Dogs Vs. Cats Mafia | Endgame

[Something_Smart]

Present and accounted for.

I'm not reading the whole game, if anyone has suggestions for relevant parts to look at that would be appreciated.

[Something_Smart]

lol @ telling me to look at beeboy's ISO.

[Something_Smart]

Titus's claim seems likely true, and reasonably likely town though not necessarily so.

[Something_Smart]

I don't see why you'd make up the existence of an alien out of nowhere. So I mean it could be coming from scum who knows there's an alien, but then you'd have to make up results too and possibly be wrong.

[Something_Smart]

Hi Fark! Ty for the summary.

Do we know both scumteams are size 3?

[Something_Smart]

And whoever is Emily needs to quote that slip.

[Something_Smart]

Farkran's ISO is very informative imo, @SS. or i'm biased because there's important info there bolded that i completely missed until i went to look at why he scumreads Brave.

Not a fan of the ISO reads for catching up, but I can take a look.

[Something_Smart]

you're scum aren't you

Lmao is this some kind of reflex you have or what

[Something_Smart]

despite my dream I think Titus is still best lim here for info

X

[Something_Smart]

Why not?

Because her flip gives zero useful information regardless of what it is?

[Something_Smart]

Why?

I... think the burden of proof is on the person claiming the information is useful.

There may be interactions in the past I'm not aware of, but that doesn't seem to be why people want to flip Titus.

Her role being true doesn't confirm the existence of an alien. It being false doesn't disprove it. Even if we knew there was an alien, we wouldn't know what that means, and if it's an SK we would be hunting the SK exactly the same. Clearing two people from being one particular variant of SK doesn't help us because we may kill them on suspicion of being scum anyway.

[Something_Smart]

????? We don't even know if there are aliens right now

And we still won't even if she flips alien cop

[Something_Smart]

I mean, that isn't true, but of course I don't think that flipping Titus provides literally no information; just, it doesn't provide any beyond the normal amount of information you'd get from a random execution.

[Something_Smart]

you really think shea would lolput in alien cop?

I mean he made a point to lament how predictable most games are (it's certainly possible to design a normal or normal-adjacent game that's not predictable, but I see where he's coming from), so yeah.

[Something_Smart]

you can make a game predictable and not that fucking insanity

It doesn't feel that insane to me to have a decoy cop. Like having a miller without a cop, as Chara said, or a backup without the original role.

[Something_Smart]

That doesn't make any sense

[Something_Smart]

you don't forget a genuine scumread

I have.

[Something_Smart]

you're probably bussing LOL

or just hunting another team?

[Something_Smart]

I don't like the way your jumping around at all. In fact its coming off very scummy

What's scummy about it?

[Something_Smart]

What makes you think there isn't any sort of logic? Just because she hasn't shared the reason for her vote doesn't mean there isn't one.

[Something_Smart]

Titus flip would be informative due to D1 wagons

Go on?

[Something_Smart]

I think Fark is probably better than that?

[Something_Smart]

I mean I don't agree with the latter.

And calling Fark's actions "scummy" is begging the question, of course.

[Something_Smart]

I'm saying that you saying you are a snake is you crumbing traitor to your cat scum buddies.

because snakes r treacherous animals by nature.

What

[Something_Smart]

This push from pooky is clearly scum-motivated tbh

This seems also wrong, how can you be sure of this

[Something_Smart]

Because the case on me is not real and he's using made up evidence?

Why is it made-up rather than misinterpreted?

[Something_Smart]

i really thought Ivyeo is scum but now SS is in that slot and I always feel weird SRing SS because I've misread him so many times before

I mean, if your read isn't based on me, then you shouldn't feel bad continuing it.

Can I get a tl;dr on why you didn't like Ivy?

[Something_Smart]

I feel like your the 3rd person to say this

Who were the first two?

[Something_Smart]

Who's SS?

o/

I replaced Ivy.

[Something_Smart]

I am rikki tikki tavi

Why does Rikki Tikki Tavi stop dogs?

[Something_Smart]

It does seem like a doctor, but I don't understand why it would only protect against dogs.

[Something_Smart]

i don't believe farkran is a snake

i believe he flavor crumbed a snake to signal to his cat friends

then he randomly googled for a cartoon snake and ended up with rikki tikki - a character that isn't even a snake.

There is a simpler explanation than this.

[Something_Smart]

Fark, why does your role PM have a picture of a snake if your character is the mongoose? Did TSQ get it wrong?

[Something_Smart]

The mongoose is also there but i assumed i was the snake because it takes more screen space in my picture

This is the aforementioned simpler explanation.

Also, mongooses are biologically more closely related to cats than to dogs.

[Something_Smart]

cuz it totally makes sense for a Mafia Traitor Doctor to be protecting his teammates from Doggie kills

you think kdowns is also cat mafia?

[Something_Smart]

I just don't really see Fark being cat traitor. I mean surely he's painting a big target on his back for the dogs by true claiming if he is?

And I mean even aside from that it makes sense that kdowns would be the dog mafia target.

[Something_Smart]

TSQ seems like a better mod than to totally mix up animal names like this?

Like what?

[Something_Smart]

I think flow trap is town fwiw

[Something_Smart]

But he's not a snake? He just thought he was.

[Something_Smart]

was Fark just confused by the picture then?

Yeah.

[Something_Smart]

Hey, can anyone not voting pooky highlight scum on the wagon (aside from me for those who scumread me)?

Is there a reason xof and Murdercat can't be scum?

[Something_Smart]

It doesn't even matter. Fark is surely going to die at night.

[Something_Smart]

Titus wagon feels bad

Nothing really feels good though, and I'm extremely out of touch with the game so I won't fight it. Just noting my objection.

[Something_Smart]

Dog team has to be bigger than cat team at this rate.

Also Titus was town, what a shock.

[Something_Smart]

Happy birthday STD.

What's MMQB?

[Something_Smart]

Is it like, acting like you were right all along after the fact?

Because I spoke out against her wagon on multiple occasions.

[Something_Smart]

Iirc you appeared to not want it bcs it didn't give any information

I said Titus's claim was almost certainly real and fairly likely town, and then Cakez was like "but muh information", and I was like "what information"?

Well Cakez, you got your information. What are you gonna do with it?

[Something_Smart]

maybe the alien is an SK

Probably.

Feels kinda rough to have an ungated SK cop though.

[Something_Smart]

But why though

Why did I think Titus was town? Idk, alien cop is a weird role to give to scum (who probably can't kill it anyway), and she might not have even true claimed as scum.

[Something_Smart]

only the alien SK could've known Titus was for reals

I didn't have any prior knowledge of aliens. I'm just good at judging claims.

[Something_Smart]

Well she also wouldn't fakeclaim alien cop because if her team is informed of aliens then she risks giving a wrong result and if it isn't then how do you even think of alien cop as a fakeclaim

[Something_Smart]

Funny that we're having this conversation NOW when nobody cares what I thought about Titus while she was alive.

[Something_Smart]

Are you actually Batman Pooky? or is this some reference I'm missing?

Pooky just has a Batman complex

[Something_Smart]

We actually know there is a SK now

Wouldn't we have known that anyway with the 3 kills?

[Something_Smart]

I meant Dog Traitor Cop :I

Traitors generally know their partners. They would not have to search for them.

And if kdowns is an uninformed dog traitor dog cop and he found a dog, claiming a guilty on them is the stupidest thing he could do and it would get them both killed.

If anything, he is a Dog Rolecop who saw the chance to get a free miller exe. But that's still unlikely.

[Something_Smart]

V/LA until Monday

[Something_Smart]

I had an early tr but both he and S_S are barely present maybe its stale.

I was V/LA. Back now.

[Something_Smart]

he would be playing as town

Citation needed? I'm lurky as town sometimes, especially as a late replacement.

[Something_Smart]

And my sitewide activity was pretty low last week.

[Something_Smart]

This game - 59 posts in 8 days (7.4 per day if you ignore my V/LA)
Fakeclaim Mafia - 88 posts in 15 days (Replaced in as town, 5.7 per day)
Smoke-Filled Antechamber - 111 posts in 14 days (From start as town mason, 7.9 per day)
PYP X/Y - 183 posts in 24 days (From start as town, 7.6 per day)

My activity comes in fits and starts in all games. In Fakeclaim Mafia I basically completely lurked out the last day.

[Something_Smart]

we just need to have them so high up on the TR list that they shoot each other

yeah I mean this is how multiball works

game tends to stagnate when town realizes how little agency they have compared to scum

[Something_Smart]

There aren't enough scum for all the passive players to be scum.

Plus I'm one of them.

[Something_Smart]

I mean there surely aren't, like, eight scum alive...

[Something_Smart]

How would that even be scummy, it's not like scum know how many scum there are either

[Something_Smart]

I mean yes

that's not

necessarily

a scum pooky thing, but it could be

[Something_Smart]

I think it's most likely 3 cats and 4 dogs and even if it were 4/4 my statement would still be true.

[Something_Smart]

She didn't say that I TMI'd

all

the passive players town. I never claimed that my post explained 100% of the passivity in the game. My implicit claim was that some people were being passive for the reason I described; this isn't a TMI as long as I can demonstrate that some passive players are town.

[Something_Smart]

I have a power role. I am not allowed to claim what it is before I use it; however, it may be used during the day.

I would like Toadette to tell me whether she has access to any private topics. It would probably be helpful for other scummy players such as Psyche to do this as well, in case she can't/won't.

[Something_Smart]

Up to you, I guess.

Toadette/Psyche are the ones I want most.

[Something_Smart]

Why wouldn't Chara just claim that then?

[Something_Smart]

Okay. Heard back from the mod. Psyche does not have PT access, and they were checked not alien by Titus, so they are either a traitor or town.

I'm a one-shot lie detector, but the statement I lie detect can't be about role or alignment, and if I claimed the ability before I used it I would have lost it.

[Something_Smart]

Judy Hopps, the cop from Zootopia.

[Something_Smart]

oh what a relief

Sorry if you did not want to be conftown, but I couldn't exactly ask :/

At the very least I took care of a slot that was almost certainly going to be a perpetual question mark. That's why I picked you over Toadette; she has more of a chance to towntell because she's been in the game longer.

[Something_Smart]

Go for it. I'm functionally a VT now.

[Something_Smart]

How could they even do that, there are like three separate teams that don't know each other

[Something_Smart]

I will be available before deadline to hammer anything, by the way.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Anya

[Something_Smart]

The whole game? It's multiball.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Raya

[Something_Smart]

Biggest wagon, most likely to get us to night fast so we can let scum decide the game

[Something_Smart]

Biggest wagon, most likely to get us to night fast so we can let scum decide the game

Can we please lynch this

Vote:S_S

Just NK me instead

[Something_Smart]

Actually maybe that's fine because it's probably actively bad for us to execute cat mafia here

[Something_Smart]

how would you expect a town lie detector to respond after being called out as scum the day after he cleared a townie who was about to be executed

[Something_Smart]

It's not defeatism. It's helplessness. Very different.

[Something_Smart]

We have equal amount of flips from both teams

I'm assuming that dog mafia is bigger because cat mafia got a PR and there are way more flipped anti-dog roles than anti-cat roles.

So my guess is 2 dogs and 1 cat left

[Something_Smart]

I think S_S has like townslipped because he think it is 7v2v2

Where did I say that? I think it's 7v2v1v1.

[Something_Smart]

Kinda wild that I would have been better off not using my power and letting myself get executed.

If I had gotten a guilty on Psyche I was definitely debating lying and saying it was an innocent so they got shot.

[Something_Smart]

yeah I mean, I wasn't actually going to do that. but I thought about it

[Something_Smart]

I had a dream that Toadette skated by to LyLo and was scum

Implying that we'll ever get to lylo with 3 scum factions alive

[Something_Smart]

If you're town, please stop trying to convince people that I'm town

[Something_Smart]

Oh I see what you mean. No I don't think it's a townslip, scum cakez can still dream that.

I don't think it's to my advantage to out my read on you.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Toadette

[Something_Smart]

I don't want to claim please don't make me claim

If you're town you claiming was probably objectively good for town

[Something_Smart]

Scum are less likely to shoot her (because she can't be a PR) and more likely to shoot other scum

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Raya

[Something_Smart]

Your wagon is bigger and the deadline is close.

[Something_Smart]

I'm extremely uninvested in this game given how little agency town has. In particular I'm pissed that using my PR was directly anti-town. So it's not especially deadline convenience, but more just convenience in general. Between you and Toadette, I think she's less likely to be NK'd since she's a VT claim and the claim is at least semi-credible.

If you want to make a case for xofelf and get people to follow, I may well join.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Toadette

[Something_Smart]

With you it's hammer I think Shiro.

[Something_Smart]

...it's multiball. exeing town is probably better than exeing scum here.

[Something_Smart]

Alien + dog probably

And it looks like the alien can only kill on odd nights

[Something_Smart]

I think this means I have to start trying now, sadly.

[Something_Smart]

Lmao town is dominating this game with 1/5 scum elims
What the fuck

m u l t i b a l l

[Something_Smart]

Prolly massclaim time?

Nah. I'm pretty sure there's a dog left. How is 3 dog goons vs 2 cat goons + a cat dog-cop vs a town dog-cop and a town dog-doc remotely fair to the dogs?

[Something_Smart]

Well now that you've said that, you probably should. And yeah I think it's likely that we are out of cat mafia.

[Something_Smart]

You protected only town so it seems like a pretty good job to me. In multiball that's more important than guessing the kill correctly.

[Something_Smart]

Though I do think Psyche was a really obvious cat kill the night they died. Obviously the dogs were going for kdowns.

[Something_Smart]

...you didn't want to protect the person I had just cleared because you didn't trust them?

[Something_Smart]

I claim viper cat doc

Actions?

[Something_Smart]

This counter claim feels fake

I mean it's a gamethrow unless BHL has a living teammate so like

I disagree

[Something_Smart]

Not necessarily. One miselim could be enough to get scum to a dominant position.

"scum" is not one entity, maybe a mis-exe gets town to a bad position but outed-scum BHL is probably not winning that.

So you think Xof is lying?

not necessarily because tsq by his own admission likes to make things not make sense, but I think BHL is telling the truth.

[Something_Smart]

Are we to assume that the alien is the only scum left?

If so, then I guess BHL has to be town.

[Something_Smart]

So like there are 2 aliens? or what

[Something_Smart]

That just feels cruel and unusual.

[Something_Smart]

That's cruel, but not unusual.

[Something_Smart]

Oh yeah, I'm dumb. I totally figured out that you were the mason and then completely forgot about it.

[Something_Smart]

As soon as Shiro flipped I looked through his ISO and it was pretty obvious.

[Something_Smart]

Raya's claim still feels most sketchy to me

[Something_Smart]

Aren't there multiple flipped rabbits? And I'm also a rabbit.

[Something_Smart]

Toadette, obviously. And Nero looks like one as well.

[Something_Smart]

VOTE: Raya I guess. Claiming BP is just a great way to not get cross killed in multiball.

[Something_Smart]

What doesn't make sense?

[Something_Smart]

I mean there were still 3 scum factions alive when she claimed...

[Something_Smart]

Why does weird claim = sus? You think I just make up a post restriction in a game that otherwise doesn't have them for shits and giggles?

[Something_Smart]

Who said anything about a post restriction?

Me...?

[Something_Smart]

I have a power role.

I am not allowed to claim what it is before I use it

; however, it may be used during the day.

I would like Toadette to tell me whether she has access to any private topics. It would probably be helpful for other scummy players such as Psyche to do this as well, in case she can't/won't.

Okay. Heard back from the mod. Psyche does not have PT access, and they were checked not alien by Titus, so they are either a traitor or town.

I'm a one-shot lie detector, but the statement I lie detect can't be about role or alignment, and

if I claimed the ability before I used it I would have lost it

.

[Something_Smart]

That said, there was a level of apathy in this game that I don't think I've encountered before in any games I've modded (including multiball) I don't think town tried very hard, and I think that they had a defeatist attitude of "oh, well, theres lots of scum and we don't have agency" which they used as an excuse and honestly I found that extremely disappointing.

It wasn't an excuse for apathy. It was the cause of apathy. In a game where you can execute scum every day and still lose (by a large margin!), correctly identifying town is actively harmful, and town can control about 20% of the total deaths, it's pretty hard to feel like more effort would produce a better result.

[Something_Smart]

I disagree with every single thing you said here

I mean I'm explaining how I felt so I'm not sure if you think those aren't my real feelings or what

[Something_Smart]

Didnt bank on being close to conf!town from that though

Fwiw this was based on the assumption that there wasn't a 2 person team remaining.

[Something_Smart]

Cross killing is part of the balance of the game. Scum factions in multiball should be just as interested in killing scum in the day as town and should be (until they are the strongest/only scum faction) more interested in shooting scum at night.

I agree that cross killing is part of the balance. This only proves my point further-- since it's very difficult for town to win without cross kills, our chances to win are highly dependent on things out of our control.

If you assume that x amount of cross kills happen, the correct play is still to try to eliminate scum during the day and honestly it felt like you werent trying to do that at all and if you had, just tried a LITTLE bit more, town could have won this game.

"Tried a little bit more" = "had literally perfect reads"? After N4 it was surely out of our hands. Even if we got scum on D4 it still is 6:4 on D5, and you'll notice that the triple town kill happened because we had people confirmed as town. I do think it would have been better to not use my ability, or lie about my result.

After N4, the dominant strategy is to not die and that means looking like I don't care.

And that's even assuming more effort produces a better result. A 2 person scumteam in a 24 player game is basically town in the amount of information they have. I don't really know what you think more effort would have accomplished.

And fyi, you can defend your design paradigm all you want, but you can't convince me that I had fun when I try to explain why I didn't. You did signal beforehand that you don't like predictable games, so I know it's on me for joining it, but I think my feedback is still valuable. Making sure the players have fun is the top (and arguably only) priority of the game mod, after all.