Large Normal 238 | Weiqi, Baduk, Go | Endgame

[tenebrousluminary]

Salutations. Yeet and any others whom it may concern, you may call me teneb or tl if that is easier. I also respond to "hey you."

I would like to think that the game delay is notsomething we should read into, so I won't.

[tenebrousluminary]

VOTE: Datisi

Post 39 feels unnatural to me.

Frogsterking, you may need to do some research on what to expect from this game.

[tenebrousluminary]

VOTE: tenebro

yeet may or may not be town, tenebro probably isn't

Although I can't sign off on this vote, I approve of the nickname.

[tenebrousluminary]

I also wouldn’t mind getting Datisi hammered soon.

You live up to your name, Yeet!

[tenebrousluminary]

why does frogster sound so NEW, it's weird vibes for a 2011 join date

You give off an impression of being experienced yourself, yet seemingly are not?

[tenebrousluminary]

tenebro on the other hand walked in, saw that i'm getting pressure, dropped a vote on me based on weak reasoning, and left.

Did you feel pressured by one vote?

Are you expecting strong reasoning so early in the game?

[tenebrousluminary]

Yeet seems trustworthy and makes a good point. But I think I'll stick with my vote for now.

[tenebrousluminary]

I'm already controversial. How exciting!

[tenebrousluminary]

i'm not sure why you're ascribing scum motivation to it and not just viewing it as a 'town voting the first thing that pinged them outside of rvs' sort of vote

because he did not show what i think town usually shows around making a vote like that - like where's the sorting when he's already keen on making srs reads? why does he seem to be fading in the background after making it? he made like, one throwaway questions post at me and that's it. it feels more like scum trying to fulfill their "solving quota" than town genuinely feeling the game if that makes sense

also like, i'll let you in on a little secret: i was not as sure on this read as i gave the impression of being at the time... the responses haven't been Good though imho

I considered responding to your answers to my questions, but I decided that your answers made my point for me.

[tenebrousluminary]

I didn't want to interrupt Datisi and Aristeia while they were having fun, but taking refuge in non-game conversations early on is a tactic I have seen mafia use often. Now that Aristeia has voted me, I regret being considerate!

[tenebrousluminary]

Datisi do you think I am meme-pushing you? Is that why you feel rather unaffected by my push on you? I can assure you that I am not memeing with this push on you.

anyone who thinks they can lockscum me on page 2 is lying either to themselves or to everyone else

you may not be meming but the push itself is a meme

I see a contradiction here. If you really were so unconcerned about this push, you would not need to dismiss it this way.

[tenebrousluminary]

I didn't want to interrupt Datisi and Aristeia while they were having fun, but taking refuge in non-game conversations early on is a tactic I have seen mafia use often. Now that Aristeia has voted me, I regret being considerate!

would you like to talk about game related things?

Is that not what I have been doing?

If you mean you wish to open a dialogue with me, go ahead.

[tenebrousluminary]

@tenebro that's just kinda their dynamic, and its nai, they did the same (as tvt) in the recentky concluded 'bunnies' mini normal

This may be true. I don't plan to completely ignore your experience, but I also am unsure whether I want to let this sort of argument bias how I read players in this game. I think each game can have a unique shape. I am also wary of allowing experienced players to get a leg up by saying this sort of thing, given that I do not plan to fact check any such claims. Players like myself and Yeet do not have this option available. Am I doing us a disservice if I do not question such arguments?

[tenebrousluminary]

I'm already controversial. How exciting!

why does this excite you

Why shouldn't it? Everyone wants to talk about me! I'm drinking in the attention! Plus, I can't get any information from how players approach me if there is universal agreement about me. That's boring.

[tenebrousluminary]

I'm not feeling negative towards Aristeia anymore.

Apologies for making so many posts in a row. I will try to curtail this behavior in the future.

[tenebrousluminary]

I scumread Tenebro hard based on 116 and the attempt to defuse suspicion by essentially saying it’s just a bandwagon

I don't remember doing this. What do you mean?

[tenebrousluminary]

I am not sure how you got that idea from what I wrote, but okay.

It would be difficult for me to think any case against me had merit when I know it to be wrong.

[tenebrousluminary]

I am not trying to be dismissive of anyone. But I do think it goes without saying that I do not agree with votes against me.

My hope was to be a good listener. It sounds like I'm not doing well.

[tenebrousluminary]

Nobody should agree with votes on them. That doesn’t mean anything. If you’re a townie then you getting miselimmed would mean two of us dying. I feel like multiple people voting you for a post should at least make you want to defend your position there instead of digging further into Datisi. It’s not dismissive of individual people so much as it is the case against you and the fact you’re being suspected.

It seems to me that I'm not being attacked for any position, only the way I said it. If there is a case against me beyond "post 116 is bad," I do not know what it is, nor do I know how to respond to that alone.

Saying that you want to be quiet and listen (AKA ‘lurk’) doesn’t exactly put me at ease either.

I don't think you're hearing that post in the way I meant it. Being a good listener is hearing everyone, taking in everyone's viewpoint even if I suspect them, and being kind. Listening need not come at the exclusion of speaking, particularly in a forum setting.

[tenebrousluminary]

It seems like you are simultaneously demanding that I be defensive and demanding that I go on an offensive in order to satisfy you.

Convincing you is not at the top of my priority list right now anyway, thank you. I am planning to engage with more people and trying to hunt, but you are the one who said I was being dismissive. Suspecting me for responding to it seems at odds with your point that I am suspicious for not responding to the suspicions of others.

[tenebrousluminary]

Like. If you take issue with votes on you, then start a dialogue, like you literally stated yourself.

Thank you, but I plan to play the game my way. I'm sorry if that does not line up with your ideas about townie behavior.

[tenebrousluminary]

VOTE: fua

This person chose to pick a fight with me because they perceived me as a weak player they could win an argument against, but their attack did not make sense. Furthermore, in the bottom of 266, they treat me like they know I am town.

some people not mentioned in your list haven't even posted?? excuse me for asking i guess

class starting back again, cheers

I don't like the way Datisi focused on nitpicking rather than the substance of Nero Cain's argument.

[tenebrousluminary]

substance of Nero Cain's argument.

What do you think of the substance of my argument?

It's good. If fua and Datisi did not exist, I would join you.

[tenebrousluminary]

Furthermore, in the bottom of 266, they treat me like they know I am town.

Can you give me specifics of what you're seeing there?

The kid gloves thing -- "I would recommend you do this (in order for me to town read you)" is a strange thing to say to a suspect. I think they had a guilty conscience about their crappy attack on me.

[tenebrousluminary]

some people not mentioned in your list haven't even posted?? excuse me for asking i guess

class starting back again, cheers

I don't like the way Datisi focused on nitpicking rather than the substance of Nero Cain's argument.

have you decided you're just gonna mindlessly tunnel every post i make this game? i logged in during my break, saw that nero was supposedly townreading people that hadn't posted, i asked him about it. do you think "nitpicking" that makes me scummy?

I would like to know how you came up with this "mindless" idea. I have been quite clear about why I think the posts of yours I have criticized are scummy to me. It has not been mindless at all.

So long as you continue to make such posts, I will continue to suspect you, yes. Is being scumread so alien to you as to be upsetting?

[tenebrousluminary]

like, this is what i mean when i say specifically looking for scum motivation in my posts. it feels like latching on to whatever i say in order to try to force a contradiction out. do i seem concerned? why wouldn't i dismiss it by saying something about it?

To me, it seems like Yeet's push made you sweat. Resorting to discrediting it as a meme rather than either ignoring it because of not being concerned or confronting the substance, to me is the action of mafia. One could call it "dismissive." I could be wrong, of course.

[tenebrousluminary]

That is an acceptable point, Datisi. I wish you did not feel the need to deliver it sarcastically. I am trying my best here and may miss the mark on occasion.

[tenebrousluminary]

It's okay. I can see I am frustrating you. That isn't my goal, and i apologize if it's my fault. I am just trying to sort out who is what, i have nothing personal against anyone here.

[tenebrousluminary]

Clearly my main suspects are not of interest to anyone, and I see the shift in momentum as sweeping something under the rug. To that end, VOTE: GeneralWu.

[tenebrousluminary]

Clearly my main suspects are not of interest to anyone, and I see the shift in momentum as sweeping something under the rug. To that end, VOTE: GeneralWu.

What do you think of HEM?

On his merits, i am indifferent. It concerns me, however, that his attackers and my attackers are basically the same people.

[tenebrousluminary]

About to be a momentum change? That already happened. You went after Wu, and suddenly the interest in me spiked.

[tenebrousluminary]

These are basically the people I'm talking about, Nero.

i like the directions that fua and nero are looking so far, but after some research wu looks exaaaactly like he did in newbie 2073 so im less interested in that for now. tene and monkey i am more on board with

some people not mentioned in your list haven't even posted?? excuse me for asking i guess

class starting back again, cheers

I don't like the way Datisi focused on nitpicking rather than the substance of Nero Cain's argument.

have you decided you're just gonna mindlessly tunnel every post i make this game? i logged in during my break, saw that nero was supposedly townreading people that hadn't posted, i asked him about it. do you think "nitpicking" that makes me scummy?

nero what makes you townread tene?

Town
Frogsterking
Nero Cain
DeasVail
fua
fireisredsir
VP Baltar
Yeet

Null
Scorpious
MalcolmTucker
Datisi
skitter30
Eyes without a face
Aristeia
Cape90
Nordom
GeneralWu

Scum
tenebrousluminary
humaneatingmonkey

VOTE: tenebro

I haven't read the game yet and likely won't get a chance to until late today. I was sleepy sleeping when it started and I have a lot of work to do today.

it's alright, i don't have too much free time right now either.

for whoever wants to weigh in on this - am i tunnelled on tenebro? like, posts 58, 140, 195, 202, 318 feel like specifically looking for scum!motivation from me / things to attack me over rather than actually thinking through my posts and drawing conclusions that way. i *want* to say i'm still feeling as sure in the read as i was an hour ago, but like, something something weak at emotion bad at mafia etc.

I don't think you're tunneled - I have similar feelings about Tenebro's posting being scummy

And none of them paid any mind to what you said about the esteemed general.

[tenebrousluminary]

Well, fire acknowledged it to defend the general, now that I read rather than knee-jerk.

[tenebrousluminary]

STD has Wu as the 3rd scummist. But Dats and Ari are straight-up ignoring, yes.

I did not interpret his list as ordered, since if it was, he voted me rather than the person he listed as scummiest.

[tenebrousluminary]

On his merits, i am indifferent. It concerns me, however, that his attackers and my attackers are basically the same people.

do you have thoughts about his alignment independently of the people attacking him/you?

Not really. I didn't like the "lol" thing, but other than that I don't see why everyone is so up in arms about him.

[tenebrousluminary]

STD has Wu as the 3rd scummist

my list isn't ordered my bad

Would you like to explain any of your opinions, Sir Knight?

[tenebrousluminary]

It is interesting that both the esteemed general and the hungry primate have attracted an influx of defenders.

[tenebrousluminary]

Ah, it's just Datisi, isn't it?

[tenebrousluminary]

Ah, it's just Datisi, isn't it?

not even really datisi, he said monkey was scummy and that he was willing to vote there. just that the play was confusing based on past experiences

Okay, you're right.

[tenebrousluminary]

STD has Wu as the 3rd scummist

my list isn't ordered my bad

Would you like to explain any of your opinions, Sir Knight?

haha

[tenebrousluminary]

Could you at least explain why you want to extinguish my beautiful light, Sir Knight?

It is difficult to assess the motivations of votes against me, as Mx. Oboro says I must, if no motivation is provided.

[tenebrousluminary]

Could you at least explain why you want to extinguish my beautiful light, Sir Knight?

It is difficult to assess the motivations of votes against me, as Mx. Oboro says I must, if no motivation is provided.

i want pressure on you mostly, it's a gut read and i want to see how you respond

Here is my response:

I expected more gallantry from your appearance, Sir! Must I don a princess costume to win your favor?

Other than that, you'll just have to wait and see.

[tenebrousluminary]

I didn't necessarily suspect Tenebros on the basis of their early posts but found some of their later defences incredibly weak attempts to divert attention away from them without addressing accusations at-hand.

If you wish to call my defenses weak, you should cite what specifically was weak.

I don't understand how I can be making "defences" while also "not addressing accusations at hand." What accusations at hand would you like me to address? If you feel there are unanswered questions, you can ask them yourself, and if you really want to figure me out, I think you will do so.

Also TR'ing Frogster, their early question seemed so bizarre a theory for a mafia player to have, not sure why you'd draw attention to yourself with that. Also TR'ing Datisi at the moment, their frustrations re early accusations seemed fairly genuine to me at a point where players were keen to just get any theories or suspicions off the ground to get the game going.

Why is Frogster drawing attention to himself different from me drawing attention to myself? I don't disagree that it could be seen that way, but I want to hear your explanation.

I guess I am a tiny bit biased here but I think he's not as carefree as scum tho I haven't actually played with scum him this is just based on what he's said about his scum game previously.

You think Datisi is carefree this game? I think he seems quite upset about a small amount of pressure.

[tenebrousluminary]

The second rule of go is the suicide rule. You cannot play in a position that reduces the liberties of one of your groups to zero, resulting in it being captured.

---

Official Votecount 1.3

GeneralWu (4): Nero Cain, fua, VP Baltar, tenebrousluminary

[E-6]

Datisi (3): skitter30, Yeet, humaneatingmonkey
tenebrousluminary (2): fireisredsir, Save The Dragons
humaneatingmonkey (2): Aristeia, Cape90
skitter30 (1): Datisi
Yeet (1): Frogsterking

Not Voting (6): Scorpious, DeasVail, MalcolmTucker, Eyes without a face, Nordom, GeneralWu

With 19 players alive, it takes 10 votes to achieve an eliminaton.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2022-03-12 05:15:00).

There was a gulf between where I thought the votes were and where they actually were.

VOTE: Datisi

[tenebrousluminary]

On the other hand, Wu basically reflex-attacking my top townread for attacking him and doing nothing else probably deserves my vote too.

[tenebrousluminary]

have kind of a hard time believing that monkey really thinks there's no way ari and datisi can be town here. this aggressive posturing feels a bit bluff-y to me

That

was

overblown, but I think monkey is making a better argument than Ari right now.

[tenebrousluminary]

have kind of a hard time believing that monkey really thinks there's no way ari and datisi can be town here. this aggressive posturing feels a bit bluff-y to me

That

was

overblown, but I think monkey is making a better argument than Ari right now.

Would you like to explain your thought process ? : )

Sure.

When he accused you of OMGUS, your defense that he never voted you is one I find unconvincing. I don't think a vote is required for OMGUS.

I don't think your point about "thread ghosting" is very compelling. People have schedules and other hobbies. 521 does not seem fair.

You yourself have noted that your readlist was not fully genuine, if I am understanding your "trap" correctly, so why is it strange that someone noticed?

I asked you which read you wanted me to elaborate on because I don't feel like answering busy work questions.

While there is nothing necessarily wrong with this, I can see why monkey sees it as dodging the question.

[tenebrousluminary]

The fact that you can't answer an easy question like "which read are you interested in" and then you begin dodging and shouting "OMGUS!" and "Why won't you answer me!?" is kind of an awful look for you.

Maybe I should go and look at the interaction rather than relying on your dueling narratives.

[tenebrousluminary]

The fact that you can't answer an easy question like "which read are you interested in" and then you begin dodging and shouting "OMGUS!" and "Why won't you answer me!?" is kind of an awful look for you.

Maybe I should go and look at the interaction rather than relying on your dueling narratives.

To me it seems clear that the "which read" question was clearly answered with "all of them," and even if you did not like that answer, I do not understand why you are getting on monkey's case about it and framing not just choosing one as some sort of evil maneuver targeted to waste your time. You've now wasted far more time with this argument than it would have taken to answer.

[tenebrousluminary]

You yourself have noted that your readlist was not fully genuine, if I am understanding your "trap" correctly, so why is it strange that someone noticed?

my readlist is genuine.

there are reads in there that I can see someone having a legitimate issue with based on thread progress since at the time.

the fact that when I ask him he doesn't really want to have a conversation about a particular read is a red flag to me because when I evaluate read lists I usually compare to my own reads and look for areas where we have dissonance.

The fact that he couldn't come up with a single dissonant read to talk about implies he didn't have any reads of his own and he's just asking me busy work questions that he's not particularly interested in.

I simply don't agree with your characterization. I don't think that necessarily makes you scum though.

[tenebrousluminary]

I don't think your point about "thread ghosting" is very compelling. People have schedules and other hobbies. 521 does not seem fair.

except he's the one who initiated the conversation and when I turned it around on him and accused him of not having reads and pushing me in bad faith and his response was "lol" and then he disappeared from the thread.

I didn't think "lol" was a good response but I could not care less that he then chose that moment to stop posting.

[tenebrousluminary]

I don't think your point about "thread ghosting" is very compelling. People have schedules and other hobbies. 521 does not seem fair.

except he's the one who initiated the conversation and when I turned it around on him and accused him of not having reads and pushing me in bad faith and his response was "lol" and then he disappeared from the thread.

I didn't think "lol" was a good response but I could not care less that he then chose that moment to stop posting.

Sorry, this sounded less kind than I intended. I just don't think it's scum indicative.

[tenebrousluminary]

all of them is not an acceptable response to me as it shows me he has no reads of his own to compare my reads to.

Why can't it show that he genuinely was just trying to firm up his read on you? I asked Save The Dragons a similar question myself for a similar reason.

[tenebrousluminary]

I feel so much pressure from someone who has no reads and decided to hide from me.

Again, so malicious.

I have to admit, it does read that way. She might as well have called you a pleb.

[tenebrousluminary]

The more I think about it, the more I just don't think scum HEM would decide to enter going guns blazing at Aristeia, of all people, who seems to be reacting to this in a very OMGUSy way (not that it's scum indicative). I assume there is history between the two from what I have read, and I would never as scum just attack someone like that flippantly who I know has a high chance of OMGUSing back at me.

I just don't see the scum motivation here.

I also don't think he would have admitted to having no reads. That was self-defeating in terms of the argument.

[tenebrousluminary]

all of them is not an acceptable response to me as it shows me he has no reads of his own to compare my reads to.

Why can't it show that he genuinely was just trying to firm up his read on you? I asked Save The Dragons a similar question myself for a similar reason.

because him not having a read that he's interested in shows me that he's not actually sorting people.

the idea of talking reads out is that

you have reads yourself that you want to talk about

We clearly just don't agree about this. I believe that you believe it.

[tenebrousluminary]

I am tentatively at

humaneatingmonkey
GeneralWu


so the other 2 scum are in

Scorpious
Save The Dragons
MalcolmTucker
skitter30
Eyes without a face
Nordom

This sounds more like the town nero I know. Nothing solid yet but a town lean.

So a readslist on Page 12 is a lot different from a readslist on Page 8?

No. But one time it's the other person's fault. Two times it's probably mine.

[tenebrousluminary]

The more I think about it, the more I just don't think scum HEM would decide to enter going guns blazing at Aristeia, of all people, who seems to be reacting to this in a very OMGUSy way (not that it's scum indicative). I assume there is history between the two from what I have read, and I would never as scum just attack someone like that flippantly who I know has a high chance of OMGUSing back at me.

I just don't see the scum motivation here.

I also don't think he would have admitted to having no reads. That was self-defeating in terms of the argument.

Why does a town player have no reads on page 24?

Why does a scum player?

Why does a town player have no reads on page 24?

he's general wu?

[tenebrousluminary]

Nordom, who is scum?

[tenebrousluminary]

- this thing with nordam is probably a miscommunication/having different priorities to sort people. I dont really get what he's asking but probably isnt scummy

I'm not sure about this. It was odd to me that he fixated on something so insignificant, when he has had so little to say about the more interesting game events.

[tenebrousluminary]

Found some of Tenebros responses to accusations against them particularly weak as well, deflecting from the actual points being made instead of addressing them directly.

Salutations, Mr. Tucker.

I addressed this and directed points at you. Are you choosing to ignore them and maintain your argument nonetheless?

[tenebrousluminary]

What's the bullet point case on datisi again?

Basically, Daitisi was one to throw their hat into the popular pressure of Wu and Monkey. It just came off as lazy and convenient to me.

Going back to this, it's not as if Datisi didn't have their own reads or suspicions early on though. If I remember correctly they'd had a go at both Tenebros and Skitter. There'd be no need for them to desperately conjure up some sudden mafia reads for having a lack of them so far.

Overall I feel like the mafia case for Datisi feels really disjointed and inconsistent so far and I'm not seeing it yet. Yeet's initial push early on was based on very little and Yeet was confidently making all sorts of big claims and giving major reads at an incredibly early point in the game with a confidence that probably wasn't warranted.

I find your point of "no need for them to desperately conjure up some sudden mafia reads for having a lack of them so far" strange. Why would they have to be desperate to give a scum-read?

By the way, welcome to the

town circle

. I embrace you, brother.

Why are you townreading this post? I am not.

[tenebrousluminary]

your defensiveness is noted.

Really? All I asked was for you to address questions I had asked you, and that is defensive?

I will look for the post.

[tenebrousluminary]

I didn't necessarily suspect Tenebros on the basis of their early posts but found some of their later defences incredibly weak attempts to divert attention away from them without addressing accusations at-hand.

If you wish to call my defenses weak, you should cite what specifically was weak.

I don't understand how I can be making "defences" while also "not addressing accusations at hand." What accusations at hand would you like me to address? If you feel there are unanswered questions, you can ask them yourself, and if you really want to figure me out, I think you will do so.

Also TR'ing Frogster, their early question seemed so bizarre a theory for a mafia player to have, not sure why you'd draw attention to yourself with that. Also TR'ing Datisi at the moment, their frustrations re early accusations seemed fairly genuine to me at a point where players were keen to just get any theories or suspicions off the ground to get the game going.

Why is Frogster drawing attention to himself different from me drawing attention to myself? I don't disagree that it could be seen that way, but I want to hear your explanation.

I guess I am a tiny bit biased here but I think he's not as carefree as scum tho I haven't actually played with scum him this is just based on what he's said about his scum game previously.

You think Datisi is carefree this game? I think he seems quite upset about a small amount of pressure.

Here you go, Mr. Tucker.

[tenebrousluminary]

It seems like you are simultaneously demanding that I be defensive and demanding that I go on an offensive in order to satisfy you.

Convincing you is not at the top of my priority list right now anyway, thank you. I am planning to engage with more people and trying to hunt, but you are the one who said I was being dismissive. Suspecting me for responding to it seems at odds with your point that I am suspicious for not responding to the suspicions of others.

Posts like this are kinda why I find you dodgy @tenebros. Like it's an absolutely nothing post in terms of rebuking suspicion against you while also trying to invert the entire discussion against the person who's potentially accused you of being mafia in the first place. It's deflection.

It's also odd that early in the game you accused Datisi of being overly sensitive and defensive about the initial push for them, and yet once heat was directed your way, you kinda moved between a similarly defensive stance and sometimes brushing off the heat with throwaway jokes about how exciting it was. There's an inconsistency there, like you don't want to appear too worried about any heat while also being aware you have to mount some sort of response to clear your name.

I think this is one of my more clearly townie posts, so I don't think we will see eye to eye about it.

I responded to fua because they struck a nerve, but I maintain that I am not required to respond to every accusation lobbed my way and I still find it ridiculous that fua has applied that standard only to me and no one else.

[tenebrousluminary]

Malcom, I think you're getting too over-excited in the pants from Datisi's lazy town read on you. You gotta dig deeper.

Unless you're maf butt-buddies together then fml

These posts are not appropriate. Please stop.

[tenebrousluminary]

There's so many people I want gone today. Datisi/DeasVail/fireisredsir/maybe VP Baltar

Is it just me, or has your Datisi read suddenly switched three or more times in the last 3 pages?

I am seeing nuanced and complex thought processes from Datisi right now. I remain unsure about him, but in light of that and my plethora of other suspects, I would like to give him some space.

I am still considering whether Nordom is scum or merely unusual.

[tenebrousluminary]

your defensiveness is noted.

Really? All I asked was for you to address questions I had asked you, and that is defensive?

I will look for the post.

You're implying I chose to ignore questions you asked me that, from looking back from your ISO, I can't find. Clearly I am not ignoring them, what basis would I have for doing that at such an early stage in the game? Your post felt unnecessarily defensive based on a brief read from me that you might be mafia...the very same reasoning you used to justify your suspicions of Datisi early on.

You are quite determined to think the worst of me. It is not unusual to think that players who do not answer an address are intentionally avoiding doing so.

[tenebrousluminary]

Malcom, I think you're getting too over-excited in the pants from Datisi's lazy town read on you. You gotta dig deeper.

Unless you're maf butt-buddies together then fml

These posts are not appropriate. Please stop.

If those particular sentences managed to offend anybody, then I think that person needs to grow a thicker skin.

I am not offended, but minors use this forum. There was nothing sexual going on here until you decided to use a graphic metaphor. It is not called for.

[tenebrousluminary]

I think this is one of my more clearly townie posts, so I don't think we will see eye to eye about it.

ok other people have been louder and more distracting but let's not forget about tene. why are you so concerned with evaluating how towny your own posts are?

I am not "so concerned." I made a single comment indicating that Mr. Tucker and I clearly approach the game differently.

[tenebrousluminary]

VOTE: Nordom

I would like to gain further information to divine this player's alignment.

[tenebrousluminary]

I never mentioned it, but I also felt that DeasVail's vote and unvite of Eyes looked town.

[tenebrousluminary]

My wider point was that you've facilitated between kinda jokingly shrugging off accusations and getting more defensive about them. Neither on its own is a particular mafia tell, the two of them together is worth noting.

Okay, so you're still going to crush off my post and continue suspecting me for the same reason. Thanks for clarifying.

[tenebrousluminary]

STD - Has brought new ideas to the table and is putting in some effort to be visible and play the game. More of a townlean than full town, but still.

I would characterize this as exaggerated at best.

@tenebros, re your previous post to me

I'm not "crushing off" your post, I just didn't think it provided particularly strong reasoning for your play so far from a town POV.

In pretty much every post here you're basically either incredibly defensive, something you thought may have been a mafia tell for Datisi, you joke about being suspected, or you don't actually acknowledge any reasoning against you and try to twist it against the person accusing you to take the heat off without having to make any substantive points.

Like there's basically nothing in here which gives anyone a better idea as to your alignment either way despite there being plenty of posts, it's mostly deflection designed at directing suspicion onto someone else after you got some heat for a fairly weak first vote.

You are brushing it off, because I asked you to back up specific assertions and you have refused to do so.

You have called my defenses weak, and I want to hear what is weak about them. Tear me apart. Don't stand at a distance and repeat "nothing in here gives anyone a better idea." Explain how these posts are deflection rather than the addressing of accusations you and fua so greatly crave.

I continue to be baffled by your and fua's claims that I am at once too defensive and failing to address accusations. I want you to cite the accusations I have not addressed.

You now claim I am simultaneously not acknowledging reasoning against me -- again, what reasoning am I not addressing, and why am I obligated to address it -- while also twisting it against fua. How could I possibly twist an accusation against fua without acknowledging it? That is literally not possible.

Also, VOTE: fua

[tenebrousluminary]

One more thing I meant to mention in my previous post: I am not sure about Wu being scum anymore. I thought his reaction to being accused of fillering, which was to make one game post and then continue to filler, showed a mildly town lack of concern about how he is perceived.

[tenebrousluminary]

They are deflection because you literally continually avoided actually addressing any of the points anyone was making about you early in the game and instead tried to divert heat onto people who were accusing you with flippant remarks. I've outlined how you did that in the literal post you've quoted, I don't get what's so difficult about that?

I am not aware of what I need to address that I have not addressed. If it is important to you that I address something or you wish to continue to say that I do not address accusations, back it up.

I am not going to agree that I deflected anything. From my perspective, I defended myself against fua and also attacked him because I felt his attack was disingenuous.

[tenebrousluminary]

I also don’t think Tenebro read any other part of my readslist anyways.

I did. Why wouldn't I have?

[tenebrousluminary]

Perhaps I am able to ascertain why you'd think that. You may have a point.

VOTE: Dragons

[tenebrousluminary]

I don't want to right now. If you want me to consider a popular vote target, wait for Nordom's replacement.

[tenebrousluminary]

I understand, but you are not the only person who gets to decide what the consensus options are. I think getting votes against Nordom would be quite possible, and only his absence is preventing that. I would hate to eliminate the wrong person for such a bad reason.

[tenebrousluminary]

I can VOTE: Nordom if my lone vote is such a problem, though I question why it is only me you are cajoling when I am hardly the only person not voting for monkey or the general.

[tenebrousluminary]

Vp- you want me to vote someone who might accrue votes today. That is as close as I am willing to get to complying with your request at this time.

[tenebrousluminary]

STD - Has brought new ideas to the table and is putting in some effort to be visible and play the game. More of a townlean than full town, but still.

I would characterize this as exaggerated at best.

why did you only pick my read out of fua's list

It seemed the most out of place. At the time, you had one post that brought any ideas to the table, new or otherwise, and were barely playing the game. My attention was also drawn because fua was not the first person to place you bizarrely high in their list. I also meant to comment on their Wu read, but got distracted and forgot until a later post.

[tenebrousluminary]

Who else put STD high? And why didn't you question them?

Ari. That avenue of questioning has been done to death.

[tenebrousluminary]

Yeah, but it was never actually singled out or answered despite her saying her read on him was genuine. It was an exchange where HEM just kept asking for an explanation for all of her reads and she didn't give one.

This is true. I'm only offering a reason why I chose that read to dig into. I am not as suspicious of Ari, nor did she offer a reason on that read with which I could disagree. And, if I am being honest, she is a little scary.

[tenebrousluminary]

I TR people who were on the side of HEM at the moment.

Who are you talking about specifically?

UNVOTE: HEM

Malcolm, Nero, STD.

I see. I am nothing.

[tenebrousluminary]

honestly? assuming the mason claim is real, monkeyvAri prob was a TvT and Fire is prob scum here.

Talk to me about this. I might be interested.

I think definitely we should elim in Datisi/Wu today probably to get a narrative hold on D1.

I think Datisi is a better elim on VCA but Wu also fits so cooperating

VOTE: Wu

If I had a vig I would shoot tene based on Datisi’s and fire’s early votes.

If you had a big, you would be better served reading the game before you start spitting bullets.

This is also true of your loud and aggressive takes on a game you have no context for.

[tenebrousluminary]

I do not see what skitter has to gain as scum by drawing out their negative feelings about a claimed mason.

[tenebrousluminary]

Am I playing with the right sibling? Not too terribly long ago I played with Titus and she did a similar thing came in and said one of the leading wagons were scum. They were both town.

It’s possible that boat wagons are town but not likely.

Datisi/Wu were too wagons
Then became HEM and myself

Scum would have no reason to move wagons so the wagons getting to that state implies one or more are scum.

What if there was a reason in context? Datisi simply started posting better, in my opinion.

[tenebrousluminary]

I don’t see why scum move from both Datisi/Wu onto HEM/me. Why?

This argument would carry more weight if any players who did so were known to be scum.

[tenebrousluminary]

Your votes seemed bad.

What is bad about them? You will have to excuse me if I am getting tired of receiptless accusations.

[tenebrousluminary]

Thank you for at least partly explaining, Math.

[tenebrousluminary]

I would like to reiterate that I took HEM's side of things and only voted you, Math, because VPB was hassling me for voting Dragons. I will drop the subject here.

UNVOTE:

[tenebrousluminary]

Assuming MathBlade is telling the truth, I think we have a good shot of catching scum among the people who were voting him and monkey. I just don't think wagons can get like this without scum interference.

You changed this tune rather quickly. Maybe you are just scum after all.

[tenebrousluminary]

I have mixed feelings about all of the available targets right now. I'm not sure whether to pick my favorite and go there, or make a more sincere but useless vote while I wait and see how the wagons develop. For now, I shall do nothing.

[tenebrousluminary]

I have mixed feelings about all of the available targets right now. I'm not sure whether to pick my favorite and go there, or make a more sincere but useless vote while I wait and see how the wagons develop. For now, I shall do nothing.

also this is still scum

I get it. You are upset that no one is biting on your mislim and you are worried it will become unavailable. You may stop reminding us now.

[tenebrousluminary]

I am surprised by the speed with which everyone seems to be turning on Ari.

[tenebrousluminary]

I don't like to see players being rude to one another.

Ari wagon is almost certainly pure IMO. I'm less confident that Wu's is and so many people pushing him now that others are getting suspicion makes me wary.

Who is doing this? Wu does not have many votes.

[tenebrousluminary]

do you see anyone voting for scorp?

I wanted to, but then everyone got mad at you for doing it, so clearly that is not acceptable for some reason.

Because I don’t think you’re thinking about the game critically and are trying to deflect onto other people when possible. And I’m really not following Nero around, since I completely disagree with his reads on Mathblade, Yeet, and VP.

you TR wu in 257. then Nero shows up and is sus of wu in 283. you say good point in 285 and follow Nero to wu in 292.

nero says I'm a mediator in 898, you say I'm a mediator in 1063

you also TR skitter in 1063. Nero starts wanting a skitter lim in 1325. you SR skitter in 1414.

nero starts getting less interested in wu somewhere around 1370. you switch off wu onto ari in 1623, and say you're hesitant with the wu wagon now on 1791. you did vote ari before him, so credit there.

Nero says there's scum in VP/skitter/yeet in 1506, you say yeet is in your solve in 1658. (you had already leaned scum on yeet earlier, so this isn't a switch of opinion, but you def do not have the opposite read)

Nero says that ari's vote on scorp is bad because she's voting limbait in 1702, you say ari's vote on scorp is bad because she's voting limbait in 1804.

mathblade read is irrelevant because he is claimed mason, so i don't know why you have that as an example of a place where you and Nero differ. the only one that stands is VP. anyway it's not like you're going to agree with him on every single read, so pointing out one where you don't doesn't disprove my point. it's a pattern of general behavior of sheeping after things he says, even down to using the same phrasing that he does

This has me rethinking my fire-scum read, as well as my hesitation on fua.

that's a good point about fua

VOTE: fua

Ari and Fire scum together?

I was planning to comment on this post that I am surprised you did not have a stronger response to fire's well researched and thought out post.

Then I realized this was coming from you, as opposed to just anyone, so I must ask:

Who is ignoring accusations against them now, fua?

VOTE: fua

Ari’s wagon is pure though.

Based on what?

[tenebrousluminary]

fua is scum. Vote for them. Thank you.

According to Malcolm, town-aligned players address any accusations made against them, so he is obligated to vote with me. Anytime now, Malcolm!

[tenebrousluminary]

This doesn’t “just happen” that two masons are wagoned. Means scum likely knew who we were already.

There is paranoia, and then there is this. Math, how is that even possible? You are going too far with your line of logic about the votes against you and monkey.

[tenebrousluminary]

This doesn’t “just happen” that two masons are wagoned. Means scum likely knew who we were already.

There is paranoia, and then there is this. Math, how is that even possible? You are going too far with your line of logic about the votes against you and monkey.

How is what even possible?

10/19 players on me and Monkey
Means scum on me and Monkey

That’s all facts.

I am talking about your assertion that scum knew you were masons already. That does not make sense. Even if they were voting you, they got lucky.

[tenebrousluminary]

There’s a wagon on Ari for a reason
Stop focusing on me if you’re town.

WHAT IS THE REASON FOR THE ARI WAGON?????????

Like I asked for this case more than once, and "she argued with Hem and doesn't vote WU" is not a fucking case. So ELI5


And I'm talking to you because you're 50% of the posts in a LARGE GAME since you entered. If you would chill the fuck out and stop trying to big dick energy the whole game, we could land somewhere good today. There have been 12+ pages added since I got up 5 hours ago, and you can't tell me that is quality work happening in those pages because I read half of them before I had to come here to the future and plead with you to have some sense.

I have to agree. I understand that you are town, Math, but if you could calm down a little and explain yourself more concisely, I think it would be good for the health of the game. I am having more trouble following the game lately, and I feel the percentage of posts I'm reading that are actually helpful or advance the game has cratered. We are just spinning in circles right now and I do not find it helpful.

VP would you settle for a D1 fua lim?

What is the case? I'm sure it got lost in all this shit spew.

I didn't like fua early in the day, but I felt better about them recently after they explained some of their play in that chat with fire.

i talked about how they've been sheeping Nero all game in 1872. idk if i trust the people (tene) who jumped on that to vote for fua tho. yeet had already voted with 1629 and 1635, frogster wanted a lim there apparently but i can't find any reasoning, and skitter had voted with 1372

If you base all your reads on your existing reads, you will never be able to recognize errors.

[tenebrousluminary]

This doesn’t “just happen” that two masons are wagoned. Means scum likely knew who we were already.

There is paranoia, and then there is this. Math, how is that even possible? You are going too far with your line of logic about the votes against you and monkey.

How is what even possible?

10/19 players on me and Monkey
Means scum on me and Monkey

That’s all facts.

I am talking about your assertion that scum knew you were masons already. That does not make sense. Even if they were voting you, they got lucky.

Okay then move on?

Scum are on my wagons
Ari refuses to hunt on those wagons
And instead the scum try to take who I am working with away in fua and Nero

I do not understand why you are upset with me for trying to help you correct a misstep in your thinking.

Not everyone in the game is scum. Some of us have honest opinions. The whole game is not about you and undermining you specifically.

[tenebrousluminary]

[tenebrousluminary]

Based on my understanding of neighbors, I think it would be best if we discounted any assumptions about how many of them must be scum. Assuming exactly one could punish us in multiple situations. Let's just read the players.

[tenebrousluminary]

he is either dumbass town or scum trying to get ahead of the ball here.

What is wrong with revealing this?

[tenebrousluminary]

I claim PR. You can all now feel free to get off of me.

Falling back on this because addressing the accusations is too difficult?

[tenebrousluminary]

We really do be running up all of our confirmable roles, then, huh?

VOTE: GeneralWu

[tenebrousluminary]

I claim PR. You can all now feel free to get off of me.

Falling back on this because addressing the accusations is too difficult?

Here’s my address of every point:

1. You stink at this.

2. I’m town.

3. My role can confirm itself tonight.

4. Get off me.

I do not really appreciate the hypocrisy or the rudeness. Kindly stow both.

[tenebrousluminary]

a vig claim is totally not something a mafia would say...

Uh in this case yes.

Two kills or fua dies?

In the case they are real, there is no need to quite so explicitly draw up for the mafia what they should do with their roleblocker.

[tenebrousluminary]

Wu, since you are here and seem caught up, do you have any scumreads that aren't based on them voting for you?

[tenebrousluminary]

Wu, since you are here and seem caught up, do you have any scumreads that aren't based on them voting for you?

Hello? Is anyone home?

[tenebrousluminary]

I'm starting to read go over some of the sections. Can someone explain to me why MathBlade even claimed both of you guys as Mason to begin with? You two weren't even like that high at that point...

Like what was the point? There was plenty of room to start talking yourselves out of the wagon. Instead MathBlade just decided with like half the required votes on you guys not even halfway into D1 to just throw out the mason bomb immediately.

What is the point of interrogating this? It was probably suboptimal but we cannot exactly undo it now.

These pages have damaged my yeet read successfully but not enough to vote them. I am unsure what case there is against skitter apart from comparisons to other games which I do not really care about.

[tenebrousluminary]

These pages have damaged my yeet read successfully but not enough to vote them

Okay, why?

You did explain thoroughly but like monkey I am not sure I believe the explanation is truthful.

[tenebrousluminary]

I'm with Scorp, honestly. I am caught up, but the last 40 pages have been worse than worthless, and my vim to continue is suffering. At this point, I am ready to just elim Wu and move on.

[tenebrousluminary]

Did you make that entire series of posts solely for the sake of an AI pun?

[tenebrousluminary]

BUT then later we get 1956 where tenebro confidently declares that fua is scum, which is very much at odds with their previous low-confidence posting. This also only occurs after fua has started receiving pressure from others (e.g. fireisred, Ari).

The reason for this post is my own 1931.

[tenebrousluminary]

nero, stop twisting my words, i said i didn't believe that there *has* to be scum in the hood because every mod with more than half a brain cell makes a setup that punishes mindless setup "specc"

This is where I remain as well. Feel free to label me as scum with a neighbor for sticking to it, if you insist.

Furthermore, in the bottom of 266, they treat me like they know I am town.

Can you give me specifics of what you're seeing there?

I think we should consolidate on one of HEM/Tenebro to push pressure and advance game state rather than splitting

Isn't town's biggest power early in large games driving dueling wagons? That's how you get good info for future use. Why do you think we should focus on one and not the other here?

I scumread Tenebro hard based on 116 and the attempt to defuse suspicion by essentially saying it’s just a bandwagon

I don't remember doing this. What do you mean?

“I’m so popular, everyone is looking at me” is basically a degradation of the reason to actually suspect you and dismisses it as a trend rather than a veritable case.

I am not sure how you got that idea from what I wrote, but okay.

It would be difficult for me to think any case against me had merit when I know it to be wrong.

Yes, but I would think you would at least go and defend your position or acknowledge the votes on you. Your playstyle so far has been very dismissive and I find that that typically comes from scum.

Fua looks objectively terrible in this exchange, and isn't even scumreading Tenesbro's 116 for the correct reason (which is that reads like pocketing of Yeet.)

Also, VOTE: fua

Vote Wu or HEM

Perhaps I am able to ascertain why you'd think that. You may have a point.

VOTE: Dragons

Vote Wu or HEM.

Large games should consolidate D1 as fast as possible or we will end up at 100+ pages for D1 and that's just annoying later in the game.

I don't want to right now. If you want me to consider a popular vote target, wait for Nordom's replacement.

That's not Wu or HEM.

Large games are about compromise early on and moving things forward. We will get more info out of running up these Jabronis than we will out of you single voting dragons.

Be a team player!

I'd be interested to know where VP's thoughts stand on tenebros so far, and vice versa. Looking through their ISO there are a lot of soft interactions here without much of an indication as to what VP or tenebros necessarily think of each other as individual players. Like there isn't really a strong defence of tenebros while under pressure, but there's an attempt to paint Fua in a bad light after an exchange with tenebros, for example.

I do not have a strong opinion about VP Baltar. The one thing I dislike from him is his attempt there to push me onto one of two wagons that we now know to both be incorrect. Also, Nero Cain, who I townread, keeps pushing him, but I think I need a condensed version of why as I do not understand it. I am however, open to ideas today because I do not feel like I see who is scum at all.

[tenebrousluminary]

VOTE: Dragons

[tenebrousluminary]

I do not think it makes sense to go after the fua slot today and I think it's possible some maf were hopeful they could get that through. I am becoming a little suspicious of skitter, even though I don't want to as she is really the only player who has taken a firm stance in support of me when I believe scum see me as a mislim they would like to achieve.

It is interesting to me that the scum kill shows no fear of a doctor whatsoever. At least, I would think HEM would be the most obvious save.

[tenebrousluminary]

Eyes and Scorpious have gotten plenty of flak for doing nothing. Why hasn't Dragons? I realize they made one or two slightly townie sounding posts, but the extent to which everyone has completely ignored them does not sit right with me.

[tenebrousluminary]

It's possible. If I were a town doctor though, I would have wanted to see whether a roleblocker existed before I started protecting fua.

[tenebrousluminary]

I feel that at this point Scorp's continued line of posting is not survivalistic at all. It seems calculated to annoy others into voting him, if anything, so I think he may be town.

[tenebrousluminary]

I think tene Scorpious and April should give reads and do things

Huh? Me? I'm playing.

[tenebrousluminary]

Uh oh, now it just sounds like you have an agenda neighbor!

You made that giant post after I called you out and you don't actually vote me?

Who you calling a coward?

For the record, I made a post last night about 30 mins before deadline expired calling out Cape because I didn't want my actual thoughts on the game to go to the grave with me. I figured if I ate a vig shot or something, at least someone who is town could carry on my concerns today.

Judging by the size and extent of that post Cape just made, it seems clear to me he started writing that response about at that point knowing I was going to come out of the gates at him today. The fact there is no vote there on a giant wall case makes no sense.

Did you plan on responding to its substance, or just shading Cape for writing it?

[tenebrousluminary]

I think scum would block a vig even if they knew they would shoot town. They aren't going to shoot top town, they're going to shoot people you want to mislim later anyway, so preventing them from becoming confirmed seems strong.

[tenebrousluminary]

Did you plan on responding to its substance, or just shading Cape for writing it?

I'll look at it in depth and with good faith when I have a moment (which is not now). That being said, I am extremely skeptical a person puts that much effort into a giant post and doesn't vote. It's a failure of being timid as scum.

How long do you think it took Cape to write that and link all those posts? Two hours? You think he just did that on the fly in response to the most I made this morning just a couple hours ago? I'd say that's very unlikely.

What is more likely is he started last night when I posted in our hood and has been honing it with his scum buddies to reply today. He wasn't expecting me to come after him, probably content to let me and Nero fight it out if Nero is town. Cape knew he was going to have to respond with an overwhelming show of effort to sway town to his side. That's fine. I'll let the record speak for itself when I quote you Cape's viewpoint on Wu yesterday. Standby.

I don't see any reason he can't have written it overnight. No one was going to nightkill him after he hammered.

It doesn't read to me like it was "honed with any scumbuddies." The middle of it is actually pretty poorly written and impossible to follow, so I doubt anyone else looked at it.

[tenebrousluminary]

That has nothing to do about agenda and if he was town, he'd spend his time explaining his thought process and reasoning

In what way is his case against you not this?

[tenebrousluminary]

UNVOTE: Cape90 Cape and Baltar is probably TvT.

Why? I don't agree.

[tenebrousluminary]

It feels like at least one of VP and Yeet is scum in this interaction.

[tenebrousluminary]

It feels like at least one of VP and Yeet is scum in this interaction.

Maybe. What are your thoughts on Scorpious?

I gave an opinion on him a few posts ago. Light town because I think scum would stop the line of posting he's made upon observing that no one likes it.

[tenebrousluminary]

It feels like at least one of VP and Yeet is scum in this interaction.

Maybe. What are your thoughts on Scorpious?

I gave an opinion on him a few posts ago. Light town because I think scum would stop the line of posting he's made upon observing that no one likes it.

I don’t think so.

I think that’s inaccurate.

I think Scorpious is a newb scum who doesn’t know how to fake reads (or an old scum that doesn’t care to).

Sure he may not be able to read the entire game if town but a read is not too much to ask.

Hence, light. This is not impossible at all.

[tenebrousluminary]

i genuinely think that town overall is being towny here to the point where scum is running out of places to push, and i think a few people have expressed that sentiment lately and i expect at least one of them to be scum just being honest

Who else has expressed that sentiment and why are you singling me out?

tene in 2650. i already think he's scum. p sure someone else did but i forgot who and can't find it now. i asked you bc i do not townread VP in the cape exchange and thought that maybe you do for a reason

"Town is playing townlike" and "I'm not sure who is scum" aren't the same thing.

[tenebrousluminary]

I mean, ok look, finding scum that are using their words and actually have a thread presence can be hard, especially for a non Mith tier player like myself. I mean, I have played a number of games where scum just does...like literally nothing the whole game and while its mathmaticly impossible for scum to be just eyes/scorp...i think eyes could just very well be scum.

VOTE: eyes

Really? You finally get traction on your push against VP and promptly abandon it? Again?

[tenebrousluminary]

Apologies for the big quotes, but I'm really interested in how the Datisi heat suddenly died off after a while. Like, there's obviously some confirmed town in here, but I always felt like the Datisi heat was pretty poorly constructed and didn't work. Increasingly I'm wondering if there's some solid logic here in the idea that some mafia themselves started to realise it was a rubbish wagon and directed their attentions elsewhere before it got them into more trouble.

experienced scum probably would know that a datisi lim day 1 in a game this large isn't likely to work. but tene probably wouldn't know that

VOTE: tenebro

Just because I have not played mafia here before does not mean I have not played mafia before. I can see that Datisi is charismatic and respected by some of the other players here. In this scenario, I would also have scum partners who could tell me such a thing. His posts simply became better, and that is why I dropped my suspicion. I believe even Datisi would agree that his posts became townier later in Day 1.

[tenebrousluminary]

is there really traction on Vp aren't like 2 only voting there? and even if VP is scum there are 3 outside but im ok with voting a scummy annoying asetic.

VOTE: vp

Only a couple votes, perhaps, but there is also at least one me contemplating him as possible scum too.

[tenebrousluminary]

hello ill be your VP of today, but instead of calling for wagons on wu and monkey who were both town, i will be calling for wagons on tene and VP who are both scum

Not sold on VP.

Tene/Scorpio is a good start

Tene pushed a lurker but didn’t want my choice of lurker

Meaning if Tene is scum Scorpio probably is too

Why am I not allowed to have my own opinions? I was already discussing which lurkers I suspected before you asked me about it, did you expect me to suddenly change my mind?

[tenebrousluminary]

I did not vote Eyes. What are you talking about?

I never said I did not care which lurker, either. I clearly do care. Are you attributing someone else's posts to me?

[tenebrousluminary]

Nah not interested in elimming in the hood unless activity picks up. It’s not a threat to scum so I would rather focus on what is a threat to scum.

If you want me to elim in the hood act like the hood matters

IDK, maybe there is just a lot of distrust in the hood and it's actually townie, but seems likely setup spec there is at least one scum in there. Those are better odds than what I'm seeing being presented as counter cases (fua scum for example). Cleaning the hood would actually make it matter. I don't think that's a bad D2 strat at all.

This continues to be weak thinking. Scumhunt. Don't rely on lazy tools. If the hood is all town and we assume one must be scum we just earned ourselves 4 mislims.

[tenebrousluminary]

Also, even if exactly 1 scum were in the hood, 3/12 (since Math is town) gives the same odds outside the hood as in right now.

[tenebrousluminary]

Math, i'm not opposed to a Scorpious wagon because it's not like we are losing some asset if we're wrong. It feels a little low information even if we hit correctly, but I'll think about it. His vote on me for no reason doesn't make a lot of sense.

We did the "no biggie if we're wrong" wagon yesterday. Now we need to be right.

[tenebrousluminary]

Going for Scorp today is lazy. I think scum would love nothing more than for us to waste another day.

VOTE: VPB, but I think Yeet has an agenda today too.

[tenebrousluminary]

So if I'm understanding correctly, either Fire is mafia with roleblocker, or Fua/Enchant is lying?

If so I'm leaning towards the latter here. I get Fire could be playing a very strong mafia game but they've come across townie as feck to me. And while I can see a vig having a genius call and catching a good player out, Fua's game was a bit all over the place...a Fire kill just seems so baffling from that POV.

There are a lot more possibilities than you have just listed. Fua was not clear about who they would shoot. There's also a possibility of a mafia doctor or BP, although I would rate that as unlikely.

[tenebrousluminary]

I just don't think fire is scum at all, so that explanation isn't one that's going to appeal to me.

Math, i'm not opposed to a Scorpious wagon because it's not like we are losing some asset if we're wrong. It feels a little low information even if we hit correctly, but I'll think about it. His vote on me for no reason doesn't make a lot of sense.

We did the "no biggie if we're wrong" wagon yesterday. Now we need to be right.

From this POV I don't think your STD vote makes much sense. Like they could be mafia, but they've posted so little that you nor any of us don't have much to go on there beyond a vibe. That's a pretty big day two risk, no?

I want them to feel some pressure to contribute and I want to know why others are focusing on the other lurkers instead. I didn't think it was very likely my vote would result in an elim.

[tenebrousluminary]

Going for Scorp today is lazy. I think scum would love nothing more than for us to waste another day.

VOTE: VPB, but I think Yeet has an agenda today too.

Well, I am actually scumhunting and asking questions to determine people's alignments. Big agenda energy.

What are you doing btw? Didn't you vote dragons? Is that fundamentally different from a Scorp wagon?

I do not understand why many players keep pretending that just because several players are lurking they are all identical. Dragons is most notably different because they were the only one of the three to vote GeneralWu. Additionally, I feel they are the most capable of giving more, they have the fewest posts and I have the least sense of who they are within the game.

Going for Scorp today is lazy. I think scum would love nothing more than for us to waste another day.

VOTE: VPB, but I think Yeet has an agenda today too.

Well, I am actually scumhunting and asking questions to determine people's alignments. Big agenda energy.

What are you doing btw?

Didn't you vote dragons? Is that fundamentally different from a Scorp wagon?

Agree with you on this. Fine with tenebros sitting a vote on STD now to put on some pressure, but it's ultimately going for an incredibly low activity poster and the moment you vote for someone you ideally want to convince others to do the same. If not you aren't even putting any pressure on said player. Weird contradiction in tenebros' play.

I do not really have an explanation you will find convincing for this. I like to put my vote where I am thinking. I will call for others to join me if and when my certainty level grows high.

I believe scum see me as a mislim they would like to achieve.

what makes you think this?

Nearly everyone suspects me to some degree or another, but so far I have produced town-indicative content in response to votes against me. I believe that this suspicion persisting in light of the fact I am scumhunting actively and unafraid to take stances indicates something. I believe that I am seen as weak and eventually pushable because I am newer.

It feels like at least one of VP and Yeet is scum in this interaction.

What does this mean? What gives you this feeling? It looks like you just saying something for the sake of saying it

It means I suspect both of them but am not cocky enough to think I have both right, and also that I feel Yeet doing what is effectively defending VP might be too blatant for a partner.

[tenebrousluminary]

Dragons is most notably different because they were the only one of the three to vote GeneralWu. Additionally, I feel they are the most capable of giving more, they have the fewest posts and I have the least sense of who they are within the game.

Also, I have felt at times that Dragons has in fact read the game. Scorp isn't doing anything because they have not read the game. What's Dragons' excuse?

[tenebrousluminary]

Dragons is most notably different because they were the only one of the three to vote GeneralWu. Additionally, I feel they are the most capable of giving more, they have the fewest posts and I have the least sense of who they are within the game.

Also, I have felt at times that Dragons has in fact read the game. Scorp isn't doing anything because they have not read the game. What's Dragons' excuse?

read my posts i've been giving reads and shit

Exactly. You are present enough to have reads. So you are capable of producing content.

[tenebrousluminary]

Dragons is most notably different because they were the only one of the three to vote GeneralWu. Additionally, I feel they are the most capable of giving more, they have the fewest posts and I have the least sense of who they are within the game.

Also, I have felt at times that Dragons has in fact read the game. Scorp isn't doing anything because they have not read the game. What's Dragons' excuse?

read my posts i've been giving reads and shit

Exactly. You are present enough to have reads. So you are capable of producing content.

and i am so what's your point

You appear to be doing so right now. I am explaining why I voted for you a while ago.

[tenebrousluminary]

Nearly everyone suspects me to some degree or another, but so far I have produced town-indicative content in response to votes against me. I believe that this suspicion persisting in light of the fact I am scumhunting actively and unafraid to take stances indicates something. I believe that I am seen as weak and eventually pushable because I am newer.

What do you think is town-indicative about your content.

What stances have you been unafraid to take?

I'm not playing this game anymore.

Is this even a question I can reasonably answer? I am tired of talking about myself. I am constantly being hounded for explanations of everything I do by half the game in a way that does not seem to apply to everyone else, and then I'm attacked for being too defensive. In this case, no one will even care about my answer, since if I know something looks town, I could have done it to look town. Why should I bother?

I have offered reads contrary to popular perception on multiple occasions. If you cannot be bothered to go and look, at this point, neither can I. I'm sick of this.

[tenebrousluminary]

Dragons is most notably different because they were the only one of the three to vote GeneralWu. Additionally, I feel they are the most capable of giving more, they have the fewest posts and I have the least sense of who they are within the game.

Also, I have felt at times that Dragons has in fact read the game. Scorp isn't doing anything because they have not read the game. What's Dragons' excuse?

read my posts i've been giving reads and shit

Exactly. You are present enough to have reads. So you are capable of producing content.

and i am so what's your point

You appear to be doing so right now. I am explaining why I voted for you a while ago.

Not feeling an std elim atm.

Can you explain why you’re so opposed to Scorpio?

I am not "so opposed." I just do not particularly think he is scum. With Dragons actually doing something, I would prefer to pursue someone whose flip will give us a direction now.

[tenebrousluminary]

Deas:

I was scumreading fua on this basis earlier for their poorly thought out attack on me. I am now ignoring the slot due to its vig claim. I am becoming concerned about you, if silently, because you're providing yet another vector by which I am forced to spend all my time defending myself, or so would be the case if I continue to play this game the way you want me to. fire made a strong push against me earlier and I scumread him for it, but in light of his convincing insights on fua, I have rethought this. In fact, that he is not at all concerned with how he is perceived may be a good sign.

One example of my being contrary was taking monkey's side against Aristeia. I was also one of the first to go after Datisi, but since everyone seemed to think I only did so because Yeet did first, I do not expect this to resonate. I feel there are likely more examples but again cannot be arsed to look for them and if you wish to park your vote on me for that, so be it.

But overall, at this point, it's the softer and more timid shading of me coming from other places that I'm more concerned about. I'm being kept in the elim pool and saved for later. No, I do not have an exhaustive list of who is guilty of this. My thinking is evolving in real time. Surely I don't read as someone who showed up to today with a plan given what a mess my suspicions have been.

[tenebrousluminary]

One example of my being contrary was taking monkey's side against Aristeia.

why hasn't my taking of monkey's side against aristeia shaped your read of me

I don't think you're partners with her, if that helps.

At the time, I didn't suspect her and your take was pretty hot. I just thought she was making a bad argument.

[tenebrousluminary]

My guess on Scorp's alignment is looking pretty good right now.

[tenebrousluminary]

Scorp do you truly believe that people should have been reading you as town based on your posting, and if so, why?

What gave you the impression he thought so? I don't see him saying that.

[tenebrousluminary]

Scorp do you truly believe that people should have been reading you as town based on your posting, and if so, why?

up until about 45 minutes ago, nah

It seems surprising then that you would react in such a way to suspicion of you, insisting that it is random etc.

PEdit @tenebro: by dismissing reasoning against them as random and taking issue with people voting for them

"Your reasoning sucks" isn't the same statement as "you should be townreading me." Kinda seems like you want him to look worse than the way what he's actually putting out looks.

[tenebrousluminary]

And to boot, I don't think he knows Math is a mason.

[tenebrousluminary]

And to boot, I don't think he knows Math is a mason.

This is going to make heads explode, and then I have to commute...

How would I know if anyone is a Mason? was it said? is it implied?

Did i just miss it in the 50 pages i missed?

be back later

It has been said repeatedly and at length, yes. And if you were scum, you'd have read it in your scum thread. You're not aware of it because you're town.

Q: A scum scorp would benefit from a strong roleclaim. So why does he claim VT at E-6?
A: He doesn't.

[tenebrousluminary]

Am I going against the flow yet?

[tenebrousluminary]

Q: A scum scorp would benefit from a strong roleclaim. So why does he claim VT at E-6?

Spoiler:

He doesn't exactly give off mastermind vibes.

[tenebrousluminary]

I don't think either Scorpious or STD have done anything to particularly clear themselves as of yet, and I kinda agree with Deas' post above that Scorpious' reluctance to accept why they might be suspected doesn't look great.

But I'm kinda wary on eliminating either at the moment. A lot of the suspicion of them still feels more vibes-based than evidence-based right now. That's fine on turn one when you lack concrete info to eliminate someone but I don't think it's necessarily how we should be pursuing turn two. It feels like a somewhat safe vote...if they come back clean then the people who voted them can say they just felt bad and more active posters directing traffic get to influence the game while maybe being mafia.

I'd be interested in how they approach turn three if they get through. Both have been more active but if they go silent after being in the clear for a round then that's very suspect.

Anyway I'm not liking tenebros posts in the past few pages. The STD vote from the past has felt quite weak for someone portraying themselves as "actively scumhunting", it's basically just getting vibes from a low-count poster to be honest. The idea they've regularly gone against mainstream reads as well doesn't really hold that much ground, like who cares, everyone at some point in the game who's town should be going for a read or two that doesn't just align with the majority, it's part of the game, and using it as an attempted defence smacks of desperation a little bit.

I am the opposite of desperate. What I am is nearly out of fucks to give.

[tenebrousluminary]

Vote me then. I'm done trying to defend myself. Either vote me or don't, I don't care. But either way, let's get it over with.

[tenebrousluminary]

So who wants me to claim.

No. Why would you even say this?

[tenebrousluminary]

What a predictable post. You're beginning to get boring, Deas.

[tenebrousluminary]

Scorpious is not scum. Have a little courage and go after your friends.

[tenebrousluminary]

It is easier to push nobodies than established players, and many of you clearly know each other. That is my latest theory for why we are seeing a push as lame as the one against Scorp, and said push persisting in spite of his townie reaction.

[tenebrousluminary]

It is easier to push nobodies than established players, and many of you clearly know each other. That is my latest theory for why we are seeing a push as lame as the one against Scorp, and said push persisting in spite of his townie reaction.

by expand i meant name names

It is a general admonition. I am sure this is not the answer you are looking for. Math I suppose is one person who could stand to be more courageous, since I know his uninteresting pushes are not due to being scum.

[tenebrousluminary]

It is easier to push nobodies than established players, and many of you clearly know each other. That is my latest theory for why we are seeing a push as lame as the one against Scorp, and said push persisting in spite of his townie reaction.

I have brought this up. It’s a sore subject with some. I have noticed some and I emphasize some people around here would rather knowingly mislim a “nobody”(should I be insulted? Lol) and play longer with their friends.

Apologies, I just get the sense that you don't seem to be in the in-group.

[tenebrousluminary]

It is easier to push nobodies than established players, and many of you clearly know each other. That is my latest theory for why we are seeing a push as lame as the one against Scorp, and said push persisting in spite of his townie reaction.

by expand i meant name names

It is a general admonition. I am sure this is not the answer you are looking for. Math I suppose is one person who could stand to be more courageous, since I know his uninteresting pushes are not due to being scum.

Pushing HEM’s reads to me is courageous
Not hyperposting is courageous
Uncourageous would be checking out after Wu flip and doing Skitter

It seems to me that skitter is widely suspected yet doesn't receive significant vote volume. I don't feel the same, but why not?

[tenebrousluminary]

Tene. You’ve been the most “acceptant” of my content…

Why?

I felt your string of posts on the page where you were calling the attack against you random read as very genuine. I also don't think you were faking not knowing that math is confirmed town.

[tenebrousluminary]

Pressure sometimes works for affecting people but sometimes it’s more about people’s reactions to it.

yup, and I can see you setting your trap. If I don't respond I'm avoiding.

If I do I'm overreacting...

Not my first rodeo homie..

again, I've been down this road. When a hyper posting heavy hitting hyper poster starts promoting wagons they usually go through, so just take note of the posts that will ultimately end up in my mislim and use the knowledge from there.. I already know where this is heading..

These ones looked good to me for example.

I also son't see much benefit to your outing as VT if you were scum.

[tenebrousluminary]

It is easier to push nobodies than established players, and many of you clearly know each other. That is my latest theory for why we are seeing a push as lame as the one against Scorp, and said push persisting in spite of his townie reaction.

by expand i meant name names

It is a general admonition. I am sure this is not the answer you are looking for. Math I suppose is one person who could stand to be more courageous, since I know his uninteresting pushes are not due to being scum.

it is not the answer i am looking for because your post was a response to deas. so i would like to hear who specifically are the friends of deas that you think he should be voting. i want names. if you're town you had someone in mind when you said that.

otherwise it's just hollow and vaguely threatening

Then I guess I must not be town, because I was not aiming it at him specifically. Great job. You got me. Bake me away, toys.

I am done discussing this. Thanks!

[tenebrousluminary]

It was a general admonition to the whole game. Prompted by Math's post maybe. You do not like my answer. Okay. Get me killed or die mad about it. Next.

I have done enough defending and explaining. Whether this is a scum plot to keep me occupied so they can call me defensive or townies being wrong, I don't much care. At this point, I am declaring that others' incorrect reads on me and my actions are their problem, not mine. Develop whatever opinion you like.

[tenebrousluminary]

tenebro, have you explained why you think scorp isn't scum? pls link/quote if you have

3014 3016

[tenebrousluminary]

the "self-consciousness" is scummy if coming from a new player, but nai if coming from an experienced player, and they've claimed they're experienced so /shrug

Do you think their play if town is consistent with that of an experienced player?

You don't need to phrase every attack as a question

[tenebrousluminary]

But seriously, I'm not sure what you mean exactly in regards to that post in particular.

(@Tenebro)

Just a couple of times now I've noticed you asking someone else a leading question where the answer is I'm scum. You can just say it!

[tenebrousluminary]

Tenebro, it feels as if you are accusing me of being vague and indirect when I have very directly stated that I want you eliminated (which you have also taken issue with).

When engaging with VP, I clearly stated why I disagreed with his assessment.

In regards to Datisi, I am trying to get a solid idea of what is actually informing his read of you.

Use of buzz phrases such as "leading questions" and implying that I am not being forthcoming appear like subtle ways of discrediting me and my approach.

I think the questions make you sound genuinely interested in the answers and offer an air of reasonability, but I don't think you really are trying to have an earnest conversation in either case.

[tenebrousluminary]

tenebro, have you explained why you think scorp isn't scum? pls link/quote if you have

3014 3016

ehhh. i guess. not knowing math is confirmed is very easily fakeable (and he was obviously gonna fake not knowing shit, if going by his entry posts) and the vt claim is wifom more than not

i don't really find his posts genuine sounding but eh

are you still on vpb? what's the case against him currently?

I am still there, yes. I thought his reaction to cape's case - ignoring what was said and focusing on burying Cape instead - scummy.

Whoever thinks of saying this applies to me first gets detention.

[tenebrousluminary]

Like I don't think a Scorpious wagon is a particularly great idea, but you can't say claim they're an easy target and then pivot onto STD instead. Major inconsistency.

Good thing that is not the order in which those events happened.

[tenebrousluminary]

Would you be happy with STD's elimination now? If not why did you spend so much time putting pressure on them instead of a player who might actually be eliminated?

Not especially.

"So much time" meaning I voted him and barely said anything else about it?

[tenebrousluminary]

How does this magical "player who might be eliminated" status come about if not by starting somewhere, anyway? Why am I only allowed to vote for certain players? This is yet another narrative that has repeatedly been pushed on me and only me.

[tenebrousluminary]

The last two of those are me explaining my past actions because you all won't leave me alone for five full minutes, not pushing him.

[tenebrousluminary]

But you're saying you didn't even actually want him to be eliminated? That's my point.

I am saying I now do not want that. Because that is the question you asked me. You did not ask me whether I wanted that at the time. This bullshit is exactly what I am tired of.

Why can you simply not reply to an accusation with a basic response that doesn't attempt to deflect from the issue at hand?

I have done so endlessly and been repeatedly told that I am not doing it while doing it. Kindly shove it.

[tenebrousluminary]

Luminary are you pushing Malcolm now, what is happening?

No. I am merely being frustrated.

[tenebrousluminary]

Like the posts you made on STD yesterday were more developed than your reads on any other player.

This is simply a lie.

Go away.

[tenebrousluminary]

I am today's elim. It's clear that's what the people want. Get on with it and quit demanding responses from me when you have already decided not to be satisfied with them before I even start typing.

[tenebrousluminary]

fua.

[tenebrousluminary]

You'll notice I am making no effort to persuade you of anything.

I have not asked for a free pass. I have asked to not be held to different standards than anyone else. I have said that I don't intend to defend myself endlessly anymore and you can judge me based on other things because I have found doing so with this group to be a waste of time. You can talk about finding me suspicious all you want. I just don't want to spend any more time saying the same thing 5 different ways.

[tenebrousluminary]

I do not think it makes sense to go after the fua slot today and I think it's possible some maf were hopeful they could get that through. I am becoming a little suspicious of skitter, even though I don't want to as she is really the only player who has taken a firm stance in support of me when I believe scum see me as a mislim they would like to achieve.

It is interesting to me that the scum kill shows no fear of a doctor whatsoever. At least, I would think HEM would be the most obvious save.

Sorry tenebros, but this does not reflect the idea that fua (enchant now I think?) was your main suspect yesterday at all. And I am specifically talking about turn two here, which I have made clear.

After they claimed vig? No shit, Sherlock.

[tenebrousluminary]

I did not have a consistent main target yesterday. It is almost as though I change my reads based on new information like someone who is trying to solve the game with an open mind. I spent plenty of time suspecting fua before they claimed vig. You may misrep that as much as you please.

[tenebrousluminary]

I am done with this conversation now. Feel free to continue to vote wrong and/or be scum. Have a nice day.

[tenebrousluminary]

VP, Deas, maybe Yeet or April. Excited to come under fire for bringing up a new read I haven't mentioned in response to being specifically asked for my reads!

[tenebrousluminary]

I don't see what the point of the inquisition is anymore. You have enough ammo to get me killed, so go do it instead of wasting my time.

[tenebrousluminary]

Perfect mafia win.

Good prediction.

[tenebrousluminary]

I am not sure how to answer that. I was accused of being evasive while not being evasive for a long time and have now become evasive in response. I am certainly having difficulty strolling myself from being passive aggressive, but I would like to stop if i can.

[tenebrousluminary]

VP, didn't you say you would address cape's case on you? Have you done so?

[tenebrousluminary]

VP, didn't you say you would address cape's case on you? Have you done so?

Hello? Is anyone home?

[tenebrousluminary]

VP, didn't you say you would address cape's case on you? Have you done so?

Hello? Is anyone home?

I did. Read the game. You expect me to reply to all 400 posts he links that are meaningless? Not going to happen.

Link me to where you respond to the substance rather than just attack Cape for posting it.

[tenebrousluminary]

I did a quick skim and did not find the above. I also recall you acknowledging this and saying you would address it when you had more time.

[tenebrousluminary]

Save 2807, those seem like mainly just trying to discredit him to me, but okay