are nai?

[DeasVail]

Tenebro, it feels as if you are accusing me of being vague and indirect when I have very directly stated that I want you eliminated (which you have also taken issue with).

When engaging with VP, I clearly stated why I disagreed with his assessment.

In regards to Datisi, I am trying to get a solid idea of what is actually informing his read of you.

Use of buzz phrases such as "leading questions" and implying that I am not being forthcoming appear like subtle ways of discrediting me and my approach.

I think the questions make you sound genuinely interested in the answers and offer an air of reasonability, but I don't think you really are trying to have an earnest conversation in either case.

Okay sure

[DeasVail]

for one, that they kept/keep posting with the same or lower level of "awkwardness" despite catching heat, a newer player would've cracked. i'll to through their iso later to give specific examples of things that struck me as experienced if you'd like

That would be cool, but no rush as I recognize you have other things to get to!

Also I sort of feel as if tenebro has cracked, but maybe you mean something else.

[DeasVail]

Whoever thinks of saying this applies to me first gets detention.

I mean, I didn't think it applied to you and I'm not sure why you would need to add this qualifier but you don't have to respond to that necessarily if you don't want to. Just an observation.

[DeasVail]

by cracked i usually mean freeze and stop posting, but it can also be someone obvscuming to the point where anyone with a quarter of a brain could see the person's scum. the fact that neither of the two happened yet tells me they're probably not going to happen.

ahh, got it. I've rarely seen anything like that happen, even in newbie games, but most of my mafia playing was many years ago.

[DeasVail]

I guess my position is that tenebro does not strike me as someone playing with experience and confidence, regardless of their alignment, and I am if anything concerned by the inconsistencies between periods of not knowing who to vote for/not feeling comfortable pushing a non-main target and occasional other periods of confidently asserting someone as scum (fua). I think that self-consciousness is something that is very hard to shake off as scum, and while I agree that it is more prominent in newer players, I don't see tenebro's experience level as super critical to my read given the evidence in-thread of low confidence.
In regards to continuing to post, I think that can be just as much a personality/playstyle thing as an experience thing. On the rare occasion where I have seen someone ghost as scum, it's just as often been experienced players as newer players.

That's my take at least.

[DeasVail]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88600

laplacian from my last game is a decent example, i think

thanks, I see what you mean

[DeasVail]

They regularly deflect when accusations are thrown their away to try and move the discussion away from the issue at-hand with the continual idea basically every player questioning them is being dishonest.

In my opinion this is the most important point re tenebro.

[DeasVail]

I'm going to sleep on things and reassess tenebro in the morning.

[DeasVail]

I think I have gotten myself into a tunnel and after a reassessment I am no longer sure of this read.

UNVOTE: Tenebro

Reading through tenebro’ Iso again, I am more inclined to think that the dismissive nature is an unhelpful way of communicating, but I don’t actually think it lines up with the scum-tenebro image that I had created for myself. If I thought that tenebro was scum trying to blend in and appease, then their approach to suspicion in fact does the opposite.

I am happy to discuss with anyone regarding this, and would particularly be interested if anyone thinks I am making a mistake in backing off this, but I think it’s more likely that tenebro-scum was a world I wanted to be true rather than one that actually is true.

[DeasVail]

UNVOTE: Tenebrousluminary

Just in case it needs to be in full.

[DeasVail]

STD/Malcolm still my highest scum reads. There's probably one in the main mix of things, I just don't know where it's at currently.

i think STD is town, he seems pure to me, but i could see a world where malcolm is maf

This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say.

(I don’t mean to be so closely aligned with Fire on reads, it just happened that way)

[DeasVail]

April, looking through Malcolm and VP, I would feel better about eliminating VP at this point. Was there a particularly compelling reason you had for not eliminating VP? Apologies if I've missed it.

[DeasVail]

I will work on summarising my thoughts on VP over the course of the day/morning (depending on how much time I get at work) and based on my thoughts so far that will probably end in a vote but maybe I'll change my mind! Ooo the suspense

[DeasVail]

Thoughts on VP:

I think it's already been mentioned, but imo VP's posting is fine up until 684 and the follow-up in 685. It has a really strained feel and seems to be pushing an agenda of discrediting Nero in a public space.
This seems to be part of a trend of criticism of Nero that to me honestly appears exaggerated in an attempt to appear to have genuine town thought processes, but largely comes across as forced. 2657 "you could just be terrible town here" is a good example I think.

The other main thing for me is the Day 2 vote progression. I don't like the vote on tenebros in 3392 nor the rationalisation in 3479. I think it's fairly obvious that a big part of VP voting tenebro (as town or scum) would be because it was a more popular wagon than VP's other scumreads, yet VP seems to avoid admitting that, and the change of vote in 3502 seems to be pretending that the fact that the tenebro wagon fell apart is not why VP's changing his vote.

I don't strongly think that VP is scum, but there is no one who I strongly think is scum. Most importantly, I don't have strong reason to think that VP is town, that would make me question the slight qualms I have with his play. VP is also someone that, if scum, I wouldn't necessarily expect to have stronger qualms with than what I do now.

[DeasVail]

I could have just stayed on tene, what is the scum motivation for me to get off that?

Tene was obviously not being eliminated at that point though? And trying to push that through yourself would have made you look a lot worse.

[DeasVail]

Not sure why you would think that you could have just stayed on tene

[DeasVail]

VOTE: VP Baltar

[DeasVail]

If I'm scum in that situation, I could just sit back and see how the day develops and wind town!tenebros up into more emotional outbursts. Instead, I choose to go back to a wagon I think has an actual strong case that isn't super popular.

The key to finding scum is to look at motivations. That's always the giveaway. There is no clear motivation there.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

You are in serious danger of being eliminated. Tenebro was a very viable alternative for you until I and then Fire backed off. At that point, sitting back will not work. Clearly the main pushers of the tenebro wagon were no longer reading their outbursts as scummy.

So what do you do then? There is no easy alternative. The best thing you can do is pursue a scumread you can pretend to believe in and hope people buy it.

The fact that you are pretending there are other viable scum play is concerning.

[DeasVail]

You are in serious danger of being eliminated. Tenebro was a very viable alternative for you until I and then Fire backed off. At that point, sitting back will not work. Clearly the main pushers of the tenebro wagon were no longer reading their outbursts as scummy.

Also, just want you on record here, you're townreading tene now correct?

Yes.

Also I’ll be as dramatic as I like

[DeasVail]

I am noting DeasVail's big vote. That vote felt heavier than the other votes, which could be a sign of scum taking action.

Big mood

I’m interested in what your hypothesis is regarding “scum taking action”.

[DeasVail]

Serious question: Are we looking for scum or are we looking for things we don't like in each other's playstyles? because it seems to me everybody has been looking on the game from their own perspective and how the other should be playing not whether the other is making something that looks like it's scum driven.

Also everybody (in general and not just in this game) assume they are smart and everybody else is dumb. "scum will push this and not that" may only work if -say- someone is being tricky, but I don't think having a different opinion or changing one's opinion or some other shit that every player does regardless of their alignment qualifies as a reason to scum read someone.

@Deas: regarding 3702 what would you have done in that situation? Imagine that you were not being pushed at one point and then the tide changes and you are the leading wagon. Would you still sit back and relax or would you try to at least defend yourself? I think we both know the answer to that and that -again- is regardless of the color of your PM.

Eyes, I expect people to defend themselves. I have never indicated otherwise.

[DeasVail]

I don’t appreciate the categorisation of my thoughts as not looking for what scum would be doing.

[DeasVail]

Thoughts on VP:

I think it's already been mentioned, but imo VP's posting is fine up until 684 and the follow-up in 685. It has a really strained feel and seems to be pushing an agenda of discrediting Nero in a public space.
This seems to be part of a trend of criticism of Nero that to me honestly appears exaggerated in an attempt to appear to have genuine town thought processes, but largely comes across as forced. 2657 "you could just be terrible town here" is a good example I think.

The other main thing for me is the Day 2 vote progression. I don't like the vote on tenebros in 3392 nor the rationalisation in 3479. I think it's fairly obvious that a big part of VP voting tenebro (as town or scum) would be because it was a more popular wagon than VP's other scumreads, yet VP seems to avoid admitting that, and the change of vote in 3502 seems to be pretending that the fact that the tenebro wagon fell apart is not why VP's changing his vote.

I don't strongly think that VP is scum, but there is no one who I strongly think is scum. Most importantly, I don't have strong reason to think that VP is town, that would make me question the slight qualms I have with his play. VP is also someone that, if scum, I wouldn't necessarily expect to have stronger qualms with than what I do now.

I think the pushing on Nero is scummy because it is more focused on pushing Nero as terrible town than it is on determining his alignment. It also is exaggerated to the point where it feels to me more like scum attempting to emulate townie frustration than true Town thought process.

I think the Day 2 voting is scummy because the votes are presented in a disingenuous way. The tenebro vote comes at a time when tenebro clearly looks bad and is VP’s main alternative wagon, but VP’s vote is justified in such a way that seems an attempt to have the vote not appear survivalistic. The move off tenebro and subsequent lack of attention there appears more influenced by the collapse of the wagon than a change in read, however VP presents this as deciding that he wants to push a scumread that he feels strongly about.

I don’t think it is a slam dunk scumread, but I think there is play that is scum-indicative and I have put a great deal of thought into my vote. I am aware that it is a significant decision.

[DeasVail]

VP Baltar (7): Scorpious, tenebrousluminary, Nero Cain, Frogsterking, fireisredsir, MathBlade, Deasvail


Honestly, Fire and DeasVail stand out hard for me here. I don't think they're S/S, I said that earlier, but this might be enough for me to believe one of them are scum here.


For what it's worth, I think STD had some townie energy when they voted at me, just feels like mislead town not really being here, plus I semi trust the ones who said STD was town, but also noted Frog not seeing it either, so they still not in blue.

1 of DV/Fire, then 1 of Scorpious/Frog/Tene/Nero probably. And I town read 3 of that 4 pool.


My way too early prediction theory right now is:

Malcolm, Fire, Scorpius, Skitter slot

So you’re placing your trust in me/Fire in regards to STD whilst also hypothesising that one of must be scum? (As much as I am keeping Fire-scum in mind as a possibility I think it’s a logical fallacy that one of us must be scum due to our very similar movements)

[DeasVail]

This game is incredibly boring..

What makes it boring? How do you propose we spice it up?

I like this question a lot

[DeasVail]

I think disagreeing with someone is perfectly valid and healthy for the game, but I think VP’s commentary on Nero goes beyond this, whilst truly thinking about Nero’s alignment takes a backseat

Above is @eyes

[DeasVail]

I think disagreeing with someone is perfectly valid and healthy for the game, but I think VP’s commentary on Nero goes beyond this, whilst truly thinking about Nero’s alignment takes a backseat

Above is @eyes

Do you think Nero or I is the lead instigator here? This is a wild ass take on those interactions. I've been extremely reasonable with Nero.

I don’t think you were being unreasonable.

[DeasVail]

I respect and appreciate the advocacy for a wagon on Malcolm, but my stakes are still on VP at this point

[DeasVail]

VOTE: Malcolm

Willing to give this a try but I reserve the right to retract my vote if I am not satisfied with the result.

Fair.

__

Now I want to explain why this works.

We have a vote from Eyes without a face on Malcolm.

That immediately added a possibility of a wagon. if Malcolm flipped scum, I wouldn't consider Eyes without a face as scum anymore with the given action taken, because this was a doomvote to their partner if momentum picks up.

If Malcolm is town, eyes scum, then yeah, this is a great vote for Eyes because I'm gonna take the brunt of the damage from a misfade on Malcolm.

Fwiw, I was already about to move Eyes up a notch after liking a post of theirs on the last page. I don't think they're scum trying to buddy up with me, I feel like they genuinely are starting to see my perspective.


This is the type of analysis and info I get from playing in the present time, and I effectively do this with every action taken in the game, and then try to associate what's most likely, and cause situations where people have to take action.

Does that make sense?

I think Eyes is town, but it’s not really dependent on or even affected by Malcolm’s alignment really.

[DeasVail]

VOTE: Malcolm

at first i didn't buy the "im for sure getting elimmed so here are my last words... take me away..." from VP considering he isn't really in immediate danger of a lim, but. maybe i do buy it. i'm ok with seeing what happens here instead

I don’t buy it and think pre-elim effort posting is largely NAI (although appreciated regardless!) but I’m not opposed to Malcolm being voted. I’ll do a deeper dive into my read on Malcolm probably tonight Aus time.

[DeasVail]

VOTE: Malcolm

at first i didn't buy the "im for sure getting elimmed so here are my last words... take me away..." from VP considering he isn't really in immediate danger of a lim, but. maybe i do buy it. i'm ok with seeing what happens here instead

What do you mean I'm not in danger of getting limmed? I was at E-2. That is pretty much the definition of in danger on D2 of a large.

Tbf I do think VP is correct here.

[DeasVail]

VOTE: Malcolm

at first i didn't buy the "im for sure getting elimmed so here are my last words... take me away..." from VP considering he isn't really in immediate danger of a lim, but. maybe i do buy it. i'm ok with seeing what happens here instead

I don’t buy it and think pre-elim effort posting is largely NAI (although appreciated regardless!)

but I’m not opposed to Malcolm being voted.

I’ll do a deeper dive into my read on Malcolm probably tonight Aus time.

At what point have you suspected me so far? This is just a really weird wagon, makes no sense.

I have not. By “voted” I mean receiving votes rather than being eliminated. I haven’t decided whether I’m okay with that yet and need to spend some time thinking about my read on you. Your play has not stuck out to me either way so far.

[DeasVail]

I'm more thinking you could be scum than suspecting you, if that makes sense.

meant VP not you. your POV makes a lot of sense and i think it is p reasonable for you to think i am possible scum from the perspective of actions and movement and all that jazz. i also have been considering a possible world where DV is scum for a while now, so that part makes sense to me

This makes me a little sad because I’d like to think that the vibing is genuine but it’s okay, I get it.

PEdit: I mean, a null read being eliminated is something I’m totally okay with, but there’s probably enough from you for me to reflect on to form either a town or scumread, I just haven’t really done it yet.

[DeasVail]

when you first brought up malcolm, him and VP as a pairing was my first thought. i think it makes sense with the tene wagon, and some of the interactions early. but that's from the perspective of thinking VP is the scummier one, so idk if it's as clear of a connection in the other direction

If you think we are partners, why are you getting off my much bigger wagon?

Tbh I was tempted by the wagon too because OOO SHINY and had to tell myself to stay strong

[DeasVail]

Malcolm, I think your pressuring of VP is entirely within the range if what scumbuddies would do, just as an aside.

[DeasVail]

Can someone actually outline what the actual case is against me beyond vibes and players who replaced in and made their decision on me without reading back on any previous posts? Like I'm keen to respond in the morning but there is not a single post here that makes a solid case for anything resembling elimination.

Does there need to be a case?

[DeasVail]

Sorry Fire, but none of this makes sense from the point of me and VP being teammates. I'm genuinely baffled at this because your reads have been solid so far but VP has consistently been someone I've applied pressure to. There's no incentive to most of these posts from a mafia POV given VP has been under consistent pressure.

what makes you think my reads are solid? i don't feel very confident in them

also disagree, those kind of posts are very in the range of what maf partners will do

lol

[DeasVail]

Like why is April's slot under so little pressure? It was heavily pushed on day one, Ari left the game, April came in, argued they weren't mafia based on their lack of posting, despite being a replace-in, then accused me and admitted they had no clue as to what was actually going on in the game while doing so, and yet has stuck to that wagon since. It's just such a nonsense case and it's ridiculous town are even contemplating it at the moment.

Did you ever pressure the slot?

(I honestly don’t remember and can’t easily check rn so it’s a genuine question)

[DeasVail]

Can someone actually outline what the actual case is against me beyond vibes and players who replaced in and made their decision on me without reading back on any previous posts? Like I'm keen to respond in the morning but there is not a single post here that makes a solid case for anything resembling elimination.

Does there need to be a case?

Yes? We're over 3,000 posts in, what are you doing if you are considering eliminating someone without a case for them?

I guess that could be a mafia theory disagreement then. I feel like most “cases” are made to justify what is actually much less elaborate reasoning behind reads.

[DeasVail]

when you first brought up malcolm, him and VP as a pairing was my first thought. i think it makes sense with the tene wagon, and some of the interactions early. but that's from the perspective of thinking VP is the scummier one, so idk if it's as clear of a connection in the other direction

If you think we are partners, why are you getting off my much bigger wagon?

Tbh I was tempted by the wagon too because OOO SHINY and had to tell myself to stay strong

Lol, I do not understand.

But you have to admit, if you believe me and Malcom are scum, you'd have no reason to Switch wagons there.

I was thinking about what I’d do as scum.

If scum with you, obv just stay on you.
If scum with Malcolm, probably switch.
If scum with both of you as town, double down on voting VP to appear “genuine” and “passionate”.

But idk if others would act like me as scum.

[DeasVail]

If you think we are partners, why are you getting off my much bigger wagon?

i think it's a possibility. and cause i think april has cool ideas and im a big fan of the sudden unexpected wagon to see if it throws scum off their balance

This is fake as fuck

Eh, it doesn’t seem that way to me

[DeasVail]

My first impression from Malcolm’s reaction is that it comes from town but I will need some time to process.

[DeasVail]

i have the opposite impression, his reaction is what made me decide to switch

Something is very wrong then!

It will probably be a few hours at least before I can explain my thoughts.

[DeasVail]

Look through my ISO and analyse all my mentions of VP if you want. It is fundamentally not the ISO of teammates, there is no need for me to so consistently suspect them at this point in the game.

Your intense focus on the viability of a you-VP mafia team is very curious!

[DeasVail]

Look through my ISO and analyse all my mentions of VP if you want. It is fundamentally not the ISO of teammates, there is no need for me to so consistently suspect them at this point in the game.

Your intense focus on the viability of a you-VP mafia team is very curious!

I note you aren't addressing the points being made here.

?

[DeasVail]

VOTE: fireisred

Nooooo not my vibe buddy!

[DeasVail]

Look through my ISO and analyse all my mentions of VP if you want. It is fundamentally not the ISO of teammates, there is no need for me to so consistently suspect them at this point in the game.

Your intense focus on the viability of a you-VP mafia team is very curious!

I note you aren't addressing the points being made here.

?

What would be the point of me getting into an argument with you over whether you could or could not possibly be mafia with VP?

[DeasVail]

VOTE: fireisred

Nooooo not my vibe buddy!

You're getting played

What if I don’t mind that though?

[DeasVail]

VP do you actually believe what you’re saying?

It almost feels like you’re trolling at this point.

[DeasVail]

Look through my ISO and analyse all my mentions of VP if you want. It is fundamentally not the ISO of teammates, there is no need for me to so consistently suspect them at this point in the game.

Your intense focus on the viability of a you-VP mafia team is very curious!

It matches up with his desire for concrete points to rebut.

Good point, and that was a concern of mine too, since I think scum are more likely to want something solid to defend against. But I don’t know, the chaos and the insistence of how it’s impossible that he and VP are scum together struck me as strange in a not-scummy sort of way.

PEdit: wtf

[DeasVail]

Fire, I will forgive you for all your transgressions if you return to the light

[DeasVail]

I’m sorry for thinking you were scum, tene

[DeasVail]

How do people read Datisi?

Eh

I’m sort of waiting for his take on recent events before progressing my read further

[DeasVail]

Are we over this VPB wagon yet?

Nah.

Also like it or not, you have to face the fact that at least one of me/Fire is town.

[DeasVail]

I think people just don't want me to be right, but frankly, I only think I know 1 scum for sure.

This is hella hard to get this wagon going on a slot I feel nobody's really defending.

I don’t really agree. Not many players have posted since the wagon took off, it hasn’t been very long, and not many active players have /not/ voted Malcolm.

[DeasVail]

Okay regarding Malcolm:

859 and the follow-up in 872 is mildly town. Malcolm is calling out what they believe is scummy behaviour in Yeet, a player they otherwise townread. After fua expresses agreement with it, Malcolm clarifies that they still think Yeet may be town. Gives an agenda-less vibe, an impression more of town saying what they think than scum aiming for a particular outcome.
1093 reveals nuance to the Nordom read and also provides evidence that Malcolm will push someone without feeling the need for it to lead to a solid read. I feel like a more common scum approach is more one-dimensional. Pressure player -> read output. Scum don't want to waste the material they have! Whereas Malcolm is coming up with material and then being like "actually nah", which is not conclusively town but town-indicative imo.

Despite these things I liked from early game, one notable thing is the players that Malcolm has chosen to pressure at this point in the game. People like Wu, Nordom, Yeet, Tene - who I would classify as juicier pressure targets, whilst he chose to defend Datisi. a more established player.
^That said, the shift from tenebro to VP in 2450 and 2451 is a positive direction.

I don't have much else to say up until the reaction to the newly formed wagon. I find the outrage at the wagon to be entitled in a towny way. The "why is April's slot under so little pressure?" feels like genuine disbelief that a person Malcolm thinks of as scummy is rounding up the town.

^I am not entirely convinced of this and will think again on it tomorrow but that's currently where i'm at.

--

Overall I'm not convinced Malcolm is town, but I'd class it as a mild townread overall. I continue to believe that VP is scum to the point where I would like to push for his elimination. I think that there has been a play shift since around the time of my vote, where VP has stopped thinking about their reasoning and has started just spewing nonsense (see the attack on fire filled with logic holes and misinterpretations that others have obviously noticed). I don't know the exact reason for this shift, but I don't think it comes from town and could be a scum attempt to look more town and "loose". I have seen a similar sort of thing before from experienced players as scum under pressure, and while I don't think VP is scum

because

of that anecdotal evidence, it somewhat reassures me that I'm not misreading something that I should be finding townie.

[DeasVail]

My point is that DV is saying it is a fact at least one of you is town. That's not true from April's perspective, so either DV is trying to bullshit, or is implying they have inside knowledge. Like I said, reading comprehension.

ignoring the part that you were objectively wrong about in order to pretend that you were right, nice, very cool.

if deas is town, it's a fact that he is town. here, I'll say it too: "it's a fact that at least one of me/VP is town". he did say April had to face that fact, so i won't die on that hill since i think it's ambiguous enough that your interpretation has some merit. but saying that he was saying one is definitely scum is just completely wrong

In reply to all this ridiculousness:

I was aware of the fact that it is not /fact/ from April-town's perspective that at least one of me/Fire is town, but that is the theory/assumption that April is making. A lot of April's posts imply dismissive of me/Fire's opinion based on the fact that one of us is scum, which ignores the fact that April thinks one of is town. There is also the added thing, as fire points out, of me knowing I'm town, so I know it is a fact that at least one of me/fire is town, and so I also know that statement to be correct and that April does need to face that fact.

I also agree with fire that it's a very strange thing to pick on from VP, and fire has said what I meant about the shift from VP initially seeming to have reasonable reads to no longer actually making sense. I am aware of the possibility that fire is aligning reads strongly to mine to have me townread them, but VP's nonsense arguments do not make me inclined to trust him over fire. And hey, even if this is some ridiculous pocket by fire, having a townread from me at the expense of attracting the suspicion of the rest of the game does... not seem worthwhile.

[DeasVail]

so either DV is trying to bullshit, or is implying they have inside knowledge

you also don't actually think I'm scum so this is bs

[DeasVail]

In regards to the VP read, it is something that I am constantly reevaluating and constantly checking myself on to make sure I'm not losing sight of what I should be townreading and what I should be scumreading. I had to catch myself going too hard on tene, who I am now pretty sure is town.

At this point though, I really struggle to see VP as town. I don't know why I am reading things so similar to how fire is reading things (and as much as VP will say that fire's pocketing me, there are many things that fire has said before me, which I have also strongly agreed with), but I am completely with fire in thinking that VP's play earlier did not at all match his stated approach of accepting his elimination and working out how to leave things in the best position for the town. Instead, VP's been slinging chaos and confusion around, and I don't believe that town-VP would see this as a helpful place to leave town in if he thought he was going to be eliminated. An example of the "nonsense" I refer to is 3875 where he implies that fire as town cannot think that VP is "decently likely scum" and also be "unsure", using that as the basis for an attack. This is not town thinking carefully about what they leave behind after they're eliminated. 3882 similarly is something that I highly doubt VP actually believes, based on his play earlier in the game.

In regards to VP's scumread on fire and the belief that fire is pocketing me, he posts snarky comments about how this is the case, but where are the actual attempts to convince me (someone who he believes is town and being pocketed by fire) of this? Instead it's just snark and focus on engaging with the people VP sees as his allies. If VP is town, I believe he would expect that ultimately I would come to see this. But the dismissal of me and lack of attempt to show me the light does not match with this. I think VP is playing more like scum, who has written me off as someone who will continue scumreading him, and is focusing on maintaining his existing allies for survival.

[DeasVail]

I'm really just feelin good vibes from yeet, eyes, and hell even Nero. I also think VPB and Tene are both town.


@Titus - I think DeasV and Fire likely have 1 scum in them, curious on your thoughts on those slots.

Why do you think VPB is town?

From what you've said so far, I would gather that it's a gamestate read/influenced by your scumread on Malcolm, but if there's more to it then I would like to know.

[DeasVail]

then again ig he did disappear last friday too so maybe that's just an irl schedule thing. kinda weird tho that he said multiple times "i will defend myself tomorrow!!" and then never came back

On this, I think that if he didn't have support this would make more sense, but I think it is very encouraging for scum to have even one vocal town member saying they're not scum, so I feel like even me saying that I thought Malcolm could be more likely town would... motivate him somewhat if he were scum. An exception could be if he and VP were both scum, which would be understandably demotivating.

[DeasVail]

His play doesn't make sense coming from scum in this position. He's had multiple outs to get out of this, but he isn't really caring to change his reads too much, and have been pretty stagnant, which to me is coming across as town who's getting pushed, and has done a spider leap trying to hold themselves up between two walls to avoid falling after being thrown into an acid pit by his own townies.

I don't think the reads have been that stagnant. Frogsterking pet scumread turned into a fireisred pet scumread. Previously scumread tene but then stopped talking about that after me/fire backed off and is now treating tene as town. At least as of this post, remains fence-sitting re: Malcolm, probably hesitant to opportunistically switch wagons but also not wanting to close it off as an opportunity. It makes a fair bit of sense as scumplay to me

[DeasVail]

VP what would you be doing differently if you were scum this game?

Not listing so many people off and drawing so much attention to myself. I probably would have played nice with Nero earlier and wouldn't have opened the day in a very aggressive manner. I'd be calling town players who are on the wrong track smart and be playing with my long term survivability in mind.

Yeah, this kind of checks out, honestly. I'm once again fine with you being town here.

I'm not bothered enough to look back and fact check this, but I recall VP not long ago saying that the aggressive play was NAI?

(Also if scum he's not going to say that people trying to elim him are smart)

[DeasVail]

Of the main wagons, my preference is:

VP >>>> Malcolm >> Scorp

I still think VP is scum.
Malcolm I am not totally sure of and I can see a world where he is mafia. The theme of "but there are others worse than me!" in 4196 could be scum genuinely confused as to why they are being pushed for reasons that they see as applying to weaker town players. Obviously this could come from town in a similar mindset but it is something that I tend to associate a bit more with scum. Despite my reservations, I have to admit that I wouldn't be devastated at this elim because 1) if malcolm's scum then woohoo, 2) if malcolm's town then I feel it forces people, particularly April to re-evaluate the game in a way that I feel would be overall positive.

I don't townread Scrop as strongly as tene does, but the cases against Scorp don't convince me of scum motivation and my guess would still be... town, I guess. Main reason for this being worse than a Malcolm elim imo is because the reaction to a scorp-town flip would be "eh... moving on", while I think a Malcolm town-flip would have more positive impact.

[DeasVail]

At least as of this post, remains fence-sitting re: Malcolm, probably hesitant to opportunistically switch wagons but also not wanting to close it off as an opportunity.

I already voted Malcom.

Apologies, by "this post" I meant the April post quoted, but I realise that was unclear.

[DeasVail]

I’m going to stick with VP as long as it looks viable but will make sure I’m around to vote elsewhere if needed

[DeasVail]

Mathblade so fetch rn

[DeasVail]

I’m going to stick with VP as long as it looks viable but will make sure I’m around to vote elsewhere if needed

I dunno about you but I don't go on wagons because they are "viable"

At this stage of the fat, if my vote is not going to get someone eliminated, what’s the point of it?

[DeasVail]

*of the day

[DeasVail]

I’m not sure how much time I’ll have to go over things the next few days but I’ll be reconsidering everything including the VP read.

[DeasVail]

I would prefer to park the thought of potential Enchant-scum for now

[DeasVail]

I’m not reading properly, but also this

I don't know how this game got worse overnight

[DeasVail]

I’m going to have to be

V/LA over the weekend

but I’ll be back into the swing of things on Monday my time.

[DeasVail]

My heart is on the VP wagon but I want to actually read up before doing that.

[DeasVail]

Fire, if I flip town, will you stop sheeping Nero and listen to Titus?

acting like im sheeping nero when we both know i have more reasons than nero does is kinda :///

but i will reassess things ofc

You do have more reasons, but few of them are meaningful beyond strange paranoia and gut. You're lending legitimacy to Nero's marketing campaign, so it definitely is sheeping.

And I'm gonna need more from you than reassessment. This game needs strong town leaders and Titus is going to be about it after I'm dead. You have potential, but you need to think more critically. There is no way you should be limming me over Nero today if you want to solve thus 1v1. So if that is going to be the level of play, I need you to step it up.

Uhm definitionally doesn’t solving one solve the other in a 1v1?

I'm a much higher value asset to town. If you're going to take a chance by repeating this bad wagon AGAIN today, which is very much what you're doing, you risk less by limming Nero first. When you're wrong and I flip green, you've burned someone who actually has the ability to see through the nonsense happening, and would have essentially been confirmed town with a Nero scum flip. I'm very confident my theory about D2 is close, if not correct.

Dude if you’re town you really need to check yourself imo. Reading some of your posts in recent pages, you’re just putting people down and not empowering or building up town members which is what good townplay is.

I would like to talk with the VP voters about what their thoughts are on VP’s negging of the town. I like to think that it is from scum, where scum obviously doesn’t care for the demotivating effect on the town. I also could see the scum motivation in going hard on emulating day townie arrogance. But I also want to think about whether scum actually thinks to post things like the lobotomy stuff without first thinking “hmm maybe I shouldn’t post that”, while town in VP’s position would be “looser”.

Thoughts?

[DeasVail]

VP's PoE to victory:

Town to probably town:

VP Baltar
MathBlade
Galron
fireisredsir
Titus
April Ludgate
Cape90

Scum are almost all here:

Frogsterking
Save The Dragons
Nero Cain
Eyes without a face

Get out of my dreams and into my car (aka, work a little bit to prove you are town if you're in this pool):

DeasVail
Enchant
tenebrousluminary
Scorpious

@titus, I don't think much has changed about this reads list. Bottom pile is the null to scummy folks, and I'd guess there is max 1 scum in there. I probably wouldn't lim in that pile until later if I didn't have to. Either some of those folks will rise to the occassion and start separating themselves as more townie, night actions will help (possibly unlikely unless we have another weak investigative), or y'all kill the scum RB and Enchant really is a vig who can clear out some detritus.

Only other caveat I'd say is if Nero doesn't flip scum somehow after I'm gone, I still think Cape is town and Math is right about galron. Statistically, I think that's unlikely and you should trust the yeet clear until flips say otherwise.

Outside dark horse is April with that weird claim start of day, but probably town who felt like shit after the malcom lim and decided overnight that mercy is the only option. Good luck this game, you're going to need it.

Re: the above reads list, I feel like you should have enough content from myself and tene at the very least to have some kind of read there, yet you seem to blame us for not having worked enough. I don’t know how active tene has been this game day, but in my case it feels a bit like opportunistically exploiting my lower activity this game day, as I feel I have been quite actively involved prior to this day.

[DeasVail]

I think the way that Frogster is pushing me is pretty towny

[DeasVail]

let's just not end day and wait for april to come back. i can't lead for shit

Also apologies if you have covered this elsewhere (and feel free to link to a relevant post if you have), but how strongly do you think April is town? (Fwiw I have to sort my reads still. My Day 2 read was town, but some posts that I've skimmed from Day 3 seemed a bit questionable and I want to look more closely)

As for day decisions etc. weekends are generally just a more busy time for me (this one particularly so because partner's birthday etc.) and I would like the opportunity to be able to feel more "on top of" the game and clarify reads. I felt strongly that VP was scum during Day 2 and seeing him as a lead wagon here feels good, I can't lie about that, but I have this feeling of wanting to "make sure" that my read on him is scum, if that makes sense.

PEdit:

Well tbh I think Frogsterking is right that I'm probably not actually playing outside of my scumrange. I mean, I don't think the concept of a "scumrange" is the right way to read me, rather than just... different approaches that I would take as scum versus as town. BUT, I don't think there would be that much benefit to Frogsterking as scum to do research and bring up what's probably my most recent proper scumgame from 2019 and keep talking about how they think that more people should be looking at my game. To me, it just

feels

like town seeing someone that they don't think has done anything towny, just skating on by without getting attention. Scum would know I'm town, and would be more likely to assume that people aren't pushing me because I'm actually doing townie things. Maybe Frogster-scum would test the waters a little by mentioning me as possible scum and seeing if anyone else bites. But the repeated "I really think we should be talking about Deas y'all!!!" comes across as uninformed, with the thought of "this person could TOTALLY be scum, why isn't anyone else seeing it????".

Reads like this for me are also player-dependent fwiw. Someone like VP, or April or Nero I would probably more expect to do a push like that as scum (though still probably in a different way from what Frogster is doing it), but the way that Frogster is doing it just does not fit with what I expect from scum.

[DeasVail]

Frogster, did you look at any town games of mine as well or just the scum game?

[DeasVail]

some thoughts

1) i think it's really risky to not flip in the hood today. we might have a better chance at hitting scum if we flip someone like deas, but if he's town, we've gotten nowhere. and if the whole hood is alive at elo there's no shot we win tbh
2) i think if scum april hard pushes malc yday, she has a plan for today. if her plan was to disappear and let someone else lead, then i think she's partnered with someone else who is active and talkative and can lead instead (possibilities include VP, titus, maaaybe nero if VP is town, and if im thinking objectively, prob me)
3) there's no way the scumteam is all people who are lurking today

2) is a decent point but I think sometimes disappearances can be unplanned or relate to non-game-related things. People don’t usually plan to disappear imo

[DeasVail]

some thoughts

1) i think it's really risky to not flip in the hood today. we might have a better chance at hitting scum if we flip someone like deas, but if he's town, we've gotten nowhere. and if the whole hood is alive at elo there's no shot we win tbh
2) i think if scum april hard pushes malc yday, she has a plan for today. if her plan was to disappear and let someone else lead, then i think she's partnered with someone else who is active and talkative and can lead instead (possibilities include VP, titus, maaaybe nero if VP is town, and if im thinking objectively, prob me)
3) there's no way the scumteam is all people who are lurking today

2) is a decent point but I think sometimes disappearances can be unplanned or relate to non-game-related things. People don’t usually plan to disappear imo

Do you think we need to eliminate in the hood? Can you detail your reads?

Titus I’m V/LA (but still keeping up with the game in a very superficial way as I’m able to)
I imagine you would have known that though?

I don’t really care about the hood, and reads will wait until I’m able to catch up properly and give them a proper reasssessment

[DeasVail]

I'm here and reading up (around page 208 atm but should be caught up over the course of the day).

I'm getting cold feet on VP and want to think super carefully about that. Is it self-doubt? Is it because I was wrong in thinking him scum? I'll hopefully be able to give a clearer idea on this in about 12 hours. I also need to work out where/how/why VP went from pushing fire as scum to trying to townblock with fire.

[DeasVail]

I also need to work out where/how/why VP went from pushing fire as scum to trying to townblock with fire.

Feel like you have played with me enough to know this is how I roll as town.

I often find heated exchanges with people helps me determine a person's alignment. I definitely act on genuine scum reads at any moment, but if I stress tests a person's approach to the game and they look townie out of it, that makes me feel much better about an alignment I was unsure about prior to that.

I think I have played with you once?

Also this post would imply you were acting much more confident in your fire scumread than you actually were?

[DeasVail]

All the stuff about telling me I’m being played by fire and that I’m in his pocket and acting aghast at comments that your reasoning on fire seemed exaggerated…
Well that all would have been a bit excessive, no?

[DeasVail]

*their

Apologies

[DeasVail]

sure why not, ill hate myself either way

VOTE: nero

Based on what I’ve read so far, I think it’s pretty unlikely I’d vote Nero over VP today.

I also don’t buy that Nero/VP must have scum between them. I’m also at the VP-scum stage of my thought cycle rn fwiw

[DeasVail]

sure why not, ill hate myself either way

VOTE: nero

Based on what I’ve read so far, I think it’s pretty unlikely I’d vote Nero over VP today.

I also don’t buy that Nero/VP must have scum between them. I’m also at the VP-scum stage of my thought cycle rn fwiw

What do you think of Cape? That's the option I see if Nero/Vp don't have scum in them.

Current impression is town (but not locktown).

I plan on having my reads cleared up (hopefully with some amount of explanation) by about 8 hours’ time.

[DeasVail]

Remind me to look into VPB - Fire possibilities.

Fire's play around VP is very bold if they're scum together. I think scum-Fire would think there is too much risk of their play looking like attempts to save scum-VP.

[DeasVail]

Remind me to look into VPB - Fire possibilities.

Fire's play around VP is very bold if they're scum together. I think scum-Fire would think there is too much risk of their play looking like attempts to save scum-VP.

Que? Fire is saving me?

I don't think Fire is actually saving you, no.

But multiple times Fire has backed off your wagon at what I think scum could perceive as crucial moments. If Fire is scum with you, I would expect Fire to feel extremely self-conscious about something like the Nero vote, or the unvotes earlier this game day "because VP is willing to work with us". I believe scum in that position would worry that it

looks

like they are trying to save their buddy, when realistically it probably doesn't change anything. It's all lose, no gain.

[DeasVail]

VOTE: VP Baltar

*runs away screaming*

but seriously I want this day to end. I want VP to be eliminated once and for all.

I no longer need to have my reads in order (but will still do this as promised). But yeah. i'm done. i want this to be done.

[DeasVail]

And it's not, that's the thing. If VP is town, then that's okay. I'm happy to wear that, and I really just think that the game would be better off for VP's elimination regardless. But also, I think he is scum and could talk about my thought process in having come to that conclusion, but it's the sort of convoluted thought process that was to convince

me

to vote VP, not the sort of thing that I would expect to convince others.

[DeasVail]

My reads are something like the following:

Town/Not touching this- Enchant, Galron, tenebrousluminary, MathBlade
Almost there: Save The Dragons, Nero Cain
Town but with more paranoia: April Ludgate, fireisredsir
There are some things I like, but not enough: Frogsterking, Scorpious, Titus, Eyes without a face, Cape90
Scum: VP Baltar

--

Save The Dragons

I worry about having Save The Dragons too high on my readslist, but honestly in this gamestate I worry about calling anyone town (for e.g. it took a lot for me to keep tene in the top townread spot) and so I need to make calls here and there. Part of this is based on a small degree of familiarity with Save The Dragons as a person. The light-hearted slightly troll-y vibe to a lot of his posts matches what I expect from him, and the relaxed feel of a lot of these posts I think fits more with town than scum.
Examples are 2963, 3986, 4681/4687, 4795.

2901 comes across as genuinely annoyed at having been accused of not doing anything, but there's also a lack of guilty conscience there. I think scum "caught for the wrong reasons" respond differently here.

--

Nero Cain

I would probably have to re-think this in the case of a VP-town flip, but the stubborn and persistent suspicion of VP feels town. It's not particularly performative, for example, and even VP can't seem to decide whether it's scum or "bad town". The more recent "who has killed more town huh!?!?!" is the sort of nonsense that I wouldn't really expect scum to think of, because no one's going to take that seriously, but I can definitely relate to an underlying frustration at town deaths that might have been avoided if VP-scum had been eliminated earlier.

--

April Ludgate

A bit of a confusing slot for me. I found Ari's obstinence in regards to HEM to be quite town, and even though the Day 2 play was annoying, it had a weird confidence to it that I guess April-scum could probably fake, but definitely had the vibe of a townie over-estimating their own reads. The "woe is me" routine Day 3 obviously felt excessive and over-the-top, but in some ways I kind of believe 4980. It feels pretty predictable that this town would

not

appreciate April leading them to a miselim and then talking about how they're going to be eliminated. I don't think April-scum would see that as realistic town play? I feel it would be so much easier as scum to just get on with it, without the antics? The antics just look bad! Why do that? The contradiction between that and saying that they "don't regret the Malcolm wagon" in 5934 feels more like town processing events and their role in it than scum trying to endear themselves to the town.

--

fireisredsir

I feel a bit terrible giving fire any side-eye because I honestly feel a bit betrayed every time they say I could be scum, and then there's the whiplash when they say they agree with my posts again! But for similar reasons to why fire probably thinks I could be scum, I must keep fire in mind as a possibility. Their posts are very reasonable. They're really thinking about what they're doing, in a probably town way. They're, if anything, leaning into the dv/fire connection that had been made by a few people earlier, and I like to think that's town, because I feel like the scum instinct would be to avoid that negative association. But it's the same reasonable-ness that gives me slight pause.

--

Frogsterking

I like the point that was brought up about Frogsterking fearing that VP was trying to set them up as a scumbuddy, but idk, I think that's the ony thing I would think more about when a VP scum-flip actually happens. Other than that, I kind of feel the suspicion in them sounding a bit more wild at the beginning of the game than more recently, but I liked their response to VP where they explained how they were trying to improve their play. idk, it felt earnest. I also still feel that them bringing my name up based on a scumgame of mine was a bit unnecessary for scum, unless they're scum with VP and trying to get people to go for me while "bussing" VP but even then the argument is not very effectively delivered so it feels like town? idk I think Frogster would be in the higher tier if not for the VP-buddy theory.

--

Scorpious

I actually kind of liked tene's townrad on scorpious and I don't think they're particularly scummy in any way, just... there's not much there that makes me go "oh yes that's town!". sorry I don't have more to say here, maybe later.

--

Titus

I think the most town thing about Titus to me is the way that they've interacted with MathBlade and tried to work with him. This is also not the Titus-scum play that I'm used to, but I also think Titus' mafia play has evolved since when I played with them more. What Titus does with their read on me will be telling for me, I think.

Eyes without a face

I had an earlier weak townread in 866. MathBlade's point about 3719 probably not coming from scum in a winning position, also resonated with me. But I can't help but wonder if the OUTRAGE throughout the thread is even real. The sheer opposition to the VP wagon (e.g. 6336) seems quite out-of-proportion with Eyes' townread, particularly given the lack of attempt to explain when given the chance in 5924.

Cape90

There are no specific posts that stand out to me on a skim through the ISO. I think it's a classic case of an overall townie "vibe". There's a relaxed sassiness to their posts (yes I realise I've used this line before), and an easy sense of humour. There are also game-solving posts. There's a bit more complaining about MathBlade than I'd like to see, because I feel like that's just the cool thing to do and holds Mathblade responsible for miselims when that's not really fair. But then I like the swerve off Nero to April and not feeling the need to focus in the neighbourhood, because I feel like Cape90 would figure that that's what they'd be expected to do as town.

[DeasVail]

So it’s Cape, Tene, and StD, eh?

Hmm.

I think Tene might be the scum there.

Tene comes across as very… uninformed to me

[DeasVail]

We should have short days more often!

[DeasVail]

Curious. I had planned my first post to be quoting Titus' role PM and voting Enchant.

How come?

[DeasVail]

Yeah finally and no more wifom worries about Enchant. I finished reading that Team Mafia game I linked with dease!town in it and now I kind of think Dease is town.

I think this is an interesting progression from Frogster because I'm still probably a possible miselim candidate for scum. Also excitedly finding a scumgame of mine and thinking "he is like he was in that scumgame!" without actually looking at a towngame feels like a townie misplay rather than a scum misplay.

[DeasVail]

Curious. I had planned my first post to be quoting Titus' role PM and voting Enchant.

How come?

He was blocked 3 times and that is a 2x mafia roleblocker.

Fair. I was pretty sure Enchant was town after the psychologist flip, and knowing that there was a mafia blocking role (even if 2-shot) kind of cemented it, especially with the x-shot nature of the game. But it's all moot now.

Tangentially, I still strongly think tene is town.

[DeasVail]

Who here wants to talk April? *puppy eyes*

Boon is a hard sort but I think they’re scum and want opinions

I am happy to talk about April. I've been thinking about Ari's hard buddying of Datisi and Datisi responding that with "I think you might know I'm town and are trying to make me trust you!" (paraphrased), which could be scum-theatre.

The Titus wagon also happened VERY quickly and I wonder how much that had to do with April being the alternate.

I'm not necessarily thinking that April is scum (and I did previously think that April was more likely town) but these are potential talking points going on in my mind.

PEdit: @Math my slightly outdated April read is town. Still working out what I think based on new developments/reconsideration.

[DeasVail]

Who here wants to talk April? *puppy eyes*

Boon is a hard sort but I think they’re scum and want opinions

I am happy to talk about April. I've been thinking about Ari's hard buddying of Datisi and Datisi responding that with "I think you might know I'm town and are trying to make me trust you!" (paraphrased), which could be scum-theatre.

The Titus wagon also happened VERY quickly and I wonder how much that had to do with April being the alternate.

I'm not necessarily thinking that April is scum (and I did previously think that April was more likely town) but these are potential talking points going on in my mind.

PEdit: @Math my slightly outdated April read is town. Still working out what I think based on new developments/reconsideration.

I think April is scum.

Malcolm wagon was to assert dominance
VP was BoP and failed

Then when we were working together April had a gut read Titus was town

When is Boon this bad?

Eh, I've been BoP'd as town too many times before to be necessarily convinced of it, particularly since my reads have also been mediocre at best here.

[DeasVail]

Not really liking all the bold declarations in thread versus communicating and block forming.

what if i boldly communicate my block forming

That’d be a good idea.

Because right now I think you’re boldly going where no scum has gone before

(Brownie points if you get the reference)

im not old enough to get the reference (but i do get it anyway. the final frontier!)

my personal block is me/math/april/std/deas. galron, tene, and scorp are a bit weaker. the other 3 have at least 2 scum in them imo

Yeah this is a bad look imho

Me/std/deas/tene/scorp is way better.

Not really liking all the bold declarations in thread versus communicating and block forming.

what if i boldly communicate my block forming

That’d be a good idea.

Because right now I think you’re boldly going where no scum has gone before

(Brownie points if you get the reference)

im not old enough to get the reference (but i do get it anyway. the final frontier!)

my personal block is me/math/april/std/deas. galron, tene, and scorp are a bit weaker. the other 3 have at least 2 scum in them imo

Why am I in the block?

[DeasVail]

More for fire than Math fwiw

[DeasVail]

I'll need someone to convince me on Frogster? I'll have another read through, but I'd feel nervous eliminating there. The all-over-the-place-ness of their stances and posts seems more "lost townie" to me than scum-motivated. And given the gamestate up until the titus elim, "lost townie" seems pretty believable. I may be falling for it, but I'm not as convinced by Frogster being scum.

[DeasVail]

Hey Cape, I know you've been fairly suspicious of Scorpious throughout the game. Why not push them here?

[DeasVail]

Hey Cape, I know you've been fairly suspicious of Scorpious throughout the game. Why not push them here?

You caught up?

I am yeah

[DeasVail]

Hey Cape, I know you've been fairly suspicious of Scorpious throughout the game. Why not push them here?

And one more thing. If you want a push on me, do it yourself.. Don’t tell others to do
It. You’re not on my list but this is a scummy post.

Why aren't I on your list? Who is on your list if Cape isn't?

[DeasVail]

math im not really sure what you're seeing there

--

Also I've been entertaining the idea of Cape/Scorpious scum. And then another (at least 1?) in my townreads.