KTaNE [game over!]

[GuiltyLion]

ok Menalque I read through your spoilered case and I gotta say it's legit

I totally forgot about that outta-nowhere fit that Pooky threw about how he believed Dwlee was going to make him defuser and blow him up that way, at the time that felt way exaggerated and contrived

I still don't like Andante completely 180'd on Dwlee to push VPB instead by pretending she had a result, but I guess maybe that's not as indicative as I think it is since no one else seems to be interested in it.

You make a really good point about how VPB was trying to push misty over himself so he could claim the Andres bomb was rigged and I think you highlighting where Pooky may have been aiming for that as well is fairly convincing

I still wanna reread and still haven't yet, gonna do a bit of that now

[GuiltyLion]

not sure if anyone is still seriously pushing Mena but Mena/MorningTweet feel quite unaligned in their back and forth on the first 7 pages

VP Baltar's 166 also makes me think town!Mena - it's rare you see scum ask scum to explain read on another scum, very janky angle for conversation it puts pressure on the ask-ee to continue to post a plausible anti-associative read on their partner

[GuiltyLion]

Like i think it's very likely that scum rigged andante's group to blow up to chain miselims in that group

Which makes andante likely town in my eyes

oh also I was thinking about this and my first reaction was that we don't actually know that scum rigged the catboi bomb, but then I realized it's the most logical guess/explanation because they clearly didn't rig any other bombs and that's an ability you want to use as early as possible, if they didn't rig catboi then they straight up wasted the ability. so yeah I guess this is actually the best point for town!Andante I think

[GuiltyLion]

kinda doubting Andante gives reads on all three buddies in town/scum sections in 380 when she has half the rest of the game in a null/unsorted pile

[GuiltyLion]

I got to page 25 yesterday, gonna keep rereading from there for a bit as I lay in bed

Also pooky's interactions with VPB and MT on D1 don't look aligned. pooky kept trying to engage MT and getting stonewalled by her. I guess if they were SvS, the explanation for this would be MT was just not confident in her scum abilities to keep an SvS conversation going, but it seemed more like MT was afraid to interact with pooky to me? I'd appreciate a second opinion on this.

Which MT posts give you that impression? I've been rereading specifically looking for things that look unaligned to me and I haven't seen anything that made me think Pooky was definitely unaligned with the scums. And on a pure gut level 366 and 416 from VPB felt a lot like teammate interactions, though I know from a rational perspective it's prob NAI since I can imagine worlds where that's T-S

Reviewed.
It’s down to pooky or enchant imo.

can you do me a solid and explain why you have me as town? I'm a lil worried I could be a game losing miselim if we miss today and I think the N2 hood should be a solid piece of evidence for me not being scum here but if you die I'll be the only person remaining from it

[GuiltyLion]

- 595 hmm bad vibes here from menalque

This is the only other spot where I was like 'huh?' on your analysis.

Why does that post give you bad vibes?

again not the strongest evidence but I feel like this is usually not a post scum makes if they're partnered with Menalque

[GuiltyLion]

892 is interesting, I don't think that can't come from town!Pooky but it sure is a convenient reason not to join or encourage a budding MT wagon

[GuiltyLion]

not that anyone's really scumreading CSF but 998 is not a post that comes from scum!VPB in a scum!CSF world, that's a post that comes from a nervous scum and it exists solely to try to throw townies off the right track, if CSF was distancing he wouldn't be threatened and I smell a lot of fear in that post

[GuiltyLion]

FOUND IT VP!!!! Pick your poison

So I read your ISO in this game....we were not good at reading each other! You were scumreading me there for terrible reasons too, and I hadn't played with you before, so took your bad faith reading as scum motivation.

I think I understand you a little better since then and wouldn't get a scumread on you for those same foolish reasons.

I still don't see how that game was the basis for your scumread on me here tho, when you didn't really get my town game there either....

doesn't really feel like theater to me, feels like buddying

[GuiltyLion]

aaah it's the absence of posts, I see

yeah, it does feel like she doesn't feel comfortable talking to him. and I did notice she ghosted the thread after 1092. I don't think this strongly points to Pooky town but it is a decent point in his favor

[GuiltyLion]

"you can't townread cephrir for being the only one to think about this because i did too. but i didn't really since it was a half baked idea"

plz tell me what is wrong with my characterization or what the town motivation is

Lol, Greeting can certainly townread you for it. Just wasn't your idea. Credit where it's due.

Maybe you came to the conclusion independently, idk. Just saying you definitely weren't the first person to bring it up. I think greeting is more town than you, so I'd prefer they have all the information when making their decision on reads. That's my motivation.

This is a perspective slip because of what's unsaid here.

from VPB!town's POV - he should be townreading cephrir for having the same thought process as he does - unless he wants to claim that Cephrir is just plagiarizing him 800 posts later or w/e but that's clearly not his intent as he didn't even state things in the way Cephrir did.

Instead he seems peeved that Cephrir is getting town-read for a post that he already made - the goal isn't actually because he thinks Cephrir is scum - he just wants his own town cred for "saying something similar" which is kind of ????

Like this game isn't about seeing who can score the most town!points for statements about game state - this game is about sorting between bad guys and good guys. VP's entire conversation with Cephrir isn't about sorting Cephrir - it's about saying oh it's unfair Ceph is getting credit for something that I already said sort of kind of - which is not a town mindset.

I think a big question for this game is

a) If town!Pooky, why does scum put VPB into his hood on N1 after Pooky posts this pretty damning (in hindsight) point against VPB
b) if town!Pooky, how did he evolve from here to helping VPB defuse the bomb?

Menalque brought this up in his case against Pooky and I do think it feels wonky that scum put VPB in a hood with Pooky and VPB walked out of it alive, when Pooky was scumraeding VPB D1 and is enough of a loose cannon that I fully believe he wouldn't be afraid to vig a scumread

[GuiltyLion]

oh I was thinking from the perspective of managing optics, like if Menalque is scum VPB is blatantly defending him there in the least effective way possible, it just doesn't seem like a post made with intention to mask an associative between them if he were to flip. "Can you explain why you scumread my buddy?" is not something I usually see. But then again VPB posted content non-stop so maybe he's not a "sweat the associatives" scum like I am

CSF can you (/have you already) summarized th N1 thread in terms of how Menalque and Pooky each talked about VPB? Do you buy that Pooky was willing to kill VPB and let himself get talked down by Menalque specifically? Is there anything in that hood that really stands out to you?

[GuiltyLion]

I mean, if there's actual meta with the only being nice as maf, I'll back this read, do you have an example of a game where he was nice as maf?

i haven't played vs scum!him since like 2009? 2010?

every game i've played vs him is TvT and we basically scream at each other for like 40 pages about how the other person is a giant scumfuck and eventually we figure out we're town.

actually aaaa

I am thinking about this post a lot.

I think if Pooky believes this, and was scum with VPB in this game, they would have theatered really hard, right? Like if I'm scum!Pooky and I wanna endgame and I'm buds with VPB I woulda played up a massive, massive, game long fight to the point where no one could possibly think we were aligned. basically what I did with goats in white flag.

but their fights in this game, especially D1 were pretty mild? Pooky dropped it for a lot of D2/D3? I dunno if scum!him would post this while consciously not trying to replicate his T-T meta with VPB or make a giant show of it.

I'm about to fall asleep and I'll sleep on it but this post in particular is making me think Pooky is town

[GuiltyLion]

is it just Mena after all

have I effectively exhausted every avenue of paranoia around Andante/Enchant/Pooky yet before coming back to the obvious answer

[GuiltyLion]

cuz from what i remember of your d1 play when you get heat, you usually just tell everyone to fuck off and claim you are town and refuse to give a shit

here you're doing some real performative bendy twisty readlist that looks like you basically just pulled up isos one by one and wrote some shit out like some kid who hasn't done his homework and is busy trying to write it all out b4 the teacher shows up.

I do find it kind of funny that right after I point out you're not really a presence in this game and haven't even attacked me, which is highly unusual for town!pooky, you magically show up and try to play tough.

Hmm, ok ok, noted down, bear .

yea being nice cuz he's a scumbag

I can definitely be meaner. I don't think it's always very good for games when I am and I'm trying to be better about that generally.

Nothing this game has really gotten me tilted though either.

and these feel like VPB doesn't actually want to fight with Pooky

I know not everyone plays scum the way I do but if I'm scum I'm ramping up the dis-associative playz at this point, not trying to throw cold water on our nice little fight we got goin. like if I were Pooky I'd be telling VPB in the scum PT to come at me

[GuiltyLion]

lmao Enchant you trickster you

He basically refused to give info the whole night and I was all set to die, and kinda had POE'd my way back to him, then he submitted his solve at the last second

Unless this is galaxy brain wifom stuff from a losing position (in which case we could still lim him tomorrow), I kinda feel like that points to Pooky?? Not gonna lie I'm really still feeling like no solve feels good or correct

Andante you think Enchant is just trying to stall the inevitable? What good does it do to troll all night and then save me at the last second?

[GuiltyLion]

Dwlee a lot of my reservations with Pooky are around D1, I don't feel like he seems aligned with Baltar or MT. Have you looked at those?

[GuiltyLion]

Maybe I'm a fool but I struggle to see why scum in the hood last night would save me

Andante even gave her solve before Enchant was openly refusing to give his

[GuiltyLion]

Yeah, it's just that to me they almost look like he wasn't manipulating them, if that makes sense? Like he could have distanced harder and he didn't, MT straight up ignored him, etc. It feels like an absence of necessary attempts at theater

I do want to respect Menalques point about how Pookys VPB read evaporated, though

[GuiltyLion]

yeah, I want Pooky to rock my world today with a real scumread and case

[GuiltyLion]

so scum has used 2 kills

we know they should have had at least 4 (1 at gamestart, 2 from VPB defuses, 1 from GL+Andante regardless of Andante's alignment), there's a world where Andante is scum where they have 5.

nearly certainly at least one was saved between all the protectives/JKing in the first few nights

is it worth trying to speculate what happened to the other one?

[GuiltyLion]

cause I definitely don't think scum should or would be holstering shots at this point, they need to kill as many townies as they can here

[GuiltyLion]

that is the obvious answer but it doesn't actually help him, right? let's say we lim you today and you flip town, how does he not go next?

I guess if Enchant is scum he's in a tight spot no matter what so maybe I shouldn't say it's especially town-indicative, but it seems strictly worse for scum that I'm alive and conftown here than if I were dead. in the PT I was thinking it didn't matter if I flipped or not because I thought there'd be a kill tonight, but if they didn't have an NK to use then 7 alive with a conftown is way better than 6 alive. We've bought an extra miselim even if we blow up every bomb

[GuiltyLion]

honestly I was surprised people were willing to defuse the bomb, if I were them I don't think I would have done it. guess I might have a chance to find out tonight hah

[GuiltyLion]

I've reread pages 1-50 prior to Mena flip and then reread some of Enchant in ISO overnight, but haven't done a proper reread of 50+ onwards. I do want to do that during this day phase especially since I feel like I gotta really tryhard now that I'm conf

[GuiltyLion]

also, whoever that was like "all 4 maf said we elected defusers" like... why would only the maf say it?? if I see something being said here, I'll roll with it, like if yall are saying we're electing defusers, I'll say it too, doesn't make me scum, sure 3 of the maf said it, but ehhh not sure I buy that only all 4 maf said it

Hold up I found another Andante Inconsistency (if this were any other player I'd be lock tunneled on them but with Andante I guess I could see it from town...)

Dwlee check the first page of the N6 hood again. In there, on April 25th, Andante said she "loved" CSFs case about potentially all four mafia misunderstanding the set up and making the same defuser mistake, and says she thinks Mena is mafia. But then three days later, she's questioning the case and saying she doesn't buy it?

Again am I wrong to think this stuff means Andante shouldn't endgame?? Its hard for me to trust with certainty that her posts/beliefs are genuine when she 180s so dramatically without even acknowledging it

[GuiltyLion]

Actually yeah CSF you were in that hood too - Does town!Andante forget that she already agreed with you on the case just a few days ago? And forget that you were the one who said it?

[GuiltyLion]

I think overall it's hard for me to ignore that 7 alive is so much better for town than 6 alive rn, it makes me think Enchant/Andante should ne off the table today

[GuiltyLion]

Also I am thinking, if you're scum expert, and you pick me to defuse and then save me, your goal would be to pocket me so hard that I let you endgame, right? If they didn't have a kill why not blow me up, I'm the only person you can plausibly blow up strictly for mech paranoia reasons. But now I'm also conftown and someone you need to kill if you want a better ELO just by the numbers. It's just really hard for me to see this as a pro scum move

[GuiltyLion]

I'm gonna do the reread but at the moment I think my main goal is gonna be to sanity check that I should be safely townreading Dwlee/CSF, and then prob vote Pooky assuming I still think those two are town. If scum!Enchant yolo saved last night that can be a 5p concern. And if scum!Andante she can't put herself as defuser tonight because I will blow her up so she has to blow up either a POE candidate or kill them if she wants to get rid of two townies tonight and we put a consensus townread as the other expert

[GuiltyLion]

We should probably think about the merits of making me expert vs not making me expert btw. Too lazy to think at all about it yet but there may be merit to the idea if we can restrict scums defuser options

[GuiltyLion]

sorry all, work this week was a lot and it's my birthday this weekend so I got some fun plans for tonight and tomorrow. I might have some time to play late late tonight (no promises though) or tomorrow morning, but otherwise probably can't really commit hardcore time to this game until Sunday at earliest.

My one game related point I can make now is -Pooky, while you are right in a vacuum that scum could go from 4->2 and win which means 7 is not as much better than 6 as it is in a normal game, you're not really accounting for the fact that scum defuse is limited to only a subset of players, townies can safely defuse anybody who hasn't defused a bomb yet which is everyone other than Andante, and scum won't have an NK every single night unless they've still got one sitting around they haven't tried to use. So your argument is a little disingenous/misleading to downplay how 7 alive w/ conftown is still strictly better than 6 here.

I would argue that correct play for townies is to blow up Andante but defuse anybody else tonight

I will say you have an okay point about it making sense from scum!Bell if he thinks I'm deep enough in his pocket to set him up to win, but also when I reread the N2 hood a while back I came away with the impression that Bell wasn't aligned with misty/VPB. I'll reread it again at some point soon but yeah I remember Bell-Misty looked fairly unaligned in particular

[GuiltyLion]

[Assuming Andante!Town - which from the dayplay, the bussing, the faked guilties, the rigged bomb spec probably is close to 100% atp]

also I know I'm being Captain Buzzkill constantly harping on Andante this whole game but like, if I were town in Pooky's shoes, I really don't think I'd be anywhere near 100% townread confidence on Andante. I do feel like she's probably town, largely for the rigged bomb spec and her D1 associatives, but none of the fake guilty-ing or "bussing" (which she really didn't do this game...) are things I would say make me convinced she was town.

[GuiltyLion]

I care! I'm hear and going to be reading up and maybe finally picking up my reread again. I will look through Bell a lot more closely this go around

[GuiltyLion]

here* not hear jeez that does not bode well for how much I need to engage my brain now lmao

[GuiltyLion]

If GuiltyLion is in the PT claiming that he will vote for Pooky - then scum in PT have no reason to blow GLion up.

I was towncasing you in the PT and waffling between Enchant/Andante

[GuiltyLion]

Point about being able to lie about what GL said is true, but if I were in there I know I won't lie about it and so getting more time for conftown opinion seems good to me.

I've already said this but to be explicitly clear, I would not blow up anyone except Andante, mainly/primarily because she already has a defuse

so if I am an expert and die and somebody claims I decided to blow up the bomb in the PT, that is a lie

[GuiltyLion]

Depends if scum makes it in expert team and will able to blow up.

the last scum is a switcher so pretty sure they can just switch themselves into the team even if they dont get voted in

oh I don't think I need to be an expert, I think you are right that it's actually better to shrink scum's pool of defusers by nominating two uncleared players

I just wanted it on record in case y'all do make me an expert that I'm not going to blow up the bomb

as for experts, I think we should go with
HEAL: Dwlee99
HEAL: Cat Scratch Fever

[GuiltyLion]

whoops, didn't mean to quote that Pooky post

[GuiltyLion]

VC 1.07

fireisredsir [4]:

Bell,

Menalque

, Dwlee99,

Malakittens

Morning Tweet [4]:

Cephrir, fireisredsir, GuiltyLion, Titus

VP Baltar [3]:

Frogsterking

, PookyTheMagicalBear, Cat Scratch Fever

GuiltyLion [1]:

Morning Tweet

Cephrir [1]:

Greeting

Frogsterking [1]:

StrangeMatter

StrangeMatter [1]:

VP Baltar

not voting [5]:

Andresvmb

, Andante,

catboi

, The Bulge

VC 1.09

Morning Tweet [4]:

Cephrir, fireisredsir, GuiltyLion, Titus

fireisredsir [3]:

Bell,

Menalque

,

Malakittens

VP Baltar [3]:

Frogsterking

, PookyTheMagicalBear, Cat Scratch Fever

GuiltyLion [2]:

Morning Tweet

, Dwlee99

Frogsterking [1]:

StrangeMatter

StrangeMatter [1]:

VP Baltar

not voting [5]:

Andresvmb

, Andante,

catboi

, Enchant,

Greeting

I feel these are informative VCs, we have 4 confirmed town all voting a scum, so scum are likely maneuvering around that. Dwlee unvoting fire and moving to me is ++town I believe, as they were dismantling a counterwagon to scum. Pooky and CSF both parking their votes on VPB when there was a fair amount of suspicion on VPB through D1 are good looks. Enchant would later go on to vanity vote catboi, absolutely not a useful vote. I'm remembering that I really have not liked any of Enchant's voting behavior this entire game.

Dwlee I don't think you should put a ton of stock into Enchant's healing everyone or suggesting to put scummy players in the initial N1 bomb expert groups. Words are cheap, Enchant didn't really do much to actually try to shove a scum into the town block so I don't think it's strong evidence for him being town.

[GuiltyLion]

Later we have an Andres wagon spring up

fireisredsir [5]:

Bell,

Menalque

,

Malakittens

,

catboi

, Dwlee99

Andresvmb [5]:

Frogsterking

,

VP Baltar

, Cat Scratch Fever,

Mistyx

,

fireisredsir

Mistyx [4]:

Cephrir, GuiltyLion, Titus

, Andante

VP Baltar [1]:

PookyTheMagicalBear

Frogsterking [1]:

StrangeMatter

catboi [1]:

Enchant

not voting [2]:

Andresvmb, Greeting

Andante hopping on Misty wagon is +++town. keeping in mind too Tweet/Misty had the strongest scum PR. I doubt CSF is scum in this VC as well just because I rarely if ever see three scum all bloc together on a wagon like that, especially since the fire wagon still had a lot of legs, there'd be no need to push a new wagon

[GuiltyLion]

Pooky, why are you townreading Enchant?

I am considering you town here but I don't vibe with the Bell scumread at all really. I'm going to keep doing my homework today but it feels like you pivoted to Bell when I and others indicated we thought Enchant defusing my bomb was a townie action. I would think if you are town Enchant would be the first person I'd flip so I want to understand what prompted you to rule him out

[GuiltyLion]

Menalque, PookyTheMagicalBear, Cat Scratch Fever, Cephrir - group 2 bomb experts
VP Baltar - group 2 bomb defuser

Part of the reason I can't ever feel truly good about a Pooky townread is this

why would scum!VPB put himself in a hood with four townies one of whom has been scumreading and voting him all day

it just seems like it makes much more sense in the world where Pooky is scum and can decide to either:

1. blow up VPB and reap towncred for it all game
or
2. if consensus seems like they want to defuse, roll with consensus to make sure his buddy lives and gets a defuse

[GuiltyLion]

also, what do we think scum was informed of via Mala's role? The only thing I can think would make sense is the existence of (probably) 4 protectives

[GuiltyLion]

I've been reading pages 50-90 but barely gleaned anything useful from it, a lot of the thread energy during that time is dead players sorting fire/Andres

Gonna take a break now but be back later

[GuiltyLion]

Andante when you get back, can you explain how you went from dwlee is scum at the end of day 4 to VPB is scum at the beginning of day 5?

Spoiler:

VOTE: Dwlee

no. I TR nothing about Dwlee. Dwlee has only significantly changed their playstyle after pooky and I were like "dwlee has done 0 solving"

now dwlee is maf purposely angering me. whatever

--- end of day 4 with Strange limmed ---

VOTE: VP

Dwlee is town

lol wait until you can read last night's hood, I tried to get Andante to explain this several times and she wouldn't

it is my single biggest question mark with her, I truly don't understand how or why she evolved from SRing Dwlee to hard claiming a (fake) inno result on them overnight after Strange flipped town

[GuiltyLion]

I should have time to keep rereading today, would appreciate no random hammers

I am still ultimately leaning Pooky I think, the Bell case is just not convincing, but I need to review N2 hood again and also read D3

I think CSF's points for town!Enchant are alright, I forgot about the dumbtell around the scum 4 defuse wincon

[GuiltyLion]

what's weird is we have this knot of people in the POE townreading eachother

Pooky seems convinced it's Bell, no suspicion of Enchant/Andante
Bell seems convinced it's Pooky, no suspicion of Enchant/Andante
Andante was pushing Enchant, TRs Pooky virtually no suspicion there
Enchant thinks ... ??

why is whoever is town in this group so convinced they have it right when I am finding decent reasons to doubt a scumread on everybody

[GuiltyLion]

like even if Pooky is scum he's right that Bell has kinda just been like "It's Pooky, here's why I'm town, I don't need to engage with anything else"

every now and then there are Pooky posts that feel town

why are we assuming scum wouldn't go into N1 rigging a bomb with 2T and 1S and then bussing Andante for their own associative gain? are we sure that's completely out of the realm of possibility? Andante also asked why so many people were healing her throughout D1

[GuiltyLion]

oh duh

yeah

[GuiltyLion]

unless you wanted to like, bus Misty and WIFOM argue that scum rigged it so therefore you're town

which is not how they played it so I don't think that happened here, but probably would have been worth considering as a scumteam

[GuiltyLion]

I think I really just need to get over the inexplicable Andante "Dwlee conf scum" -> "Dwlee town I have an inno" progression but it's just so hard for me lol

[GuiltyLion]

Yea that plan came about once VP blew up Andres and it was clear he hoped to argue we were both town through Mistyx's flip

IIRC Enchant pushed back pretty strongly against limming Misty over Dwlee/VPB at the time but I need to actually reread that section

[GuiltyLion]

btw I'm gonna try to continue the reread after work maybe 3-4 hours from now

[GuiltyLion]

I got through 95-125 before my eyes started glazing over and fatigue hit me

again nothing that really stood out to me as worth dregging up and talking about

I think my overall impression is that there are bits and conversations where Enchant, Andante, Bell all feel genuinely unaligned with VPB. The biggest thing standing out to me is an absence of any serious direct interactions between VPB and Pooky in a way that he has with most other players. I know earlier I said I felt one point in Pooky's favor was that his associatives don't look like they're trying to not look associated, but when I'm getting deep into Real Game Content in D3 and I still don't have a sense that Pooky has really talked with any of the scum in any meaningful fashion, it starts to stick out a lot worse

I still need to reread the N2 hood again

[GuiltyLion]

or if we policy blow him up at 4th defusal, we have 0 chance of losing

if VPB is town, we reset to 0 defusals for scum and we get three more defusals with no worries.

if VPB is scum, we just policy bomb everyone and dare the scumbags to try to win

We can lim Pooky and if scum, then lim Baltar.

Why not indeed.

Why you avoiding the mala wagon enchant?

this I thought pointed pretty strongly away from scum!Enchant

far easier for me to see this as scum trying to throw some shade on a townie for the upcoming red flip rather than scum coaching/distancing a buddy to vote the other one

like I get that the latter happens on occasion, but this is so direct it'd be really clumsy if it was theater, and so immediately after Enchant was calling out a potential Pooky-Baltar associative

[GuiltyLion]

Actually, there was this one thing that I did want to bring up

I also noted that I wouldn’t have needed to claim to get me through yesterday, and then make myself a target by swapping myself into the PT. As a strategic decision, attracting heat when I had weathered the storm yesterday and gotten a claim out (if I were Scum) didn’t seem sensible, but you all have to judge that.

Let's assume you are town, why do you think there was such a frenzy for the fire wagon yesterday as soon as your wagon took off a little bit?

I am Town. I claimed Doctor and there was no NK yesterday. Do you think the Scum held back from firing? Has anyone stepped forward to explain in a different way why there was no extra kill? Like I really can’t make this easier for you.

Scum sometimes push alternative wagons, and after my claim (and some clear resistance from multiple players against executing me), they probably felt they needed to push elsewhere. Frog still tried to bury me by ridiculing my claim. But they couldn’t get traction so they pushed fire relying on a flawed argument from catboi who was clearly trying their best and had a reasonable argument.

Like you can’t fault me for thinking the arguments against fire were reasonable and not argue against all of the other players that also landed there. I’m not hiding and saying I don’t own my vote I do. But you asked me what I relied on for it and when I tell you you say it’s bullshit. Well, it is what it is.

Andres posts using the lack of NK in his defense of his doctor claim, speculating on why there wasn't one

I find it interesting how Mena's recap of the hood is so different from the others... like,

I've been kinda suspicious of pooky, and that's where in a T/T world with VP and Pooky, I assumed VP was going to die last night, but now I'm wondering why scum!Pooky would save a town!VP, the sudden weird "yeah let's heal DW!!" yesterday honestly could just be pooky scum for why it seemed so odd to me, idk!!! but both Ceph and CSF gave off Pooky towny, then Mena is like "yeah pooky wasn't towny" so ehhh idk!!!

I'm LAUGHING so hard at frogster's claim... "all I have to do is live till day 5 to prove myself!!" you had no care about catboi living till D2 to prove himself... so why would you have till d5??

everyone has checked in, can frogster go bye bye now?

Andante posts throwing suspicion at Pooky and the weirdness of VPB/Pooky N1 hood defuse

Like you can’t fault me for thinking the arguments against fire were reasonable and not argue against all of the other players that also landed there. I’m not hiding and saying I don’t own my vote I do. But you asked me what I relied on for it and when I tell you you say it’s bullshit. Well, it is what it is.

Eh, not really what I asked you. I asked you to explain your vote on fire, as in what did you find scummy? And you basically said "well catboi wanted it and I trusted him," which of course looks to me like you're putting it on a dead player.

It definitely is what it is. What I am trying to assess is whether you found fire scummy or just wanted to save yourself, which doesn't even necessarily make you scum.

The biggest thing that points to you being scum is the sheer speed that people powered that wagon through based on catbois case. I was there and didn't even have time to fully read his case before people ended it!

As far as the lack of NK, I have no idea, but in your world pooky should be lock town, yeah?

VPB comments and mixes up the two players. He is responding to Andres but then sees Andante's post in p-edit and assumes she is Andres. He is

very quick

to say Pooky should be lock town and downplay Andante's reasonable suspicion, seemingly making no effort to stop and think about why town!Andres would be shading his own potential-doc save, instead just leaping at an opportunity to imply Pooky should be lock town and it's scummy for 'Andres' to think otherwise.

Lol oh that pedit was andante not andres

He catches his mistake

why should pooky be lock town to me?

Andante is confused

why should pooky be lock town to me?

Ignore that part. It is pretty coffee times here and I saw "and***" In the pedit going after pooky right after andres was taking town cred for stopping a NK on pooky so I was like "OH NO HE DIDNT"....but it was I who cannot read!

There was 30 minutes between his previous spurt of rapid fire posting and this post where he explains it. I feel this is also a bit over-explainy, obviously when you're scum and you make mistakes like this you feel a lot of pressure to explain your mix up. I know regardless of Pooky's alignment he probably felt nerves to hand wave his mistake/lack of close reading - which we know was ultimately due to him being scum bullshitting a push on a town!Andres - buuuut in my head I am just getting a sense that part of the tense/nerves of the situation was he was trying to 'lock-town' Pooky to a player who had no reason to lock-town Pooky. He doesn't even give his own read on Pooky during this exchange which I would sort of expect from town in this situation, even if he were just talking to Andres.

I dunno if I explained this well as it's late and I am tired, but def caught my eye on reread

[GuiltyLion]

anyway yeah tomorrow I wanna reread

N2 hood w/ Bell
N4 hood w/ Pooky
VPB going down D5 - I remember a loooottt of potential anti-associative with Dwlee here and I wanna make sure it doesn't ping me on reread as too orchestrated just as a sanity check

but yeah, ultimately still leaning Pooky I think

[GuiltyLion]

I wanna know why Dwlee entered the day with that giant page case on VP tbh... like, I don't think they've done it for anyone else, and VP not pushing Dwlee like at all was odd

probably because entering the day it was a 50/50 between Dwlee and VPB as for who blew up Andres

[GuiltyLion]

I believe you're town. but my thoughts don't matter sooo

what's with the AtE

your thoughts obviously matter, however it's hard for me to understand and evaluate your perspective when you don't explain any of your reads, why do you have Pooky town or Enchant scum?? Your whole argument for Enchant scum is POE because Pooky/Bell are town so "it's that simple", but then your argument for why Pooky is town has never been explained?? You haven't responded to several anti-associative tells for Enchant posted by Dwlee, CSF,

and

myself. why do you expect us to take a simple "POOKY IS TOWN HERE" post seriously when the rest of us are spending hours of our time rereading the entire game, meanwhile you won't even explain the mindset behind your own posts (re: Dwlee read change)

and speaking of the 180s, you even did one on Pooky too

I'm definitely thinking Pooky is maf. not gonna lie

I'm definitely thinking Pooky is maf. not gonna lie

I mean like, I can't be the only one thinking this? there's too much of this nonsense from pooky... that nonsense to content ratio is bad

[GuiltyLion]

Sorry, I do understand it's finals week and I hope those are going well for you, it just kinda grinds my gears a little bit when I'm trying my best to squeeze in 1-3 hours of reading and thinking about this game every day and then you come in acting like we're just ignoring you for no reason

like I want to listen to you but hipfire hot takes aren't going to change my mind about stuff that I've sat with and reread. I've posted a few things I thought made Enchant look unaligned with scum, so has CSF, so has Dwlee, if you think Enchant is scum I'd ask you engage with those posts and explain why we're wrong instead of making a POE argument because you TR everyone else

[GuiltyLion]

Hard against Andres wagon

You will go down further in my lim pool if you try to kill there. We have some critically bad slots/dead weight this game.
They need to go way before Andre’s is even considered.

rereading 125+ onwards at the moment and I like these posts from Bell a lot. It's clear scum were trying to get rid of Andres in their Master Plan given they traded VPB for him, and yet here is Bell strongly taking a stance against an Andres wagon at a time when Andres was making himself a target and there was Real Support there

[GuiltyLion]

Way to go by hammering the tracker

Well

So much for keeping a low PROFILE

GG TOWN

I also forgot about how Dwlee apparently bungled their instructions in the N3 hood before Andres blew up which is v town indicative IMO

not that I think anyone is seriously suspecting Dwlee at this point but I feel reaaalllyyyy good about Dwlee/CSF town at the moment, and with Andante I feel I just have to roll with the mechanics argument, so if I can just get there on Bell too then it's auto

[GuiltyLion]

I'm so confused on the greeting kill tbh, like, what... lets lim mistyx!!!

YOU KNOW WHAT FINE FINE

LET'S KILL TOTALLY DIFFERENT PERSON INSTEAD OF 1/2-3 CHANCE TO KILL REAL MAF

YES IT WILL WORK.

HELL YES!

I think CSF called this out already but ++town Enchant

forgot Andante was kinda lowkey pushing misty after Andres blew up...

[GuiltyLion]

I mean, does it not make sense... I SRed you... gave up.... searched the files... reached the conclusion you were not responsible for the death of Greeting

I feel strange > vpb > dwlee in the hood

it's not strange

If that's a result, we should all be voting vpb

I'm down with that, orrrr just vote Mist

Mist was an expert for a bomb VP defused.

like

again

I know Andante D1 bomb group but like

WHAT IS THIS SEQUENCE OF POSTS

[GuiltyLion]

VPB HADN'T EVEN FLIPPED MAFIA YET

[GuiltyLion]

I was in class and getting lunch with a friend: it's cool that Strange did not kill Greeting but that is not a clear. Do you know that Mistyx did kill someone?

Do you tr Mistyx?

No she is my preferred lim immediately after we sort the hood

This is where I'm at.

No offense to andante, but she was part of the frogster debacle and it is very clear she doesn't have hard guilties or innos here. (Feel free to correct me if im wrong)

We have a much harder guilty in a group three....so better odds and better info. We sort that, then we lim mistyx, who indeed looks terrible here.

This isn't fucking rocket science.

No offense to andante, but she was part of the frogster debacle

Excuse me? you literally killed Greeting and Andres so it's my sole voice about what happened with frogster. FROGSTER WAS OPENLY CLAIMING MAFIA IN BOMB CHAT

VOTE: VP

this is why you killed the other 2

like, what are you freaking trying to go at? "andante was part of the frogster stuff" EXCUSE ME??? FROGSTER WAS CLAIMING MAFIA. AND CATBOI AND I WERE IGNORING FROG AND SOLVING AROUND THAT. So I WONDER why I've just been so defeated in general, so if you wanna go? let's go cause the answer is real easy to me then

you saying this now literally answers why Andres AND Greeting were killed.

yeah I'm not doing this. it's not that complicated.Mistyx is claiming maf here I think, and VP is just flat out maf

Thank you for proving my point.

what's your point?

what's your point?

Your reads are bad this game and you should let people who have caught mafia so far run the show.

You're trying to bullshit through something today on questionable info, and it is silly to try and distract from a wagon that is more likely to hit scum.

You can spam post and caps lock to your heart's content, but the facts are on my side here.

eh but then there's this especially this last VPB post makes me swing back to town!Andante more strongly again

classic "your reads are bad" townspew

[GuiltyLion]

yes, you are using sarcasm to steer the lim away from Misty when Misty flip could make VPB look town...

[GuiltyLion]

hold on just let me finish rereading the entire game first

jk ... unless?

nah but seriously I have read through end of D4 and I am feeling it is Pooky here and seems like that's the general consensus other than Andante? I can keep rereading a bit today but I don't think I'm going to suddenly pivot elsewhere and I feel I've done enough due diligence for now that I won't feel good voting elsewhere - Pooky if we're wrong I am sorry and I will do yet another deep reread (if I am still alive come tomorrow) and re-evaluate your Bell case.

[GuiltyLion]

cut to Menalque asleep in the dead thread having been bored to tears watching me ponderously labor my way to the exact conclusion he had reached 2 weeks prior

[GuiltyLion]

its actually amazing you can spend as much time as you have to reach the wrong conclusion after andante got the right conclusion by barely trying

i will reserve my comments for you in the dead thread.

The right conclusion regarding just your alignment? Or also her conclusion that Enchant is scum because Bell is also town, which is the opposite of what you've been saying all day

[GuiltyLion]

I know my own alignment

I do not know Bell's or Enchant's.

I think it's fairly obvious what I'm talking about since you were talking about killing me.

my point was that the snark is not really warranted, given that even if you are town and Andante is right about you being town, her conclusion on who is the remaining scum is the exact opposite of yours and so therefore if we were to lim you and then sheep her, we would lose the game in your mind, and if we were to lim you and then sheep you then she didn't have a correct solve either

[GuiltyLion]

ah shit it's Datisi's birthday!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY MY FELLOW TAURUS hope you're having a good one

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Pooky

I also don't wanna go back and highlight my own posts but rereading D3-D4 I remembered the strong scummy vibe I got from Pooky during that period, not touching on critical threads of the game, pushing Dwlee for NAI gotchas, buddying Andante

[GuiltyLion]

I hate the feeling of, whoever we lim here, if we miselim them it will still feel brutally difficult tomorrow. Like I said earlier, I have reasons to townread/scumread any of Enchant, Andante, Pooky, Bell. Dwlee and CSF are really the only people I'm convinced I'd bet the game on town

if this is wrong, scum please spare me and send me to the dead thread

[GuiltyLion]

it will be difficult tomm because i gave you every oppurtunity to figure out that im town and you more or less refused to talk to me for whatever reason

eh I mean for me the sticking point is I couldn't buy your Bell case and you didn't offer any other alternatives for scum

at this stage in the game I'm not gonna argue with you whether you are town/scum, I did take your Bell thoughts seriously and if I have conf on your alignment I'll engage with it again

[GuiltyLion]

I do not remember ever seriously pushing Dwlee this game so what are you even talking about.

like this is just not true, one immediate example is how you went hard on how they were scum because they said they'd blow you up if you were a defuse. but you also tried to say they were scum for gloating about scum!Frog on D2 before pointing out they weren't one of the Frog voters on D3, and at the time I flagged that as really disingenuous

[GuiltyLion]

GG EVERYONE!!! Thanks so much everyone for playing this game was wild and I had a lot of fun, lots of good personalities and by and large not too much drama! Sorry for the slog at the end with me holding up everything trying to reread so much, but as Pooky said:

maybe when you sign up for a game you have a commitment to read the

entire fucking game

This set up was unique and engaging, lots of opportunity for interesting decisions for both teams I feel. Thank you so much for designing and modding it Datisi!!! You know it was compelling for me when I was able to stay interested throughout despite periods of me being absent and coming back to 15+ pages to catch up on.

Pooky you had me fooled for quite some time! I def sympathize with how difficult it must have felt to chip away at this townblock, a lot of townies played really well here.

Also one more time Andante I'm sorry for being on your ass so much this game. I know I probably made it not always fun for ya and it's my responsibility to read ya better instead of trying to force you to explain things or town tell in ways that I want, I apologize for being salty in that N6 hood.

I haven't read any of the other threads yet and I'm looking forward to it.