Application of WOTC

[Frozen Angel]

ego from my main

[Frozen Angel]

ahhh its simple. Its just rude!

I'm really not ok with the whole thing , but that might be just me. I don't want to argue over something I won't ever implement or use myself and when I'm not really ok with the whole point of its existence.

[Frozen Angel]

I'm not saying you , who used WOTC as an option mod suggested you, were being rude to someone else or mod is rude for putting that option in signup is rude

I'm saying the whole WOTC Philosophy and core is rude. It makes us all look like a bunch of 10 years old children who can't play with each other. We are not children anymore!

I do think its everyone right for having a blacklist and to want for avoiding others. This applies to mods as well who want to see their games more fun - cause they put effort in building them. Its just not nice to exile others this way; We are humans and we proved we can be civilized enough to talk and resolve issues by trading and applying some sort of order in our lifes!

I talked to much I guess bye for tonight!

[Frozen Angel]

the idea that it is "ok to have a blacklist" but that it's childish to want someone out of a game you're in is contradictory

WOTC and all variants of it are designed specifically for enforcing "blacklists"

nah your not getting it

you saw children playing with each other? sometime they just throw one of them out of the game cuase they think their not funto play with. Thats WOTC.

What is the more civilized manner? to avoid the game yourself or to contact the player - not the mod - about the problem you have with them.

I do believe WOTM is completely ok as everyone is ok for having a blacklist. we all have our blacklists in RL and mods can make sure some people they hate won't be in the games their designing for strangers over web. and players are ok for having blacklist but they must enforce it themselves without putting a middleman as an enforcer.

But then as I said I really don't care if others continue doing this. I won't ever implement it or use it in any manner though.

[Frozen Angel]

in other words "the enforcing method is rude" in my opinion. not the users , nor the mod and I'm not saying the fact a kind of enforcement must be done in some scenarios is wrong.

[Frozen Angel]

WOTC (and its variants) and its variants are about getting a player you don't want to play with out of a game. PMing a player directly about issues wouldn't necessarily achieve this

also no one who knowingly joins a game after another player should have any right to use WOTC (and its variants)

plus people in general are little bitches and WOTC provides them an outlet to avoid direct conflict resolution

I'm not convinced and I really don't think there is anything you can say to convince me

you can continue doing your uncivilized enforcement method. I'm ok with mine. someone is bitch and won't out the game you inned first even though their on your blacklist? I won't play that game. I have no right for having that game - at least no more than them. I was just faster in joining. They have no problem with us that their inned after us. Now its our problem to reason with them and resolve our conflict or just avoid the game. asking mod to exile a player cuase you don't like them is not an acceptable manner.

[Frozen Angel]

the people who complain about WOTC are the people who it happens to and, well, look at the people who have complained about it, i guess...

what a pitiful response ... such a ...

no , I never got wotc'ed before just so you now , and I'm not afraid for getting wotc'd. I told all these stuff about WOTC the first time I saw it happened 8 months ago when I was playing my first games on site.

"and just look at the people who are complaining about it?" Just tell who are you talking about! jeez. Yes I was out of control during our last game. I have personality disorder, I was even confined in an asylum 2 years ago , I did try to suicide before .I have issues; and I was at 6th month of pregnancy when we played that game. I do applogize for my behavior there.

Anyway I don't consider you someone worthy enough for me to waste my time to even argue about whats right and whats not. and I'm fine to be blacklisted by you (and respectfully you are blacklisted by me) see? we don't need WOTC. its already resolved, isn't it? If anytime I joined a game where you were in before me and I didn't notice just pm me and I will out very reasonably. and I know you don't care that I consider you worthy enough - so you don't consider me worthy enough to argue about anything with me as well.

so why are you arguing with me?

edit :and just for completing this ,If your interested why I don't consider you worthy enough we may have a private communication about that, But I doubt it.

[Frozen Angel]

the reasoning behind not making it public is something like "it creates more drama" but then you get threads like this where people who have been WOTCd or are close to someone who has been WOTCd whine about how bad a system it is

tbh i don't really think it matters - do you think people choose not to play with others for no reason? if not, then do you honestly think the people who get WOTCd don't understand why it happened? i mean, maybe there's some naive people who really don't understand why others might not want to play with them but the vast majority of people who get WOTCd know exactly why it's happening. it's why they use alts to avoid it and shit...

really, the only issues with WOTC are actually non-issues - nobody should ever get WOTCd by a player who knowingly joined a game after them and really no one who gets WOTCd doesn't know why it happened. they've probably been told by multiple people what their issues are already anyway...

Then don't make more

I'm not talking in this position becuase I'm in danger of wotc or whetever the fuck you want to push. stop making that pitiful comment ,k?

yes I am a horrible person. I suck but my POV is not related to the state I'm in. This was my pov from way before even knowing who the fuck were you.

Player A is not nice to play with and player B don't want to play with them anymore

I said I'm ok with this part. That is resonable. That is FINE. Thats player B's right.

The way they enforce this (WOTC) is what I have complaints against. Player B is in game X , and player A joins it. That means player A has no issues with player B , now its on player B to decide if they want to give it another try or get out of the unpleasant situation. Player B has no right to get player A's chance for playing the game ; how horrible player A might be. If player A broke any rules; site moderation system will ban them and prevent them from playing the games. If not thats just player B's personal opinion about Player A.

Now you may say thats not fair as player A is the bad one. who are you to judge the bad one?

[Frozen Angel]

asking mod to exile a player cuase you don't like them is not an acceptable manner.

I take issue with this part here. It's not that I don't like Yume. I don't know her. For all I know, she's a cool person to hang out with, have a beer with and shoot the shit. I don't know. Maybe, maybe not.

What I DO know is that she's toxic to play with. Now if Mith came and presented an amazing "My Little Princess" Mafia that I've been /inned for a year because of a long queue and I've been so excited about forever, should I have to /out because Yume decided to join in?

Fuck that.

Seriously.

definitly not! ask yume that you blacklisted her or reasons X , Y , Z and you don't want to play with her anymore until those gets resolved. tell her that you were before her in this game and wait for her to leave.

If she didn't leave then she is being unreasonable. now you might bring this problem to mod and mod might use whatever enforcer methods he might want.

[Frozen Angel]

i mean, i "oppose" it in the sense id never use it and i think it's a stupid way of dealing with issues you have with someone

but really, the people who complain about it fall into one of two camps - those who live in an alternate reality or are deluded enough to think everyone can get along with everyone else and those who are personally affected (they or someone they're close to got WOTCd)

my issue that I mentioned before is that I was seeing everyone as my enemy and I can't see people freindly - which is way better nowdays.

I am not complaining about the blacklisting , I am just saying you need to be decent enough to talk about your issues with the person you have issues with before using any enforcement methods and these methods if any must be public so the accuesed person can defend or talk with the people who has problem with him/her directly.

It might cuase drama yes. but its fair.

[Frozen Angel]

If she didn't leave then she is being unreasonable. now you might bring this problem to mod and mod might use whatever enforcer methods he might want

This is WOTC/WOTM

WOTM is reasonable since the start moment of signing up as mod is the owner of the game.

I am saying WOTC is not reasonable before talking with the person you have issues with and is being unreasonable by joining the game you asked them not to and as a hidden method for outing others.

[Frozen Angel]

only people who oppose WOTC are awful people to play with

BTW

nice one hiplop!

to just kick me in the middle of the conversion without getting involved with it at all! I owe you one

[Frozen Angel]

no one! tell them they are not playing the games and their ruing the fun

ask mod to add them as specter if that suffice.

IF this is about Yume , Yes I am aware. she is a friend of mine as zmuffin said , but even me don't really like to play mafia with her (she was playing mafia before me). and she is pretty much unreasonable about joing new games. I'm sure she was banned from joining more than 2 games or something and thats pretty much acceptable ban for her. I'm not defending her. mods have any rights to stop her from joining their games.

I was talking about WOTC in general sense not in my friends case. You can't out someone from what they have as much as rights about as you do, you need to try to reason with them first , if its not working and there is no way to make peace , mod must make a judgement call about it.

[Frozen Angel]

The same point I made can be applied for all of the playerlists in the game so the same applies to WOTC as well. everyone has equal right to achieve a slot in a game - unless moderator restrict some players - This is the principle I have and its what I call fair in this topic which you have a different opinion on and whoever uses WOTC and WOTO thinks that way. When we don't have the same principles we can't argue about the foundations logically.

it's really up to the individual moderators, not you, how they feel about it.

That I agree with and I told it multiple times. When I moderate , I won't apply these methods - but as I said WOTM in my opinion is totally reasonable so I might make judgement calls as moderator to make game omfortable for the rest of playerlists. When others moderate I'm just a player who - according to the princple I mentioned above - can only talk with other players about my issues and if that didn't work resolve them by asking the mod to make a judgement call or by leaving the game. If other mods use wotc or wotm that's not them being rude (eventhough the methods themselves are rude in my opinion) and I as player will surrender to others will (and thats not making the other players rude as well for using an ability mod gave them)

[Frozen Angel]

I am just saying you need to be decent enough to talk about your issues with the person you have issues with before using any enforcement methods

I'm not sure why you're assuming this hasn't happened in virtually every case.

These things don't happen in a vacuum.

once I saw mod asking players if they have issues with X express them privately (after first request). without informing even who was the ones requesting that the person got wotced. We wondered for weeks who were the three people wotcing in that friendly playerlist and we didn't figure it out.

It happens in vacuum sometimes and its just awful. some players just confirm they have problems with X and people like X to help the first WOTC'er out.

@shadoweh ,can you please show me a case when it happened completely privately without the players being informed that some are wotcing? I'm curios to see one example for that. That seems more fair cause it happens only in very rare circumstances.

[Frozen Angel]

I'm tired and I really don't enjoy talking about this.

its just another topic that you all right about and I am wrong about by your definitions of right and wrong and we won't ever reach a unified conclusion about it and will just make me angry and exhausted and will give me a headache.

use your methods! I don't care really!

I love you all. good night

[Frozen Angel]

WoTC should be a thing but it should also be considered extremely rude to WoTC someone without first sending them a PM saying 'hey I don't want you in this game for reasons X Y and Z please leave it.'

thank you!

[Frozen Angel]

I was trying with all my potential to say the same thing !

[Frozen Angel]

WoTC should be a thing but it should also be considered extremely rude to WoTC someone without first sending them a PM saying 'hey I don't want you in this game for reasons X Y and Z please leave it.'

Yeah, the only reason not to do this is because it starts drama and stuff where people go back and forth at each other in the public forums which is already been to cause bans before, so its not like this "unspoken rule" really does more but make the drama happen elsewhere.

The drama still exists even if you try to sweep it under the rug.

Your insulting that player if not . What your suggesting is unfair , not-in-person judging them without letting them being informed about their accusations.

Its simpler. It won't make any kinds of arguments but its stupidly unfair and obviously rude as fuck!

[Frozen Angel]

We are all adults here.

I don't think this is true, and I'm not talking about how many scummers have reached the age of majority.

Ooooh Buuuurn! XD

I keep wanting to pun this into "Elbirn" but can't figure out how.

But seriously, imagine what would happen if you were excited to play some game, but then some arse like me drew my long pointy nose to bear down on you and pointed an accusatory finger, loudly proclaiming that YOU SUCK on a substantial societal level. You would probably get remarkably pissed off and start a war of words that no one else wants to deal with. At least if I were saying this as the game's mod, I'd have some authority to do something about it (in not letting you play the game), whereas if I were some random other player I would have no power over you that could stop you from saying "then get your own game and leave me alone".

That's why I think it's best for the players to privately take their grievances to the mod and let them decide.

I won't ever play with that mod and player list ever again cause I count that secrecy a direct insult to me and my wit.

Ok , yes it will cause drama. Are you saying cause it might cause drama, we must just complain about how bad someone else is and accuse them and get their right for joining the game without even telling them why? and without even telling them who we are?

assume courts do this. There won't be any fights in courthouses anymore. Noone will now who is the accuser and what are they accused of. That is beautiful isn't it? No drama. Everything will be in its rightful place.

or not?

How dare you take someones right for joining a game without telling them why? That is not even cowordish... its not being human.

[Frozen Angel]

sorry for aggression.

Its just that I'm this solidified and tunneled vision in my opinion in this matter. Take my opinion or leave it. After all neither I know you , nor you know me. We are just a bunch of starngers talking in the internet about whats just and whats not.

Its completely ok to not achieving same conclusion and having different correct views with paradoxes on the same matter.

I'm not trying to offend anyone . not in my last post nor in any other posts I did in this thread.

[Frozen Angel]

that is way better than resolving it privatly

your assuming the wotc'ed person is a sheep not a human being

[Frozen Angel]

This is enough

Also IME most people who dislike someone enough to blacklist them have either told this to them previously or seen multiple people they respect tell this to them. Post 95 is correct in practice.

This is redicolous.

Your arguning about something being just or not with me and you guys can't really stop insulting my understanding.

For the last time : No I never got wotc'ed. I am in some people blacklists though but they are in mine as well.

Let me give you an example. during one of the games I had , my mother passed away, and my activity level decreased in a game. Me and my mther got insulted and I got accuesd that I'm using RL excusses for lurking. I blacklisted that person for a long time. since like a moth ago when he tried to join a game I was in. I messaged that person asked him to leave and the return message was his appology for previous behavior.

And I forgave him. And I played that game and I let him play my game after that point.

Is there any darker colors than black? What is worst than getting insulted right after your mother funeral?

This is what it is. You are responsible for your problems with others. You must explain them to them - follow those problem - see if you can resolve them or not. If you reached this agreement to stay away from each other but the other person is being unreasonable You may use a middle man - in this case moderators - if not the current wotc is like running toward your mother and asking her to punish the bad boy who you have a problem with. You think it must be this way cuase we have minors in here? I'm sure this approach is not even considered just by 10 years old forward.

If you want to take someones right for joining a game (cause if their not banned or WOTM'ed by mod they have that right) You must resolve this issue with them directly or in a public manner - whatever is your choice.

back to the insults coming toward me. yes I might not be fun to play with. Whats your point? Are you saying cause I'm not fun to play with my idea about WOTC is wrong? Are you saying cause I'm arguing its not just for being handled privately (not in justified manner privately) I'm not fun to play with? Or are you stating that I'm an absolute peace of trash, better being ignored and thrown away inside a trash can and throwing it away in the middle of ocean - cause i am that peace o trash

I have the bravery to accept that though. Do you have the bravery to accept your wrong?

For the record I see some justice in a Completely private WOTC as well , where people who are not informed who is woting who , wotc the same person for same reason. But that's just imaginary I persume. who use that? Show me an example please.

[Frozen Angel]

It's almost like the moderator is. .moderating.

That is ok. Moderators can choose whatever enforcer method they want at the end. I accept and respect this.

The rest of the argument is about these enforcer methods justification. I do beleive WOTM is totally justified , the rest have some problem which can be fixed if

1 - every player who has a problem must try to directly resolve this issue with the other one cause if that other player is joining the game your in that means they don't have any problems with you (Its not two sided) so your responsible for the issue you have
2 - judging a more serious accusation (which can't get resolved privately) must be done publicly or at least the accused person must be informed about the whole story and the identity of the accusers.

They are arguning that this will cuase drama and I totally agree with that. Can we remove drama's and fights in courthouses? no cause the accused have the right to know what are the accusations and why are their getting exiled and loosing something which is their right.

[Frozen Angel]

Again this will only backfire at me

no one is going to argue logically with me , all you will do next is to say "This is for the best!" and "only morons like you will argue about it being wrong"

so there is that. I got my answer, if its any of the above without proper reasoning don't bother yourself for writing them down please. That way I won't be forced to waste my time writing about my POV again and again and you will help me and yourselves a lot.

[Frozen Angel]

Thats WOTM and perfectly fine and just

[Frozen Angel]

show me a fully annonymous wotc accountant.

the current meta of wotc is like this : player a pm's mod player b shouldnt play beacuase of x and y. mod announces there is a request for wotcing player b, if anyone else gas issues pm me. player c and d tell mod they have issues as well and b will be outed.

its wrong becuase :
- the reasons never got public
- player b dont know who are the accusers
- players c and d had no sirious issues with player b before mod ask them anout it.

so in my opinion :
- it must be either fully hidden or completly public
- player b must be notified about the accusations and the accusers

[Frozen Angel]

>.>

read my posts since the start and tell me if I was sying anything else?

[Frozen Angel]

1) I'm not supporting public shaming. I'm saying player B must know the resons. Don't tell it publikly in queue thread. But you shouldn't hide that detail from the accused and exiled player.

2) Its not something the accusers must have a talk about. Player B is getting judged and punished and he has every right to know why. You wanna prevent drama? Can you prevent drama in a ourthouse by not telling the accused what are them accused of? sure you can but its wrong.

3) They pm'ed the mod about it after mod reminded them. Their just supporting a case they think is on player B and want to support the WOTC becuase it might be legit and they don't want their game ruined. I saw someone getting woted in a player list who didn't know him mainly - can you explain why such a thing might happen? If it was totally private then multiple people reahed the same onlousion about Player B and that might, "MIGHT" means their case is legit.

As I said I am ok with enforcers. WOTM , Blaklisting , whatever ... WOTC is working. but don't fix what ain't broken? Thats wrong here cuase I'm talking about justifiations and human rights and thats what is not in the current meta of WOTC. Remember your taking someones right to play a game. Its like caliming a land is yours. we can do that in a barbaric manner or in a civilized approach.

[Frozen Angel]

This is a form of human societies.

If they know that already, what is the harm in telling them again? beside showing your not extremely rude and coward.

[Frozen Angel]

This is a form of human societies.

If they know that already, what is the harm in telling them again? beside showing your not extremely rude and coward.

Because it gives them something to latch on and argue and drama llama about

That what happens in human societies when you sentence someone. To avoid that you may have general rules for further (more crucial) punishments.

[Frozen Angel]

thanks for response.

1. As I multiple time said I said there is nothing against the mods or players who are doing games in WOTC manner. Plus as I said WOTM is not even ok but is just as well. Using WOT as it is has no issues by its own. Its an enforcer method and beuase its "modoray" is ompletly fine. My argument is about it being justified as well or not - I mean Doing it as it is , is not illegal ! My argument is doing it as it is , is rude!

2. Its not about the game or the way people sign up for it. Do you agree everyone has equal right for joining games? I do beleive whoever mod don't ban has equal right for joining the games. Now what gives the right to players for outing another player? WOTC will do that. applying WOTC means giving the right of banning to players. Now if you let them do it in the manner it is right now, Your letting them do it rude! thats what I'm trying to say.

3. I don't want to know what was its reason. show me a game when mod never ommuniated with players about the ongoing wotc and multiple players wotc'ed a player in the same time.
I do beleive its a bit more justified than what it is right now.

4. Are you trying to use examples to show how onstrutive might a WOTC be? uase if thats your agenda I must disapoint you. I know how onstrutive an enforement might be. I have no issues with applying enforcements on a player list. All I'm saying is that you Must tell the person your applying these enforemnets on why they got outed. WOTM is understandable as it means "Mod doesn't like you!" Its simple as that. no further explanation is needed as its that person's game and no one else's.

In WOTC however , Mods are the middle man. It is a Courthouse and mods are the judge in there. Yes the jury might find the aused guilty and he will go to prison for that! (get exiled from the game in this case) and its definitly onstrutive for him. Its just rude to have a hidden ourt when the accused is not informed suh a thing is going on and suddenly announce : Your out of the game cause some players hate you. Thats just rude!

If they already told that person they will blaklist / wotc them for reasons A , B , D then its ok! why they want to hide their identities and reasons now?!

The only reason someone hides something is for others to not figure it out. and Thats the rude thing.

and when I'm saying hidding I mean hidding from the accused person. the wjole process might be hidden from public and that part is totally fine.

[Frozen Angel]

FA
If people were reasonable enough to not /in for your games after youve told them not to you most likely wouldnt have blacklisted them in the first place
Not everyone is reasonable, therefore you do need a way to forcibly kick them out when they dont understand

(still at FA)

I think your issue is actually not WOTC itself, but that when you blacklist someone you should inform them of it rather than saying nothing and just anonymously WOTC the person out of games. In which case I agree with you.

But I don't know if anonymous WOTC without any prior notice really happens that often, does it?

and I thought I overed this in my other posts. sorry if it seemed like I ignored them

I know there is a need for enforcers.They must exist cause people do what people do! but we must do the right thing and thats trying to resolve issues at first and then applying enforers in a manner that is totally understandable for the accused.

and yeah that is what I'm saying. My issue is not WOTC itself but the manner its getting used right now. and I saw it happened in my less than 1 year on site twice. Its just the current meta of WOTC as far as I can see.

[Frozen Angel]

first : your no better than the people you alled trash then cause you dare to judge them as a trash in this manner.

second : no its not necessary to be rude. applying order is not being rude. you can either do something or do it right.

[Frozen Angel]

not intending to offend just to remind you

you can't call a bumch of people trash for being wotc'ed from a mafia game. You certainly can't and thats just too much.

[Frozen Angel]

no its definitely not

if you want to insult them , then there are more direct and better ways for doing it.

WOTC is an enforcer method punishing players for some bothering behaviors they might have and to keep the game safe from those types of behavior.

If you look at that as a method for insulting others then the whole argument I had is meaningless and the way I'm looking at you is changed forever.

[Frozen Angel]

is marquis a trash?

or yume?

you know your diretly insulting a quarter of mafia sum players who got woted/ or wotm'ed or whatevered once or twice?

is everyone who get banns a trash? uase if thats the case I am a trash in your mind as well cause I did got banned once.

ok your god? How dare you all people trash in this manner?

putting this aside. no they are human and they are definietly not trash. They have their rights, alling them trash is totally understandable from the one who wants to deny previous fact. and they have total rights to be informed why and by what kinds of "trashes" are they getting accused and banned.

now tell me your logi please. that they have to be logially trash

[Frozen Angel]

sorry for lack of C's in my posts. C button of my keybord is working one in every 10 times.

[Frozen Angel]

summarizing my last post

"who the fuck are you to judge someone and deciding if someone is trash or not?"

answer this and we shall continue this discusion

[Frozen Angel]

WOTM is definitly acceptable in any manner

read my posts k? I mean I told this 1000000 times thar mod can just say get out of my game! i didn't like the way you inned. and its OK!

but mods give the chance to players for doing this instead of them using WOTC. Now the story differs! It is still modocrasy cause a mod is judging the whole situation but that certain action (throwing "trash" players out - as you seem to like to insult them - (shrugs!)) is a democracy.

Now players must do it completely publicly when accused can answer or completely privately when noone knows what other judge thinks so the judgemnets are not influenced by each other.

Thats nore justified than the current meta.

now back to trash, no marquis was not a trash. He had a bad habbit and was repeatedly showing a bad behavior.

people who get baned for role violations are not trash! You can't insult people like this.

Yume is definietky not a trash. She is a great person. She do a bad thing - lurking in games - but that doesn't make her trash! You can use a more appliable term ....

[Frozen Angel]

Remember that it is not I who decides. I have never WOTCed a person in my life. But when many people WOTC someone, they are all calling that person trash implicitly. If you oppose this, you oppose WOTC.

They are saying that they don't like to play with that person. Their not calling them trash though.

and yes I don't like wotc at all but thats just my personal opinion. the rest of my argument is about making it at least justified.

[Frozen Angel]

making accusations public will make the enviroment softer for them?

are you kidding me

[Frozen Angel]

FA, WOTC is WOTM.

WOTC can't go through without moderator consent. It's just WOTM, with the mod seeking advice from others. Even putting that aside, there's nothing wrong with players judging and kicking each other out. The "accused" has no right to anything, including knowing the accusations made against them or having their judges not influence each other. If they don't like this, they should try being not toxic.

ITS NOT

see when WOTM mod says X and Y can't play my game and its ok and justified cuase the game is in Moderator's property!

now if WOTC happens with current meta

mod says if players tell me X must be thrown out they will be thrown out. Its democrasy and its totally ok for everyone by its own. but its not just!

I'm saying this ok thing is a rude way for applying this, for it not being rude you must respect that X who you call "trash"'s wit and tell them why their getting banned from the game.

You calling them trash is the reason you can't see the rest of my argument. That is a way for looking at the word though. and I hate that POV. Its fine anyway. noone said we can acheive one solid answer when we're talking about human rights and justifications of certain ations.

[Frozen Angel]

making accusations public will make the enviroment softer for them?

are you kidding me

YES

they will use it as an opportunity to defend themselves and start arguments

Just eliminate quickly and efficiently without mentioning too many reasons.

then let them start arguments. Are you afraid for being wrong?

[Frozen Angel]

then don't use the term.

call their behavior unacceptable.

yes all the enforcers are to call their bahaviors unacceptable

[Frozen Angel]

Both are ok. The game is moderator's property so they can ban whoever they want for whatever they want.

The second is ok and definitly justified cuase the accused knows what might went worng. If players A , B and C pm the mod sepratly - whithout any circular or other methods of commuinication - that they don't like player D's avatar. Its totally justified to out player D.

The unjustified versions of the above : "I got pm's from the people and your out!" "someone(player B) told me they have problem with player D. Who has problne as well?"

[Frozen Angel]

making accusations public will make the enviroment softer for them?

are you kidding me

YES

they will use it as an opportunity to defend themselves and start arguments

Just eliminate quickly and efficiently without mentioning too many reasons.

then let them start arguments. Are you afraid for being wrong?

NO

I am afraid we will have the goddamn community cluttered up with arguments spouted by idiots who can't accept that they are so bad multiple people want to never play with them ever again

Then do it totally privatly so the accusers don't have any kinds of impact on each other. or publickly inform the involved instead of everyone.

again you called them idiot, who are you to judge someone as idiot. a mod? ok then don't let the so called "idiot" to your game. your a player? shut up!

[Frozen Angel]

Why are you so fixated on being justified in your actions? Nobody needs to justify anything. That's the beauty of it.

ok

thats the beauty of what?

thats the basic Principle of humanity that we need to justify our actions to each other. Are you saying we're a bunch of wild animals playing mafia in here?

[Frozen Angel]

What is wrong with announcing that a player has been WOTCed and asking if anyone else has a problem?

That has direct impact of the numbers of people who will try to wotc that people.

[Frozen Angel]

What is wrong with announcing that a player has been WOTCed and asking if anyone else has a problem?

I think it's fine if the reasons are included, and if the offending player can appeal it by sending a PM to the mod

This ^

if the reasons are included then they will judge the reason not the player

and thats not WOTC by its defiition. its a jury-like method for enforcing people - and that must require majority of the remaining players vote at least to be justified

[Frozen Angel]

Then do it totally privatly so the accusers don't have any kinds of impact on each other. or publickly inform the involved instead of everyone.

again you called them idiot, who are you to judge someone as idiot. a mod? ok then don't let the so called "idiot" to your game. your a player? shut up!

Why?! Why is it so bad to let accusers influence each other? If I want X kicked, I want to convince everyone else to agree to kick him as well. Why am I not allowed to judge other players as a player?

Cuase thats not WOTC

your saying if 3 people has problem with A , A must be outed. 3 don't have problem . 1 has some problem , 2 are confirming thats reasonable.

its not the thing you first defined.

[Frozen Angel]

That's not a principle of humanity. I can do anything and not have to justify shit to anyone! Nobody has the right to demand that I reveal my inner thought processes.

You can kill me right now and they will hang you tommorow.

you don't need to justufy shit to anyone?

[Frozen Angel]

What is wrong with announcing that a player has been WOTCed and asking if anyone else has a problem?

I think it's fine if the reasons are included, and if the offending player can appeal it by sending a PM to the mod

This ^

if the reasons are included then they will judge the reason not the player

and thats not WOTC by its defiition. its a jury-like method for enforcing people - and that must require majority of the remaining players vote at least to be justified

Dude the whole point is to judge, condemn and destroy the offending player. He's the one in the crosshairs, I don't see a need to give him a reason to defend himself.

It's not about what is fair or not fair. It is about making players happy, and if 3 players hate 1, as a matter of brute fact that player is very likely shit and will DEFINITELY make the game better for those 3 guys.

My whole argument was about its being fair or not being fair. If you want to make players happy then its fine

as I said their ok to be done the way they are.They are not justified though.

[Frozen Angel]

See? You keep falling back on the ideas of a court of law, of rights and obligations. I have 0 obligations to anyone as a mod, as a player or as a fellow human being, other than to follow the site rules and be generally civil.

We are humans and this is a part of a human driven society.

Justification and fairness are all defined by the definition of humanity.

[Frozen Angel]

FA, ITS OKAY TO BE UNFAIR

ITS OKAY TO UNFAIRLY EXCLUDE PEOPLE FROM A GAME

THAT IS THE FRIGGING POINT

Its really not!

but cause your shouting that's ok

[Frozen Angel]

By stripping them of their rights to respond and stir up drama, by stripping them of their rights to play a game of mafia, you are sending them an unambiguous message that they are not welcome until they get their shit together. If you give them a chance to argue back or give them reasons to be fair, then you're missing the point.

WOTC is a *punishment*.

Its really not!

Its an enforcer to keep games clean.

and being rude to someone won't punish them! You can punish them when your fair and civil

[Frozen Angel]

No it's not! Humans can be as unjustified and unfair as they like. That's the freedom of thought and action, two of the most basic freedoms in the world.

That's not the definition of freedom

and no they can't really.

[Frozen Angel]

Why are you so fixated on being justified in your actions? Nobody needs to justify anything. That's the beauty of it.

talking about liberal arts always ends up in fights like this.

there is no way for you to convince me at this point , nor a way for me to convince you.

and we both are right and wrong at the same time. so lets ned this and catch up with our lives!

[Frozen Angel]

No it's not! Humans can be as unjustified and unfair as they like. That's the freedom of thought and action, two of the most basic freedoms in the world.

That's not the definition of freedom

and no they can't really.

Like what

Are you seriously trying to put forth an argument for policing the private thoughts and reasonings of mafiascum players in order to create a more fair wotx system

no definitely not!

I proposed the justified wotc version in my mind - eventhough even myself won't ever use it. cuase I dont like wotc in general.

thats definitly not independent on private toughts or reasonings of MS players.

[Frozen Angel]

I'm going to keep repeating this.

No mafia mod is obligated to be fair to players that might shit up their game. No mafia player is obligated to be fair to players who might shit up their game. If YOU get WOTCed, sucks to be you. You don't get the right to demand explanations or an appeal. You leave the game, because YOU have been judged in the eyes of your peers and found UNWORTHY by your other players and mod to play in the game.

And I'm going to repeat myself again

yes! I totally agree. the unfair mathods are totally ok!

their just you know ... unfair! thats my whole argument lol

[Frozen Angel]

I'm really tired mollie!

maybe tomorrow?

[Frozen Angel]

oh.....god

[Frozen Angel]

Not taking any sides in this conversation

no one is more responsible for a loose. Not in the game yume was with kuroi nor in the game with wisdom. You guys can't understand the meaning of team play and sadly mafia is a team game. When you loose you lost it together.

so if you can't play with eachother thats fine. just don't play with each other.

[Frozen Angel]

@Acc You can't judge yume's case if you never played with her and you don't know anything about it

so either stop or start gathering info and judge it fair

Yume not playing her games and getting highly emotional in games blaming others for what they did and thought is right is not acceptable. Its a thing she really need to work on. thats my pov on this matter. now if anyone can see her as what she is and if She is really trying to improve then ok; start resolving your issues with her. If not then try to communiate and seek out the reasons. I myself have no idea why you keep signing up for games you never play.

[Frozen Angel]

The other deep dark secret? We all suck at this game. It does no good to good grudges based on truly gameplay actions like someone flipping town. If that's why you're being wotcd then shame on them.

But i dont think that's the case.

Thats why the reasons must be public or announed to the player herself.

I think the reasons are :

- her stubborn arguments accusing* others of game threw after all her games
- the way she is passive during the games
- the way she never plays some games she signs up for and get repeatedly* replaced* out of games

I don't know if there is any other reason for her getting wotc'ed. all 3 are simple facts which can be resolved with a simple direct communication and limiting her games she can sign up for. The rest of this drama is totally useless ...

edit : fixed * words

[Frozen Angel]

I have a huge mollie post I must answer to as well! damn It I forgot to do so yesterday.

[Frozen Angel]

okay you thank its rude. are you okay with pple disagreeing with you? cos I feel like that is where at least part of the conflict is. for instance I do not think it is rude, but there was a time when I did.

yeah thats totally fine! But what I all rude in this topic is based on humanity measures not personal view so ...

wrt the bold: nope. we, as a member have no rights except what is outlined in the terms of service that we agree to when we join. it does not include "the right to join any game that they want. this forum is based on a social contract, the laws that govern the legal side of the internet are still in its embryonic stage, especially laws that can be applied globally. we agree to enter a social contract with owner of the site; the moderation team is here to enforce the adherence to that social contract. I am not going to go into the ethics of moderation cos this is not the appropriate venue for that.

stop making my statement more complicated than it looks. keep reading the next stement I wrote there... All the users of MS must agree to the terms of service in MS (thats were bans and other kind of rules ban some people). Next step is the mod. Mod has the owner ship of their game so they can WOTM/ban whoever they want as well on their will. The next stage is what some modes might apply - an enforced so the games remain fun - or whatever is that enforcer purpose. Now one of these enforcers is "WOTC" designed as a democratical voting between the people who are eligible as player (passed the two filter system I stated above) to remove someones access to the game.

I wldn't know the majority of examples cos it was not made public. I do know of a cple of instances where the member was wotc-ed and there was no explanation as to why and I assume it didn't erupt in some big ol' drama cos it is likely that the person understood why the wotc was being applied in the first place. I am not going to provide the instances since they were private and all parties likely prefer it to stay that way. in the instances that I did provide were brought up in the queue several years ago, publicly.

The "who is wotced" are public usually. Mods announce that X got wotce'd normally (which this makes that drama you all are really afraid of - not the reasons). I never saw a wotc when they made the reasons public to the accused so I will insist on my point. I'm just saying this version I'm talking about is wrong by the factors I'm presenting. Some are using the fine versions? I have no argue against them!

again ms is not a court system. the analogy does not work because ms structurally is not moderated within the scope of a legal system.

It is a part of human sosciety and it must be ruled by rules and whats right to be counted "fair". Thats all I'm saying. Not saying its getting applied right now or whats getting applied is not applicable! Its totally applicable and OK but its not fair

okay. except this just confuses me as to what exactly you are arguing here. again i think this is due to a possible language barrier issue/breakdown in communication, I am just not sure how to try to fix it.

I am saying if player B already told player A why their blacklisting them and player A is now ignoring that reason why they want to hide their identity while reminding player A they an't/ shouldn't join the game? It has an obvious paradox. The hidding is just meaningful and not absurd for people who wants to blaklist someone without telling them why or argue with them or even give them a hane to defend which is what makes it unfair and not a reliable enforement method.

okay, but this is where you lose me cos I feel like you being largely inconsistent here. it seems incongruous to me that it is acceptable for a lack of transparency on the mod's part, but not from the userbase. I mean I wotc-ed once and told them why and they threw a hissy for and followed my games that they weren't even in specifically to post that they thought I was "the worst human being ever" and that I was a piece of shit. no1 cared. I can't blame pple for wanting to do it discreetly and it has nothing to do with condoning cowardliness and everything to do with I can understand why some1 wld not want to set themselves up for outright harassment.

nope! no inconsistany. Mods are the owners of the game. They an just say. hey You smell and don't let you in but you as a player have no right to say that. unless by putting the mod as middleman. now it is a ourthouse and mod is the judge ! Guilty or not guilty - if not deided in a fair manner makes the whole judgement flawed!

like I have said, I have never seen a situ where some1 was wotc-ed out any discernable reason. wotc truly does not happen that often.

I saw that 3 times in past year. in two cases it was hidden when it came to reasoning or getting face to faced and in this yume case is the third one.

[Frozen Angel]

tbqh i dont see how yume would have accumulated this much hate if she was as innocent as she claims

who is innocent and who is guilty?

If you don't know the details you definitely are not authorized to talk about this topic

[Frozen Angel]

tbqh i dont see how yume would have accumulated this much hate if she was as innocent as she claims

who is innocent and who is guilty?

If you don't know the details you definitely are not authorized to talk about this topic

Yume DEFINITELY cannot be innocent. I don't need to know any details to know that someone with a dozen WOTCs is not innocent.

Whats your definition of innicent? They called all the prophets liar when they were advising everyone to god. Are they liars?(Not making this religious or anything; just making a point)

Yes everyone your mentioning might be wrong. logically your use for word "definitely" is wrong.

but no one asked you to talk about something you don't know anything about. come back when you read the details.

[Frozen Angel]

Do you think that 20 people spontaneously hallucinated Yume being a bad mafia player and WOTCed her for no reason

I never said that

I said you have no right to talk on that specific matter and no one asked you to

[Frozen Angel]

no its not

[Frozen Angel]

I am definitly not defending her though before accusing me of that. read my posts to see whats my stance about this.

[Frozen Angel]

Do you think that 20 people spontaneously hallucinated Yume being a bad mafia player and WOTCed her for no reason

I never said that

I said you have no right to talk on that specific matter and no one asked you to

If you don't think that happened then it must be the case through logic and common sense that Yume is a bad player.

Anyone has the right to outline transparently obvious chains of logic.

I never said what I think about that matter, I'm saying if you don't know the details you can't talk about it.

This is judging others. YOU shouldn't dare to judge what you don't know.

[Frozen Angel]

Actually I said what I thought about the matter with the information I had. But even I didn't use it to judge anyone though.

[Frozen Angel]

Anyone has the right to judge anyone else for any reason

If you believe that then I'm sorry for you

[Frozen Angel]

It's also demonstrable that I don't.

Your current rate of completion on games is about 20%.
That means only 20% of your games you play from start to finish.

Now ignoring whether you ruin games for players while inside them.
You do make the games harder for moderators.

Speaking from personal experience here, I have replaced you in three different of my games.

and as I said the first is fixable by not letting her join multiple games at once or to be in hydras

the ruin part and if she doesn't know how to play is fixable over time

you guys really need to get your shit together and consider others human beings as well

[Frozen Angel]

applying restrictions to her games is understandable. Not letting her play is understandable. attacking her constantly is not.

she Can change her previous attidue. its a proven fact.

[Frozen Angel]

Frozen, I am plenty willing to give someone a second chance. (In this case it would be fourth)

My huge problem with Yume right now, is she completely ignores the fact how much she has fucked up.
She has yet to say "I fucked up in these scenarios, I am sorry and I will not do it again".

she never ignored anything

she completly accepted all the critica I made against her. Your not criticizing her. your judging her.

[Frozen Angel]

you guys really need to get your shit together and consider others human beings as well

If those human beings insist on ruining games, they deserve to be called out on it until they refrain from doing so or are stopped from doing so.

As I said applying restrictions or punishing her for what she did is totally acceptable.

You don't have any authority to repeatedly harrass her publickly though by stating this fact "she can't change" you can suggest her to play in newbie games as thats a good place for her to learn as well

There is a very tick line in this : between 1. criticizing/enforcing punishments and restrictions and 2. judging others. The first is accpetable the second is not

[Frozen Angel]

she is trying to say she is trying to change house.

what is with this aggression

@Fire no. definitely not. I do beleive all the reasons are these 3 aren't they?
- her stubborn arguments accusing* others of game threw after all her games
- the way she is passive during the games
- the way she never plays some games she signs up for and get repeatedly* replaced* out of games

she accpeted the third multiple times in my face and I never saw her ignoring that she didn't do this before cause its not ignorable.
the second as well is completly accepted by her. and She claims she is trying to change that
The first is just not yours to judge. She has the right to feel bad about how some players played but her toxicity is the thing is not accpetable. For that she is blamale I agree. she never denied the the second part and was compltly reasonable to this if you ask her to stop toxicity. You are not critixizing that though.

[Frozen Angel]

the ruin part and if she doesn't know how to play is fixable over time

over how much time? Shes had enough time already and her attitude has not changed one bit

Every human being is capabole of change once they understand what is wrong with them.

lets assume Over ten thousends years

you can't say "she had enough time" for this

[Frozen Angel]

the ruin part and if she doesn't know how to play is fixable over time

over how much time? Shes had enough time already and her attitude has not changed one bit

^

Frozen, she sent me a PM threatening to destroy Cowboy bebop if I didn't back off!

pm me that please

Yume claimed your lieing

[Frozen Angel]

wiating for your pm house

[Frozen Angel]

If you are gonna go there, then I don't want to be in the games of someone who holds real life issues secondary to playing games.

What real life issues?

Like, sometimes real life gets in the way of being active every five minutes. That was your demand for Dragon Age. You weren't just restricting me to prod times, you insisted I post more than once during 12 hours. At least, that's what I got from FA's messages.

p-edit: Prove your assertion. You said I ruin large games. So give me one FINISHED, LARGE GAME that I ruined on THIS ACCOUNT. Games that are mini, micro or aren't on this account don't count, cos you explicitly said I ruin large games.

I never made that restriction. If Frozen told you that she told you that.

My conversation with Frozen went something like this:

ME: Frozen, this will be the third game that Yume has inned for that I am modding, she has replaced out of two already. I am hesitant to let her in. But if I do, and she gets replaced out, she is banned from any game I ever mod again
FROZEN: Don't worry I promise she will play! She gave me her word.

I was not surprised at all I had to replace you.

yeah I'm pissed about that convo too

and I give you all right to be pissed at her and don't take her word after this.

[Frozen Angel]

I wil consult with a listmod about the thing that just happened.

its not in my territory to judge that

[Frozen Angel]

the ruin part and if she doesn't know how to play is fixable over time

over how much time? Shes had enough time already and her attitude has not changed one bit

I'm definitely not defending her

I'm attacking you guys for the way your attacking her

[Frozen Angel]

I didn't say I'm attacking you for attacking her!

I said I'm attacking you for the way your attacking her you ....

[Frozen Angel]

I'm definitely not defending her

I'm attacking you guys for the way your attacking her

Why? The attacks on her are reasonable. She's been given time and solutions and her gameplay and general attitude remains exactly the same: it's always others who are at fault, for tunneling, for ruining games, for thinking they are gods, etc etc. I don't see how this is going to change even if we wait a thousand years.

let me grab my herbal tea and I will answer you

[Frozen Angel]

I'm definitely not defending her

I'm attacking you guys for the way your attacking her

Why? The attacks on her are reasonable. She's been given time and solutions and her gameplay and general attitude remains exactly the same: it's always others who are at fault, for tunneling, for ruining games, for thinking they are gods, etc etc. I don't see how this is going to change even if we wait a thousand years.

First I'm going to fix what you said : "The critcs about her play are reasonable" and yes she's been given time and solutions to get better in this and she failed to reach that certain acceptable level so I do agree that she must be restricted /enforced/punished now and its reasonable to not take her words and wotming her. Have I ever said anything against that?

shouting this in public over and over and claiming she can't fix herself is the part which is wrong. Thats the part your getting judgmental and illogical. She can very much change as she is a human being and she has the right to has a way for doing that. The point is there is a limit for this as well - I agree with this part. when someone gets site baned their getting restricted and thrown out. when someone is perma banned that means they don't deserve another chance for the huge errors they did. Rules can judge. Listmods and the people who are the community judges can completly perma ban people based on a certain protocloe but thats not something you as a user in this site can request. Judging is absoloutly wrong. spescially when its not about her mistakes but her capaboloty for fixing them in future.

[Frozen Angel]

I'm definitely not defending her

I'm attacking you guys for the way your attacking her

Why? The attacks on her are reasonable. She's been given time and solutions and her gameplay and general attitude remains exactly the same: it's always others who are at fault, for tunneling, for ruining games, for thinking they are gods, etc etc. I don't see how this is going to change even if we wait a thousand years.

Tell me: did we lose Symphonic Metal Mafia and Mini 620 because of me or because you and Kuroi tunneled? Tell the truth and only the truth, and no dodging the question or turning it around onto an attack on me.

don't bring this circular fight again please. all the members in a team loose and wins together , thats the meaing of teamplay. You all made mistakes and you should try to learn you were responsible for the loose as much as others.

[Frozen Angel]

I'm really tired atm and I will leave ms

will be back in an hour or two to continue this discussion if anything was regarded to me

[Frozen Angel]

Because the town, in general, including me, Jake, and you, was bad.

That doesn't change your performance and attitude in that game was unbearable.

And yours was better?

Sorry FA, but I can't honor that request. They treat me as a devil when they're just as bad themselves.

see?! your saying they are just "as bad" so you agree you made some errors as well!

Thats the first step for improving. Isolate yourself and detect those errors! ignore the rest.

[Frozen Angel]

see?! your saying they are just "as bad" so you agree you made some errors as well!

Thats the first step for improving. Isolate yourself and detect those errors! ignore the rest.

no it really isn't, it's just deflection

what?

deflection from what

[Frozen Angel]

I want to!

[Frozen Angel]

she means she is trying as hard as she can to be reasonable in all her games.

thats her approach for proving she is getting better. lol

[Frozen Angel]

she means she is trying as hard as she can to be reasonable in all her games.

thats her approach for proving she is getting better. lol

well, not everyone will take her word for it.

and that's totally ok!

but they can't just come out and claim "she can't change" !

[Frozen Angel]

@acc you don't even know what the message was

It was reported to a listmod so back of very kindly. you have no place to talk about that

[Frozen Angel]

but they can't just come out and claim "she can't change" !

I'm just saying what I'm seeing
Her attitude is the exact same as it was in the beginning
I see no change nor any attempts to change
so yeah

thats ok that you see it this way

so what?

[Frozen Angel]

@acc you don't even know what the message was

It was reported to a listmod so back of very kindly. you have no place to talk about that

It doesn't matter what the exact wordnig of the message was. there's no possible situation where yume would threaten to break site rules without also endorsing a certain mentality that not everyone appreciates in a mafia game

I have reasons to believe that was an empty threat trying to end the conversation and house harrasment. and who are you to talk about it anyway?

we have listmods and what they say goes!

[Frozen Angel]

pretty sure it's not just me though; nobody other than your stubborn friend is defending you

I am not defending her!

[Frozen Angel]

even an empty threat would still embody a certain disrespect for the rules

and thats what listmods will consider and judge based on!

again who are you to say what is ok or not?

[Frozen Angel]

Even I as the moderator of the game ; I have no opinion and won't express any sympathy with eaither side.

seriously why you think you have the right to talk about everything?

[Frozen Angel]

You might want to warn your future protégés that I don't respond favorably to threats.

I never said it was an appropriate thing she did

I have absolutely no call on this! tell her yourself

[Frozen Angel]

even an empty threat would still embody a certain disrespect for the rules

and thats what listmods will consider and judge based on!

again who are you to say what is ok or not?

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that "making threats to break site rules, regardness of emptiness, is not ok".

Every human being has the right to judge every other human being according to their own standards. If their own standards are unreasonably strong or alien, then this is arrogance. But if the standards are something that are widely agreed on, such as "do not disrespect the rules by making threats to break them", then it's not unreasonable to judge based on that.

Thats ok to express your pov. but then what? Your opinion has seriously no weight here; you can think however you want about the situation!

I will wait for the listmod decision on the matter

[Frozen Angel]

Even I as the moderator of the game ; I have no opinion and won't express any sympathy with eaither side.

seriously why you think you have the right to talk about everything?

this is called the freedom of speech

which is whats wrong with todays world!

actually no its ok! you can talk and talk as much as you want. Don't dare to judge though unless you have power.

[Frozen Angel]

Thats ok to express your pov. but then what? Your opinion has seriously no weight here; you can think however you want about the situation!

If you think I'm trying to exert my opinion onto Yume by force, that's simply wrong. I'm asserting what I know is correct, and it is up to her whether she wishes to accept it. I have no away to enforce anything.

Your opinion of what? You don't know what is the thing your talking about!

Your pov in this is simply just logically refused even though it might be correct.

[Frozen Angel]

I will wait for the listmods decision on the matter of whether people are allowed to judge other people in public threads

you can talk as much as you want who gives a damn

wait as much as you like

[Frozen Angel]

I endorse the idea for Yume to play only in newbie section though. that's a great way for improving.

[Frozen Angel]

pretty sure it's not just me though; nobody other than your stubborn friend is defending you

I am not defending her!

lol
ok im done with this thread

why though

she deserves to be punished and restricted , I totally agree! but you must get your shit together!

[Frozen Angel]

if you're going to say "it's okay to refuse correct opinions because the person with the correct opinion has no power to enforce it", this is a ridiculous point of view.

Your idea is not correct! maybe it might be but you have no background to have an opinion on the matter! Its definitely ok to refuse whatever your saying on this matter !

[Frozen Angel]

I'm not defending anything!

I am the one who messages the listmod about the matter

I am saying someone with no idea what the hell happened has no right to judge it.

[Frozen Angel]

I have sirious issues with the "way you all talk" not what your saying

[Frozen Angel]

I'm not defending anything!

I am the one who messages the listmod about the matter

I am saying someone with no idea what the hell happened has no right to judge it.

Don't worry, I filled Accountant in.

Problem solved. Wasn't that easy?

still neither she , nor you has any right to judge if that was a site role vilation or not. You may hate yume as much as you want! you can't enforce anything so you shouldn't talk like you can!

do that and the rest is ok

[Frozen Angel]

acc was a he I persume? sorry for that

[Frozen Angel]

Never said you ever tried that

[Frozen Angel]

even an empty threat would still embody a certain disrespect for the rules

This is whats wrong!

[Frozen Angel]

No no no sorry. I never complained at you. you attacked me for complaining at acc so I put his and your name there (and yours was just an example as I mean its not just about him)

it applies to me as well.

[Frozen Angel]

i'm opting to blacklist anyone with more than a page worth of posts in this thread

You can ban me it won't make me wrong

be more direct please

[Frozen Angel]

FA is like that judge on The Good Wife that requires lawyers to end assertions in "in my opinion".

I guess we're getting out of topic and I have no idea what your trying to ask me here

[Frozen Angel]

I just signed

[Frozen Angel]

don't try and rope me into arguing and forcing me to ban myself!

lol

but you started it!

so where I'm wrong in anything I said?

[Frozen Angel]

It's a joke.

Great tv show, you should watch it so my snark isn't wasted on you.

I will add that to my watch list maybe

still didn't understand what you tried to say though

[Frozen Angel]

It's a joke.

Great tv show, you should watch it so my snark isn't wasted on you.

I will add that to my watch list maybe

still didn't understand what you tried to say though

Of course what we're saying is our opinion.

That's implied by the fact we're saying it.

Unless we are leveling threats of consequences, we're not acting like we can enforce. It's just an opinion.

I disagree there is acertain level of aggression in your criticizes and a the charisma of a judge in the way you all speaking. saying something is right or worng in your pov is not equal to saying its defintly wrong or definitly right and it must have X, Y , Z punishments forever!

You all have your games for yourself and can enforce these stuff there. you can suggest punishments or enforcements and restrictions but nothing is definite!

[Frozen Angel]

shrugs!

I'm happy that we reached a conclusion here anyway so I don't want to argue about the past issues.

[Frozen Angel]

drop it please!

Yume will you only play newbie games for a while?

everyone else is that ok with you all? you signed yes

[Frozen Angel]

If this is what this community truly thinks of me, why should I even bother? You and Wisdom will not budge even if I posted a hundred game links that show me being reasonable. Wisdom because he himself wasn't in any of those games and you because you are stubborn as hell.

their just bad at expressing themselves! Noone hates you here

get over yourself!

[Frozen Angel]

how is house using the "other" option to write his name proof that he is being insincere about his signing?

its just she is observing everything negative as fuck becuase you all were attacking him all at once.

Its a simple emotional reaction nothing else!

[Frozen Angel]

I will not play ANY games for a while, because I will be banned.

If I get all people who are trying to wotc you and are attacking you in line and talk with listmod to forgive you this once or reduce your punishment will you promise me to just play newbie games for a while?

[Frozen Angel]

stop insulting each other

this is bannable offenses

[Frozen Angel]

[Frozen Angel]

you do the improvement part and I will burn whoever tries to attack you for past.

This is my offer.

[Frozen Angel]

kaintepes last post was saying he will suicide and he never came back to MS

I'm so worried about his health

[Frozen Angel]

WOTC is a judgement method. You can't judge fair without hearing the both sides

[Frozen Angel]

although you might argue that judging others before the crime is not fair in first place

pedit : your getting it vise versa ...

This is a modocracy. when a mod out a player ; the player has litterally nothing to claim as game is mod's property but wotc is calling democracy demand in the matter. democracy is not fair if not public

now if its not that and its going to be hidden ; exactly like a courthouse mods ask players to bring their issues to him and trust him as a judge. Now if it happens completely secret its not fair

applying treshholds has meaning if ITS totally private means No one is even notifies there is a wotc in place so they are expressing their opinions not biased.

[Frozen Angel]

I do agreethe whole thing is absoloutly lame for a "game" in first place though but is ok.

I'm arguing about its fairness

[Frozen Angel]

thats the judgemental thing I said above

you need to talk with the accused as well as you considered yourself as a judge or its not fair

[Frozen Angel]

holy shit

[Frozen Angel]

and wisdom of the one is just stupidly unfair tbh!

but I respect your decision

[Frozen Angel]

and wisdom of the one is just stupidly unfair tbh!

but I respect your decision

[Frozen Angel]

Woto sucks unless you define yourself as a judge and judge them case by case yourself

which only will work if you be transparent with the accused and listen to their defense as well - cause that's how you can judge.

with that in mind and if you trust your skills thats even more fair by definition than "Wotm" which is obviously ok and fair to use in any manner as the game is mod's property

[Frozen Angel]

Thats ok!

I'm saying you need to hear the accused ones as well cause your a "Judge" or whatever you want to call it - a "middleman"

if you want it to be fair! Its ok to use anyway - cause its your game and definitely your rules apply. I'm just suggesting how to have a more efficient/fair rules.

pedit : but Then "Why?" "Cause he called me as scum in last three games!" and you just outed someone for someone's satisfaction based on a bullshit reason.

Judging is hard.

[Frozen Angel]

or he misght even say "He is toxix a lot!" but then you must ask why isn't he/she banned? you go and check the games/clues talk with a listmod and see he never did anything wrong and just was trying to stop someones harrasing them. or they were scum and was just role playing - and the accuser is just upset for other reasons.

If that doesn't matter to you as a mod thats totally fine , but again its not fair to judge based on one sides description

[Frozen Angel]

I did say that WotO needs case-by-case-basis to be optimal.

That was exactly what I said. If your going to judge you need to judge case by case - and not biased becuase you know X and you think x is a lovely person but based on what you can get from the both sides - the accuser and the accused.

thats fair version ^

And your examples can be solved because the WotM is also in effect.

Wotm is already fair and nothing can be told about it. its your game do whatever you want!

[Frozen Angel]

@Acc I'm not saying removing all the players who have a tiny history of trouble making won't have good impact on the game!

I'm talking about fairness - which that is also discussable! If you believe players who are accepted by mafia scum rules has still no rights and your the god of your game and you can choose who must join your game thats totally fine (till its not a mafia scum rule violation)

@GIF that was a bout Wotm! and that was what I was saying since the start! and I do believe its right! but when you tell others your going to apear as a judge you get new responsibilities

[Frozen Angel]

that is ok to have enforcers

all I was talking about was its fairness

[Frozen Angel]

A game of competitive nature is fun when

win.

This man speaks the truth.

I never talked about fun! not sure where this came to this topic!

My arguments were about fairness.

[Frozen Angel]

This is a great thread <3