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Large Normal 238 | Weiqi, Baduk, Go | Endgame
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- Mizzytastic
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Large Normal 238 | Weiqi, Baduk, Go | Endgame
Mafia Large Normal 238 | Weiqi, Baduk, Go
A game of hidden roles and social deduction.
Modded byMizzytastic. Backup modded bythe worst. Reviewed for balance and normalcy byIsisandimplosion.
I will be using the flavour in this game to introduce you to the game of Go, one of my favourite hobbies. Known as Weiqi in China or Baduk in Korea it is believed to be the oldest game to have been continuously played. The goal of the game is to surround more of the board than your opponent with your stones, while having to balance not letting your pieces get surrounded and captured.
Spoiler: Alive at endgame
Spoiler: Dead
Spoiler: Replacements
Spoiler: Spectators
Last edited by Mizzytastic on Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:03 pm, edited 94 times in total.Get to know a Mizzy
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Feedback on rules/format at any point during the game via PM will be appreciated. Evolution of my rules/formatting has been inspired by Korina and Plotinus, and feedback from xofelf.
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Last edited by Mizzytastic on Mon Feb 28, 2022 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.Get to know a Mizzy
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Night 0 Checklist
Pregame setup
Sending out role PMs
Confirmations<-- You are here
Role PMs have been sent. The game will start when(15/19)players have confirmed. Players have until (expired on 2022-03-02 17:30:00) to confirm before I start looking for replacements.
(18/19) ConfirmationsLast edited by Mizzytastic on Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.Get to know a Mizzy
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The game has encountered a short delay I expect be resolved in the next 24 hours. There have been enough confirmations for the game to start once it has been resolved.
Eyes without a faceandGeneralWuhave (expired on 2022-03-02 17:30:00) to confirm before I start seeking replacements.Get to know a Mizzy
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Day 1 | Game Begins
Go is a game played by two players, one with black stones and one with white. Black goes first. Each turn you place a stone on the intersection of a board. The typical board is 19x19 intersections, though historically there is evidence of 17x17 boards instead. There are also smaller boards at 9x9 and 13x13 which are often used when teaching beginners but also provide a shorter experience with different pressures to all players.
All players have confirmed.maozedongis replacing in with the accountYeetbut it is the same player.Get to know a Mizzy
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Go is often said to have three rules, of which the first is capturing stones. The four intersections connecting to a stone are it's liberties. If your opponent surrounds all the liberties of a stone it is captured. A stone with only one liberty left is inatari, which is where the game company get it's name from,
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Stones connected horizontally and vertically form groups. To capture a group all the liberties of all the stones need to be taken.
There was an error in this vote count whereYeetwas listed as votingskitter30. It was fixed as of post 498Last edited by Mizzytastic on Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.Get to know a Mizzy
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The second rule of go is the suicide rule. You cannot play in a position that reduces the liberties of one of your groups to zero, resulting in it being captured.
Last edited by Mizzytastic on Wed Mar 02, 2022 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.Get to know a Mizzy
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In post 490, Yeet wrote:In post 179, Yeet wrote:
It’s a mindset slip. I’m not saying she’s projecting that we know you.In post 169, Datisi wrote:
mostly that your case was nothing because she did not say she townread me and the "you are projecting that we know datisi therefore you are scum!?!?" was a huge stretchIn post 165, Yeet wrote:
skitter has spoken so I would like to hear what your T h o u g h t s were hereIn post 120, Datisi wrote:i have Thoughts but i should probably let skitt speak first before saying anything
But I’m not that interested in my old case anymore. If she insists that her common phrasing means something other than what I think it would more commonly mean, I will drop it for now because I don’t think she would lie about that as scum.
Which means, my vote goes back to youVote: Datisi@Mizzy, I am voting for Datisi.I'll just go fix it. Could you use vote tags instead of bold tags in future, it makes it easier for me to spot when skimming the thread.Get to know a Mizzy
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It isn't suicide to play a stone that captures your opponents stones, even if it has no liberties before the capture removes those stones.
Last edited by Mizzytastic on Wed Mar 02, 2022 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.Get to know a Mizzy
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The third rule of go iskowhich prevents situations where a player immediately returns the board back to the previous position. In the image below if you have just played one of the red marked stones your opponent could not immediately capture back.
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In post 986, Nordom wrote:
If those particular sentences managed to offend anybody, then I think that person needs to grow a thicker skin.In post 981, tenebrousluminary wrote:In post 964, Nordom wrote:Malcom, I think you're getting too over-excited in the pants from Datisi's lazy town read on you. You gotta dig deeper.
These posts are not appropriate. Please stop.In post 965, Nordom wrote:Unless you're maf butt-buddies together then fmlPlease could you refrain from this. The tone of those messages was unnecessary, and doubling down when someone expresses discomfort is not on.Get to know a Mizzy
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I have askedNodromto stop posting until I have been able to talk to the listmod.Get to know a Mizzy
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I mean I was just consulting with the list mod at this point but...
Nodromis being replaced.Get to know a Mizzy
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There are rare situations such as the triple ko bellow that the normal ko rule cannot resolve. Many modern rule sets havesuperkorules that seek to resolve this by disallowing moves that return the board to any previous state but the details of those aren't important the vast majority of the time.
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Scoring in go is quite a big subject. There are two different ways of doing it and the easiest way to explain it in person is often showing. One of the skills for in person scoring is reshaping groups so make easy to count territories without changing the size of the territory from the game.
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MathBladeis replacingNordom. Please welcome him.Get to know a Mizzy
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So how do we reach scoring? A game of go ends when both players pass, agreeing that there is nothing more they can do. Then they look to see if they agree on which stones on the board are alive or would inevitably be captured, and if they disagree they start playing again until they agree, and pass again.
Last edited by Mizzytastic on Thu Mar 03, 2022 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.Get to know a Mizzy
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Lets start scoring the game I shared a picture of previously. First we remove captures. The stones I have marked are ones that would be captured. How we deal with them will differ based on if we use area or territory counting...
I am going to be low access for until the 13th. I am still going to be checking multiple times a day but mod actions and vote counts will be when I am free and not waiting to hit the top of a page or whatever. the worst will be handling more of the the votes overnight, unless I decide to try phone posting.Get to know a Mizzy
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Once prisoners are removed, the next job is to count the spaces that make up your territory. In area counting the prisoners are discarded but in territory counting they count against your final total (or with your opponents total).
Last edited by Mizzytastic on Fri Mar 04, 2022 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.Get to know a Mizzy
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I'm getting quite sleepy so I'll leave you with this. For reference atesujiis the Japanese term for a clever, often non trivial move, and Cho Chikun (the player on the left) is one of the greatest players of his generation with a reputation of being a bit of a mad scientist character.
Last edited by Mizzytastic on Fri Mar 04, 2022 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.Get to know a Mizzy
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April Ludgatehas replacedAristeia. Please welcome them.Get to know a Mizzy
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Counting up the territory white has 58 points and black has 90 points. Next if you were using territory counting you'd add the prisoners each player has to these totals. Assuming no prisoners were captured earlier in the game that would give white 74 points and black 92 points.
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The last step iskomi, the bonus points awarded to white for making black go first. In most rules it is either 6.5 or 7.5, with the .5 being to avoid draws. Following Japanese rules, which uses territory counting and 6.5 komi that would be black winning by +11.5.
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humaneatingmonkeyhas been found dead. The monkey was aTown Mason
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Day 2
This day's flavour will be focused on life and death, that is how to make groups that cannot be captured even if they are surrounded and how to capture groups in a way that stops them protecting themselves.
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The core of life is having two eyes. As a player cannot play in both eyes simultaneously, and only playing in one eye is prohibited as a suicidal move, it means the group can never be captured.
Fuais being replaced.Last edited by Mizzytastic on Tue Mar 08, 2022 2:33 am, edited 2 times in total.Get to know a Mizzy
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Eye spaces of one or two points can never make two eyes. Eye spaces with three can, but the opponent can also play at the vital point to break it.
Enchantis replacingfua.Last edited by Mizzytastic on Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:57 am, edited 3 times in total.Get to know a Mizzy
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Sorry, I put it into the VC I was already prepping near the top of the page.Enchanthas indeed replacedfua.Get to know a Mizzy
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I'm heading to bed and don't have time to put much flavour together so some homework for the reader - what 4 space shapes do you think can be killed? Answers when I wake up
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and...Get to know a Mizzy
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The two shapes that can be killed are a square and a t-junction. The t-junction has one vital point that stops two eyes, and wherever you play inside a square it just turns into a bent three.
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skitter30is being replaced.Get to know a Mizzy
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These two shapes are unconditionally alive. They both have two places you can play inside to create two eyes so if your opponent takes one you can take the other.
Last edited by Mizzytastic on Wed Mar 09, 2022 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.Get to know a Mizzy
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The bent four is a special shape. Normally it works like the previous two where you can never kill it because there are two spaces inside to make an eye. However...
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If the bent four is in the corner it actually ends up being a ko if the opponent plays there first and there aren't too many outside liberties.. In theory it's possible to keep this ko going until there is nothing big enough to respond to, so in this situation the corne is considered dead
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Datisiis being replaced.Get to know a Mizzy
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There are two five point eyespaces that can be killed. You can play in the middle of a cross to kill it. The other known as a bulky five, you play on the red spot marked and then if your opponent plays a you play b or vice versa.
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Galronhas replacedskitter30andTitushas replacedDatisi.Get to know a Mizzy
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No flavour. Mizzy is bizzy!
I'm limited to phone posting for the next 36 hours or so and the worst is busy for some of that time period too. I'll do what I can to keep the thread up to date.Get to know a Mizzy
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I am back and have no planned low access of this scale in the near future.Get to know a Mizzy
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There is only one dead eyeshape with six points, often known as the rabbity six because it looks like it has bunny ears.
Last edited by Mizzytastic on Sun Mar 13, 2022 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.Get to know a Mizzy
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The reduction in liberties mean that corners and sides often have different results than stuff in the middle of the board. A rectangular six is normally alive but in the corner a shortage of liberties means the player can't do what would normally save the group.
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When is an eye not an eye? When it's false! Sometimes a shape can have what looks like two eyes but once all the outside liberties are taken one of the eyes is capturable.
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Frogsterkinghas been prodded.Get to know a Mizzy
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Much like chess, people do go problems to help improve their reading and learn about tricky situations. A common form of go problem aretsumegowhich are to do with the life and death of groups. Here is an example.
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I fatfingered. VC here https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13294195Get to know a Mizzy
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This is a problem from theIgo Hatsuyoron, a traditional collection of very hard go problems. We are still unsure if we have found the solution. It is considered the hardest go problem.
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Sometimes you end up in a situation where neither player can kill off the other's stones. This is known as asekiand the spaces involved do not give points for either player.
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Alive, dead, seki, or ko are the four results a group can usually end up having. I'll be going more into the strategy of ko in the future, but for now here is the Carpenter's Square, a very complex corner that often ends up in a ko. It has been suggested that if you fully understand this corner you are at professional strength.
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MalcolmTucker,Vanilla Townie, has been eliminated.
Night 2
Night 2 has begun. It will end in (expired on 2022-03-17 18:35:00). You have until then to submit any night actions you want to take.
If all living players pm me asking for a fast night I will resolve the night as soon as possible.
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Night resolution will be delayed tomorrow as I am busy for a few hours Thursday evening (going to my go club actually!).Get to know a Mizzy
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Yeethas been found dead. He was aTown 3-Shot Psychologist
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Day 3
Day 3 was delayed by my go club so you get to see a photo of a game I played. Now I have covered the rules and life and death I'm gonna be moving onto more varied topics, some strategy, some history and culture, and even some stuff I think just has cool names.
I was black and I ended up winning by 3.5 points.
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One thing I said I'd talk about is the strategy of ko. The rules purpose was to avoid infinite loops, but to get to take a ko back you need to find moves that threaten a bigger point swing then whatever losing the ko is worth.
In this simplified example white threatens capturing the three stones to force black to respond, letting white take the ko back.
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Aaaand...Get to know a Mizzy
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Sometimes a ko is onesided. One player doesn't lose much if they lose but wins big if they win or vice versa. This is called a picnic ko or flower ko. Here white could choose to just live by playing 4 after black 1, but instead created a ko for the whole group, instead of just accepting the smaller reduction. Black doesn't lose much if he loses the ko, but white loses everything if they do.
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In this example there are two kos, which mean the black group cannot die. If white takes one ko to atari the group, black takes the other. Ultimately the black group is alive and can eventually capture white at the top. However white taking either ko is a big ko threat if any other kos break out.
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