Newbie 2061 | Views of Tallinn | Town wins

[Meuh]

@Meuh, you said that you have a lot of experience playing with Marci, right? Can you weigh in on something that has stood out to me?

In your experience playing with her, is Marci normally particularly hesitant / apologetic as a town player? She seems very hesitant to make her claims without first making it clear that she is unsure and she also repeatedly set up an out of game reason why she might be underperforming as a town player. In my experience, town players seem more inclined to just confidently be wrong. But this can vary a lot by player

Spoiler:

before coming to this site, I mainly played with the same group of people over and over, and this was something I could use as a scum tell for some players, but we did have this one girl who was always super hesitent no matter what

Spoiler:

I don't have many reads rn I won't lie, it's kinda hard because it just seems like the same few people talking with others coming in once in awhile, and theres nothing all that solid, but I'll give my best shot

I get played soo easily I hope I don't get played this game tho.

before I 100% say cause its so hard to decide. (I just really dont know sorry )

I'm so sorry guys I have a lot of schoolwork to do rn, and dont feel like i can put effort in rn like i have in previous days

I hope i used the right post numbers im so scared of doing these kinds of lists cuz I tried it last game and by accident put the wrong number

Hmm, not sure exactly what I think..

I didn't really feel hella confident in anyone being scum earlier (like i had scum reads, but i wasn't confident in them...), Idk where to go I wanna make a vote that I think is scum instead of just going onto a wagon for the sake of an elim.. but with votes this spread out, i don't really see reactions to being voted..
I think despite what I want to do, that I should just stick within the already being voted because thats what'll be best for town.

Do you have suggestions..? I wanna hear whats the ideas of other people first... but I have a rough idea of what vote I would make.

i hope this helps..?

wait also heres my VOTE: meuh

i think my heads broken reading meuh is always so hard for me

--- I don't believe it. I could always be wrong

I'm sorry guys I was too pissed to play yesterday ;-; my brothers so annoying

that looks so big, but i wrote it as I was reading i'm sorry if its too much

i'm sorry i haven't been here so often. i feel so useless.

im useless because i've been focusing on hw instead of helping im sorry

I'm not really like 100% sure on this... but its the best idea i've got..
{snip}
This is the read i'm most confident in, so I'll be voting it VOTE: catboi, if its lukewarm... i've truly been tricked and i'll take the blame for this loss.

Alright so, is Marci occasionally apologetic, maybe a bit more than average? Yes. BUT, not this much. 119 sticks out to me, it feels off to me. 219, 228, 313, 513, 730 and 893 are all regular Marci posts to me, but the rest I feel at least a bit doubtful on. The idea that me and Marci suck at reading each other is something we both bring up pretty often, so that's not uncharacteristic, she feels like a more confident player in the 2 games I've played with her and that I've skimmed through.

Marci it will be hard to find you town at endgame if you keep not voting, we need your vote to be proactive so that vote logic is comprehensible in the game

i wont vote if i dont like the options is it bad to not vote if im not confident??? i dont wanna lynch a townie

harumi is who i thinks most scum so ill vote that then, but i dont want to vote anyone else, im not confident in anyone else being scum. VOTE: harumi

Here though for example, you can see that this isn't out of the ordinary from Marci, I've just noticed it a bit less while skimming?
I feel like I'm confbiasing myself but I do think she's extra defensive

The whole issue with this is that her whole pool of games are from not only town!Marci but vt!Marci. Being more careful about survival is something both scum and prs would do, so you could argue part of it is that she fears confrontation as a defense mechanism due to her bringing more value to the table; although I don't really view her hesitance as really helping her if she is PR and I don't think she's the kind of player to consciously change her playstyle much as PR, but with scum it's very hard not to.

[Meuh]

934 (and another post that i forgot which) tries to say im "scum trying to tie townies down to their partner" essentially, right? but wouldn't town be trying to keep their eyes out for possible duos?

I don't understand what point you're trying to make here, Marci? Scum want to tie town to their partners so that the partners are seen as duos with townies so the townies will be elimed afterwards.

[Meuh]

Ah, marci...so this is the path you've chosen. I'm assuming you're scum who sees pushing me as your best hope, but I'll give what you say a look.

Why would scum be committing to a wagon this early? Marci looks town for that vote imo

[Meuh]

the logic in 676 very much makes sense, with trackerxjailkeeper, we do just win the game if we get a singular scum elim, and that's what everyone thought the setup was at the time. Timing is very much weird though, right after voting VFP

[Meuh]

When I voted him on day 2, before not_mafia had even claimed, VFP immediately pushed back onto me. In this scenario,

if I were the mafia roleblocker, VFP bussing me would be an automatic loss

. mafia aren't going to make plays like this. I'd be telling him not to do it. And I'm the

only

one he pushes, for the rest of the day up until the point he's eliminated:

This is true, if we we're in A2 (which a VFPxCatboi) team would know here, rber dead means an insta-loss (goon doesn't, but rber does since jailkeeper/tracker can narrow our scumpool), so while Catboi pushing VFP doesn't clear him too much, VFP pushing him does prove a lot more

[Meuh]

i feel like part of the reason i'm liking catboi here is that i prefer his logic but that's not really AI, he just communicates messages and makes point i have an easier time agreeing with

[Meuh]

@Meuh, on the other hand, this is a post from catboi that stood out to me.

If T3 or marci express a willingness to vote me I'll claim.

Like it is hard to see this, and not think it is a soft pr claim.

It further irks me because at the time that he made this post, he only had 2 votes on him. So he was no where near being voted off, so it was not a "if someone is about to hammer me, I will claim my role as VT"

yeah it seems a bit of an early point to claim, and hinting pr makes a lot more sense as rber since being the more valuable member, being able to brush off the push on them with a pr claim could work.
Also if we look at the way Catboi assumed it was a doctor game, we could see this also as hinting pr, so Catboi would be fake-claiming doctor. The issue with that is that it would initiate a 1v1 between Catboi and the real pr, and if the scum team was going for a 1v1 (which idk why they'd do), they'd at least be sending VFP in. Maybe they were thinking that since the pr was jailkeeper (which they'd know at that point) that they could go after them for not claiming early in the day, but it doesn't really matter, trading rber for jailkeeper doesn't seem very worthwhile to me, especially considering that gamestate.
There's literally no reason for Catboi to fake claim pr here. It's one thing for behaviour to seemingly imply something but if this implication would be BAD for the scumteam, I don't understand how that post could be scummy.
The only way I can see scum!Catboi benefit from softing pr is to be able to brush off the push on him temporarily, and just go "no this actually wasn't softing pr" down the line since it isn't very blatant, but being able to ride that line between softing pr and just being town accidentally implying pr, and then also have people catch onto you, just doesn't seem like a worthwhile to me.

[Meuh]

Spoiler:

Meuh, which way are you leaning atm? Personally, I am struggling

Like, I read through Marci's iso, and I start leaning towards it being her, and then I read through catboi's iso and I start leaning towards it being him.

Can you explain your thinking? Vague statements like this are unhelpful.

Just for the record, since I've laid most of my cards on the table already:

Lukewarm? This post scared the hell out of me. Because in all my experience playing mafia, I often find scum say things like this at ELO. The fencesitting without visible commitment or analysis, I've seen it many times.

Now, that doesn't mean it's inherently scummy. Town can make posts that sound very scummy, and they can fencesit as well, especially in a situation like this. So it's a post town

can

make. But it's also a post scum

would

make, because when two townies are attacking each other scum want to seem like they're giving them consideration but don't want to make the first move. So I asked you because I want to see your thinking behind things, rather than just words about how you're feeling, so I can hopefully get a handle on whether it's believable.

Now, I'm not acting hastily and changing my mind on a single post here. I learned my lesson from doing that before. I'm not going to discard the evidence from all the rest of the game for a hasty judgment based on a paranoid read of something that only happened this game day. (in fact, when I was looking back at VFP's ISO, I felt his final comments toward you were somewhat un-partnery)

But as I'm being completely transparent with my thought process right now, I just felt I should be open with how I felt about this post. (If you're town, don't say stuff like this!)

Yeah Luke, while I'm here to support you, you need to form your own thoughts and commit to your own ideas, non-commitment isn't gonna get us anywhere, plus you need to support me too (ik I'm incredible but I can't solo-carry MELO ) You probably do quite a bit of that in your more recent posts but I haven't gotten to them yet
But yep, fence-sitting here is generally scummy, like at almost any point in the game but here especially, scum want to keep as many doors open as possible so they always have some sort of plan B and plan C if their main push doesn't turn out the way they want it to.

[Meuh]

Spoiler:

@Meuh, on the other hand, this is a post from catboi that stood out to me.

If T3 or marci express a willingness to vote me I'll claim.

Like it is hard to see this, and not think it is a soft pr claim.

It further irks me because at the time that he made this post, he only had 2 votes on him. So he was no where near being voted off, so it was not a "if someone is about to hammer me, I will claim my role as VT"

I thought at the time there were multiple people scumreading me and that it was possible I'd end up as the default wagon since there wasn't someone else people were really pushing.

I'm stubborn about claiming though, you can see it in the other game, where I got run up on day 1:

Yeah, I absolutely am not claiming unless there's intent to hammer, that'd be a bad idea. I'll vote Lone if necessary for self-preservation.

I don't think I really softclaim as either alignment, but

if I was going to hint at a PR as mafia I probably would just claim it rather than claiming VT.

I am not sure how that out-of-thread quote is supposed to clear you here?

In that game you said "I absolutely am not claiming unless there's intent to hammer" but then in this game, you said "If T3 or marci express a willingness to vote me I'll claim." while only having 2 votes on you. And that seems like two different approaches to take if you were VT in both games

And I am not sure that it would necessarially make sense for scum!you to follow thorugh with the claim, given the gamestate.

You made what could be taken as a soft claim in post 629, and then not long after Not_Mafia claimed doc in post 649. So I could see scum!you soft claiming, but changing direction once Not_Mafia claimed their role.

Reading through a duel iso between you and Not_Mafia makes it look like he thought the same thing. Since he knew he was the jailkeeper, and Marci had not been CC'ed, then you hinting at being a PR would have been a major red flag from his PoV.

Spoiler:

Did catboi just slip we're in Tracker/Doc/Rolecop

If T3 or marci express a willingness to vote me I'll claim.

I think Lukewarm is playing like obvscum, beyond that I don't have strong reads to leave

Did catboi just slip we're in Tracker/Doc/Rolecop

I made a guess.

Based on what?

Based on what?

based on T3 trying to draw out jailkeeper claims and me straight-up forgetting that jailkeeper+tracker could be a thing

T3 vote catboi

At first blush I took it as a soft claim. I think that multiple other players did too. If I am remembering correctly, both T3 and Marci commented on it, and like I showed in the spoilers, not_mafia voted not long after it.

I like the points being made here, makes sense to me!
Yeah Catboi's posting was being taken as soft-claiming to a degree, although I never voiced it I also had a moment where I was like "hold on... Catboi's doctor isn't he?" but then I had a second thought and decided he wasn't but I don't remember why? I wish I could but I have no clue
Using meta that he has an unwillingness to claim to justify a willingness to claim seems contradictory, makes Catboi scummy if anything.

[Meuh]

(but, again, self-meta doesn't mean a whole lot)

You can say that again. As of post 968, I was leaning pretty strongly towards Marci being the vote today, and really was just waiting to hear Meuh's response to post 965 before I settled in to that being the case I was going to build. But every time you have tried to defend yourself, I have been left less sure its her

Speaking of which, @Meuh can you make sure to respond to Post 965 - 968

Well, I thik if muy posting has been offputting you should remember what gets said today isn't the most important thing - the most revealing evidence is on all the days before this. I think getting dragged down because someone's posting in ELO sounds "off" to you is a mistake. Like how you sounding like you were fencesitting earlier pinged me, but I didn't flip my entire read on it. I just was upfront with what made me uneasy and asked you to clarify.

It is not that I am "getting dragged down because someone's posting in ELO sounds "off." It is much more like you keep reminding me why I was scum reading you earlier in the game. Like I had you near the top of my scum read list during my catchup on Day 1... and I had you as my top scum read Day 2... And even at the start of this day, you were my scum read. How dumb would I feel post game if I literally scum read you the entire game, and still lost to scum!catboi because he managed to side track me last min.

I think at this point I am going to have to build full cases against both of you tomorrow, because I have been pulled back to uncertainty

If this is scum!Catboi and we miselim Marci that'd be so embarassing I'm actually so scared of that, T3 will have every right to yell at us post-game

[Meuh]

Ah, marci...so this is the path you've chosen. I'm assuming you're scum who sees pushing me as your best hope, but I'll give what you say a look.

Why would scum be committing to a wagon this early? Marci looks town for that vote imo

Huh? If she's scum here, she knows that I am correctly reading her and am unlikely to change my mind, so her best bet is to push me. Committing to a vote early in ELO isn't a towntell.

Eh yeah ig for her specifically here it wouldn't, I just feel like fence-sitting and keeping doors open is something scum like to do, making voting kinda scary for them here, not that voting is pro-town.

[Meuh]

I'm officially caught up

[Meuh]

Ugh why is this so hard I swear if Catboi has had me pocketed since mid-day 2 I’d die of embarrassment
Insightful post though Luke, I’ll need to reread some of day 2 to get a better grasp of whether your or Catboi’s interpretation was more accurate

[Meuh]

*mid-day 1

Also Lukewarm, I think 579 and 602 explain a fair bit why Catboi would think you’re scummier than VFP, doesn’t necessarily justify it but
“tl;dr
VFP pushes pear // I don't buy it but I think VFP might be town regardless
Luke pushes pear // I don't buy it and I think Luke is scum for making the case he did”
Doesn’t seem entirely accurate

I think the appeal of some grandiose reveal that the PR claim is actually scum and the satisfaction that elim would bring is unironically biasing me here
I think it’s Catboi probably, this whole Marci thing needs to go though so many hoops to be true that Catboi’s case doesn’t
Also I almost never dream but for some reason I just had a dream that Catboi, Marci and Luke were all town and somehow, for some reason, N_M was the last scum??? It was very odd, would’ve felt enlightened if it wasn’t for him literally flipping jailkeeper

[Meuh]

Yeah that's what I do.


I think I wan to hammer test lukewarm right now to be sure we're not wasting time. Lukewarm, you still around?

If we wanna fully commit to Catboi v marci I’m open to that, that’s true wasting time would suck

[Meuh]

Day 2

Enter the VFP. I pointed this out in my Catboi post, but his entrance was to scum read both Marci, and Catboi. And he put the elim priority as Pear>Marci>Catboi

Spoiler:

marcistar
catboi

Pearofclubs

VFP, thoughts onmarci?

228 is a good post from town mind set plus pushing the game forward, but majority of their posting is just fence sitting and safe for me.
I can go into more detail if you want though but I'd rather lim here than Catboi from my bottom 3.

Meuh is always town here for me.
Marci lim works for me and I think we just win with Meuh, T3, and iN3krO as town here.
Marci scum makes NM town and iN3krO is plausibly the partner for 513
Marci town just means 2 scum in Pear, Catboi, and NM

But I think it is important to remember, that we all settled on the assumption that VFP pushed Pear to out the PR. So if he is going in with the game plan of Pear>Marci>Catboi, then the moment Pear gets Doc cleared that means it is

Pear

>Marci>Catboi, and leaves him with Marci as his stated preferred push.

uhh you're misreading VFPs readslist... he has Catboi as scummier than Marci, not the other way around. Which means with Pear out of the picture... it's Catboi
Also just generally speaking, actions speak louder than words, Marci had Sama as a scumread for a while but failed to ever vote for him (not necessarily uncharacteristic, Marci doesn't vote that often or that early in general but still), but when traction picked up on me, she voted for me. and VFP "scumread" Marci, but never voted for her, while he did vote for Catboi.
VFP had the backing to hammer Marci in terms of established reads and mechanical opportunity and it didn't happen, he wasn't even on the wagon despite her being a scumread of his, but he WAS on the Catboi wagon (timing with Pear being cleared relates to this, but still)

[Meuh]

This case doesn't really do it for me. Marci fails to make an argument beyond Sama being less active than she'd expect until we'd gotten past 300 posts. Also, Marci's thing against Sama repeating reads quickly gets tied to the case against me and Catboi and shoved to the side with us being prioritized, by the time wagons are being discussed and reads matter, poof, Marci shifts to me and Catboi over Sama.
Sama's post on her point out a singular thing she did that slightly ticked him off, I find cases based on singular posts or interactions to be easy for scum to make against their partners as they're easy to dismiss down the line since there isn't a real case being made, just a singular slightly scummy thing.

[Meuh]

Look at what he actually said in post 525 " I'd rather lim here {Marci} than Catboi from my bottom 3.

He put both in his bottom 3, made a case against pear, then said he would rather elim Marci over catboi.

So elim priority was pear > Marci > catboi

oops

[Meuh]

You have experience playing with her in the past.

Looking at her iso, does it feel like the town!Marci or the scum!Marci you have played with before?

I've played with scum!Marci twice before. Both of those games were offsite. The latest one was 8 months ago, I don't have access to an archive of it, and I was scum with her so I wasn't really paying attention to her behaviour. The other was 10 months ago, I also can't see it and she got elimed day 1, but she was this weird exeXmafia fusion role with a target assigned and got caught off tunneling her target, so the little I do remember doesn't mean much
I barely remember anything from those games and there's enough time since them for her to have changed her playstyle, I honestly can't give you an analysis of scum!Marci vs 2061!Marci

[Meuh]

Unless you want me to talk about irl scum!Marci but that’s way too detached from Mafiascum to mean anything

[Meuh]

Ah, I see. I guess I misunderstood y'all play history lol

So are you leaning towards it being Marci, or are you just still on the fence?

Spoiler:

C) None of the above

the thoughts from my little reflection earlier in 1023 still hold up, I think Catboi's scum here. I just think it's easier to disagree with points being made and point out things I think are wrong or inconsistent than to agree with what people are saying, and since you're arguing against catboi and for marci, i end up doing the opposite
I'm saying I didn't agree with some of the points in your case, not that I disagreed with its' conclusion (Catboi being scum)
not sure I'm confident enough to commit to a Catboi elim yet though

Also I just noticed Norwee is still the person with the third highest post count he literally died day 1
Speaking of day 1 it started literally a month ago??? what??? feels like 2 weeks at most wow

[Meuh]

When Not_Mafia puts the "VFP or Catboi" choice into the thread. Scum team catboi+VFP have no choice but to cross vote. But Marci could have agreed with me, and tried to shift the decision to catboi. In that scenario, I was the one being vocal about it not being VFP, so I would have been the obvious partner for him, not her.

Very good point actually

[Meuh]

All of Lukewarm's new points resonate with me very much
and I do think Marci's the kind of player who would come to her partner's defense, I don't think she would be throwing her partner under the bus and moving on, and if she was she'd have been more blatant about it instead of picking this awkward middle ground of contributing to VFP's elim, but also not getting much towncred out of it.
Like if you present scum!Marci with 3 options:
A) Take the opportunity to jump onto Catboi, turn the tides and likely save VFP
B) Start bussing VFP for that juicy towncred
C) Stay on VFP, let your partner die and barely get any towncred out of it
Why would she pick C?

[Meuh]

I'm down to hammer test rn

[Meuh]

I'm town!

[Meuh]

2 days left and I still don't know who I want elimed MELO is too hard I really wish I was dead rn
You're shocked, Catboi?

[Meuh]

He put both in his bottom 3, made a case against pear, then said he would rather elim Marci over catboi.

So elim priority was pear > Marci > catboi

You put too much stock in hollow words, and not enough in actions. So he said he'd prefer to lim her - what steps did he take towards actually making that happen?

You're viewing the game in overly simplistic terms . This tends to come from a lack of experience. Scum try to obscure connections between them. That's part of the game. You're seeing all the light distancing that took place between marci and her teammate, and assuming it somehow unaligns them, when in fact the opposite is true - they expressed suspicion of each other throughout the game but avoided exerting real pressure. That's textbook distancing. But you haven't played enough to realize this, you see something as basic as me misreading VFP and assuming we must be teamed because of that, when the opposite is true - I rarely ever defend a teammate the way I did VFP.

Actions speak louder than words is something you should always keep in mind, yep!
Luke, Marci's behaviour day 1 towards Sama and the scumread she expressed do not somehow clear the pair, it's an early day 1 read with no action taken from there until Marci picks the read back up and votes VFP in mid-day 2, I don't understand how partners lightly pressuring each other is somehow clearing, especially since as Catboi said, scum partners are TERRIFIED of being paired up and defending each other.
Basically scumteams wanna maximize the degree to which they can assure the other's safety while also maximizing the distancing, and you seem to be overvaluing the "keeping safe" part because of some light pressure with no real action, and undervaluing the distancing aspect.
scum!Marci wouldn't be going
"Ohhh I think Sama is town I don't understand why people scumread him it doesn't make sense to me "

[Meuh]

VOTE: marcistar

I don't have time to respond in full right now, I'll be back after dinner. I'd appreciate it if you let me talk before making any decision.

Will do! Not planning on hammering anytime soon

[Meuh]

@Meuh, I think we are confirmed town-teammates now

I claim masons with Lukewarm, all other PR claims are fake, N_MxMarci scumteam incoming

Spoiler:

This is a joke

[Meuh]

I also felt like catboi's case against Marci required some mental gymnastics, and even required him to leave out some of her posts.

I'm the doc, I was on Pear, now vote VFP or catboi

So pears town okai. At this point its looking more like a VFP X Lukewarm.

Here again she's trying to tie lukewarm to VFP before he flips. Remember what I said about how scum like to tie people to their partners preflip? This feels like more of that.

{snip}

this game feels so solved already should we just end phase now..?

I think the only other thing we could do before we pass the vote is for Meuh, Pear, and Marci to all voice their opinion on me vs catboi tomorrow, just in case the vote on T3 does not end the game. In that scenario, which ever one of you do die overnight will have left something to help Day 4

I feel like it would be more likely you, i feel like catbois too helpful to be scum.

I'm so stressed rn because of classes i'm sorry i haven't been here so often. i feel so useless.

But now, here, on day 3, after VFP has flipped, marci doesn't mention anything of her VFPxLukewarm read from the day before, she's content to let us hang back and eliminate T3 without much protest. She barely mentions he read from the day beore, not even to say she's changed it, and that to me is suspicious.

Right here, catboi's case completely ignores the fact that she had T3 listed as her number 1 scum read for almost all of Day 3 ( 485 / 513 / 549 / 552), and also when she said that in her mind VFP's partners were narrowed down to me/T3 before VFP flipped (771)

Catboi skipped over all of that, and tried to make is seem suspicious that she would be okay with T3 vote on Day3, because he cherry picked the single post she made where she only mentioned me+vfp and did not mention T3

Dead honest, here is how I operate: I look through people's ISOs and ctrl + F for mentions of flipped scum. that was how I pulled posts from marcistar. At that point in time, my main concern is not going over everything she said in explicit detail and making note of every post. At that point in time, I did not know who was mafia either. I was looking to solve between you and marcistar (Meuh wasn't a realistic possibility in my mind), and so I was looking for things that proved suspicious. So I zeroed in on posts that were important to me. That post in particular leapt out at me. If I gloss over the details it's not by design. But I don't think what you point out changes anything at all. In particular you seem to be giving 771 far too much credit - she explicitly says she thinks you could be partnered with VFP. The fact that she doesn't bring this up at all on day 3 is a sign she's not in a town mindset - she had no concern with solving or trying to look at the evidence, she just went with the flow and let us wagon T3 because it was necessary to win the game.

Right, it is a bit odd that Marci didn't push Lukewarm afterwards

Meuh, do you have any questions for me? From my point of view you're the decider here but I don't actually know if you want me to say anything.

I don't even know anymore I'm in a constant state of pain and self-doubt uhh
How would you explain 1034? Why didn't Marci jump onto you there?

[Meuh]

Spoiler:

He put both in his bottom 3, made a case against pear, then said he would rather elim Marci over catboi.

So elim priority was pear > Marci > catboi

You put too much stock in hollow words, and not enough in actions. So he said he'd prefer to lim her - what steps did he take towards actually making that happen?

You're viewing the game in overly simplistic terms . This tends to come from a lack of experience. Scum try to obscure connections between them. That's part of the game. You're seeing all the light distancing that took place between marci and her teammate, and assuming it somehow unaligns them, when in fact the opposite is true - they expressed suspicion of each other throughout the game but avoided exerting real pressure. That's textbook distancing. But you haven't played enough to realize this, you see something as basic as me misreading VFP and assuming we must be teamed because of that, when the opposite is true - I rarely ever defend a teammate the way I did VFP.

Actions speak louder than words is something you should always keep in mind, yep!
Luke, Marci's behaviour day 1 towards Sama and the scumread she expressed do not somehow clear the pair, it's an early day 1 read with no action taken from there until Marci picks the read back up and votes VFP in mid-day 2, I don't understand how partners lightly pressuring each other is somehow clearing, especially since as Catboi said, scum partners are TERRIFIED of being paired up and defending each other.
Basically scumteams wanna maximize the degree to which they can assure the other's safety while also maximizing the distancing, and you seem to be overvaluing the "keeping safe" part because of some light pressure with no real action, and undervaluing the distancing aspect.
scum!Marci wouldn't be going
"Ohhh I think Sama is town I don't understand why people scumread him it doesn't make sense to me "

I think that you guys are misunderstanding my own position. I do not think that the Marci/Sama/VFP interactions clear her... And my actual thoughts on their interactions were a very small part of the whole path that lead me to the conclusion that catboi=scum.

Overall, I just think that the case against Catboi is stronger. To quote back Catboi

Ultimately this is all just speculationand I think there's always a scenario where anyone could have done something as scum, but it's your job to decide who is more likely to be scum

I went through, and examined catboi, built a whole case on how I could see them as a scum team - see post 1021 - and despite seeing a strong case for a catboi-VFP partner pair, I kept examining all possibilities.

My next step was to look over catboi's case against Marci - and overall, thought it was a weak case. Like it required a lot of mental gymnastics to conclude. See 1037 for an example of where I felt like his case was lacking, but over all it felt like in order to build his case against her, he had to cherry-pick his posts, and ignore posts that would have countered his case - instead of explaining how his case was correct despite those other posts.

But I did not stop there, I went into the Marci/VFP/Sama joint iso, specifically in the mind set of "I am going to build a case that they are partners." And to be clear, I did not even come to the conclusion "these interactions can't come from partners." I said, that I was not able to build a good case that they are partner. While similar on the surface, there is a distinct difference between those two conclusions.

I looked at the cases they both built against each other. I looked at the cases other players presented against both of them (like this is how I found that quote where pear called the scum team as VFP+catboi lol). And then tried to personally build my own case against both of them. And then I compared everything I saw against both of them, and came to the conclusion that Catboi's case seemed stronger/more likely.

So let's not boil my whole thought process down to "Marci scum read Sama/VFP, so they can't be partners" - because that is a gross oversimplification.

I mean I think building a case

against

Marci and letting me and Catboi reply to it would probably help us develop our thoughts on Marci's alignment as a group better than one defending her, even if you're not confident in the case you're making, I think it'd be better for game progression to have 2 different angles being contemplated

I don't think that's your whole case but when ~1/3 of 1025, the post where you make a case for Marci being town is arguing that point, I feel like debunking it is pretty relevant?

[Meuh]

Can I vote Marci safely? There's 2 on Catboi and 1 on Marci rn right?
Marci scum makes so much more sense to me and I don't wanna stop myself from voting who I think is scum because of some bias I randomly thought up
If we lose because Catboi's really good at building solid cases and arguing, then that's a loss I'm willing to take, idc, but it's exhausting to act like Marci isn't the more likely scum here
Luke I'm 100% willing to take the blame for the loss if Marci's town at this point, if Catboi's scum he's played this game very well and has pocketed me perfectly

[Meuh]

Tbh elim me over Catboi, that's probably better for the game, unless he's town and my read is off, but I would

NEVER

make an incorrect read

I don’t think you r scum wither way Catboi. So that vote is meh, but i’m still feeling like N_M could be town.

I mean that's understandable if you don't believe me, it's not like I'd claim it's the strongest case even if I feel it's my best lead right now.

Tbh elim me over Catboi, that's probably better for the game, unless he's town and my read is off, but I would

NEVER

make an incorrect read

You should generally never offer yourself up for elimination like this, especially when it's far from guaranteed who the wagon will be on. After all, you know you're town while anyone else is just a guess. You are right that I'm town here, but I hardly claim to be some great scumhunter, my reads are typically not great.

My main worry here is that Norwee stays fixated on me if we're both still here tomorrow. That fixation could be problematic, cause then it could detract from our ability to well, find scum later down the line. If getting rid of me now will lead to more productive days soon then ig there's worse than that. Not my preferred outcome but meh

If my elim is inevitable, wouldn't getting it over with ASAP best? Idk I just feel like if I'm trapped to be elimed, it'll probably better for you guys to shift your focus somewhere else as much as possible.

Lukewarm I genuinely can't see how a scumteam could look at these posts and still think I was a jailkeeper candidate and even if I wasn't the least likely to be JK, I think with the benefit of me being a widespread townread, Marci can set up the game so town is most likely to stick to the scumpool that excludes her. I don't see how anyone else would be a better claim for her to be making there.

[Meuh]

VOTE:

Marci

[Meuh]

VFP makes this post right after:

I'm not CC here.
So Pear is actually town then. Catboi is flipping red here.

This is not a post scum who is bussing into autoloss makes.

I have addressed this as well... VFP making that post is the exact reason why T3 was eliminated over you yesterday. Once the cross vote happened, I admit that VFP pushed hard on you. But imo, if you think one of the scum is going out that day, then your best bet is to make sure the thread does not think it is possible for the two of you to be partners. And it came close to working. We all voted out T3 over you because of how VFP handled the end of that day. And I think that it would have carried through to getting me voted out, if not for the fact that Not_Mafia made it so clear her scum read me that everyone decided he must have tracked me.[/quote]
A slight bit of towncred on day 3 is irrelevant compared to an auto-loss on day 2 though? Like yes there are benefits to this, but unless you can explain that the towncred was worth the risk, your counter-argument doesn't mean much here.
Catboi almost got elimed at the end of the day, why would VFP allow that? No amount of towncred makes up for literally losing the game from his rber being eliminated.

[Meuh]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA PLEASE TELL ME WE WON

[Meuh]

Hope you're not trolling. Anyway, I'm off for the night

gn!

[Meuh]

this game has been a roller-coaster but it was very fun! thanks everyone for being a part of it and to the host especially! sorry you had to keep up with whatever the hell was the second half of day 2 plus voting history was nice to have
also heading off to sleep, hopefully neither of you are lying (

although scum luke would be hilarious

)

[Meuh]

can i ask weird weird question thooooo

Spoiler:

one that isnt specifically related to this game ;-;

go ahead

[Meuh]

"Marcistar is kinda obvtown and i will laugh if they get limmed and flip town today."