KTaNE [game over!]
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ok Menalque I read through your spoilered case and I gotta say it's legit
I totally forgot about that outta-nowhere fit that Pooky threw about how he believed Dwlee was going to make him defuser and blow him up that way, at the time that felt way exaggerated and contrived
I still don't like Andante completely 180'd on Dwlee to push VPB instead by pretending she had a result, but I guess maybe that's not as indicative as I think it is since no one else seems to be interested in it.
You make a really good point about how VPB was trying to push misty over himself so he could claim the Andres bomb was rigged and I think you highlighting where Pooky may have been aiming for that as well is fairly convincing
I still wanna reread and still haven't yet, gonna do a bit of that now"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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not sure if anyone is still seriously pushing Mena but Mena/MorningTweet feel quite unaligned in their back and forth on the first 7 pages
VP Baltar's 166 also makes me think town!Mena - it's rare you see scum ask scum to explain read on another scum, very janky angle for conversation it puts pressure on the ask-ee to continue to post a plausible anti-associative read on their partner"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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oh also I was thinking about this and my first reaction was that we don't actually know that scum rigged the catboi bomb, but then I realized it's the most logical guess/explanation because they clearly didn't rig any other bombs and that's an ability you want to use as early as possible, if they didn't rig catboi then they straight up wasted the ability. so yeah I guess this is actually the best point for town!Andante I thinkIn post 5886, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:Like i think it's very likely that scum rigged andante's group to blow up to chain miselims in that group
Which makes andante likely town in my eyes"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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kinda doubting Andante gives reads on all three buddies in town/scum sections in 380 when she has half the rest of the game in a null/unsorted pile"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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I got to page 25 yesterday, gonna keep rereading from there for a bit as I lay in bed
Which MT posts give you that impression? I've been rereading specifically looking for things that look unaligned to me and I haven't seen anything that made me think Pooky was definitely unaligned with the scums. And on a pure gut level 366 and 416 from VPB felt a lot like teammate interactions, though I know from a rational perspective it's prob NAI since I can imagine worlds where that's T-SIn post 5988, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:Also pooky's interactions with VPB and MT on D1 don't look aligned. pooky kept trying to engage MT and getting stonewalled by her. I guess if they were SvS, the explanation for this would be MT was just not confident in her scum abilities to keep an SvS conversation going, but it seemed more like MT was afraid to interact with pooky to me? I'd appreciate a second opinion on this.
can you do me a solid and explain why you have me as town? I'm a lil worried I could be a game losing miselim if we miss today and I think the N2 hood should be a solid piece of evidence for me not being scum here but if you die I'll be the only person remaining from it
"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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again not the strongest evidence but I feel like this is usually not a post scum makes if they're partnered with MenalqueIn post 712, VP Baltar wrote:
This is the only other spot where I was like 'huh?' on your analysis.In post 702, fireisredsir wrote:- 595 hmm bad vibes here from menalque
Why does that post give you bad vibes?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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892 is interesting, I don't think that can't come from town!Pooky but it sure is a convenient reason not to join or encourage a budding MT wagon"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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not that anyone's really scumreading CSF but 998 is not a post that comes from scum!VPB in a scum!CSF world, that's a post that comes from a nervous scum and it exists solely to try to throw townies off the right track, if CSF was distancing he wouldn't be threatened and I smell a lot of fear in that post"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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doesn't really feel like theater to me, feels like buddyingIn post 1004, VP Baltar wrote:
So I read your ISO in this game....we were not good at reading each other! You were scumreading me there for terrible reasons too, and I hadn't played with you before, so took your bad faith reading as scum motivation.In post 640, Andante wrote:FOUND IT VP!!!! Pick your poison
I think I understand you a little better since then and wouldn't get a scumread on you for those same foolish reasons.
I still don't see how that game was the basis for your scumread on me here tho, when you didn't really get my town game there either...."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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aaah it's the absence of posts, I see
yeah, it does feel like she doesn't feel comfortable talking to him. and I did notice she ghosted the thread after 1092. I don't think this strongly points to Pooky town but it is a decent point in his favor"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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I think a big question for this game isIn post 1194, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:
This is a perspective slip because of what's unsaid here.In post 1121, VP Baltar wrote:
Lol, Greeting can certainly townread you for it. Just wasn't your idea. Credit where it's due.In post 1117, Cephrir wrote:"you can't townread cephrir for being the only one to think about this because i did too. but i didn't really since it was a half baked idea"
plz tell me what is wrong with my characterization or what the town motivation is
Maybe you came to the conclusion independently, idk. Just saying you definitely weren't the first person to bring it up. I think greeting is more town than you, so I'd prefer they have all the information when making their decision on reads. That's my motivation.
from VPB!town's POV - he should be townreading cephrir for having the same thought process as he does - unless he wants to claim that Cephrir is just plagiarizing him 800 posts later or w/e but that's clearly not his intent as he didn't even state things in the way Cephrir did.
Instead he seems peeved that Cephrir is getting town-read for a post that he already made - the goal isn't actually because he thinks Cephrir is scum - he just wants his own town cred for "saying something similar" which is kind of ????
Like this game isn't about seeing who can score the most town!points for statements about game state - this game is about sorting between bad guys and good guys. VP's entire conversation with Cephrir isn't about sorting Cephrir - it's about saying oh it's unfair Ceph is getting credit for something that I already said sort of kind of - which is not a town mindset.
a) If town!Pooky, why does scum put VPB into his hood on N1 after Pooky posts this pretty damning (in hindsight) point against VPB
b) if town!Pooky, how did he evolve from here to helping VPB defuse the bomb?
Menalque brought this up in his case against Pooky and I do think it feels wonky that scum put VPB in a hood with Pooky and VPB walked out of it alive, when Pooky was scumraeding VPB D1 and is enough of a loose cannon that I fully believe he wouldn't be afraid to vig a scumread"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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oh I was thinking from the perspective of managing optics, like if Menalque is scum VPB is blatantly defending him there in the least effective way possible, it just doesn't seem like a post made with intention to mask an associative between them if he were to flip. "Can you explain why you scumread my buddy?" is not something I usually see. But then again VPB posted content non-stop so maybe he's not a "sweat the associatives" scum like I am
CSF can you (/have you already) summarized th N1 thread in terms of how Menalque and Pooky each talked about VPB? Do you buy that Pooky was willing to kill VPB and let himself get talked down by Menalque specifically? Is there anything in that hood that really stands out to you?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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actually aaaaIn post 1222, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:
i haven't played vs scum!him since like 2009? 2010?In post 1219, Andante wrote:I mean, if there's actual meta with the only being nice as maf, I'll back this read, do you have an example of a game where he was nice as maf?
every game i've played vs him is TvT and we basically scream at each other for like 40 pages about how the other person is a giant scumfuck and eventually we figure out we're town.
I am thinking about this post a lot.
I think if Pooky believes this, and was scum with VPB in this game, they would have theatered really hard, right? Like if I'm scum!Pooky and I wanna endgame and I'm buds with VPB I woulda played up a massive, massive, game long fight to the point where no one could possibly think we were aligned. basically what I did with goats in white flag.
but their fights in this game, especially D1 were pretty mild? Pooky dropped it for a lot of D2/D3? I dunno if scum!him would post this while consciously not trying to replicate his T-T meta with VPB or make a giant show of it.
I'm about to fall asleep and I'll sleep on it but this post in particular is making me think Pooky is town"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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is it just Mena after all
have I effectively exhausted every avenue of paranoia around Andante/Enchant/Pooky yet before coming back to the obvious answer"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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In post 1280, VP Baltar wrote:
I do find it kind of funny that right after I point out you're not really a presence in this game and haven't even attacked me, which is highly unusual for town!pooky, you magically show up and try to play tough.In post 1205, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:cuz from what i remember of your d1 play when you get heat, you usually just tell everyone to fuck off and claim you are town and refuse to give a shit
here you're doing some real performative bendy twisty readlist that looks like you basically just pulled up isos one by one and wrote some shit out like some kid who hasn't done his homework and is busy trying to write it all out b4 the teacher shows up.
Hmm, ok ok, noted down, bear .
and these feel like VPB doesn't actually want to fight with PookyIn post 1283, VP Baltar wrote:
I can definitely be meaner. I don't think it's always very good for games when I am and I'm trying to be better about that generally.In post 1216, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:yea being nice cuz he's a scumbag
Nothing this game has really gotten me tilted though either.
I know not everyone plays scum the way I do but if I'm scum I'm ramping up the dis-associative playz at this point, not trying to throw cold water on our nice little fight we got goin. like if I were Pooky I'd be telling VPB in the scum PT to come at me"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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lmao Enchant you trickster you
He basically refused to give info the whole night and I was all set to die, and kinda had POE'd my way back to him, then he submitted his solve at the last second
Unless this is galaxy brain wifom stuff from a losing position (in which case we could still lim him tomorrow), I kinda feel like that points to Pooky?? Not gonna lie I'm really still feeling like no solve feels good or correct
Andante you think Enchant is just trying to stall the inevitable? What good does it do to troll all night and then save me at the last second?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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Dwlee a lot of my reservations with Pooky are around D1, I don't feel like he seems aligned with Baltar or MT. Have you looked at those?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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Maybe I'm a fool but I struggle to see why scum in the hood last night would save me
Andante even gave her solve before Enchant was openly refusing to give his"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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Yeah, it's just that to me they almost look like he wasn't manipulating them, if that makes sense? Like he could have distanced harder and he didn't, MT straight up ignored him, etc. It feels like an absence of necessary attempts at theater
I do want to respect Menalques point about how Pookys VPB read evaporated, though"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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yeah, I want Pooky to rock my world today with a real scumread and case"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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so scum has used 2 kills
we know they should have had at least 4 (1 at gamestart, 2 from VPB defuses, 1 from GL+Andante regardless of Andante's alignment), there's a world where Andante is scum where they have 5.
nearly certainly at least one was saved between all the protectives/JKing in the first few nights
is it worth trying to speculate what happened to the other one?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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cause I definitely don't think scum should or would be holstering shots at this point, they need to kill as many townies as they can here"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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that is the obvious answer but it doesn't actually help him, right? let's say we lim you today and you flip town, how does he not go next?
I guess if Enchant is scum he's in a tight spot no matter what so maybe I shouldn't say it's especially town-indicative, but it seems strictly worse for scum that I'm alive and conftown here than if I were dead. in the PT I was thinking it didn't matter if I flipped or not because I thought there'd be a kill tonight, but if they didn't have an NK to use then 7 alive with a conftown is way better than 6 alive. We've bought an extra miselim even if we blow up every bomb"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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honestly I was surprised people were willing to defuse the bomb, if I were them I don't think I would have done it. guess I might have a chance to find out tonight hah"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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I've reread pages 1-50 prior to Mena flip and then reread some of Enchant in ISO overnight, but haven't done a proper reread of 50+ onwards. I do want to do that during this day phase especially since I feel like I gotta really tryhard now that I'm conf"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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Hold up I found another Andante Inconsistency (if this were any other player I'd be lock tunneled on them but with Andante I guess I could see it from town...)In post 5642, Andante wrote:also, whoever that was like "all 4 maf said we elected defusers" like... why would only the maf say it?? if I see something being said here, I'll roll with it, like if yall are saying we're electing defusers, I'll say it too, doesn't make me scum, sure 3 of the maf said it, but ehhh not sure I buy that only all 4 maf said it
Dwlee check the first page of the N6 hood again. In there, on April 25th, Andante said she "loved" CSFs case about potentially all four mafia misunderstanding the set up and making the same defuser mistake, and says she thinks Mena is mafia. But then three days later, she's questioning the case and saying she doesn't buy it?
Again am I wrong to think this stuff means Andante shouldn't endgame?? Its hard for me to trust with certainty that her posts/beliefs are genuine when she 180s so dramatically without even acknowledging it"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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Actually yeah CSF you were in that hood too - Does town!Andante forget that she already agreed with you on the case just a few days ago? And forget that you were the one who said it?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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I think overall it's hard for me to ignore that 7 alive is so much better for town than 6 alive rn, it makes me think Enchant/Andante should ne off the table today"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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Also I am thinking, if you're scum expert, and you pick me to defuse and then save me, your goal would be to pocket me so hard that I let you endgame, right? If they didn't have a kill why not blow me up, I'm the only person you can plausibly blow up strictly for mech paranoia reasons. But now I'm also conftown and someone you need to kill if you want a better ELO just by the numbers. It's just really hard for me to see this as a pro scum move"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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I'm gonna do the reread but at the moment I think my main goal is gonna be to sanity check that I should be safely townreading Dwlee/CSF, and then prob vote Pooky assuming I still think those two are town. If scum!Enchant yolo saved last night that can be a 5p concern. And if scum!Andante she can't put herself as defuser tonight because I will blow her up so she has to blow up either a POE candidate or kill them if she wants to get rid of two townies tonight and we put a consensus townread as the other expert"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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We should probably think about the merits of making me expert vs not making me expert btw. Too lazy to think at all about it yet but there may be merit to the idea if we can restrict scums defuser options"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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sorry all, work this week was a lot and it's my birthday this weekend so I got some fun plans for tonight and tomorrow. I might have some time to play late late tonight (no promises though) or tomorrow morning, but otherwise probably can't really commit hardcore time to this game until Sunday at earliest.
My one game related point I can make now is -Pooky, while you are right in a vacuum that scum could go from 4->2 and win which means 7 is not as much better than 6 as it is in a normal game, you're not really accounting for the fact that scum defuse is limited to only a subset of players, townies can safely defuse anybody who hasn't defused a bomb yet which is everyone other than Andante, and scum won't have an NK every single night unless they've still got one sitting around they haven't tried to use. So your argument is a little disingenous/misleading to downplay how 7 alive w/ conftown is still strictly better than 6 here.
I would argue that correct play for townies is to blow up Andante but defuse anybody else tonight
I will say you have an okay point about it making sense from scum!Bell if he thinks I'm deep enough in his pocket to set him up to win, but also when I reread the N2 hood a while back I came away with the impression that Bell wasn't aligned with misty/VPB. I'll reread it again at some point soon but yeah I remember Bell-Misty looked fairly unaligned in particular"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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also I know I'm being Captain Buzzkill constantly harping on Andante this whole game but like, if I were town in Pooky's shoes, I really don't think I'd be anywhere near 100% townread confidence on Andante. I do feel like she's probably town, largely for the rigged bomb spec and her D1 associatives, but none of the fake guilty-ing or "bussing" (which she really didn't do this game...) are things I would say make me convinced she was town.In post 6182, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:[Assuming Andante!Town - which from the dayplay, the bussing, the faked guilties, the rigged bomb spec probably is close to 100% atp]"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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I care! I'm hear and going to be reading up and maybe finally picking up my reread again. I will look through Bell a lot more closely this go around"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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here* not hear jeez that does not bode well for how much I need to engage my brain now lmao"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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I was towncasing you in the PT and waffling between Enchant/AndanteIn post 6222, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:If GuiltyLion is in the PT claiming that he will vote for Pooky - then scum in PT have no reason to blow GLion up."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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I've already said this but to be explicitly clear, I would not blow up anyone except Andante, mainly/primarily because she already has a defuseIn post 6234, Dwlee99 wrote:Point about being able to lie about what GL said is true, but if I were in there I know I won't lie about it and so getting more time for conftown opinion seems good to me.
so if I am an expert and die and somebody claims I decided to blow up the bomb in the PT, that is a lie"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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oh I don't think I need to be an expert, I think you are right that it's actually better to shrink scum's pool of defusers by nominating two uncleared playersIn post 6243, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:
the last scum is a switcher so pretty sure they can just switch themselves into the team even if they dont get voted inIn post 6241, Enchant wrote:Depends if scum makes it in expert team and will able to blow up.
I just wanted it on record in case y'all do make me an expert that I'm not going to blow up the bomb
as for experts, I think we should go with
HEAL: Dwlee99
HEAL: Cat Scratch Fever"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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whoops, didn't mean to quote that Pooky post"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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VC 1.07
VC 1.09In post 991, Datisi wrote:
Bell,fireisredsir [4]:Menalque, Dwlee99,Malakittens
Morning Tweet [4]:Cephrir, fireisredsir, GuiltyLion, Titus
VP Baltar [3]:Frogsterking, PookyTheMagicalBear, Cat Scratch Fever
GuiltyLion [1]:Morning Tweet
Cephrir [1]:Greeting
Frogsterking [1]:StrangeMatter
StrangeMatter [1]:VP Baltar
not voting [5]:Andresvmb, Andante,catboi, The Bulge
I feel these are informative VCs, we have 4 confirmed town all voting a scum, so scum are likely maneuvering around that. Dwlee unvoting fire and moving to me is ++town I believe, as they were dismantling a counterwagon to scum. Pooky and CSF both parking their votes on VPB when there was a fair amount of suspicion on VPB through D1 are good looks. Enchant would later go on to vanity vote catboi, absolutely not a useful vote. I'm remembering that I really have not liked any of Enchant's voting behavior this entire game.In post 1268, Datisi wrote:
Morning Tweet [4]:Cephrir, fireisredsir, GuiltyLion, Titus
Bell,fireisredsir [3]:Menalque,Malakittens
VP Baltar [3]:Frogsterking, PookyTheMagicalBear, Cat Scratch Fever
GuiltyLion [2]:Morning Tweet, Dwlee99
Frogsterking [1]:StrangeMatter
StrangeMatter [1]:VP Baltar
not voting [5]:Andresvmb, Andante,catboi, Enchant,Greeting
Dwlee I don't think you should put a ton of stock into Enchant's healing everyone or suggesting to put scummy players in the initial N1 bomb expert groups. Words are cheap, Enchant didn't really do much to actually try to shove a scum into the town block so I don't think it's strong evidence for him being town."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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Later we have an Andres wagon spring up
Andante hopping on Misty wagon is +++town. keeping in mind too Tweet/Misty had the strongest scum PR. I doubt CSF is scum in this VC as well just because I rarely if ever see three scum all bloc together on a wagon like that, especially since the fire wagon still had a lot of legs, there'd be no need to push a new wagonIn post 1875, Datisi wrote:Bell,fireisredsir [5]:Menalque,Malakittens,catboi, Dwlee99
Andresvmb [5]:Frogsterking,VP Baltar, Cat Scratch Fever,Mistyx,fireisredsir
Mistyx [4]:Cephrir, GuiltyLion, Titus, Andante
PookyTheMagicalBearVP Baltar [1]:
Frogsterking [1]:StrangeMatter
Enchantcatboi [1]:
not voting [2]:Andresvmb, Greeting"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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Pooky, why are you townreading Enchant?
I am considering you town here but I don't vibe with the Bell scumread at all really. I'm going to keep doing my homework today but it feels like you pivoted to Bell when I and others indicated we thought Enchant defusing my bomb was a townie action. I would think if you are town Enchant would be the first person I'd flip so I want to understand what prompted you to rule him out"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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Part of the reason I can't ever feel truly good about a Pooky townread is thisIn post 2187, Datisi wrote:Menalque, PookyTheMagicalBear, Cat Scratch Fever, Cephrir - group 2 bomb experts
VP Baltar - group 2 bomb defuser
why would scum!VPB put himself in a hood with four townies one of whom has been scumreading and voting him all day
it just seems like it makes much more sense in the world where Pooky is scum and can decide to either:
1. blow up VPB and reap towncred for it all game
or
2. if consensus seems like they want to defuse, roll with consensus to make sure his buddy lives and gets a defuse"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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also, what do we think scum was informed of via Mala's role? The only thing I can think would make sense is the existence of (probably) 4 protectives"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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I've been reading pages 50-90 but barely gleaned anything useful from it, a lot of the thread energy during that time is dead players sorting fire/Andres
Gonna take a break now but be back later"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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lol wait until you can read last night's hood, I tried to get Andante to explain this several times and she wouldn'tIn post 6448, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:Andante when you get back, can you explain how you went from dwlee is scum at the end of day 4 to VPB is scum at the beginning of day 5?
Spoiler:
it is my single biggest question mark with her, I truly don't understand how or why she evolved from SRing Dwlee to hard claiming a (fake) inno result on them overnight after Strange flipped town"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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I should have time to keep rereading today, would appreciate no random hammers
I am still ultimately leaning Pooky I think, the Bell case is just not convincing, but I need to review N2 hood again and also read D3
I think CSF's points for town!Enchant are alright, I forgot about the dumbtell around the scum 4 defuse wincon"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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what's weird is we have this knot of people in the POE townreading eachother
Pooky seems convinced it's Bell, no suspicion of Enchant/Andante
Bell seems convinced it's Pooky, no suspicion of Enchant/Andante
Andante was pushing Enchant, TRs Pooky virtually no suspicion there
Enchant thinks ... ??
why is whoever is town in this group so convinced they have it right when I am finding decent reasons to doubt a scumread on everybody"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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like even if Pooky is scum he's right that Bell has kinda just been like "It's Pooky, here's why I'm town, I don't need to engage with anything else"
every now and then there are Pooky posts that feel town
why are we assuming scum wouldn't go into N1 rigging a bomb with 2T and 1S and then bussing Andante for their own associative gain? are we sure that's completely out of the realm of possibility? Andante also asked why so many people were healing her throughout D1"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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unless you wanted to like, bus Misty and WIFOM argue that scum rigged it so therefore you're town
which is not how they played it so I don't think that happened here, but probably would have been worth considering as a scumteam"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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I think I really just need to get over the inexplicable Andante "Dwlee conf scum" -> "Dwlee town I have an inno" progression but it's just so hard for me lol"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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IIRC Enchant pushed back pretty strongly against limming Misty over Dwlee/VPB at the time but I need to actually reread that sectionIn post 6509, Dwlee99 wrote:Yea that plan came about once VP blew up Andres and it was clear he hoped to argue we were both town through Mistyx's flip"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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btw I'm gonna try to continue the reread after work maybe 3-4 hours from now"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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I got through 95-125 before my eyes started glazing over and fatigue hit me
again nothing that really stood out to me as worth dregging up and talking about
I think my overall impression is that there are bits and conversations where Enchant, Andante, Bell all feel genuinely unaligned with VPB. The biggest thing standing out to me is an absence of any serious direct interactions between VPB and Pooky in a way that he has with most other players. I know earlier I said I felt one point in Pooky's favor was that his associatives don't look like they're trying to not look associated, but when I'm getting deep into Real Game Content in D3 and I still don't have a sense that Pooky has really talked with any of the scum in any meaningful fashion, it starts to stick out a lot worse
I still need to reread the N2 hood again"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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In post 2955, Enchant wrote:
We can lim Pooky and if scum, then lim Baltar.In post 2945, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:or if we policy blow him up at 4th defusal, we have 0 chance of losing
if VPB is town, we reset to 0 defusals for scum and we get three more defusals with no worries.
if VPB is scum, we just policy bomb everyone and dare the scumbags to try to win
Why not indeed.
this I thought pointed pretty strongly away from scum!EnchantIn post 2956, VP Baltar wrote:Why you avoiding the mala wagon enchant?
far easier for me to see this as scum trying to throw some shade on a townie for the upcoming red flip rather than scum coaching/distancing a buddy to vote the other one
like I get that the latter happens on occasion, but this is so direct it'd be really clumsy if it was theater, and so immediately after Enchant was calling out a potential Pooky-Baltar associative"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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Actually, there was this one thing that I did want to bring up
Andres posts using the lack of NK in his defense of his doctor claim, speculating on why there wasn't oneIn post 2599, Andresvmb wrote:In post 2597, VP Baltar wrote:
Let's assume you are town, why do you think there was such a frenzy for the fire wagon yesterday as soon as your wagon took off a little bit?In post 2596, Andresvmb wrote:I also noted that I wouldn’t have needed to claim to get me through yesterday, and then make myself a target by swapping myself into the PT. As a strategic decision, attracting heat when I had weathered the storm yesterday and gotten a claim out (if I were Scum) didn’t seem sensible, but you all have to judge that.I am Town. I claimed Doctor and there was no NK yesterday. Do you think the Scum held back from firing? Has anyone stepped forward to explain in a different way why there was no extra kill? Like I really can’t make this easier for you.
Scum sometimes push alternative wagons, and after my claim (and some clear resistance from multiple players against executing me), they probably felt they needed to push elsewhere. Frog still tried to bury me by ridiculing my claim. But they couldn’t get traction so they pushed fire relying on a flawed argument from catboi who was clearly trying their best and had a reasonable argument.
Like you can’t fault me for thinking the arguments against fire were reasonable and not argue against all of the other players that also landed there. I’m not hiding and saying I don’t own my vote I do. But you asked me what I relied on for it and when I tell you you say it’s bullshit. Well, it is what it is.
Andante posts throwing suspicion at Pooky and the weirdness of VPB/Pooky N1 hood defuseIn post 2601, Andante wrote:I find it interesting how Mena's recap of the hood is so different from the others... like,I've been kinda suspicious of pooky, and that's where in a T/T world with VP and Pooky, I assumed VP was going to die last night, but now I'm wondering why scum!Pooky would save a town!VP, the sudden weird "yeah let's heal DW!!" yesterday honestly could just be pooky scum for why it seemed so odd to me, idk!!! but both Ceph and CSF gave off Pooky towny, then Mena is like "yeah pooky wasn't towny" so ehhh idk!!!
I'm LAUGHING so hard at frogster's claim... "all I have to do is live till day 5 to prove myself!!" you had no care about catboi living till D2 to prove himself... so why would you have till d5??
everyone has checked in, can frogster go bye bye now?
VPB comments and mixes up the two players. He is responding to Andres but then sees Andante's post in p-edit and assumes she is Andres. He isIn post 2603, VP Baltar wrote:
Eh, not really what I asked you. I asked you to explain your vote on fire, as in what did you find scummy? And you basically said "well catboi wanted it and I trusted him," which of course looks to me like you're putting it on a dead player.In post 2599, Andresvmb wrote:Like you can’t fault me for thinking the arguments against fire were reasonable and not argue against all of the other players that also landed there. I’m not hiding and saying I don’t own my vote I do. But you asked me what I relied on for it and when I tell you you say it’s bullshit. Well, it is what it is.
It definitely is what it is. What I am trying to assess is whether you found fire scummy or just wanted to save yourself, which doesn't even necessarily make you scum.
The biggest thing that points to you being scum is the sheer speed that people powered that wagon through based on catbois case. I was there and didn't even have time to fully read his case before people ended it!
As far as the lack of NK, I have no idea, but in your world pooky should be lock town, yeah?very quickto say Pooky should be lock town and downplay Andante's reasonable suspicion, seemingly making no effort to stop and think about why town!Andres would be shading his own potential-doc save, instead just leaping at an opportunity to imply Pooky should be lock town and it's scummy for 'Andres' to think otherwise.
He catches his mistakeIn post 2604, VP Baltar wrote:Lol oh that pedit was andante not andres
Andante is confusedIn post 2606, Andante wrote:why should pooky be lock town to me?
There was 30 minutes between his previous spurt of rapid fire posting and this post where he explains it. I feel this is also a bit over-explainy, obviously when you're scum and you make mistakes like this you feel a lot of pressure to explain your mix up. I know regardless of Pooky's alignment he probably felt nerves to hand wave his mistake/lack of close reading - which we know was ultimately due to him being scum bullshitting a push on a town!Andres - buuuut in my head I am just getting a sense that part of the tense/nerves of the situation was he was trying to 'lock-town' Pooky to a player who had no reason to lock-town Pooky. He doesn't even give his own read on Pooky during this exchange which I would sort of expect from town in this situation, even if he were just talking to Andres.In post 2628, VP Baltar wrote:
Ignore that part. It is pretty coffee times here and I saw "and***" In the pedit going after pooky right after andres was taking town cred for stopping a NK on pooky so I was like "OH NO HE DIDNT"....but it was I who cannot read!In post 2606, Andante wrote:why should pooky be lock town to me?
I dunno if I explained this well as it's late and I am tired, but def caught my eye on reread"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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anyway yeah tomorrow I wanna reread
N2 hood w/ Bell
N4 hood w/ Pooky
VPB going down D5 - I remember a loooottt of potential anti-associative with Dwlee here and I wanna make sure it doesn't ping me on reread as too orchestrated just as a sanity check
but yeah, ultimately still leaning Pooky I think"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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probably because entering the day it was a 50/50 between Dwlee and VPB as for who blew up AndresIn post 6563, Andante wrote:I wanna know why Dwlee entered the day with that giant page case on VP tbh... like, I don't think they've done it for anyone else, and VP not pushing Dwlee like at all was odd"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"- GuiltyLion
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivor
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he/him- Survivor
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- Posts: 12369
- Joined: August 19, 2015
- Pronoun: he/him
- Location: Seattle, WA
what's with the AtEIn post 6562, Andante wrote:I believe you're town. but my thoughts don't matter sooo
your thoughts obviously matter, however it's hard for me to understand and evaluate your perspective when you don't explain any of your reads, why do you have Pooky town or Enchant scum?? Your whole argument for Enchant scum is POE because Pooky/Bell are town so "it's that simple", but then your argument for why Pooky is town has never been explained?? You haven't responded to several anti-associative tells for Enchant posted by Dwlee, CSF,andmyself. why do you expect us to take a simple "POOKY IS TOWN HERE" post seriously when the rest of us are spending hours of our time rereading the entire game, meanwhile you won't even explain the mindset behind your own posts (re: Dwlee read change)
and speaking of the 180s, you even did one on Pooky tooIn post 5048, Andante wrote:I'm definitely thinking Pooky is maf. not gonna lie - GuiltyLion
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