KTaNE [game over!]

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VOTE: stramgenatter

hey gang

i dont like the let-er-blow proposal. even if we ignore the alt wincons and look at just team numbers. letting the bomb explode by default potentially gives scum a nightly kill. successfully defusing bombs will bring that nk spread down significantly, probably by at least like a third. that is too much of a pure advantage to ignore imo.

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sneak peek of the first page of the mod pt postgame:

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VOTE: Andante

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What is the biggest factor preventing us from just sending people to try and be bomb experts, like in resistance, have them try to succeed, and if there's a failure, it's guaranteed someone sabotaged so we still learn something?

If we play the other way, as catboi mentioned, scum gets an additional nightkill and we can't use the system. But we do stop them from being able to achieve their alternate wincon. Is their alternate wincon so likely though? If scum decides the defuser, and they have to put their own members in the defuser spot a bunch of times to win, and they also need to live, won't we notice that? It's gonna be a huge difference if scum nominates consensus townreads in other to nightkill them, versus tries to slip their own members in that chair. At least, to me it would seem that way

Had I rolled scum this game my goal would have been to propose something more or less like the former, playing it like resistance, and blitz the alternate win condition. Four successes is a small amount and it's certainly easier than trying to cut through an enormous amount of townies with a limited supply of nightkills. I would think there's at least a few other players in this game who'd think that way.

I don't think the scum alt wincon is as scary as you are making it out to be. certainly not something that can be blitzed. reasons morning already mentioned but i feel this post was overlooked.

If we play the other way, as catboi mentioned, scum gets an additional nightkill and we can't use the system. But we do stop them from being able to achieve their alternate wincon. Is their alternate wincon so likely though? If scum decides the defuser, and they have to put their own members in the defuser spot a bunch of times to win, and they also need to live, won't we notice that? It's gonna be a huge difference if scum nominates consensus townreads in other to nightkill them, versus tries to slip their own members in that chair. At least, to me it would seem that way

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what other parts of frogster's play is that prompting you to look into? @SM

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I grossly disagree with using them to accelerate the game via double kills.

please read the game. or at least the rules.

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seriously tho where does that statement come from?

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mafia chooses the defuser each night. town votes to nominate the experts. there is no fully functional townkill because even if experts choose to detonate, they are only playing scum's wifom game.

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@The Buldge. Bad wording, didn't mean other parts of Frogster's play. I'm just saying they're right, but their reason doesn't feel very legitimate from what I can tell.

do you have thoughts on anything else frogster has said? does your current suspicion affect how you're reading their content?

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HEAL: praetorian

gotchu

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saucy

but i wanna talk mech w you before reads

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@catboi

What is the biggest factor preventing us from just sending people to try and be bomb experts, like in resistance, have them try to succeed, and if there's a failure, it's guaranteed someone sabotaged so we still learn something?

If we play the other way, as catboi mentioned, scum gets an additional nightkill and we can't use the system. But we do stop them from being able to achieve their alternate wincon. Is their alternate wincon so likely though? If scum decides the defuser, and they have to put their own members in the defuser spot a bunch of times to win, and they also need to live, won't we notice that? It's gonna be a huge difference if scum nominates consensus townreads in other to nightkill them, versus tries to slip their own members in that chair. At least, to me it would seem that way

Had I rolled scum this game my goal would have been to propose something more or less like the former, playing it like resistance, and blitz the alternate win condition. Four successes is a small amount and it's certainly easier than trying to cut through an enormous amount of townies with a limited supply of nightkills. I would think there's at least a few other players in this game who'd think that way.

I don't think the scum alt wincon is as scary as you are making it out to be. certainly not something that can be blitzed. reasons morning already mentioned but i feel this post was overlooked.

If we play the other way, as catboi mentioned, scum gets an additional nightkill and we can't use the system. But we do stop them from being able to achieve their alternate wincon. Is their alternate wincon so likely though? If scum decides the defuser, and they have to put their own members in the defuser spot a bunch of times to win, and they also need to live, won't we notice that? It's gonna be a huge difference if scum nominates consensus townreads in other to nightkill them, versus tries to slip their own members in that chair. At least, to me it would seem that way

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I had a strategy at first but there's a clear counter if I say it.

experts should be especially careful about telegraphing their intentions.

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@catboi

What is the biggest factor preventing us from just sending people to try and be bomb experts, like in resistance, have them try to succeed, and if there's a failure, it's guaranteed someone sabotaged so we still learn something?

If we play the other way, as catboi mentioned, scum gets an additional nightkill and we can't use the system. But we do stop them from being able to achieve their alternate wincon. Is their alternate wincon so likely though? If scum decides the defuser, and they have to put their own members in the defuser spot a bunch of times to win, and they also need to live, won't we notice that? It's gonna be a huge difference if scum nominates consensus townreads in other to nightkill them, versus tries to slip their own members in that chair. At least, to me it would seem that way

Had I rolled scum this game my goal would have been to propose something more or less like the former, playing it like resistance, and blitz the alternate win condition. Four successes is a small amount and it's certainly easier than trying to cut through an enormous amount of townies with a limited supply of nightkills. I would think there's at least a few other players in this game who'd think that way.

I don't think the scum alt wincon is as scary as you are making it out to be. certainly not something that can be blitzed. reasons morning already mentioned but i feel this post was overlooked.

If we play the other way, as catboi mentioned, scum gets an additional nightkill and we can't use the system. But we do stop them from being able to achieve their alternate wincon. Is their alternate wincon so likely though? If scum decides the defuser, and they have to put their own members in the defuser spot a bunch of times to win, and they also need to live, won't we notice that? It's gonna be a huge difference if scum nominates consensus townreads in other to nightkill them, versus tries to slip their own members in that chair. At least, to me it would seem that way

Okay? I'm not sure if you were expecting a comment from me on that, I'm not sure how you think I "overlooked" a post you quoted me replying to.

It seems largely the difference of opinion is based around whether we anticipate scum to select obvious town or more uncertain players for the defuser position. I would not support killin a consensus townread that is made defuser, as I have already stated.

technicalities. overlooked that part of the post, then.

you haven't responded to a point that i feel is pretty damning to your whole position, don't try and shut me down.

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Sorry, I meant I don’t really have much thoughts elsewhere on what Frogs is doing.

do you agree/disagree with any of their reads in particular?

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scum can't just strongarm their wincon without the majority of them being widely townread. it would be very easy to catch on and simply eliminate scum and put a hiatus on defusing bombs.

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scum can't just strongarm their wincon without the majority of them being widely townread. it would be very easy to catch on and simply eliminate scum and put a hiatus on defusing bombs.

*eliminate the scum defusers

and to be clear, idk where i stand exactly on when to defuse and when not, but i don't think we should be minmaxing it.

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we should just evaluate daily the benefits of defusing a bomb (ie, defuser stays alive, information from nk, etc) and decide what to do based on the circumstances. if by lategame the alt wincon seems viable then we can push for it. otherwise, there's only 4 scum out there. not hard to win via elimination.

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although i guess we don't know the defuser until after twilight. if we're nominating consensus townies as experts, it should be up to them to decide amongst themselves in their hood, assuming open discussion is allowed.

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the defuser and the experts are free to discuss the game as they wish.

definitely thinking the experts should take advantage of this and hold open court before getting to any of the minigame stuff. defuser should probably be excluded from discussion for the most part.

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although i guess we don't know the defuser until after twilight. if we're nominating consensus townies as experts, it should be up to them to decide amongst themselves in their hood, assuming open discussion is allowed.

Hard thing will be finding 8 consensus townies in the early game of a large probably.

actually, this raises a question for me:

mod, does town get to decide which chosen experts go to which bomb?

that's fair, but it's fine as long as there are a handful of strong townplayers, which all odds say there will be

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the defuser and the experts are free to discuss the game as they wish.

definitely thinking the experts should take advantage of this and hold open court before getting to any of the minigame stuff. defuser should probably be excluded from discussion for the most part.

I don't like the idea of excluding a diffuser. That's our last chance to read them.

hmmmmm yea i guess more info is more info. im just worried about a scum plant changing the course of discussion. giving them a voice in the pt gives scum more edge in their decision of who to nominate.

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Again, this disagreement feels largely theoretical and based around us having different expectations.

i'm more curious about the fact your stance hasn't seemed to change since 21 despite mech discussions dominating large portions of the game so far.

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Again, this disagreement feels largely theoretical and based around us having different expectations.

i'm more curious about the fact your stance hasn't seemed to change since 21 despite mech discussions dominating large portions of the game so far.

Because the counterarguments aren't particularly compelling to me. They assume different things about who scum will nominate and how well town will be able to sort out its reads. At this point since it's all hypothetical we can go in circles for days.

Do you think my stance not changing is meaningful for my alignment in some way?

I'm leaning scum cuz it looks like agenda-based play. and I don't mean necessarily in a sense like you've developed a plan pre-game and are trying to ensure town will comply, more just that your stance looks predetermined and doesn't look to be naturally evolving with the thread.

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reading up

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caught up to 30, woke up to 10 more pages. depending on the state of things after work today i may just stop reading there. I've got a few posts tabbed on my laptop but for now I'll just
UNVOTE: Andante
early on i thought she looked like she was forcing content. now im thinking it could just be playstyle. still not sold on the utr but obviously my vote does no good there.