Large Normal 238 | Weiqi, Baduk, Go | Endgame

[fireisredsir]

Do I give you a similar impression, fire?

yeet was there a reason you asked this?

[fireisredsir]

but I think what I'm picking up on here is real.

is this your strongest scumread at the moment? what other scumreads do you have?

[fireisredsir]

but I think what I'm picking up on here is real.

is this your strongest scumread at the moment? what other scumreads do you have?

I still want to yeet the fuck out of cape, but that was going nowhere. People are willing to give him a pass today even though he is doing nothing and had a very questionable hammer yesterday, as I've explained.

If I was going to compromise on something, I might be willing to back a tenebros wagon, but I go back and forth there.

that's not really directly answering what i asked. should i take that as a "no, cape is. i don't have others right now"?

[fireisredsir]

nah VP brought up frogster in 3168, p sure he was the first one

[fireisredsir]

@fire - this is a very recent post from me that indicates where my head is at in terms of scum hunting. My frogster realization came after this obv.

Are you asking for like a ranked reads list or something?

yea I've read that. i don't think it's a bad mentality (i kind of agree?) but it is v much keeping your options open and not really saying a whole lot of anything about your own suspicions. like when ari did something similar earlier, she was like "i think there's scum in the lower activity players, and scorpio looks the most scummy of those, so i will vote there". cool. great. your post kind of does the first part, except that you offer two possibilities that kinda include most of the playerlist, and then name one player and two pairs in a sort of offhand non-commital way.

i just want to know who you think looks scummy on an individual level. if you want to give a ranked list, go for it, that would answer my question, but it's not necessary, just give some names of who you individually scumread.

[fireisredsir]

i mean i don't really trust the claim either but is that the best lim today? won't we only have more info tomorrow?

[fireisredsir]

but i mean, if the scum RB is stuck on enchant, that's... not that bad?

[fireisredsir]

i guess the idea is that they could be a scum PR and maf team gains a lot of value by keeping them alive another night? otherwise i don't see the point. if they don't get confirmed, it means we just lim them later, and if they're real then occupying the roleblocker seems like a positive. and then there's the chance that they do get confirmed, unless you really think the chance of them being town is so small that it's not worth leaving them alive

[fireisredsir]

i thought fua was v scummy and didn't really believe the claim anyway, so i will gladly join the wagon when the time comes. im just not really convinced that the time is now

[fireisredsir]

still feeling tene but wavering a little ig. have considered switching to VP a couple times and might do so. slightly interested in yeet but I haven't been focused there

[fireisredsir]

datisi what are your VP thoughts? last i remember you slightly townleaned on him, is that still true and if so why?

[fireisredsir]

Why are you scum leaning me again, fire? I know you've been vaguely name dropping me, but don't think I understand why.

1) as an overall trend, the biggest thing for me is that i think a lot of your reads and takes feel pretty surface level in a way that lacks the nuance i would expect from an experienced player. like a prime recent example is 3266, hard to believe you really think that is scum-indicitave for nero, and why call it scummy if it's not? a few other recent examples are 2648, 2685, 2706, 2824

2) some of your pushes and interactions with people feel forced and artificial. 684, 1040, 1194, 1208 are examples. not a big deal imo but it pings (ping ping ping) a lil bit

3) didn't like the way you were leaving your options wide open and dancing around committing to specific scumreads today.

4) even yesterday i didn't really get the feeling you honestly believed wu was that scummy? just felt like you were filling the "good townie" role of herding people towards consolidating wagons (on 2 town btw), and then later you were just saying it was the "logical play" (2128) and that "we will get a lot of information" (1939), but then after the flip, you say "the wagon doesn't help clarify a ton for me" (2988), so i guess it wasn't a good information flip after all?

5) i don't really buy your cape suspicion, just doesn't feel genuine. like, 3249? tell me that's honest. you think he's maf cause of his hammer and that he has "done nothing" despite him being way more involved today? it feels like you feel obligated to be sus of him due to his case on you but it just doesn't feel like your heart is in it at all.

[fireisredsir]

3) How was I leaving my options open? I responded with a very concrete list when you asked. If I was leaving options open, I would have put far more people as potentials for me. I listed three stronger preferences.

i had to ask you three times, and your first two responses felt like dodging the question. the final list was fine, im talking about how you felt reluctant to give one, and weren't really stating many scumreads until I asked you about it

5) Cape is not doing much today. His case on me was not good if you actually read it, it's just large, which people too often conflate with "good". I addressed anything that would even remotely objectively be considered to be a real point, and showed why they are not good. Who is Cape pushing today? Other than popping in to say "anyone like an april wagon", I haven't seen him do much to further the game today. The fundamental consideration with Cape is whether you believe he didn't actually see the pile of votes on Wu before he hammered. After I deeply questioned him on this, I can maybe see a world where he did not, but if he's town I'd like to see a lot more from him today to help me get there in believing that.

i think cape's case had a couple good points but overall wasn't amazing but was also pretty towny for cape. im just really unenthused by the hammer as being a main reason of suspicion, like wu was gonna die at that point. imo he clearly didn't know it was a hammer but i don't really think it's ai either way. all of that is irrelevant to my point tho which is that i don't feel like cape being your top scumread is supported by your prior tone or behavior. i just don't see the town in you on that point. if you're sus of him bc of his case on you being bad just say that. that's what i FEEL from you, but your words give other reasons that are kinda weak and don't feel like you really care about them that much. it smells like someone who does genuinely think the case is bad, and is annoyed about that, but doesn't want to sus for that bc that would look bad or something. and that smells more like maf to me

[fireisredsir]

if vp and/or fua are scum then ill probs be convinced i was wrong about you

i already was heading that way when i was pretty sure fua was maf but then they claimed so that went out the window. but maybe they're maf anyway

[fireisredsir]

i think cape's case had a couple good points but overall wasn't amazing but was also pretty towny for cape.

Why was a case that you admit is not that good towny?

I don't have experience with cape, so is this meta I'm not understanding?

it's not that it's towny because it's not good, it's towny cause it feels, as you called it, "stream of consciousness and aimless". it's kinda disorganized but it shows a clear thought process. idk cape meta cause he only has a few games and all are town but it does fit in pretty well with how he posts as town from what ive read

[fireisredsir]

trying to steal my lawyer job, huh? add it to the list of scum reasons imo

[fireisredsir]

i am kind of curious about fire (and if anyone else said it) comment that towns are towning because that's really not the vibe i'm getting from the game, at least around the 110's pages - i feel like every second post is filled with either crappy logic or icky push that makes me feel like we're not gonna have a good time

funny you mention it cause i was just about to say that lately my mind has changed and i don't trust anyone anymore

[fireisredsir]

i mean Nero said he was NM this game and would lolhammer anything, why not just let him do it

[fireisredsir]

i mean Nero said he was NM this game and would lolhammer anything, why not just let him do it

I deff said I do it yesterday, don't think I said I'd do it the whole game or not.

yea i meant yesterday, as in why is it such a scummy thing for cape to have hammered when the scum team was probs just sitting back and letting town do it cause they knew that they would? and you had already said you would hammer anything

[fireisredsir]

I think Dats was trying to say that I'm "scummy" for still being willing to vote Wu after Hem/he/VP quick voted but I think I had already said I'd hammer Wu before the rapd votes and it was already a bloated 9p+ pages. p sure he's just scum gearing up for a push on me though.

not talking about his suspicion on you, i'm talking about the suspicion of cape for the hammer. people keep pushing it as this big scummy thing and it feels very meh to me

[fireisredsir]

Why the enchant hard town read?

I don't believe scum claim vig on day one just for the lolz. It's a very risky play that could be CC'd or result in them getting shot by the real vig or them getting yeeted soon enough when there is no other kill at night. It just doesn't make sense to me that fua was scum and claimed that unprompted

it wasn't really unprompted, they were the leading wagon and were gaining votes, and had 6 on them at the time

[fireisredsir]

I think I have gotten myself into a tunnel and after a reassessment I am no longer sure of this read.

UNVOTE: Tenebro

Reading through tenebro’ Iso again, I am more inclined to think that the dismissive nature is an unhelpful way of communicating, but I don’t actually think it lines up with the scum-tenebro image that I had created for myself. If I thought that tenebro was scum trying to blend in and appease, then their approach to suspicion in fact does the opposite.

I am happy to discuss with anyone regarding this, and would particularly be interested if anyone thinks I am making a mistake in backing off this, but I think it’s more likely that tenebro-scum was a world I wanted to be true rather than one that actually is true.

yea ive been starting to feel this way as well. i wanted to keep the tene wagon leading to see if anyone would try to push it in, but eh might as well switch now. eyes is p much as good as voting there, with a townread on VP and a scumread on tene.

VOTE: VP Baltar

[fireisredsir]

STD/Malcolm still my highest scum reads. There's probably one in the main mix of things, I just don't know where it's at currently.

i think STD is town, he seems pure to me, but i could see a world where malcolm is maf

[fireisredsir]

Can someone do a TLDR on why VP please? I mean the wagon looks like crap and has most of my SRs but I am wondering if I have my reads messed up.

Based on the VCs it’s probably pretty likely tene is scum and there’s a ton of hyper activity for not tene

my reasons are in 3361. as someone who was voting tene until recently, i don't think your gamestate read is accurate.

[fireisredsir]

i think that tene was more likely to be a VP counterwagon than the other way around, based on the way things developed

[fireisredsir]

im less convinced on tene cuz i think the "they're just like that" argument is believable. ive called them out all game for comments that i think on the surface look scummy, but they haven't really made any efforts to change in a way that would make them look more towny. it kinda feels like it's just their personality/posting style. they could still be scum but I'm not as into it as before and i think VP is more likely

[fireisredsir]

originally thought deas was a possibility but he left tene for reasons i agree with so maybe he is town after all. malcolm would be pretty believable. eyes was positioning to join the tene wagon but didn't vote yet, he is a strong possibility. and then the 4th is probably like yeet or someone who doesn't want to commit to either main wagon

[fireisredsir]

or there's always still enchant

[fireisredsir]

i think the thing is that tene lim probably would have gone through (it was at 6 vs 4 on VP, with at least one or two more people willing to vote there) if me and deas hadn't switched off. and me and deas have been the two going after tene the hardest. so unless you think we're scum with tene and just hard bussing him, the wagon didn't dissolve due to scum partners moving away from it

[fireisredsir]

so my point is that i think the tene wagon is what the maf team wanted to happen. you're saying the the VCs indicate that tene is scum and there is activity for not tene. im saying i don't think that view is supported by what happened

[fireisredsir]

i don't get how your proposal of 2 scum on the tene wagon is supporting your point that tene is scum either

[fireisredsir]

yea actually agreed that scorp and frog look more like attempted CWs. maybe i phrased it wrong, what i meant was that i think maf team were angling towards wanting tene to be the elim instead of VP. the wagon already existed tho and was probably mostly town, but prob had a maf or two on it/ready to get on it.

[fireisredsir]

also... if the people on one wagon are more static and people elsewhere are jumping around, doesn't that make it more likely that the static one is on scum and the rest of the team is trying to find another place to push that will stick?

[fireisredsir]

ah alright, sure

i don't see why town!me implies some grand powerwolves since i recall not agreeing with your vca theories but what else is new

It’s more the odds of almost every D1 wagon being on town and not having power wolves is unlikelu

so why can't that be VP who was pushing everyone towards consolidating on wu/HEM?

[fireisredsir]

who is?

[fireisredsir]

yeah, again, this is where VP's insinuations don't match what he's actually saying. when asked to commit to some actual individual scumreads, he lists 6 people (3297) and none of them are nero, but here he's discrediting nero in a way that can only imply that he thinks nero is scum. it's just shade for the sake of shade and he doesn't actually believe it. i don't know why anyone would do that unless they're maf

[fireisredsir]

saying that my case is mostly about feelings isn't really accurate. there's a mismatch between your text and your subtext. you keep demanding that people look at what actions are scummy, and that's because you've done a good job to make sure your actions on the face of it aren't very scummy. but the issue is that what you are implying and insinuating with some of your posts a lot of times does not line up with your stated beliefs. and that's not about personality, it's not about feelings, it's a mindset slip. you are not accurately recreating a town mindset, because i don't think you believe some of the things that you are saying or implying.

i can tell that you're frustrated by some of the cases on you. people usually are, as town or maf. but does town imply that nero's case comes from scum without actually believing that he is? does town imply that they think cape's case is bad and scummy and frustrating while stating that he is a top scumread for unrelated reasons, while also never really pushing there in earnest? maybe they do, but i think you should be able to see why i think it's less likely

[fireisredsir]

This us an incredible misrep. I did push there. It was how I spent the first half of my day. People are obviously not eager to join a cape wagon. I understand to some degree that there isn't a slam dunk case there, so I can only point out what I see. I'm not going to act belligerent about getting my way if I'm not managing to convince people with the facts I've pointed out repeatedly.

eh i think your iso tells a different story. the key word there is "earnest". you pushed him a little about his hammer, then he wallposted you, then you talked about how the wallpost was bad for a while, then a bit more about his hammer, then you moved on to other things. but anyway the main point is about your reasons, not about whether you pushed or not. when asked about it later you said he was your top scumread but that it was for how he acted around the hammer and that he had done nothing today. that's weak, and i don't believe that you believe that.

when you were arguing back against his wallpost, you were implying that he was scummy for it. but later, that apparently didn't factor into your scumread. i think that's because you know he's town, you know the case looks towny even if it's not very good, and so you didn't want to list it as a reason. you wanted to stick to the scummy actions of his, just like you're telling other people to do, those are safe and objective. that doesn't feel honest, doesn't feel like town

As far as Nero and do I call out his case as being BS reasons and a smear campaign even if I think he might be town? yes! Of course I do. Some town players do this and act as honorary scum, as previously stated. Pointing out how bunk what he is saying actually is does not reflect poorly on me, and you saying it does is kind of bullshit.

that's not what im talking about. you are obv allowed and expected to point out when a case made against you is bad even if he might be town. your mistake was in 3603. that's not pointing out BS reasons. that's creating a scum narrative for his play. and you and i both know that you don't really believe he's scum, so why did you do it? maf has motivation to appeal to the crowd and discredit his case, they don't have to be honest about how they feel. why would you do it as town?

[fireisredsir]

The other main thing for me is the Day 2 vote progression. I don't like the vote on tenebros in 3392 nor the rationalisation in 3479. I think it's fairly obvious that a big part of VP voting tenebro (as town or scum) would be because it was a more popular wagon than VP's other scumreads, yet VP seems to avoid admitting that, and the change of vote in 3502 seems to be pretending that the fact that the tenebro wagon fell apart is not why VP's changing his vote.

i knew there was something i was forgetting to bring up as an example of what he implies his reasons to be not looking like the genuine explanation of his actions. both of those votes follow the same pattern

[fireisredsir]

@april, if you think tene and VP are both town, why do you think things shifting from tene to VP is a sign of scum taking action?

[fireisredsir]

idk, i think tene lim would've gone through if me/DV didn't switch. it was at 6 and there were a couple more people willing to vote there.

eyes what's your answer?

[fireisredsir]

idk, i think tene lim would've gone through if me/DV didn't switch. it was at 6 and there were a couple more people willing to vote there.

eyes what's your answer?

Interesting, the 2 of you were at another key point together. I'll have to go back and look, but if a townie goes off, that's often a time for scum to hop off too.

Also, scum hop off to look townie often because they're afraid of being on a wagon that's gonna make them look bad.

yea, i have felt a few times that if my reads are wrong then i would be kinda sus of DV cause it does feel like he's following me around a bit. but it could just be that we're seeing the game in a similar way, and there's been times i think where he's been the first one instead of me. p sure he unvoted tene first, altho i was expressing some willingness to already

[fireisredsir]

considering i had eyes and yeet as top picks for VP partners idk if i can really endorse this

but maybe im wrong, idk

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: Malcolm

at first i didn't buy the "im for sure getting elimmed so here are my last words... take me away..." from VP considering he isn't really in immediate danger of a lim, but. maybe i do buy it. i'm ok with seeing what happens here instead

[fireisredsir]

also it took great effort to overcome my urges and not go with my initial instinct of "im obvtown so anyone suspecting me is confscum gg lock em up"

oh and i still think VP/malc is decently likely

[fireisredsir]

also it took great effort to overcome my urges and not go with my initial instinct of "im obvtown so anyone suspecting me is confscum gg lock em up"

oh and i still think VP/malc is decently likely

Interesting. I hadn't really thought about that pairing, but I can see some cases for it.

Malcolm hasnt hopped onto the VPB wagon, and VPB has shied away from Malcolm.

I'll keep it in the back of my mind, not necessarily feeling it, but it's something I'll think about.

I really liked VPB's last hurrah post.

when you first brought up malcolm, him and VP as a pairing was my first thought. i think it makes sense with the tene wagon, and some of the interactions early. but that's from the perspective of thinking VP is the scummier one, so idk if it's as clear of a connection in the other direction

[fireisredsir]

I'm more thinking you could be scum than suspecting you, if that makes sense.

meant VP not you. your POV makes a lot of sense and i think it is p reasonable for you to think i am possible scum from the perspective of actions and movement and all that jazz. i also have been considering a possible world where DV is scum for a while now, so that part makes sense to me

[fireisredsir]

What do you mean I'm not in danger of getting limmed? I was at E-2. That is pretty much the definition of in danger on D2 of a large.

who else do you think would have voted you? i guess this is more from my POV of still thinking you're likely maf so your teammates probs wouldn't. if you're town then maybe you were in some danger, idk, i didn't think you were that likely to be elimmed but maybe im wrong

[fireisredsir]

If you think we are partners, why are you getting off my much bigger wagon?

i think it's a possibility. and cause i think april has cool ideas and im a big fan of the sudden unexpected wagon to see if it throws scum off their balance

[fireisredsir]

Sorry but you're a better player than this I reckon, the idea of a team of me and VP just doesn't work. Like I've put consistent pressure on that slot at times which would be unnecessary from mafia.

nah the interactions read as possibly partner pressure to me. scum def would do that especially on a player like VP who has said himself that he very rarely gets elimmed

[fireisredsir]

This makes me a little sad because I’d like to think that the vibing is genuine but it’s okay, I get it.

it could be ): but i mean if ive been wrong about all the directions so far that we've pushed together (nordom, i think fua too, tene, VP) then im gonna start getting nervous. if tene or VP (or fua? idr if you pushed them too) are maf then i will be more likely to trust you again

[fireisredsir]

Sorry Fire, but none of this makes sense from the point of me and VP being teammates. I'm genuinely baffled at this because your reads have been solid so far but VP has consistently been someone I've applied pressure to. There's no incentive to most of these posts from a mafia POV given VP has been under consistent pressure.

what makes you think my reads are solid? i don't feel very confident in them

also disagree, those kind of posts are very in the range of what maf partners will do

[fireisredsir]

i have the opposite impression, his reaction is what made me decide to switch

[fireisredsir]

i don't get why you're so hung up on the VP partner thing lol, i mentioned it as an aside to april cause i think it's a possibility. it's not and wasn't ever my reason for switching, and i never said it was

[fireisredsir]

i didn't think you were that likely to be elimmed

If you're town!fire, and you see scum!vp at fucking E-2, do you ditch that wagon and then say "lol, this lim wasn't going to happen"?

That's insane! You barely have to do any kind of convincing to finish my lim at that point. Fire doesn't believe in what they are saying. These are votes of convenience and popularity. Fire is going with the flow and using other people's suspicions to drive his own, as I stated in my wagon analysis.

huh? why do you think I'm convinced that you're scum? it's day 2 I'm not convinced of anything. there's enough things that you've done that i think are scummy that i would like to see you elimmed, but there's enough things you've done that are towny that I'm ok going another direction

[fireisredsir]

me saying that you weren't that likely to be elimmed wasn't a reason for my switch, it was a reason for why at first I was kinda skeptical of your final words post. but then i reconsidered and i think it's a decently towny post

[fireisredsir]

that doesn't make any sense if you think about it for more than 2 seconds but okay

if im hard committed to you as scum there is zero reason for me to peel off especially when you specifically called out beforehand that scum would do that

[fireisredsir]

but as town idc what you think, the malc wagon sounds more fun and you might be town so im switching

[fireisredsir]

Lol this guy says he isn't arguing I'm scum. Very unsure!

didn't say that lol. obv i was arguing you were scum before. but i wasn't convinced, i never am

[fireisredsir]

fire is eating dinner, relax

[fireisredsir]

oh and i still think VP/malc is

decently likely

Totally off hand comment and he thinks I'm possibly town!

.......yes? that is accurate what's your point

[fireisredsir]

Fire is stunlocked

What does that mean?

He went quiet and doesn't have an actual reply to all the times he called me scum and yet bails off my wagon at the cusp of my green flip

i did respond, but you're arguing against something that isn't reality. i thought you were likely scum before. i think you're likely scum now, although i was starting to doubt it (but your current line of attack is so silly that you're starting to convince me again). malc wagon seemed more fun

[fireisredsir]

Lol this guy says he isn't arguing I'm scum. Very unsure!

didn't say that lol. obv i was arguing you were scum before. but i wasn't convinced, i never am

So you always argue people are scum up to e-2 that you're unsure about? How unsure were you?

what kind of a question is this lmao? yes??? that's how mafia works?? everyone is always unsure

[fireisredsir]

I can't both be decently likely scum and you being unsure.

no??? do you think unsure = has no idea? unsure = not 100% sure

[fireisredsir]

(vp is stunlocked)

[fireisredsir]

Mafia run from committing. Town are unafraid at the moment of limming

this is so basic and formulaic, you've been playing for like 15 years there's no shot you believe this

[fireisredsir]

also it took great effort to overcome my urges and not go with my initial instinct of "im obvtown so anyone suspecting me is confscum gg lock em up"

i think maybe my initial instinct was right

confscum gg lock em up

VOTE: VP Baltar

[fireisredsir]

sorry april maybe another time

[fireisredsir]

VP April Datisi Skitter?

that would be an absolutely nutty team and im pretty sure they would be doing better than they are if that were the case

[fireisredsir]

Are we over this VPB wagon yet?

The DV-Fire line is sketching it up, and I really don't think it's an optimal fade.

im not. i don't think his attacks (or his willingness to die) are genuine. but if it's not gonna happen id switch back to malc

[fireisredsir]

Also like it or not, you have to face the fact that at least one of me/Fire is town.

So you are saying one of you is definitely scum? Also, how is this a fact?

idk what happened in the last 24 hours to make you start not understanding what words mean but ig it's a pattern now

[fireisredsir]

Also like it or not, you have to face the fact that at least one of me/Fire is town.

So you are saying one of you is definitely scum? Also, how is this a fact?

idk what happened in the last 24 hours to make you start not understanding what words mean but ig it's a pattern now

The pocket continues!

like at the start of the game you seemed like a pretty reasonable person who was interpreting things correctly and now all of a sudden you're all like "You said at least one. So you think there's exactly one? Why do you think there's exactly one??! Also, how do you know you're town?? HA! GOTEM!". what is this??? are you trying the ben shapiro approach? idk if that's a great role model

[fireisredsir]

"at least one in a group of two is town"

this means either 1 or 2 are town. conversely this means that either 0 or 1 are scum.

your response: "so you are saying one of you is definitely scum?"

that's uhhhh not right

[fireisredsir]

My point is that DV is saying it is a fact at least one of you is town. That's not true from April's perspective, so either DV is trying to bullshit, or is implying they have inside knowledge. Like I said, reading comprehension.

ignoring the part that you were objectively wrong about in order to pretend that you were right, nice, very cool.

if deas is town, it's a fact that he is town. here, I'll say it too: "it's a fact that at least one of me/VP is town". he did say April had to face that fact, so i won't die on that hill since i think it's ambiguous enough that your interpretation has some merit. but saying that he was saying one is definitely scum is just completely wrong

[fireisredsir]

Well i am replace of Fua.

Deets you should know:

Math is confirmed Mason.

There is a hood of: Nero, skitter, Cap90, VP.

There's a lot of useless posting in this game (maybe even some from me in the last few pages while I was catching up, sorry all!)

april here is the replacement info post. also VP is claimed ascetic, enchant (fua) is claimed vig who tried to shoot me last night and nothing happened

here you go, new friends

[fireisredsir]

Titus IS right that he struggles with content when scum but most players do. His 300 was pretty bad I think. Though I think he's an ez target or intentionally makes himself an ez target. Claiming VT early was sorta ass too.

He could be scum or he could just be bad town. He's not a horrible d2 lim but I still think VP is scum so...

agreed with this

We took the easy lim yesterday and it did not work. It is time to take the hard one.

and also this. i think scorp is possible scum but eh i think he tries harder to look town while scum (and usually fails at it) whereas here he's not really even trying

[fireisredsir]

enchant do you have any reads?

[fireisredsir]

how about VP cuz people keep attempting to push alternate wagons cuz he's probably maf

[fireisredsir]

i mean maybe it is malcolm with the poor reaction to his wagon, and the lady doth protest too much methinks over him and VP being mentioned as a possible team, and saying he would come back and be productive and useful or whatever in the morning but then he disappeared

[fireisredsir]

then again ig he did disappear last friday too so maybe that's just an irl schedule thing. kinda weird tho that he said multiple times "i will defend myself tomorrow!!" and then never came back

[fireisredsir]

yea except i never said that my leaving had anything to do with me thinking yours wasn't likely to happen lol. we've been over this

[fireisredsir]

timeline of events for anyone who cares:
1) i think VP is likely to be scum
2) April makes some convincing points in favor of a Malcolm wagon, and at the same time VP starts to look a little more towny
3) I join the Malcolm wagon cause sudden unexpected wagons that potentially throw scum off their plans are cool
4) i mention to April that I think they could both be scum, Malcolm and VP both are pretty upset about this suggestion
5) VP kinda flips out and starts making repeated logical and comprehension errors
6) i think hey maybe VP is one of the scum who got thrown off their plan
7) I'm back to thinking VP is most likely to be scum

[fireisredsir]

5) VP kinda flips out and starts making repeated logical and comprehension errors

Incorrect. Keep shading though.

This is all in the thread and easy to read. Don't know what you think propaganda like this achieves.

has anyone agreed with your representation of events?

[fireisredsir]

@Fire - If VPB flipped town, what would your read on Malcom be?

i think vpb town/malc scum is more likely than vpb scum/malc scum, although as i said earlier i think it's still v possible that they are partners. so vpb flipping town would increase my suspicion of malcolm (and deas, since i think in that case your narrative would make some sense. still don't think it's dragons tho). but i also think vpb scum/malc town is more likely than vpb town/malc scum, which is why I'm voting vp.

i also don't really agree that vp's reads have been stagnant. he started out the day on cape 2595, then goes even harder on cape for a while after cape's case on him, then tried out a push on frogster in 3183 that had a few followers but didn't get that far. at this point i try to get him to actually list who he thinks is scum (which takes 3 tries before he answers me) and he gives them as cape/frog/tene top tier, then skitter/yeet/eyes below that. next he tried tene in 3392, then went back to frogster when it looked more likely to work in 3502. then he shifted his reads to start attacking his attackers. he acts like nero is confscum from his pov in 3603. starts focusing on me in 3760 and after i switch to malcolm. he's now p much ignoring cape and is focused on me and frog.

that doesn't look stagnant to me. that looks like a lot of positioning himself early on to try to push in whatever the most popular wagon at the time was, and when that didn't work he decided to just go on an all-out blitz against the people attacking him

[fireisredsir]

i probs phrased that first part confusingly but basically:

1) given vpb scum, malc sus goes down slightly.
2) given vpb town, malc sus goes up slightly.
3) rn i think vpb scum is much more likely than vpb town
4) i also think vpb scum is more likely than malc scum

[fireisredsir]

a majority of the game TRs VP

a majority? April, eyes, dragons, scorpious, I think yeet... who else?

galron and enchant we know nothing about their opinions. malc was positioning weirdly around him but seemed to be leaning towards scumread. cape voted him earlier but thinks he's a little townier now, idk if that's a townread. titus hasn't given a strong read, definitely not a townread tho. idk what your read is atm. the rest are voting him. but at most that's like 6/17, def not a majority

[fireisredsir]

it wasn't a mistake at all tho, i was counting him in the 6

[fireisredsir]

Why the Baltar and Scorpious wagons?

VP reasons: 3361, 3363, 3610, 3693 (last one isnt me, but it makes good points). some other people like nero have some other reasons too

[fireisredsir]

ok paranoid thought but what if it's cape and the reason he was hard scumreading VP but then lost interest when the wagon picked up is cause he doesn't actually want the flip cause that narrows down the hood. cape/malcolm seems very compelling to me tbh

[fireisredsir]

if you mean malc before cape, then yes, cause starting a new wagon at this point is probs not a good idea. if you mean malc before you, then yes ofc we do bc in that world you are town. im not sure if it is a world i believe in or not but im thinking and rereading rn

[fireisredsir]

I won't push this too extensively, because it doesn't look like it's going to go anywhere, but why is this an inherently bad idea?

It seems like common consensus right now that a lot of us are inherently unsure about the top three potential vote-outs in the game. Why have we not spent our time, as a result of this, trying to deduce potential alternatives when we had around half a week remaining to do so? The game has slowed down - who is inherently benefiting from this and why? I just find it interesting that a lot of players seem to have stopped pushing any new potential wagons and seem content with a state of play we're agreeing is less than satisfactory. Maybe it's just the confusion with all the replace-ins, hard to tell.

i mean im not agreeing that it's less than satisfactory. i think only a couple people wish there were alternate wagons. im pretty happy with the top 3 wagons being who they are bc i think there is very likely at least 1 scum in them

[fireisredsir]

ok let's even em up then

VOTE: malcolm

[fireisredsir]

the extent to which the game feels stuck here the last few days is weird af and probably meaningful in some way but ill let the smart people figure out what that means

my instinct tho is that it means either scum is in the leading wagons and the rest of the team isn't positioned well enough or isn't active enough to push a counter/commit to a bus, or that the leading wagons are all town, and scum are apathetic about which one goes through. but on play i think the first option is the case

[fireisredsir]

ok yea i wasn't really that convinced of that being a slip, but you're right that VP's interpretation there is extremely generous to galron

[fireisredsir]

meh ill go for either VP or malc, at this point I've talked myself in circles over which is more likely, i don't know anymore

[fireisredsir]

ok yea i wasn't really that convinced of that being a slip, but you're right that VP's interpretation there is extremely generous to galron

This is what scum pocketing Math looks like btw. He would be the number one person I'd try to pocket if I was scum and I would definitely keep him alive for awhile.

do you disagree that you were extremely generous to galron

[fireisredsir]

The big scum giveaway for fire is that he hasn't had any original ideas since like D1. He is clearly very smart, and smart people take actions outside the safety of what's popular. I could write a whole case about that, but I doubt that is worth my time at this point because the wagon isn't going to flip. When I'm dead, look at that very closely.

i think my thoughts around the fua early day reaction were original. i think i was the first one to case you besides nero and he didnt really have a case, that's pretty original. i think the cape/malc idea that im currently working with is original. probs some other stuff idk im not gonna go back and look. if you mean "hasn't suspected anyone that hasn't already been suspected", then uh maybe thats cause everyone has been suspected at this point

i am blushing that you think i am very smart tho, idk if it's accurate but it's still appreciated

[fireisredsir]

right now tbh i am doubting myself immensely but legitimately cannot figure out what the maf team composition would look like if it's not in VP/malc since i have been thinking that it is for a while and have been thinking about most other players in terms of how they relate to those two slots. i know vp thinks that only maf are hesitant at the end but i know at least for me that is not at all the case, idk if I've ever voted someone out for non-mech-guilty reasons without some last minute doubts

[fireisredsir]

but legitimately cannot figure out what the maf team composition would look like if it's not in VP/malc

What about players like eyes or scorpios, galron?

eyes probably, scorp maybe but meh. galron probably. i think someone said this already, maybe froggy, that if vp/malc are both town then it's probably just enchant and we've been distracted from it all day. titus maybe. yeet maybe.

[fireisredsir]

Why are you doubting yourself immensely

Don’t you think scum is in the wagons

i did and now i am doubting that. why am i perpetually paralyzed by self-doubt and indecision? idk i can't afford a therapist ill get back to you in 5 or 6 years

[fireisredsir]

This is what I mean. You're not really pushing people that don't have other people pushing harder. It gives you cover

i think i almost always look where other people are looking, and then try to look deeper to see if i think they're right or not. that's like, what i do, it's just the main way i know how to play the game. p sure i did that on day 1 too and i will do that on day 3

[fireisredsir]

you also said based on gamestate d1 that wu had to be scum

[fireisredsir]

why

[fireisredsir]

is scum required to pocket?

[fireisredsir]

instill doubt

well if so it's working on me at least

[fireisredsir]

3603 is a big example of that imo as ive pointed out multiple times, discrediting someone by appealing to the crowd and implying they have to be scum but also not scumreading the person. still really don't like that post

[fireisredsir]

flash wagon on galron when

[fireisredsir]

only half joking

i bet we have enough

i think its kind of a bad idea to pivot so hard at the end of the day cause if he's town then we made no progress and we're probs just going to end up stuck back where we were. but... i think he isn't town

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: Galron

[fireisredsir]

im hype let's gooo

snow globes don't shake on their own

[fireisredsir]

i don't see how anything skitter posted at the start of d2 is something she wouldn't do as maf

[fireisredsir]

it's now 6 on malc, 5 on galron, and 3 on you, with nero currently on you but stating his intention to move to galron. you moving off galron onto malc isn't making it you vs malc, it's just making malc more likely to die over galron

given that, the noble sacrifice attitude falls a little flat

[fireisredsir]

at this point i plan to stay on galron. there's still more people who should be willing to vote him that haven't checked in yet

[fireisredsir]

at this point i plan to stay on galron.

You have a strong scum read on galron than me, I'm so confused.

you're gonna have to get used to me changing my mind a lot, i do apologize for that bc it probably isn't very helpful, but it happens

im now kinda most buying the world where vp and malc are both town, and that's winning out over my individual scumread on vp. in that world i think galron is maf. and at least one of april/titus probably is too. then there's another world, the one that math is pushing, where vp and galron are both maf. im not as sold on that one but it's probably like 2nd place for me. so galron > vp > malc. terribly sorry that this probably doesn't make a lot of sense but thats what you get for trying to open up my brain and look inside, it's messy in there

[fireisredsir]

It is very difficult to see a world where skitter is scum and plays the way she did d2

it is not very difficult for me, idg why it is for you

It is very difficult to see a world where Baltar is scum and decides to attempt to pocket 0 people for the sole sake of saying wifom right before he’s about to die

ehh kinda difficult ig. i think if he's maf he was confident he wasn't gonna die. but maybe that is a stretch, idk

It is difficult to see a world where April is scum and makes the push he does on Malcolm

extremely easy for me to see this world

[fireisredsir]

fire can you reevaluate that world but with Galron as town and tell me what that looks like?

like all of galron/vp/malc town? then scum are probably inactive and apathetic lol. maybe like deas eyes cape titus or something, idk

[fireisredsir]

april, what would you say the wagon on galron means? if you think it's yucky, does that mean you think galron is likely town? is scum taking action? why, and who?

and if galron flipped maf what would that tell you?

[fireisredsir]

Can anyone actually explain why Malcolm is town?

i thought his reaction to the initial wagon was real bad, but when he came back a couple days later he felt like he was trying to solve and the directions he was looking didn't seem opportunistic or faked, and most importantly i got a kinda independent vibe from him. maybe he just got a lot better at playing scum very suddenly, and i still would be fine seeing the flip, but he started to feel more town to me

[fireisredsir]

i don't even think the read fake is the scummiest thing galron has done, idk why everyone is only focused on that. probs cause it's the easiest part to say no to

[fireisredsir]

UNVOTE:

thinking

[fireisredsir]

VP do you think it's malcolm or do you just think that's the best flip rn?

[fireisredsir]

zzzzz

[fireisredsir]

Is it really worth it to soft claim an inno on Gal?

no

[fireisredsir]

And if it was one you don’t wait for less than 24 hrs

he didn't wait, he did it immediately

[fireisredsir]

@fire THERE IS NO INNO

TOWN WITH AN INNO DOESN’T POST THIS

that was day 1, holy

[fireisredsir]

yeet has been hinting it so heavily and obviously since forever that at first i thought it couldn't be real bc who would do that

[fireisredsir]

i still don't fully trust you VP fwiw bc in regards to this matter at least i think you would act the way you have if you were scum too, no?

[fireisredsir]

like maf usually notice softing first since they know alignments already. i noticed it when you first did too so im not saying you're maf for it but you still could be. personally i thought i must be wrong about it bc i didn't think he would do it in that way

[fireisredsir]

If they had an inno it would be 100%

either he didn't want to claim 100% to not out himself, or it's info that doesn't give a 100% clear but implies most likely town. or he's faking it. but he's p clearly heavily hinting at some info and the cat is way the hell out of the bag on that now

[fireisredsir]

she didn't even read the replacement info post i quoted for her ): im hurt

[fireisredsir]

probably best not to

[fireisredsir]

frog you're already on VP. he's still 4

pedit: ok now 5

[fireisredsir]

he's saying "hey April, they (galron) did this"

[fireisredsir]

why are so many people screaming this game, seems a little sus

[fireisredsir]

relaxed yet sassy with just the right amount of awkward. that's me

[fireisredsir]

you're concerningly convincing april, whenever you're here i find myself compelled to vote malcolm and whenever you aren't im like ehhhh malc looks kinda towny

[fireisredsir]

titus voting malc is the main reason i didn't vote there yet bc i don't really trust that

but i guess i was hesitantly trusting datisi so idk

[fireisredsir]

also titus wanted VP earlier so it literally doesn't matter i guess

VOTE: Malcolm

E-1

[fireisredsir]

I think this end of day phase was really good, so no matter what happens Day 3 will be tasty.

i think the galron wagon helped clarify some things so im still glad we did it, no regrets

[fireisredsir]

i forgot that masons are given a list of alignments along with their role pm, mb

[fireisredsir]

it will never work!! i am unpocketable!!! i am strongggg!!!

Spoiler:

this is 100% a lie. i am, unlike VP, very much a fool for charisma. but at least i know it

[fireisredsir]

What are the odds of you voting VP over Malcolm?

very slim at the moment but as soon as april leaves the thread the spell will be broken and i shall awake, dazed and confused

[fireisredsir]

What are the odds of you voting VP over Malcolm?

very slim at the moment but as soon as april leaves the thread the spell will be broken and i shall awake, dazed and confused

actual answer tho is that i scumread more people off the malc wagon than people on it

[fireisredsir]

cape you're a genius how did you deduce that he was so subtle about it

[fireisredsir]

ok so ive been thinking about it and i can see a world where VP is town or where VP is maf, and i can see a world where April is town or where April is maf, but i can't really see any world where titus is town

VOTE: Titus

[fireisredsir]

question I have during this time: fire, can you tell me which post specifically you figured out that Yeet was softing?

as soon as you unvoted i figured you had seen something, and i went back and noticed the *staunchly opposed* did look kinda like softing. so at that point at least i saw what you saw (and that was when i went back to check to see if it checked out, and saw that he was sus of skitter until end of day 1 and then start of day 2 it suddenly flipped). i wasn't really convinced that it was real for various reasons but i had it in the back of my mind at that point. 4602 was what changed my mind cause at that point he had basically given up being subtle at all about it

[fireisredsir]

on vp's case:

- 4525 doesn't feel like pumping up math it's just fluff responding to his mean girls gif
- disagree that scum hadn't picked up on the soft. would actually be shocked if they hadn't noticed early. i wasn't sure on it partly bc i thought yeet and galron were both scummy. maf know their alignments and so would notice much more easily.
- i can see your read of it ig but eh i don't really agree with the narrative. I think it's relying too much on the assumption that maf didn't notice until way later than i would expect them to. frog could def be scum pretending he didn't notice. nero, maybe, but i don't think he behaved that scummy here. dragons looked genuine to me.
- who do you think would be maf if the team did notice the soft early? (hint: every possible team includes titus)

[fireisredsir]

which theory and why?

[fireisredsir]

he also could have carried out the n1 kill, right? psych resolves after kills

[fireisredsir]

which theory and why?

Baltar's theory says that Titus' vote on Malcom was the turning point where my miz wasn't feasible.

yes, im disagreeing with his theory. i don't think scum were positioned the way he think they were bc i think his assumption that they didn't notice the soft is wrong

[fireisredsir]

If he was an x-shot killing role then he would have gotten "can kill" or "has already killed" Traitors aren't part of the mafia team and can't carry out the kill.

this is not that important bc like you said, not a priority, but still:

Assuming no interference, you will be informed "PLAYERNAME is capable of killing.", "PLAYERNAME is not capable of killing or has already killed.", or "You got no result from investigating PLAYERNAME." at the end of the night.

"not capable of killing or has already killed" is one option, and that's the one we can assume yeet got

[fireisredsir]

If they saw it and believed it, then that whole push is town? I'm highly skeptical of that.

not necessarily, i think one scum could have gone for the play of pretending they didn't notice it. my pick for that would probably be cape but frog is also possible

My preference is Scorpious but that I feel has sailed. It might be too late for eyes too.

Fire, what do you think of these two?

eyes p likely imo. scorp i still feel mostly meh on

[fireisredsir]

Oh Yeet is probably making obvtown moves right now. Your on the naughty list Save The Dragons for shading Yeet

like idk how to interpret this other than cape finally noticing the soft. but then later he acts like he didn't realize until the yeet flip

[fireisredsir]

wait also cape obv must have realized before the flip bc vp was talking about it in the hood

???

[fireisredsir]

random question

if fua/enchant vig claim was fake, would their maf partners likely want to bus them, knowing they'll have to at some point anyway? probably depends on the maf players ig. but i remember thinking it was a lil weird the way that datisi was insistent on pushing fua/enchant day 2 when it will just get resolved later on

[fireisredsir]

math....gal is either town or a traitor

or did the n1 kill

[fireisredsir]

traitor can't carry out the scum teams kill

bruh

that's why i said or

if he is on the maf team, not a traitor, and did the n1 kill, yeet would have gotten a neg result bc that is how psychologist works

[fireisredsir]

uhhh VP 2 of your 4 examples are just Nero saying "let's kill the scum on the malc wagon"

that proves his point not yours

[fireisredsir]

why is everyone ignoring that psychologists get negative results on people who have already killed and therefore do not necessarily imply that there is a traitor

i wouldn't be THAT surprised to see a traitor but eh

[fireisredsir]

Plus I'm sure those are not even great examples. That's just me casually looking at his ISO

they are very not great examples and you cannot say "look i proved this!" without having great examples. if you come back later with great examples then ill be more interested in what you have to say

[fireisredsir]

I hear you. So you are saying you want to still lim galron?

no lol tf

im saying that people shouldn't run crazy with the idea that there is guaranteed a traitor or that galron can only be maf if he's traitor bc neither of those things are known

[fireisredsir]

someone from the mafia team always carries out the kill, right? the person who did would then show up neg to a psychologist. i thought that was like the whole idea behind the role

wiki:

It does however have a drawback: if a player has already killed, the Psychologist can no longer discern whether this player is capable of doing so.

[fireisredsir]

Well, I'm not saying they are terrible examples either. Open his iso and look at the way he talks about Malcom if you want. It's not hard to find. I have some posts marked in NY notes, but I'm off my computer for the night. Definitely will have to be tomorrow before I go fetch that.

very excited to see your better examples!! i did look through his ISO, obviously, and your not great ones are the closest that i could find to support the narrative that you're pushing. he p consistently liked the malc wagon the least out of all the leading wagons, and consistently thought that scum were pushing it

[fireisredsir]

If scum had their pick of three wagons EoD someone woulda been hammered.

what's the logic there? if all 3 wagons are town wouldn't scum be more likely to just let them sit and let a town hammer? and alternatively if 1 or 2 of the wagons are scum wouldn't malcolm have been hammered faster?

[fireisredsir]

I am not sure if he said so last day phase or not but in the hood overnight VP was talking about how he thought Malcolm was going to town flip while vote parking that for most of the day. Your thoughts Fire?

mmm he didn't really take a stance on malc (mostly saying stuff like "ill read April's case later") until 4000, and for a while it was kinda "not my biggest scumread but it's worth taking a chance on". 4230 he votes there, and says it is a lim that will give the most info. 4432, talking to malc, he's "not very sold" on him being scum, and also says that his own lim would be better for town than malc's. he votes galron right after. re-votes malc in 4490 after the yeet soft. next spends a while seeming to be considering the world where him and malc are both town. 4686 says that malc is the best flip. that's about it.

so did he think malc was likely to flip town? yea, kinda believable, he was on the fence p much the whole time, and seemed to be leaning town slightly. did he votepark there most of the day? his vote was there for like 95% of the final 48 hours of the day, so eh kinda. is that different from how he would act if he was town in that situation? ehhh idk. imo if there's something scummy about how he interacted with malc, it's how he was acting like he was willing to die and sacrifice himself while pushing malc at the same time

[fireisredsir]

I'm not saying it was his stated preferred wagon. I don't think you're exactly getting what I'm saying here, and I'm sure that's on me. The point is him being OK with it without backing it. I'm not sure what you think I'm saying.

that's a pretty big walkback from this:

Look at him today, he is trying to shade people on the Malcom wagon, even though he spent good chunks of yesterday promoting it. It's the same exact thing he did with Wu, except somehow even mote naked this time.

he hard pushed wu most of day 1 and you're saying it's the same exact thing. now you're saying that your point was that he was ok with the wagon without backing it? nah that's not what you said. you said he was promoting and pushing and supporting it.

[fireisredsir]

nah that's not what you said. you said he was promoting and pushing and supporting it.

He was supporting it! It's called tacit support. Which is exactly what I said. I find this semantics arguments with you to be the exact thing that was driving me up the wall about you before.

You are looking to score semantics points instead of looking at scum motivations to take ACTIONS. Actions are how you catch scum. This isn't debate class. This is murder.

but im not really even saying you're scum for being wrong. im just saying you're wrong. but i mean if you insist, it actually is pretty scummy to make claims about why someone is scum when those claims are unsupported, and then when you're called out on that, to walk it back and pretend you were saying something else.

please explain how tacit support is "the same exact thing he did with Wu" and how his "iso is full of him saying Malcom is a good possible lim, until it is happening, then he wants nothing to do with it". i see the opposite. malc wagon is never his favorite, and near the end of day is when he's most vocally okay with it bc he thinks scum pushed it and he wants to catch them. so... the opposite of what you said.

[fireisredsir]

I do like your stuff about VP but you aren't out of the woods yet. You lost alot of your town cred when you supported Malcolm over VP.

it's ok tho cause we win the game off of it

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: DV

Tend/VP, let's do this.

why not eyes? he has 2 votes already and he was one of your top scumreads, right?

[fireisredsir]

VP you're feeling kinda slimy here tbh i don't think you belong in the townbloc

[fireisredsir]

ok you want to talk scummy actions? i think scum you would have two main goals at the start of today:
1) work your way into the townbloc
2) break up any attempts at legitimate townblocing

and in a world where you are scum, knowing you're getting a TR from April, you know who the absolute best targets are to try to drive a wedge in town and sow distrust? frog and nero. like those are the exact two people you would try to push away and position yourself on the side of me and April. and that's what you did, and immediately appealed to me directly to get my thoughts on it. and then when i was unenthused you dropped that and started pushing elsewhere. and you even tried to pull Titus into the townbloc with you?? like, are you really this sloppy?

[fireisredsir]

APRIL COME BACK I DON'T TRUST THIS MAN AND I NEED AN ADULT

[fireisredsir]

Like Math's current proposition is that Nero VP and Galron are scum together? They outed their scum PT as a hood D1 and that the result on Galron is irrelevant and Nero and VP came out swinging at each other despite hard winning?

no, that is not his proposition. he thinks it's titus/VP/galron/April

[fireisredsir]

he is saying that voting in the hood is correct play today. i don't think he said anywhere that there were 3 scum in the hood. he thinks there's 2

[fireisredsir]

Math was pretty clearly rage voting me. I'm still open to considering his pool, and maybe I misunderstood it because he was frustrating me so bad because of how frustrated he was muddling his message. He's clearly laser focused on his hood.

Do you think we should lim there, lim outside or do you feel strongly in your own pool? I think you're voting me but I don't get why. What is your eyes read?

no he was not rage voting you, he's thought your slot was maf since he entered the game basically. your interpretation is wrong.

voting in the hood makes sense ig. im fine with that, i think. eyes is someone i had on a lot of potential scumteams but im slightly reconsidering that, idk

[fireisredsir]

like maybe ive just been blind to nero this whole time? it's a possibility ig but on rereading i don't really see it

[fireisredsir]

Why are you?

cause every scumteam i can think of has you on it

[fireisredsir]

is no one else concerned about april at all?

a little bit but im ok with worrying about it later

[fireisredsir]

is no one else concerned about april at all?

a little bit but im ok with worrying about it later

to expand on this: i think scum April only takes a step back today to let others lead if someone else on their scumteam is positioned to do the leading today. so we can just get that person instead

[fireisredsir]

Why are you?

cause every scumteam i can think of has you on it

Why? Please be direct. You've been stating every scumteam has me on it. That doesn't say why you feel I am scum or why eyes is clear.

i don't have time to wallpost rn, maybe later, but it's mostly about the way you were positioning yourself yesterday. and i think you played up the ignorance of gamestate a little too much. also datisi had a few things that i felt were pretty... off, even tho i was charmed into townreading him as i KNEW would happen

[fireisredsir]

The likely reason people aren't joining on your theory of me being ignorant of the state d1 is that is because it is who I am. I don't read and I don't know unless I am scum.

to be more specific i think there are things that you acted as if you didn't know when you actually did, because you know that's your playstyle. it wasn't that you were ignorant of the gamestate, it was that the way you played it up and leaned on it felt fake

[fireisredsir]

vp keeps trying to claim town cred for things that he should know he does not at all deserve town cred for and idk why he would do that as town

[fireisredsir]

if I were scum, I'd open FoSing those who had correct reads

you said this earlier, can you explain why?

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: VP

[fireisredsir]

vp keeps trying to claim town cred for things that he should know he does not at all deserve town cred for and idk why he would do that as town

What are these things?

1) you noticing yeet's soft, drawing attention to it, and pushing people away from galron. it's playing the good townie in the same way that maf would, nothing about that is town indicative at all, and yet you have said a few times that it is evidence that you're town. the fact that you gave me town cred for backing off galron is also kinda sus tbh bc you should know better as town
2) you buddying up to yeet, him TRing you, and his death. none of those things make you more likely town
3) HEM's death. that was happening no matter what and he wasn't even TRing you according to math
4) acting like you're willing and planning to die and sacrifice yourself for the good of the town even when that isn't the trajectory of things

[fireisredsir]

The crowd pushing me is not the town bloc.

me/math/tene is pretty townbloc imo. that's 3 of the 4 votes on you

[fireisredsir]

1) You might disagree with how VP did handle the soft, which is fair. However, VP tried in a manner that got the soft out without Yeet claiming it. This left some doubt and made the scum kill more informative and saved a town from an elimination. Maybe VP could have claimed it for himself as a gambit, but other than that, I can't see what VP could have done differently.
2) Fair.
3) I'd like this sourced.
4) It is the trajectory with recent VP votes. Self sacrifice is null though.

1) im not saying he's scum for it or that he should have handled it differently (altho imo some of it looked p calculated and not a genuine town reaction). im saying that he doesn't deserve any towncred for it bc he would do the same as scum. and him acting like he does deserve towncred for it is scummy.
3) 5198
4) im talking about earlier mostly, in d2. he did it even when galron/malc were lead wagons. today he's saying that he thinks his lim is bad for town

[fireisredsir]

Reading the game state correctly is +town.

why? scum has a better read of the gamestate than town like 95% of the time

[fireisredsir]

cause they think they can come out of it looking townier this way, and a town malcolm kill is just as good. the people pushing galron even after yeet makes it obvious he's softing are always gonna be easy pushes if town isn't thinking critically about things

[fireisredsir]

oooo bold, i like it

[fireisredsir]

to bus or not to bus, it a hard q isn't it?

i think bussing was the play but maybe she thinks that it was so clearly the play that people will TR her for not doing it

or she's just cocky and thinks her and VP can argue their way out of it

[fireisredsir]

But extreme reluctance to vote and hard defense of scum on a likely largely driven town wagon would make me look bad.

yes it will. that's why i called it bold, i respect it tbh

[fireisredsir]

But extreme reluctance to vote and hard defense of scum on a likely largely driven town wagon would make me look bad.

yes it will. that's why i called it bold, i respect it tbh

This is the oddest suspicion in ages. It reminds me of the old fear Titus scum that both alignments used but you've never played with me during that era unless you're an alt.

its not a suspicion of you. my suspicion is unrelated to this. i was just having fun with nero commenting about what you're doing

[fireisredsir]

i always have fun!!

[fireisredsir]

i always have fun!!

If you suppose VP and I are town, what does your world look like?

uhhh ig then like cape/deas, maybe nero or april? eyes? enchant? but deas/frog/eyes are kinda afk rn and it feels like scum has been more involved in the day so far than that

[fireisredsir]

Why vote me if you want to work with VP and he's voting eyes?

VP was voting eyes to sheep me. I am deciding I should be second fiddle because I want to see reactions to you versus VP. If I'm right, we have plenty of time to call it off. If I'm wrong, then your reactions and the reactions of others would show that.

I want the fight between you and VP to get Math off this hood thing but still respect it enough to get documentation or reset if wrong.

You versus VP is great for the collective for now, even if neither of you get eliminated.

My VP vote was not based on his play but based on in thread events and prior wagons. Now that I'm invested, I'm voting on play.

hmmmmmmmmmm

[fireisredsir]

vp brought more attention to the yeet soft than nero did, so he prob shouldn't be using that as a scum reason. he just did it in a way that was dressed up to look towny, while nero was just more blunt about it after it was already obvious

[fireisredsir]

vp brought more attention to the yeet soft than nero

Jesus fucking christ, you do not believe this do you?

I unvoted and pushed elsewhere. Nero literally says "yeet doesn't have an inno!"

How is what you're saying remotely true?

4585, 4617, 4625, 4643 all draw attention. what's the town motivation for posting those, unless you just believe the mafia team is completely incompetent? if you're town, maf 1000% notice those posts, and 10000% know about the soft because of them if they didn't already. all of those posts just look like dropping ""subtle"" hints to indicate you noticed bc you want to be sure it's on record. idk why town wouldn't be more careful. i noticed and said nothing bc i didn't want to tip anyone off and because i wasn't sure. you said things bc you didn't care about tipping anyone off and because you were sure bc you knew alignments already.

by the time nero said anything it was already p much out in the open

[fireisredsir]

What was Yeet or myself supposed to do there? Let math power through the galron wagon?

you literally said in one of the posts i linked that you thought that was the better option. you can't have it both ways

[fireisredsir]

Why Cape? Does it not bother anyone that I am the only person tring vp?

he didn't get limmed d2 cause too many people were TRing him. you're also not the only one, eyes and april still are as far as i know, and so is cape