Newbie 2067 - Pizza! - End!

[Pavowski]

Good lord, how is this thread 4 pages deep already? I haven't even had the chance to RVS VOTE: Lukewarm yet, and I've been dying to. So there you go!

[Pavowski]

@Zyla I used to like pineapple on pizza until I realized I was just doing it to upset people. I now recognize this topping arrangement as trash

[Pavowski]

So why ask it?

Right now it looks like you asked an RQS question to try and gauge alignment and then voted for somebody who hadn't had a chance to interact yet, and then dodged followup questions about it.

To be honest, I had two thoughts come up, and one was that question that meant little for the game, and playing how I would normally do, usually RVS.

See, the amusing thing about this is that that question is actually one that could be pretty informative. How confident are

you

abut winning?

How could anybody have any degree of confidence about anything before the first body hits the floor?

And even if they did, why would they share it?

And even if they shared, why should anybody believe it?

And even if they did believe it, why would they share THAT?

This is fun... D1 is wild

[Pavowski]

Speaking of reads, can I hear more from Azeru/Pawoski? I don't have anything on these 2(mainly Pawoski) since they've posted about combined 10 times

I have a really hard time forming reads when there is so much posting going on based on so little actual information. Y'all, it's early and you're acting like we're gonna break the game open here D1.

Granted I guess that's the way the game gets played here but I'm used to the NK being the first bit of info the village gets.

For now I'm just checking vibes and getting a feel for people. There is a lot of time before we have to make any decisions. But since apparently the real game has started and jokey playtime is over, I'll go ahead and UNVOTE: Lukewarm.

[Pavowski]

Also you dudes can call me Pav if you prefer

[Pavowski]

Unvote, Vote HockeyFan

Please for the love of god announce that

this vote puts HockeyFan at E-1

or at lest say l1 and then tell them to clime.

This is way too early for anyone to be claiming

you scared if they start ?

Okay, y'all wanted a read? Antagonism is scummy. VOTE: Cyrus

[Pavowski]

Unvote, Vote HockeyFan

Please for the love of god announce that

this vote puts HockeyFan at E-1

or at lest say l1 and then tell them to clime.

This is way too early for anyone to be claiming

you scared if they start ?

Claiming early is bad for us...

saids who? we know theirs only two prs so if scum slip and clime something then the real prs will know and bam caught the scum.

I think says you?

i think as town we should draw the nk it protects the pr so they can help solve stuff for us.

If a PR claims a PR role, then the scum team can kill them. If a VT claims VT, then the scum team can avoid killing them, and be more likely to kill a PR

This, exactly. If you're town why the heck would you want people to start claiming? Scum already have a 2/7 chance of hitting a PR but we want to force claims early day 1 and start doing their work for them?

[Pavowski]

every one will clime vt unless its scum then they aim at pr role but smart scum know this and say vt any way. so yes even if we say clime and the person saids they are pr then chances are they are not.

I do not even begin to comprehend this logic. Basically you're saying everybody will/should claim VT?

And this is an argument for forcing claims?

[Pavowski]

@HockeyFan what’s your opinion of the game so far?

Idk what u mean by "opinion". You asking for my reads or just my general opinion of the game?

Opinion of the game so far.

Okay well its been a pretty fun game, everyone has been chill, and there have been some productive comments/reads which I have been able to make reads of. I didnt think cyrus's "reaction test" was needed and it was a waste of time, but I'm still leaning null on him

oh are you trying to shad . i think i found some town with that reaction test . makeing it easyer for me to short

No, I'm not trying to shade you, while u may have found some town from that reaction test, most of the posts were NAI. If this is your way of scumreading, then thats fine but It was not smth I do/was expecting.

i have to change the way i play. every game other wise people use meta.

Basically advertising that every single post is a performance.

Not sure if crazy or crazy like fox

This basically makes me feel like he could be deliberately drawing a target on his back.

I'ma stop trying to read Cyrus, it's making my head hurt

[Pavowski]

pav pins me as scum

I dont like this at all. Pav has made about 1-2 reads and his read on u was pretty genuine and came from a town perspective so what part of their reaction do u think is scum?

I don't know how the hell to read Cyrus actually, he could be scum just flooding the thread with smoke or a VT trying to draw the NK or get lynched

[Pavowski]

I nominate that we move on from this discussion with Cyrus about his antics here. His schtick is weird but we all get the point.

Scum or not, getting wrapped around the axle this way is not pro-village

[Pavowski]

To that end, hey Zyla, are you scum with Luke this game? The universe is a funny place and if this game turns out that way it'll give me the tingles.

[Pavowski]

I nominate that we move on from this discussion with Cyrus about his antics here. His schtick is weird but we all get the point.

Scum or not, getting wrapped around the axle this way is not pro-village

This seems pretty fuckin towny. town points from me, But quick question, how are u planning to be proactive and move on from cyrus. u have any reads to share with us?

Inasmuch as I think most early analysis ends up going out the window, I'm gonna sit down and make some notes tomorrow or Saturday as I'll be back at home and not posting from my phone (not recommended).

But here's a quick 3.

Luke is sharp so I'm gonna have my eye on him but I have zero "read" yet. If he's mafia, I'm skurrd.

Zyla was mafia in our last game so law of averages says she's town this time. Since RNG can always be trusted, this feels ironclad to me.

And you really want to know reads from a lot of people. Which either means you're like me and you want to watch and soak it in before forming too many of your own reads, or you're mafia trying to pocket me. I flipped a coin and it says you're the latter, so welcome to my FOS.

There you go, 3 garbage reads. Take then with as much salt as you like, I know I will.

[Pavowski]

A few actual reads now that I'm less sleepy this morning. They still suck, but I'm feeling less snarky than last night.

STD (lol weird to call you that but I'm sticking with it) feels to be slow-playing a bit. I get a towny vibe but it's not based on much.

(I've just realized that I'm gonna say "it's not based on much" for basically everything I'm about to post so ... Just assume it)

Strange has a lot of posts aimed at Hockeyfan. Like,

a lot.

Could be scum trying to distance.

Meanwhile Hockeyfan is pushing Strange as a pretty solid townread. Seems like a Strange scum read (above) would necessitate a Hockeyfan scum read. Then again hockey reads me as town, which is town, since he's right. I have confused myself here. Putting a pin in this.

Haschel initially struck me as slightly scummy for his interaction with Strange in 127, but upon further review that feels very towny to me.

Cyrus - I said enough last night.

Luke - not sure yet.

Zyla - inclined to read as town but I need to try to separate out the meta.

Azeru - in 135 points out, rightly, that we somehow managed to get Hockey to e-1, and calls for us to chill the hell out. Read: town. But also establishes as somebody watching and tracking the game very closely. Read:scum. End result, I dunno. Neutral I guess.

[Pavowski]

The tl;dr version of 268:

STD slight town
Strange slight scum
Hockey slight scum
Haschel slight town
Cyrus heckin wildcard lunatic
Luke null
Zyla null
Azeru null

There you go, pick me apart!

[Pavowski]

Zyla - inclined to read as town but I need to try to separate out the meta.

Oh, kept reading up, and I see that you are trying to read her without meta.

I would be leary of reading her meta anyway, as iirc last game was her first on site, so she'll be making adjustments regardless.

Luke you buying Cyrus's toaster leavings then?

[Pavowski]

it was a joke

Jokes are not allowed, this game got real 30 picoseconds after the mod opened the thread

[Pavowski]

UNVOTE: cyrus

[Pavowski]

Oh yeah the vote counter reminded me

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Save The Dragons

Why, though?

[Pavowski]

I am probably going to be absent from the thread for the next 24ish hours. Having an allergic reaction to my cat's new flea medicine, completely with severe migraine and nausea.

Will not be reading any threads for the near future.

Migraines are no joke dude. Take 'er easy.

[Pavowski]

Oh yeah the vote counter reminded me

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Save The Dragons

Why, though?

This: 310

I guess I could've figured that out if I scrolled back a little bit. Have I mentioned posting from a phone is suboptimal?

I don't like leaving my vote in limbo so I'm gonna put it on my top scum read for the moment. VOTE: strange

I smell a distancing ploy between them and Hockey.

[Pavowski]

I see we're still on Cyrus's messiness for some reason. Folks, there are better things to focus your mental energies on. He wants the thread full of smoke for some reason, and whether you think he's town or think he's scum, you're letting him run the game by engaging with the smoke. I will again recommend that we move on for now.

I've been driving all day, but I'll dive into some more reads this evening now that I'm back at home. (And back on a computer I can actually post properly from.)

Also @Luke, the bit about Zyla being town this time after mafia in last game was a joke, of course. RNG can never be trusted, unless you're trusting it to be untrustworthy. I keep forgetting sarcasm has been outlawed in this game

[Pavowski]

@Pavowski can you explain what you thought about post 330, with that distancing act?

Correction, what was your thought process that came about when you made post 330?

Sure.

You RVS'd Hockey right out of the gate. Okay, random voting is a thing, cool.
In #49 you say you're actually wondering about them.
You accidentally answer a question directed at Hockeyfan (80). (I believe this was innocent.)
In #86 you ask Hockeyfan why Luke would defend you. (This is odd.)
You have a few posts about partners, then reiterate your question from #86 in #109.
In #138 you ask why Haschel is going in on Hockeyfan.
In #198 you ask Hockeyfan his opinion of the game.

Throughout all that you interact with the thread in general but seem to be *really* focused on Hockeyfan. You get a little bit bogged down with the Cyrus stuff (who hasn't), then you turn your attention on me, apparently because I pointed out your interest in Hockeyfan.

You sus him, then you defend him, then you buddy up to him. It smells fishy.

I'm on you at present because you're the fishiest thing I see in the thread so far, outside of the red herring I am trying very hard not to waste any more brain power on right now.

[Pavowski]

Pav- has moved from weak town to null/weak scum for me as of now. They do indeed have reads but they're confident not in them at all and from my expericnes, usually town is more confident in their reads.

This goes back a little bit but I'm doing ISOs and this statement just seems so weird to me. I'm still pretty new but .... you expect town to have confidence in their reads at this point?

That seems bizarre to me. Doubt is to be embraced. It forces you to keep searching.

So I'm gonna save confidence until I have anything I'm confident about.

[Pavowski]

@Pav, can you expain rq again why u have a slight town read on STD.

Also Strange, you dont seem to have attempted STD yet? So what are your thoughts on them?

Sure.

Tone strikes me as genuine. Is relaxed enough to make jokes, including RickRolling us right into the ditch (lmao).

Seems to be slowplaying, but seems to be searching for ways to a) read people favorably and b) justify any sus he sees on other players.

Come to think of it, that actually seems a lot scummier than I first saw it.

Well, it wasn't much of a read in the first place. Ultimately there's not much to go on either way.

[Pavowski]

@Pavowski can you explain what you thought about post 330, with that distancing act?

Correction, what was your thought process that came about when you made post 330?

Sure.

You RVS'd Hockey right out of the gate. Okay, random voting is a thing, cool.
In #49 you say you're actually wondering about them.
You accidentally answer a question directed at Hockeyfan (80). (I believe this was innocent.)
In #86 you ask Hockeyfan why Luke would defend you. (This is odd.)
You have a few posts about partners, then reiterate your question from #86 in #109.
In #138 you ask why Haschel is going in on Hockeyfan.
In #198 you ask Hockeyfan his opinion of the game.

Throughout all that you interact with the thread in general but seem to be *really* focused on Hockeyfan. You get a little bit bogged down with the Cyrus stuff (who hasn't), then you turn your attention on me, apparently because I pointed out your interest in Hockeyfan.

You sus him, then you defend him, then you buddy up to him. It smells fishy.

I'm on you at present because you're the fishiest thing I see in the thread so far, outside of the red herring I am trying very hard not to waste any more brain power on right now.

Let me clear this up really quick.

To explain post #86, his logic felt a bit weird, based off saying Luke defending me, which to me seemed like a joke post. As for post #138, it was a question that I felt could in turn gauge their intent and see if it was reasonable or not.

As for the changes in reads, that, is mostly up to reading players for me. Given enough time, I change reads based off what the person does that I see as Townie or Scummy. I can’t change if you think I am buddying, but I am not.

I’m wondering why you didn’t say this earlier right now, considering the original post said very weird.

I mean, I was giving out a few brief reads since a few people wanted to see them. I wasn't making a big deal of it (there's something to be said for not sharing EVERYTHING you're thinking), but you did ask.

And this is me making a note that you're particularly concerned in how we all see this relationship.

Of course reads change! Mine are changing all the time. It's the how, and the when, and the why, that are interesting.

[Pavowski]

Cool. You did bring it up, though.

[Pavowski]

When your both in the lobby ... I took a look at sight chat . You both been there for hours

Eh, I did have the tab open but I was doing other things while keeping it open, I know this is all WIFOM but response time especially in fourm is NAI

Just gonna say I also tend to leave the tab open and would have to agree, seeing somebody online but not posting doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[Pavowski]

In regards to whom? If you've got a theory I need it spelled out a little more ... you quoted a lot of people in 472 and I'm having trouble making sense of it

[Pavowski]

Wait. I said I was going to ignore him...

But then he flooded the thread with 20+posts since the last time I checked in

Yeah same Luke but at least these are potentially interesting and seem to be actually trying to figure things out as opposed to borderline trolls

Also nobody else is posting this morning so...

[Pavowski]

Honestly I'm not sure what to discuss right now. I was hoping that HC would say something that could get some sort of conversation started, but it's been a while since we've seen him

I was just thinking it's been a while since we heard from haschel. I have his last post Friday at 3:45 EST. Is it time for a prod?

[Pavowski]

Cyrus looks to be quoting every single post, in order at this point....

Is it possible to make it to where I see everyone's posts except for cyrus for the time being?

That would be so helpful honestly, but no, I don't think so

[Pavowski]

Cyrus looks to be quoting every single post, in order at this point....

Is it possible to make it to where I see everyone's posts except for cyrus for the time being?

That would be so helpful honestly, but no, I don't think so

Actually if you go to your user settings you can set him as a "foe" and apparently it will hide their posts? Haven't tried it yet but that might do it.

[Pavowski]

Actually looking back, there hasn't seemed to be much interactions between Pav and Azeru other than 1 read from Pav awkwardly null reading them?

I'm curious, what reads awkward about that read to you?

Its defintly not conclusive but in 268, he goes from Tring back to giving reasons why they're scum just a few words later which is ??? His scum read didnt even have any reasoning on why hes scum fwiw so I have 0 clue why based on that, Pav decides to read Az as neutral but could be just me?

To me that seems fairly normal, he's got some town vibes, but also some scummy vibes, and they cancel out

Eh fair enough, but the progression of the TR -> SR is a bit weird

Just to provide some perspective, my reads are as shallow as they come right now and are likely to stay that way until there's some hard evidence (a NK, a claim that can be reasonably assessed, etc). To quantify them in an arbitrary way, I'd say my reads at the moment are plus or minus a point or two on, say, a hundred-point scale.

In other words, (and I would think this would go without saying, but let's just be clear), an early towny read from last Thursday in no way precludes a scummy read on Sunday, or vice versa. I'll say that for myself, but I'll also say I assume it to be true for most players. You *should* be changing your mind at this point. You *should* be uncertain in your reads. If you think there's a contradiction there -- in light of, again, absolutely no hard evidence at this point -- you're welcome to think it.

[Pavowski]

And they say I'm hard to follow. So how do you feel about lukewarm votein them?

dont like it much tbh, but I think Luke voting Azeru is simply a TvT interaction

Show me how town like you are and vote haschel so we can pressure him in to talking.

eh sure why not but by EOD i am pivoting my vote back to STD

UNVOTE:
VOTE: haschel

You know, pressure does not really work if you say that you don't plan on following through with it

VOTE: haschel

This is E-1

Talk to us! Talk to us! Talk to us!

I am inclined to agree, what an absolutely odd comment to make.

[Pavowski]

i think intent to hammer might get his attention. but how long before we see him respond?

Given the current wagon on him, I would sus anybody giving intent to hammer right now.

Sus *hard*.

[Pavowski]

I am just wondering, what would we get, from voting me right now?

What's the point of this question? Specifically when asked now. The only votes you've had on you since post 330 have been Pav and Luke, and they've just been sitting there. Cyrus voted you for a quick stint between 435 and 449, but that was for all of two hours and only 14 posts between them. I just don't get why you're bringing this up now.


As an aside, looking into the above point, I noticed something. Cyrus has made 9 total votes in the game so far, and the only person he has not put a vote on is Pav. A quick history of his votes:

Spoiler:

VOTE: azeru

VOTE: hockeyfan

VOTE: zyla

VOTE: strange

VOTE: HockeyFan

VOTE: Haschel Cedricson

VOTE: std

VOTE: lukewarm

VOTE: HaschelCedricson

And a history of him reading Pav:

Spoiler:

Unvote, Vote HockeyFan

Please for the love of god announce that

this vote puts HockeyFan at E-1

or at lest say l1 and then tell them to clime.

This is way too early for anyone to be claiming

you scared if they start ?

Okay, y'all wanted a read? Antagonism is scummy. VOTE: Cyrus

your new so i'll let it slide however people do that on here.

every one will clime vt unless its scum then they aim at pr role but smart scum know this and say vt any way. so yes even if we say clime and the person saids they are pr then chances are they are not.

I do not even begin to comprehend this logic. Basically you're saying everybody will/should claim VT?

And this is an argument for forcing claims?

your right 1 town point for you.

pav pins me as scum

pav pins me as scum

I dont like this at all. Pav has made about 1-2 reads and his read on u was pretty genuine and came from a town perspective so what part of their reaction do u think is scum?

they dont post much and it seems they are looking for easy votes trying to get a mis lynch

Oh yeah the vote counter reminded me

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Save The Dragons

Why, though?

This: 310

I guess I could've figured that out if I scrolled back a little bit. Have I mentioned posting from a phone is suboptimal?

I don't like leaving my vote in limbo so I'm gonna put it on my top scum read for the moment. VOTE: strange

I smell a distancing ploy between them and Hockey.

I'm starting to feel pev is just looking for any reason to vote any one . However strange has been given me where vibs.so this could be early busing

town
Std

Moving up to town
Pavowski
Strange

Null
The guy with the sea do
G avatar
Azure
Zyla

Scum
Lean
HockeyFan
Lukewarm

Odd I don't know Pavowski. Aside from this game but we thought the same thing

@Pavowski nothing pokes out at you on pages 3,4 and 5

Now, I am making an active decision to not expend too much energy trying to read Cyrus, but I do find it interesting that with all his vote tossing, alongside the fact that he pinned Pav as scum a few times, his vote never ended up onto Pav. Another part of it I find odd is the shift between Cyrus' 169/189 and his 222/226. Pav made a single post in between all of that (212) that was just shading/distancing from Cyrus. Which, to be fair, comes up in a good number of his posts.

I was just reviewing votes myself and noticed the same thing and I do not like it.

[Pavowski]

I am just wondering, what would we get, from voting me right now?

What's the point of this question? Specifically when asked now. The only votes you've had on you since post 330 have been Pav and Luke, and they've just been sitting there. Cyrus voted you for a quick stint between 435 and 449, but that was for all of two hours and only 14 posts between them. I just don't get why you're bringing this up now.


As an aside, looking into the above point, I noticed something. Cyrus has made 9 total votes in the game so far, and the only person he has not put a vote on is Pav. A quick history of his votes:

Spoiler:

VOTE: azeru

VOTE: hockeyfan

VOTE: zyla

VOTE: strange

VOTE: HockeyFan

VOTE: Haschel Cedricson

VOTE: std

VOTE: lukewarm

VOTE: HaschelCedricson

And a history of him reading Pav:

Spoiler:

Unvote, Vote HockeyFan

Please for the love of god announce that

this vote puts HockeyFan at E-1

or at lest say l1 and then tell them to clime.

This is way too early for anyone to be claiming

you scared if they start ?

Okay, y'all wanted a read? Antagonism is scummy. VOTE: Cyrus

your new so i'll let it slide however people do that on here.

every one will clime vt unless its scum then they aim at pr role but smart scum know this and say vt any way. so yes even if we say clime and the person saids they are pr then chances are they are not.

I do not even begin to comprehend this logic. Basically you're saying everybody will/should claim VT?

And this is an argument for forcing claims?

your right 1 town point for you.

pav pins me as scum

pav pins me as scum

I dont like this at all. Pav has made about 1-2 reads and his read on u was pretty genuine and came from a town perspective so what part of their reaction do u think is scum?

they dont post much and it seems they are looking for easy votes trying to get a mis lynch

Oh yeah the vote counter reminded me

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Save The Dragons

Why, though?

This: 310

I guess I could've figured that out if I scrolled back a little bit. Have I mentioned posting from a phone is suboptimal?

I don't like leaving my vote in limbo so I'm gonna put it on my top scum read for the moment. VOTE: strange

I smell a distancing ploy between them and Hockey.

I'm starting to feel pev is just looking for any reason to vote any one . However strange has been given me where vibs.so this could be early busing

town
Std

Moving up to town
Pavowski
Strange

Null
The guy with the sea do
G avatar
Azure
Zyla

Scum
Lean
HockeyFan
Lukewarm

Odd I don't know Pavowski. Aside from this game but we thought the same thing

@Pavowski nothing pokes out at you on pages 3,4 and 5

Now, I am making an active decision to not expend too much energy trying to read Cyrus, but I do find it interesting that with all his vote tossing, alongside the fact that he pinned Pav as scum a few times, his vote never ended up onto Pav. Another part of it I find odd is the shift between Cyrus' 169/189 and his 222/226. Pav made a single post in between all of that (212) that was just shading/distancing from Cyrus. Which, to be fair, comes up in a good number of his posts.

I was just reviewing votes myself and noticed the same thing and I do not like it.

I realize it's convenient for me to say this right after Az points it out, but I saw Cyrus calling for somebody to claim intent and it seemed a good time to actually tabulate votes. Dude has literally voted 9 times by my count. Not sure why he's leaving me out of his finger-pointing, as he's certainly shaded me enough. The only reason I'm paying attention to him right now is he's pushed this wagon on Haschel and it got rolling

fast

.

[Pavowski]

Actually

VOTE: strange

Haschel wagon averted with this vote

[Pavowski]

Actually

VOTE: strange

Haschel wagon averted with this vote

And? Do you have a point?

I don't actively scum read haschel, I just am mainly concerned by his lurking.

No shade intended. I was just pointing out that Haschel got to e-1 in a hurry and you moving your vote brings us back from that edge.
I actively scum read strange at this point, and if she is trying to egg people into hammering haschel, I don't want to leave it at e-1

Very much do not like the vague shade coming from Pav.

[Pavowski]

Actually

VOTE: strange

Haschel wagon averted with this vote

And? Do you have a point?

I don't actively scum read haschel, I just am mainly concerned by his lurking.

No shade intended. I was just pointing out that Haschel got to e-1 in a hurry and you moving your vote brings us back from that edge.
I actively scum read strange at this point, and if she is trying to egg people into hammering haschel, I don't want to leave it at e-1

Very much do not like the vague shade coming from Pav.

Sorry for blank post. Phone acting up.

No shade intended, I was just pointing out that Haschel had gotten. To e-1 too fast for my tastes, and you moving your vote brought us back from that ledge

[Pavowski]

I will come back later tonight. My grandpa died 30 minutes ago and that has knocked this down my priority list.

Please don’t kill me before then.

Damn. Condolences, man.

[Pavowski]

It's been a day, all, sorry I haven't posted. I'm gonna reread the past day and see what shakes loose and have some thoughts shortly.

[Pavowski]

Sorry to make a 2nd post devoid of real content. RL got out of hand today and the thread went to 100 mph again... It'll be tomorrow morning before I can post anything of substance.

Sorry dudes.

[Pavowski]

Okay, a lot has happened since I was able to substantively post so I'm gonna try to catch up with a few posts this morning.

In 658 STD says they're willing to hammer Strange, which is not an intent to hammer. When votes come off Strange, they actually drop a vote on Strange. Not sure that's indicative of anything, but it struck me as an interesting progression.

In 690, and more in-depth in 698, Luke voices doubt about Strange's play, and this seems to be defusing some of the heat behind that wagon. (I think I mixed metaphors there, but w/e.) I actually want to counter that thinking, not because I am convinced Strange is scum, but because there are mitigating factors. Namely Haschel's absence for a few days. Not his fault, but if Haschel were absent from the main thread, it stands to reason they would be absent from the Mafia thread as well.

Let me reiterate, I am not claiming that Strange is defscum or that Hasch is defscum with them. I am saying that Strange

seeming to flail and act alone and uncoached

does not necessarily make them town -- maybe it means their mafia partner hasn't been as present to help them out as they would like.

There is a *lot* of Cyrus/Luke interaction which is basically white noise to me. I don't think there is anything else to be learned from Cyrus, or interactions with him, until our next "day". It is somewhat interesting that Luke seems to agree with this but continues to engage. Making this actually the first time Luke has pinged me in a distinctly scummy way.

I don't like big walls, so I'm gonna break this up and condense more thoughts in another post.

[Pavowski]

Re: Haschel, you guys have gone back and forth with him a bit, and I don't want to reinvent the wheel, I'll just point out some things.

In 765, he says this:

As for why I'm bringing attention to Zyla over Strange, I am declining to answer that at the moment.

Maybe this is a personal thing, but I find this sort of response distinctly scummy. It basically tells the asker "I have more information than you and I'm not sharing it with you for reasons."

And the only people who definitely have any more *hard* information than any of us at this point are the mafia. Cyrus pulled this kind of crap A LOT and I feel the exact same way on those plays.

Now, Haschel has a direct, aggressive style, so maybe this is another of his targeted strikes like we saw earlier in the thread. But it hits me some kind of way.

I will say that I agree with ... Hockey, I think? (Yeah, it was Hockey, 782) who said the Luke/Haschel stuff feels like town on town violence. I'm not particularly scumreading either of them right now.

[Pavowski]

On the one hand, I feel like I did not nearly do justice to all the activity of the last 5 pages or so, but on the other hand, I very much feel like we're beginning to go 'round in circles. If you have questions, ask; I'll answer as best I can.

@Zyla, everything is cool, thanks. It was just a cascade of inconveniences.

[Pavowski]

@Pav - Did you answer my question from 802?

Spoiler: In regards to the white noise

There is a *lot* of Cyrus/Luke interaction which is basically white noise to me. I don't think there is anything else to be learned from Cyrus, or interactions with him, until our next "day". It is somewhat interesting that Luke seems to agree with this but continues to engage. Making this actually the first time Luke has pinged me in a distinctly scummy way.

If you are curious why I started interacting with cyrus more, you can look back at 556-560

I have been trying to minimize it again, but not completely shut it down. I don't know, I would rather do something that may be a little bad for town (making white noise as you say) then be the reason someone is not having fun in the game.

You asked who my top choice is for an elim today. I think it's still Strange, though I'm less confident than I was in my original vote.

[Pavowski]

Math favors a D1 elimination, full stop. We have a chance to take out a mafia before they kill anybody. And since we know who the n1 kill is likely to be (and who our d2 elim should be failing that) we really have the chance to get ahead here.

[Pavowski]

Cyrus’ mindset is so weird and backwards at this point I want to believe he’s intentionally doing that.

He absolutely is intentionally doing it, and has been quite open about the fact

[Pavowski]

[quote="In post 844, Lukewarm"]I think that I am at

Zyla

Azeru
Hockey

Pav

HC
STD

Strange

This list

It's so

pretty

[Pavowski]

There are still two days left in d1. Even though I'm as ready as anybody for the first day to be over, don't let Cyrus rush you.

I don't have any new reads today, I think we've beaten the reading process into the ground at this point.

[Pavowski]

First of all, why should I even reveal my role right now. That's a last resort, and right now I'm not going to give scum anything just to survive. Plus, you'll know my role after I'm dead, so go ahead.

If you have a claim to make, this is the time. Cyrus might be bluffing, but he might have already hammered in the time it takes me to post this.

[Pavowski]

D1 voting went as follows. Each player's votes are listed in order, the number in parentheses being the post in which they voted

Unvotes omitted because I am lazy. Hope I got everything else.

Draw your own conclusions

Votes for d1:

Hockey: Zyla (15), Luke (66), STD (320), Hasch (593), STD (634)

Luke: Zyla (10), Strange (73), Cyrus (92), Strange (266), Hasch (544), Strange (623), Strange (802)

Zyla: Hockey (71)

Strange: Hockey (11), Pav (429), Azeru (542), STD (723)

Haschel: Strange (50), Hockey (132)

Pav: Luke (83), Cyrus (166), Strange (330)

Azeru: Cyrus (237), Strange (629)

STD: Haschel (7), Strange (695), Hockey (716), Strange (891)

Cyrus: Azeru (97), Hockey (130), Zyla (424), Strange (435), Hockey (449), Haschel (454), STD (543), Luke (558), Haschel (583), Strange (649), Hockey (703), STD (805), Strange (859), Luke (888), Strange HAMMER (908)

[Pavowski]

ok based on the fact that no one died, we could have possible 4 greens if doc didnt save cyrus but doc dont out if u did save cyrus, pretty sure luke is also green, no? games looking pretty good?

No death is a good sign but let's not get carried away. Lack of death doesn't necessarily indicate a doctor. (Although I would admit it seems overwhelmingly likely.)

[Pavowski]

JK could have got lucky and hit mafia. Or could have locked up Cyrus to protect him and Cyrus is lying about his check. But the most likely play is the most obvious, Cyrus made himself a target and doc saved him.

In only one of those situations would it make sense for a PR to reveal so I don't want to spend a lot of brain on it right now.

[Pavowski]

Votes for d1:

STD: Haschel (7), Strange (695), Hockey (716), Strange (891)

no deaths well thanks doc who ever you are. lukewarm went no where last night

To clarify:
Did you get "No action"? Or "No result"?

This is a good question. It will let us know if we are dealing with a roleblocker or not

I gave the game another look over night, and right now my biggest suspicion is STD. For most of Day 1 he was very passive/lurky, and then at the end of day, he looks like he was opportunistic with his vote, like his voting does not seem super genuine.

Like when he kept Strange at e-1, after I left the push, like he was hoping it would still go through without me

Spoiler:

....

UNVOTE:

If this is strange's response to being put at e-1, it just doesn't feel like they have a partner?

Like I think that any one in this lobby as Strange's partner would have helped them come up with an angle to push

Maybe everyone I thought was scum before is actually town :/

VOTE: strangematter

When that wagon stalled out, he jumped to the next push on Hockey

Spoiler:

VOTE: hockeyfan

e-2

And then he abandoned that wagon when lost steam, he went back to Strange - and his reasoning looks suspicious to me

Spoiler:

Town
Azeru
Pav
Cyrus

Null (town lean)
Luke
Zyla

Null (scum lean)
Haschel

Scum
Strange
Hockeyfan

i like the wagon composition on strangematter

VOTE: StrangeMatter E-1

He votes for strange because he "likes the wagon composition." Which is a weird reason to join a wagon imo. It is like he avoids saying she is scummy here because he knows she is getting ready to flip town. Like he is trying to absolve himself of the vote -- "I only voted that way because I trusted you guys **points at Azeru, Pav, and me**"

VOTE: std

I was gonna say pretty much exactly this, Luke just made the case better than I could. STD's votes look like they're in search of a wagon.

There are other things that ping me in the votes, but this is my feeling right now.

VOTE: STD

[Pavowski]

Why are u guys voting so early into the day

Since we were lucky enough to get a no-elimination on n1, we are essentially picking up right where we left off after the Strange elimination.

I wouldn't be in a rush to hammer anybody, but this is where I'm starting from today -- what's wrong with putting cards on the table?

[Pavowski]

picking up right where we left off after the Strange elimination.

Yea now that I look back at it, nothing wrong but like I was a bit confused by the speed of your votes. I still want Strange, but I want him to post more to see if he is towny or smth

Strange is dead, dude.

Strange is dead.

[Pavowski]

Starting to think it is just a doc since no one's coming forward which means we have to get today right. Because that means we have a rolecop which means if town don't get it right today we will surely lose.

I know I said I was done engaging with Cyrus antics, but saying this kind of stuff just isn't true and doesn't help us in any way. We are at 8 players now with 2 mafia. If we miselim today, we will be at 7 tonight and presumed 6 tomorrow. At that point we should worry about losing, but not until then. Yet you keep talking like the game is already lost.

Honestly. You need to stop with this.

[Pavowski]

gonna try to give this game the activity it deserves. that said i have friends coming over so i'll try to post tonight

I mean, it *was* Father's Day yesterday, and it *was* Sunday...

[Pavowski]

Well since you and I are here early, Luke, any thoughts on the votes from yesterday? I have some inklings but I'm curious if I'm overthinking and reading too much into it

[Pavowski]

Did you mean ALL votes, or the EoD votes? I remember you posted a list, but have not really looked at it too closely.

Yeah, I meant the list as a whole. I mentioned a few things ping me, I might as well stop being coy.

Zyla: Hockey (71)

Zyla only voting on an early wagon pings me hard. To call it a wagon might be a stretch, though I do think Hockey was the one who got run up to e-1 in a big damn hurry very early in the day.

Haschel: Strange (50), Hockey (132)

Haschel had meta issues in the latter part of the "day" so I'm trying not to read too hard into this. However, upon return he joined in the hard sus on Strange and worked hard to make several reads .... but never voted.

Azeru: Cyrus (237), Strange (629)

These are also very easy votes to make at the time they were made.


Those are the main things that occur to me when I look at the voting.

[Pavowski]

I should clarify that I'm not necessarily saying I know what those things mean yet. I'm just saying these are things that make me go "hmm".

[Pavowski]

Zyla: Hockey (71)

Zyla only voting on an early wagon pings me hard. To call it a wagon might be a stretch, though I do think Hockey was the one who got run up to e-1 in a big damn hurry very early in the day.

I agree that this one stands out, but she also makes it clear repeatedly throughout the day that she is suspicious of Hockey. If anything, I would say she was a bit tunneled on him, which I think is more likely to come from town? Like, wouldn't scum be trying to get a wagon to pass? And she stayed clear of the strange wagon both times it picked up steam

I dunno. I think it makes just as much sense for scum to steer clear of a wagon, if they think the wagon is going through regardless. (This is the same basis for my sus on Haschel.) Your point that she keeps pointing out her own sus on Hockey, though, seems to be more favorable to her.

Haschel: Strange (50), Hockey (132)

Haschel had meta issues in the latter part of the "day" so I'm trying not to read too hard into this. However, upon return he joined in the hard sus on Strange and worked hard to make several reads .... but never voted.

You missed a vote from Haschel in 759 for Zyla.

I am not sure how to feel about Haschel atm. I was suspicious of how he handled Strange/Zyla EoD, but that suspicion was mainly tied to it looking like he might be trying to save strange, which makes less sense for a scum player to do now, knowing Strange's alignment.

Thanks for pointing out my missed vote. I was getting a little fuzzy toward the end of this project.

I realize my little chart doesn't neatly include the EOD vote count, which was:

StrangeMatter (5): Pavowski, Azeru, Lukewarm, Save The Dragons, cyrus62
Save The Dragons (2): HockeyFan, StrangeMatter
HockeyFan (1): Zyla
Zyla (1): Haschel Cedricson

Not Voting (0): None.

So Zyla's on an island voting Hockeyfan, and Haschel's on an island voting Zyla. Given the points we've already made this morning, I find the Haschel vote more interesting.

[Pavowski]

@Luke and @Pav, I know STD is your top scum rn, but who is your 2nd top scum atm?

Difficult to say as there are still a lot of people we haven't heard (much) from here in d2.

In fact, now that I'm saying that, I kind of want to withhold putting another read out there *until* we have some more folks weigh in "today".

[Pavowski]

@STD See 963 for my other pings.

[Pavowski]

He votes for strange because he "likes the wagon composition." Which is a weird reason to join a wagon imo. It is like he avoids saying she is scummy here because he knows she is getting ready to flip town. Like he is trying to absolve himself of the vote -- "I only voted that way because I trusted you guys **points at Azeru, Pav, and me**"

I voted strange because I thought they were scum, i made a comment that i liked the wagon composition. That's not my reasoning, that just made me feel better about voting strange because I was townreading all the people voting strange. now it seems unlikely that the three of you are town since scum probably pushed the strange wagon for a mislim.

Just to clarify, you townread the rest of us on that wagon before, but now you no longer do?

[Pavowski]

I'd like to consider something at this point. And before I even bring it up, I want to make it very very clear:

I AM NOT ACTIVELY ADVOCATING FOR THIS.

Do not

make any claims based on this post alone, I just would like to get everybody's opinion on the thought.

Would a mass claim be potentially useful for us? Here's my thought process: Cyrus has claimed Tracker. I don't know if I entirely believe it, and I think that some other people are in that boat with me if I'm not mistaken. If Cyrus is town, there would be absolutely no reason whatsoever for him to lie and claim Tracker (although he's done other things with no explanation, so I'm taking this with a grain of salt, though I'm humoring it to be true for the purposes of this post). So for situation one, let's pretend that that Cyrus is town.

1) Cyrus is Tracker, mafia can trust this. So like I said at the end of day 1, there is a chance that mafia already knows the setup and what the other PR is. They don't yet know

who

the other PR is, so a mass claim would out that to mafia. On the flipside, if Cyrus really is Tracker, I wouldn't expect any counterclaims on the second PR, so we could get town the information of what setup we're in, and have two confirmed towns in our PRs. In the case that mafia does decide to counterclaim, we have a 50/50 that was can then look over, and at least one mafia that we can take down for sure.

2) Cyrus is mafia, lying about being Tracker, and nobody's counterclaimed yet out of fear of the 50/50, or fear of giving up to mafia that they're a PR. In this situation though, mafia do not know the setup or possible power roles. Although nobody getting night killed has implications, because mafia just choosing not to kill is... questionable. In any case, mass claiming in this situation gets us a counterclaim against Cyrus to have the 50/50 outing him, and again, will give the information of what setup we're in, and have confirmed town in PR once the 50/50 is sorted out.

My other thought behind this is that the past couple of pages feel like there's some mild PR hunting anyways, so why not lean into it and put everything on the table?

I am asking this as a genuine question to more experienced players than myself. Is anything in these scenarios wrong? Am I missing any other major downsides? In my head right now, it feels like the worst case scenario is that we end up with two confirmed towns, and major insight into our most confusing player. Mafia then know who is who, but if Cyrus is Tracker, they've got half of it figured out anyways. Town gets a narrowed down scumlist.

Do the pros outweigh the cons? Is the whole idea banking too much on Cyrus' Tracker claim? If I'm a dumbass please tell me so.

I do not think a FC is in order.

The most likely situation is that we have a tracker (Cyrus) and a doctor (x). We can infer this because Cyrus outed himself d1 and there was no kill n1. (Other situations are possible, but this feels most plausible right now.)

A FC at this point will reveal the doctor, whom the mafia will surely kill n2. If we don't FC, the mafia will be exactly where they were last night -- they know* Cyrus is the tracker, and must choose a target from among the remaining villagers, hoping to hit the doctor, meanwhile knowing Cyrus is tracking them every night.

What does it benefit the rest of town to know who the doctor is right now? Versus what does it benefit the mafia?

Doctor should stay hidden.

Now, if there are big brain plays that I haven't thought about possible, then that calculus may change. But given the most likely scenario, I absolutely think a FC benefits mafia more than town.

[Pavowski]

I'd like to consider something at this point. And before I even bring it up, I want to make it very very clear:

I AM NOT ACTIVELY ADVOCATING FOR THIS.

Do not

make any claims based on this post alone, I just would like to get everybody's opinion on the thought.

Would a mass claim be potentially useful for us? Here's my thought process: Cyrus has claimed Tracker. I don't know if I entirely believe it, and I think that some other people are in that boat with me if I'm not mistaken. If Cyrus is town, there would be absolutely no reason whatsoever for him to lie and claim Tracker (although he's done other things with no explanation, so I'm taking this with a grain of salt, though I'm humoring it to be true for the purposes of this post). So for situation one, let's pretend that that Cyrus is town.

1) Cyrus is Tracker, mafia can trust this. So like I said at the end of day 1, there is a chance that mafia already knows the setup and what the other PR is. They don't yet know

who

the other PR is, so a mass claim would out that to mafia. On the flipside, if Cyrus really is Tracker, I wouldn't expect any counterclaims on the second PR, so we could get town the information of what setup we're in, and have two confirmed towns in our PRs. In the case that mafia does decide to counterclaim, we have a 50/50 that was can then look over, and at least one mafia that we can take down for sure.

2) Cyrus is mafia, lying about being Tracker, and nobody's counterclaimed yet out of fear of the 50/50, or fear of giving up to mafia that they're a PR. In this situation though, mafia do not know the setup or possible power roles. Although nobody getting night killed has implications, because mafia just choosing not to kill is... questionable. In any case, mass claiming in this situation gets us a counterclaim against Cyrus to have the 50/50 outing him, and again, will give the information of what setup we're in, and have confirmed town in PR once the 50/50 is sorted out.

My other thought behind this is that the past couple of pages feel like there's some mild PR hunting anyways, so why not lean into it and put everything on the table?

I am asking this as a genuine question to more experienced players than myself. Is anything in these scenarios wrong? Am I missing any other major downsides? In my head right now, it feels like the worst case scenario is that we end up with two confirmed towns, and major insight into our most confusing player. Mafia then know who is who, but if Cyrus is Tracker, they've got half of it figured out anyways. Town gets a narrowed down scumlist.

Do the pros outweigh the cons? Is the whole idea banking too much on Cyrus' Tracker claim? If I'm a dumbass please tell me so.

I don't mean to double post, but I'm thinking about this more and trying to organize thoughts. If #2 is true, why was there no death last night? Either mafia got jailed or their target did, either of which would be a shot in the dark by a jail keeper. Or the mafia targeted a villager who was *also* targeted by the village doc (who didn't bother to save Cyrus despite his claim). That'd be a pretty big coincidence.

OR, maybe the mafia has a serious big brain play in mind and didn't kill last night to sow unrest. But I just have a hard time buying this.

In short, as much as I want to believe Cyrus is mafia for his anti-town act, I don't think there's a reasonable way to square it right now. I also really think that, if he *were* mafia making a gambit to claim tracker, and somebody had info to counter his claim, somebody would have made *some* effort to crumb that out to us. Much more likely: Cyrus is legit, the doc saved him, and the doc should stay hidden. (For now.)

[Pavowski]

yea I think this is good? At worst we get 1 extra confirmed town on top of cyrus and Luke(Im going under the principle that Luke is green checked(correct me if im wrong) and at best we get 4 green IF the doc saved someone either than cyrus(very unlikely)

I would just like to know why exactly you think Luke is confirmed town.

913

913 looks good for Luke but is not conclusive, unless I'm misunderstanding mechanics.

[Pavowski]

I'd like to consider something at this point. And before I even bring it up, I want to make it very very clear:

I AM NOT ACTIVELY ADVOCATING FOR THIS.

Do not

make any claims based on this post alone, I just would like to get everybody's opinion on the thought.

Would a mass claim be potentially useful for us? Here's my thought process: Cyrus has claimed Tracker. I don't know if I entirely believe it, and I think that some other people are in that boat with me if I'm not mistaken. If Cyrus is town, there would be absolutely no reason whatsoever for him to lie and claim Tracker (although he's done other things with no explanation, so I'm taking this with a grain of salt, though I'm humoring it to be true for the purposes of this post). So for situation one, let's pretend that that Cyrus is town.

1) Cyrus is Tracker, mafia can trust this. So like I said at the end of day 1, there is a chance that mafia already knows the setup and what the other PR is. They don't yet know

who

the other PR is, so a mass claim would out that to mafia. On the flipside, if Cyrus really is Tracker, I wouldn't expect any counterclaims on the second PR, so we could get town the information of what setup we're in, and have two confirmed towns in our PRs. In the case that mafia does decide to counterclaim, we have a 50/50 that was can then look over, and at least one mafia that we can take down for sure.

2) Cyrus is mafia, lying about being Tracker, and nobody's counterclaimed yet out of fear of the 50/50, or fear of giving up to mafia that they're a PR. In this situation though, mafia do not know the setup or possible power roles. Although nobody getting night killed has implications, because mafia just choosing not to kill is... questionable. In any case, mass claiming in this situation gets us a counterclaim against Cyrus to have the 50/50 outing him, and again, will give the information of what setup we're in, and have confirmed town in PR once the 50/50 is sorted out.

My other thought behind this is that the past couple of pages feel like there's some mild PR hunting anyways, so why not lean into it and put everything on the table?

I am asking this as a genuine question to more experienced players than myself. Is anything in these scenarios wrong? Am I missing any other major downsides? In my head right now, it feels like the worst case scenario is that we end up with two confirmed towns, and major insight into our most confusing player. Mafia then know who is who, but if Cyrus is Tracker, they've got half of it figured out anyways. Town gets a narrowed down scumlist.

Do the pros outweigh the cons? Is the whole idea banking too much on Cyrus' Tracker claim? If I'm a dumbass please tell me so.

Okay, last one. I was going back and forth on the fact that we'd have 2 confirmed town to the 2 confirmed mafia, and wouldn't that be nearly good enough to endgame the mafia on its own? Well, yes, it would. If we know that the Doctor is confirmed and the doc has confirmed Cyrus, then that's 2 to 2 and we only have to confirm 1 more town to make it impossible for mafia to win.

Except that the mafia will kill the confirmed doc tonight, and kill Cyrus tomorrow night, and we are back to zero confirmed town with at least one and possibly 2 mafia still out there.

[Pavowski]

I think I am getting a bit more comfortable with my solve of STD + [Pav or HC].

In this version of events STD and I, as fellow mafia, are clumsy enough to be on the same wagon with plenty of time left on the clock on d1, and then out of the gate try to bus each other before there's any pressure on either of us on d2? Seriously, as of the time of you posting this AND me posting this morning, there are 3 votes on the board, and if I'm scum with STD, this theory alleges 2 of the 3 are scum bussing each other.

I mean, I could see sussing him or me, but putting us on a team together is a heck of a call.

In fact, it's the first thing Luke has done in this game that has pinged me as particularly scummy. And that's not an OMGUS, that is "I actually don't understand the logic that tells you STD and me could be teamed up."

some of pav's content looks like content for the sake of content

268 doesn't actually say much it's a lot of null reads

914 is information instead of analysis which isn't inherently bad but i don't know if he really gave his analysis

I mean, in 268 it was null reads because I was still forming early impressions of people with no actual intel to go off of. Then in 914 I posted the info I had compiled, as I thought it might be of interest to some of us, and *I* wanted to have it all in one place. I later elaborated on some views on those vote counts, but why not, I'll give you some updated reads.

Cyrus is as close to confirmed town as we're gonna get, for better or for worse.

Zyla could be mafia riding her vote and her reasons on Hockey to avoid the wagon on STD at end of day, or could be town not letting herself be swayed by her susses. I lean towards town.

Hockey's votes d1 confuse me a little but *feel* like genuine searching. He's been ever-present in the scum readings of a few people but still seems to be trying to figure things out, this reads town to me, but I am easily fooled.

Azeru has felt lurky to me for most of the game, but somehow I still get a town vibe. Maybe I need to re-examine that, but that's my impression. I am also trying to figure out what to make of his post asking about a full claim, though he exhorts us not to read anything into it. Like many of my reads of him, on paper it feels like I should read it as scummy, yet I still get a town feel.

Luke I continue to find impossible to read. He could be the towniest town or the scummiest scum, and neither would surprise me, because his posts are basically always measured and analytical and hard to argue with. I *hope* he's on our side, but -- see above -- his logic putting me on a team with STD escapes me and feels out of character, so I have to lean him into the scum side. Then again, Haschel seems to be his 2nd scum read, and I agree with that, so...

Haschel is another tough one, but he's currently my 2nd scum read, for reasons I gave following my vote analysis. To rehash, he seemed to push a Strange elimination without actually voting for it. Could be big-brain town, but I don't think so.

STD is my top scum read right now, and I've also given my reason for that. It's mostly tied to the voting I talked about, but the tenor of his posts have changed while he's been under some pressure as well, which makes me think the pressure may be on the right track.

TL;DR
Scum ->------------->- Town
STD > Haschel > Luke > Azeru = Hockey = Zyla > Cyrus

These ratings subject to change.

[Pavowski]

Gahh, I forgot to factor in Cyrus's check on Luke, which, while inconclusive, is a pretty good push towards town for Luke. So yeah, for me it'd be STD and Haschel if I had to call it right now, but who knows where it goes if one of them happened to flip town.

[Pavowski]

7 days 48 hours between Prods means he just has to post once every 45 hours ,= 4 times on day 2
So it's scummy not to post makes it hard to form reads

it would be nice to hear from haschel

I agree, but let's don't forget Haschel had some extenuating circumstances in RL that may be making it difficult to post as much as he might do otherwise.

[Pavowski]

i beginning to think i'm just wrong about everything this game

Welcome to my world!

[Pavowski]

In fact, it's the first thing Luke has done in this game that has pinged me as particularly scummy.

{snip}
his logic putting me on a team with STD escapes me and feels out of character, so I have to lean him into the scum side. Then again, Haschel seems to be his 2nd scum read, and I agree with that, so...

And this take coming from you pings me pretty hard...

Like "If luke is considering a scum bus plan, then maybe he is just scum" does not feel like the most genuine take for you to have.

Honestly Luke, I have been feeling you as town all the way in this game, because I agree with just about everything you post. But I then find myself second-guessing why I read you that way, because I don't like it when I agree with somebody 100%. So I've been eyes-up for anything scummy from you in the meantime. Basically, I like to follow my gut, and you throw my gut way off. So maybe I'm wrong in how I interpreted this read from you. I just happen to know that your scumread of me is wrong. (Which is easy enough to say, I'll grant, but I'm saying it.)

At any rate, a couple posts on from that one, I concede that you're -- if not 100%, then certainly 75%, to use meaningless numbers -- cleared by big C's check on you. So I must put you in the "almost certainly town" column for now and quit beefing with you.

Like, STD left day 1 as the number 1 suspect for over half the lobby. So the scum team setting up for a STD bus seems very much in the realm of possibility. Like if they thought std was going down today no matter what, they would want to leave his partner looking as good on the flip as possible, and cross voting out the gate is a way to do that.

I don't think that your crossvote is scum indicative for you - but I don't think that it should hard clear you from my PoV either, and I find it suspicious that you are trying to frame it like it should.

I wouldn't say it should clear me; that would be asking too much. From where I stood, though, it seemed like you were viewing it as a bus, and that's what I took issue with.

[Pavowski]

7 days 48 hours between Prods means he just has to post once every 45 hours ,= 4 times on day 2
So it's scummy not to post makes it hard to form reads

My worries are hc could be the missing piece to the puzzle.

Look lukewarm and hc are off the table for me today and I think pav is town so try again.

*sigh*

[Pavowski]

Alright, fuck it. I've been trying to parse this out and figure out if 1) I could weasel more information out of it first,

Or 2) this is even a good idea to out myself.

But I've come to the conclusion that I'm hurting town and leaving y'all in the dark by keeping it to myself. Gotta say it at some point so now it is.

I am a Jailkeeper. I did not jail Cyrus. I jailed Luke.

This tells me a couple of things. Luke not saying anything about being roleblocked is telling me that he does not want to the rest of us to know that there are any roleblockers in the game, he's trying to sell that we have a Doctor and not a 2 RB setup. The other half of this that I think adds to it even more is the fact that nobody else has said anything about being roleblocked either. Unless somebody else wants to come forward, what this means is Luke either multitasked (reminder that he was the first and only one to bring up mafia multitasking in 998), or mafia didn't roleblock at all in an effort to keep town thinking we had a different setup. In mafia eyes, they shouldn't even have to roleblock Cyrus because if jailor saves him, he gets roleblocked anyways. He insinuates otherwise in 1001, and it doesn't make sense. There's definitely reason to kill or roleblock him, but it's completely superfluous to do both.

Other posts of his that I would like to point out are:

936. Considering he knows he was jailed, he knows the setup, this feels like a threat to the jailkeeper in a "come and try me" kind of way. But then in 938 he goes back to implying that there's just a doctor anyways, and no roleblockers.

999 is when he responds to my point about mass claiming. This is a perfectly reasonable response, but I think coming from a player that simply has a shit ton more information than the rest is a scary prospect. To me this feels like he's already figured out the jailor and just wants to push it another night to kill the power role before mass claim happens.

1002 he turns away from talking about mechanics and brings it back to our regularly scheduled programming, which again, is perfectly reasonable. But again we need to remember that he has more information than the rest of us. And I also feel like Luke isn't the kind of player to completely gloss over something like this. He's been very in-depth, very thorough, very particular all game, and this is the one thing that he quickly pushed through. He quickly insinuates "yeah I guess that there could be a jailor (he knows there is) but that's not important let's get back to business."

Now, is there a possibility that Luke is town and my power saved him? Of course there is. That's just the nature of the role. But that doesn't explain why he's deliberately trying to convince the rest of us that that's not the case.

The case in which Luke is town requires mafia to target Luke as well, and what would be the motive for that? Well, iirc most of us in day 1 were at least town leaning on Luke, and he has been a big asset in progressing the game forward, so it's understandable that mafia would see him as a threat. The issue that I have with this is that Cyrus apparently didn't even get roleblocked. It doesn't make sense to me that they would leave a known* power role open entirely, not targeting or roleblocking.

I might have more thoughts on the matter, but I'm currently going in circles about it, so I need to take a break and come back to it later with fresh eyes once everyone else has had a chance to comment.

All I know right now is that I can't sit here and watch you guys say "Luke is safe, Luke is town, Luke is off the table for today" when I know that something is going on with him.

VOTE: Lukewarm

I'm sitting here trying to parse out all the implications of this. There have been zero blocks claimed, which is why I was assuming doctor. If you're a JK, that means there's a Mafia Roleblocker. If Luke is that roleblocker, would that mean his block was blocked?

If Luke were not the RB, surely one of us might have been blocked instead.... unless the RB chose not to block? And does a vanilla know they've been blocked?

Looking at it from the other side. If Luke is *not* mafia, and we trust Azeru's claim here (spoiler: I do), then why the heck was there no kill last night?

Could this be a gambit? If we elim Luke and he's town, Az is the elim tomorrow. It can't be worth it to trade 1 for 1.

Am I missing something? Is there a possible way this isn't a knockout blow?

[Pavowski]

I'm all for hearing Luke out and getting confirmation of how a JK blocking a mafia RB would play out, and whether VTs get notified when they get blocked. (@mod, can we get an answer to that?)

But this begs the question: if Luke isn't mafia, why was Cyrus not NK'd or blocked?

If we have a tracker and a JK, then we have a mafia roleblocker.

Surely with 2 mafia that's a block and a NK every night. They would surely divide and conquer on Cyrus's claim of tracker as a tracker is a direct threat to the mafia. Block or kill Cyrus (block seems more likely actually), kill somebody else hoping to hit JK.

So, again - if Luke is town, why is Cyrus *both* alive *and* unblocked?

[Pavowski]

- Azeru and Cyrus are both telling the truth, and the scum team decided that Cyrus's posting style was detrimental enough to the town to ignore him

- I think that this is probably the world that we live in. Cyrus's posts have been so chaotic, and so anti-town, that I would not be surprised if the scum team decided to let him live. My biggest question here, is "if he is telling the truth, why did cyrus not get RB'ed?"

My best guesses are:
-They thought the jailkeeper was going to be protecting Cyrus, so they did not think he would be getting a result anyways
-They knew that Cyrus was going to track me (I think that he made it pretty obvious tbh), and since they were killing me, his result would not matter
-They thought I was the jailkeeper, so they both RB'ed me AND NK'ed me to make sure that the kill went through. That is the only safe way to kill a Jailkeeper, because it stops the jailkeeper from being able to save themselves if there happens to be a cross target between Mafia and the jailkeeper.

Once again, I find myself agreeing with Luke's logic here, but I don't buy the conclusion he draws. The Cyrus question solves it for me: if Cyrus was not NK'd or RB'd, then Luke being jailed means Luke is mafia.

scum:Luke solves the strangeness of last night's no-kill. To believe otherwise is to believe mafia let a basically known PR run around untouched, and a PR, even one acting bizarrely like Cyrus has, is the biggest threat to the mafia.

VOTE: Lukewarm

[Pavowski]

Guys. We just got major information, maybe we should process it for five seconds before an elim

I mean, it dropped almost 12 hours ago. I've pondered it overnight and waited until the morning to vote. Luke is still at e-2 by my count; there is still time.

[Pavowski]

Cyrus did his patented double vote.

[Pavowski]

no deaths well thanks doc who ever you are. lukewarm went no where last night

To clarify:
Did you get "No action"? Or "No result"?

You see this is a slip. It means her and lukewarm tried to block me but the blocker got jail kept by Azeru which was lukewarm resulting in no death and my night actions going through. That's the game.

#@pav did youreadthis

I did. I'm not convinced it means what you think it means, as I was wondering the same thing; Z just asked it first.

[Pavowski]

Am I wrong in thinking we're only at e-2?

[Pavowski]

NOPE I missed Hockey's vote, WE ARE IN FACT AT E-1, that's my bad for not realizing it

[Pavowski]

By my count it's Cyrus, Pav, Hockey, Azeru on Luke right now. That's e-1.

[Pavowski]

To me, the likeliest prospects for a scumpartner are STD and Hockey. I need to look back over the ISOs and the vote progressions, but:

STD -- I can 100% see a world where scumLuke keeps pressure on his partner for a while at first -- he was a target of suspicion for much of d1 and continued to be through d2 -- before shifting to tunnel on me, before Azeru dropped the bomb on him. At which point ... I'm still trying to see what to make of all that flailing once he knew he was cooked. And then STD hammers with only a few words. This could be the case.

Hockey -- in 1078 tries to pump the brakes on the Luke wagon before jumping onto it a few posts later. Then adds nothing else. Granted not a ton of time passed, but I could see scum lying low and bussing Luke when the jig was clearly up.

So Cyrus clears Zyla, and Cyrus will be dead tonight. We can miselim once. I still have reservations about Haschel but to me these are the top two choices right now.

[Pavowski]

Well, let me consider. If Az blocked Zyla ... no, never mind. If Az blocked Zyla and Zyla were the last mafia, there would be no kill, ergo Zyla not moving means Zyla is cleared.

Assuming Cyrus is cleared. But if Cyrus is mafia at this point then I need to have a good lie down.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Pavowski]

Insomnia strikes, so I am just going to get my final reads out of the way now.

Hockey, Zyla, and Azeru are all lock town in my eyes. Trust that, and I think that you guys might have a chance. Azeru will probably die tonight, but tomorrow in MElo should start with a Zyla/Hockey Town block.

I would normally suggest doing a No Elimination vote in Melo, to push the decision off to Elo - But, if you guys do that, realize that the scum team will 100% leave cyrus alive, and I don't really want to bet the game on to be 100% in Cyrus's hands.

@Zyla and Hockey, if you guys don't currently mutually town read each other, at least consider my read here. Assuming you guys shoot right in the first night of MElo, which ever of Zyla/Hockey survives the following night should be the town leader moving for the last night.

GTH, the scum team is still [STD, Pav] imo. Finding out that we have a jailkeeper who saved me has only strengthened that read. It now makes Way More sense for the two of them to come out of the gate bussing one another. If they knew that there was a 50/50 chance that the jailkeeper had targeted the scum who tried to kill me, then yeah, they needed to start the day off working as hard as they could to make sure that they were not seen as partners. Scum are paranoid, and would have seen this day as a ticking time bomb until the jailkeeper outed one of them.

I also find it interesting looking at STD's read of Pav from Day 1 to Day 2

Spoiler:

Town
Azeru
Pav
Cyrus

Null (town lean)
Luke
Zyla

Null (scum lean)
Haschel

Scum
Strange
Hockeyfan

i like the wagon composition on strangematter

VOTE: StrangeMatter E-1

pav has some iioa posts like his vote tracker but has kept some of his thoughts close to the vest here. of the three i find him the scummiest. I wish he would talk a little more as well, he could be lurky scum unsure of what to say. ---i'm going to try VOTE: Pavowski for now

Like Pav went from his 2nd highest Town Read, not lean, all the way down to his scummiest scum read. That looks to me like a scum team that is panicking over the jailkeeper save, and are suddenly trying to distance pretty hard.

So final read to leave for MElo:
Azeru is dying tonight
Hockey and Zyla are lock town.
Cyrus and HC are possible, and you should consider all possibilities in Elo, but
GTH, the scum team is STD and Pav

Look at this. scum!Luke knows he's hosed at this point. He's still trying to win for his side. What the hell is he trying to do with these last reads if not sow confusion? He started tunneling me before Az's bomb dropped and he's still doing it after the bomb, along with STD. I'm actually rethinking STD as the most likely scumpartner right now because of it.

He says Hockey and Zyla are lock town -- why? I don't see Hockey as a lock for town at all, and I wouldn't see Zyla that way either -- except for Cyrus clearing her last night.

This last reads list is a mess. I wish I hadn't started thinking about it.

[Pavowski]

If Cyrus is Mafia then the real tracker would counterclaim; we know we have one because of the other flipped roles.

Thanks for talking me off that ledge.

STD, I don't like the fact that you voted before HC had a chance to react to Azeru's post. However, the fact that Luke started the day voting you intrigues me, was he bussing you? Trying to make it look like he was? Assuming he was trying to be in a town mindset, do you think any of his posts towards you had legitimate scumpoints about you?

This could be a point for

or

against Hockey, but

Luke has mentioned a good amount of times in this game the fact that scum are going to list their partner as a weak scum lean

. As far as I can tell, Luke has been really consistent about having Hockey as one of his strongest town reads. This feels like WIFOM to me, if everyone believes that scum will put their partner in one spot, put it in the opposite.

As for HC, you were supposedly one of his top scum reads, and the only one of 'the big 3' that he voted for, but when Luke knows that he's done for and getting voted off, he doesn't say a word about you. Why so distant?

I 100% think Luke could have said this just to sow confusion in case he ever did flip, which is making me second-guess taking any information *at all* from any of his posts after Az's big reveal.

[Pavowski]

Sure you can, broken clocks etc etc

I know I talked myself in circles trying to make sense of Luke's post-Az screeds, but the fact that he recommends me and STD as the scum team has me leaning away from STD and more towards Hockey (who he townreads) and Haschel (who he doesn't mention much at all in his last hours).

Hockey has the lead right now, but I want to hear more before I vote; we have plenty of time today.

[Pavowski]

I dont think the entire Luke/STD interaction is scum/scum. Which through POE means mafia lies in Pav/Haschel.

That's it?

[Pavowski]

I looked back at the votes, and saw Luke voting for:

Zyla
Strange
Haschel
Cyrus

on d1, and

STD
Pav

on d2.

Given Az has died, anybody else notice who he never voted?

[Pavowski]

VOTE: hockey I just can't shake the feeling

I mean thats fine, Im pretty scummy but when u actually compare Luke's interactions with Pav to mine/luke's interactions, i think pav/luke's interactions are wayyy more scummy. Luke null read Pav almost all of d1 and didnt really interact with them. He then proceeded to have 1 post mid-d1 saying how Pav is scummy but never pushed on this further. EOD D1 is when He started paring Pav with STD and pushed the STD slot a bit more than Pav. Lets go to start of d2: Luke still pairs Std/Pav. Luke places a random vote on Pav and just leaves it there. He pushed pav a bit hard near EOD d2 but that was when he was already going down, so thats pretty much NAI. I think this entire interaction is way likely for partners than me/Luke

Dude.... he had that whole tirade where he scumread me for dropping a little bit of sus on him, voted me before Az dropped her intel, and then continued to push me even after.

But that's okay. What are your thoughts on Haschel?

[Pavowski]

VOTE: hockey I just can't shake the feeling

I mean thats fine, Im pretty scummy but when u actually compare Luke's interactions with Pav to mine/luke's interactions, i think pav/luke's interactions are wayyy more scummy. Luke null read Pav almost all of d1 and didnt really interact with them. He then proceeded to have 1 post mid-d1 saying how Pav is scummy but never pushed on this further. EOD D1 is when He started paring Pav with STD and pushed the STD slot a bit more than Pav. Lets go to start of d2: Luke still pairs Std/Pav. Luke places a random vote on Pav and just leaves it there. He pushed pav a bit hard near EOD d2 but that was when he was already going down, so thats pretty much NAI. I think this entire interaction is way likely for partners than me/Luke

Dude.... he had that whole tirade where he scumread me for dropping a little bit of sus on him, voted me before Az dropped her intel, and then continued to push me even after.

But that's okay. What are your thoughts on Haschel?

Asssuming Zyla is <town>, its pretty much auto and we can condemm Haschel tmr since we have 1 mislim

That ... is not what I asked

[Pavowski]

I looked back at the votes, and saw Luke voting for:

Zyla
Strange
Haschel
Cyrus

on d1, and

STD
Pav

on d2.

Given Az has died, anybody else notice who he never voted?

Spoiler alert: it's Hockey. Of all of us left alive, the only one Luke never voted against was Hockey.

That, plus the rest... it's enough for me. VOTE: Hockey. That's e-1 by my count.

[Pavowski]

Gonna

Vote: HockeyFan

; he's the most likely partner for Lukewarm.

The longer this drags on, the more I wonder about Haschel. Is this all you have to say? And if Hockey were cleared right now, who would you vote for?

[Pavowski]

We're at e-2 on Hockey right now. I see this a few ways:

1. Hockey is scum, and the game is almost over, we just need to win over the rest of town. Cyrus, StD, and Zyla are outstanding votes right now.

2. Hockey is town. Hockey was at e-1 while STD and Zyla's votes were outstanding, before Cyrus unvoted. If scum were in Zyla or STD, why not hammer? STD quickhammered Luke (kinda, not really, but it could be viewed that way) to end d2. The fact that he hasn't hammered here seems to speak towards town for STD. And Zyla is cleared by Cyrus's track n2.

3. Hockey is town. Scum!STD doesn't want to hammer, as that'll be two hammer votes in a row: 1) on Luke, who was toast, and said vote -- while not *exactly* a quickhammer -- brought a semi-abrupt end to the discussion around his elim, and 2) on Hockey, who flips town in this instance. This chain of events leads to major sus on STD from all survivors, probably getting him lynched d4. So he's waiting for Zyla to cast the vote.

Personally, 1 and 2 make the most sense to me. I think scum is in Hockey or Haschel.

Viewed another way, there are 6 of us alive right now. If we miselim tonight, Cyrus will be dead tomorrow, bringing us to 4. We could hold off on an elim tomorrow in that instance, in which case Zyla (for all intents and purposes cleared) is the most likely NK to get us to 3.

So the final 3, if we make it that far, is gonna come from Hockey, STD, Haschel, and myself (whichever of those 4 does not get eliminated today). We only get 2 chances to find the remaining mafia.

Again, I think scum is in Hockey or Haschel (see #2 above).

I'm actually kinda glad I'm not locktown in this case, because Cyrus and Zyla have to choose between 4, and the rest of us only have to decide between 3.

[Pavowski]

im not hammering today so your have to win over zyla .

Why the heck not? As you keep pointing out, you're dead tonight anyway. Voting your top scum is the best way you can help town at this point.

[Pavowski]

im not hammering today so your have to win over zyla .

Why the heck not? As you keep pointing out, you're dead tonight anyway. Voting your top scum is the best way you can help town at this point.

Which is not to say you should hammer, but you should at least vote!

[Pavowski]

Oof, hasch. I have a friend up that way, I can imagine you're miserable.

[Pavowski]

Under ordinary circumstances it'd make sense to do a no-elim today, but all that will do is get Zyla, who's verified legit, killed in the night. I am frustrated Hockey self-hammered before STD weighed in. That's valuable information we now don't have.

[Pavowski]

While we're waiting to hear from Zyla, a quick look back:

Strangematter's elim:

StrangeMatter (5): Pavowski, Azeru, Lukewarm, Save The Dragons, cyrus62
Save The Dragons (2): HockeyFan, StrangeMatter
HockeyFan (1): Zyla
Zyla (1): Haschel Cedricson

Not Voting (0): None.

Luke's elim:

Lukewarm (5): Azeru, HockeyFan, cyrus62, Pavowski, Save The Dragons
Pavowski (1): Lukewarm

Not Voting (2): Zyla, Haschel Cedricson

Hockey's elim:

HockeyFan (4): Haschel Cedricson, Pavowski, Zyla, HockeyFan

Not Voting (2): Save The Dragons, cyrus62

When Luke was eliminated, Haschel didn't vote.

When Hockey was eliminated, STD didn't vote.

Haschel wasn't on the Strange wagon, and STD was.

I don't like this at all.

[Pavowski]

Also just gonna point out Cyrus drove me nuts in this thread but it's so quiet without him, it's weird =\

[Pavowski]

I'm honestly still thinking HC for the vote. Does anyone have a reason for someone else?

I felt much more confident about Haschel until I looked at the votes and realized we don't have STD on record for Hockey (and can't get his vote at this point), which I don't at all like.

But I also might be chasing myself around in circles. My thoughts on Haschel haven't changed since before the Hockey elim. (See 1178 and 1227).

[Pavowski]

Given things aren't moving much around here I'm going to go ahead and open the bidding. VOTE: Haschel

[Pavowski]

If it's Pav, good job man, you got me fooled.

Same to you.

Zyla?

[Pavowski]

If it's Pav, good job man, you got me fooled.

Same to you.

Zyla?

Pav, look through STDs iso and tell me if you honestly see any scumhunting at all. My activity has been garbage but at least I’ve been trying when I’ve been here.

I'm on mobile right now so checking an iso will be difficult, but I'll make an effort when I get home this eve.

Problem is, both of you have had periods of "garbage activity" which I don't hold against you, but it has come at times which end up looking suspicious for each of you.

On balance I still lean towards Haschel for scum but I'm willing to UNVOTE: Haschel until tonight to take another look.

[Pavowski]

Spoiler:

Lukewarm knew he was going to flip and gave some last reads. He pegged the scumteam as Pav/STD.

From my perspective obviously he was giving cover to his partner by calling them scum; since I know I'm town and Zyla is confirmed town this isn't up for debate with me. The question becomes who was he giving a worse reason for scumreading? He wanted to express suspicion of his partner but not in a way that would actually lead to danger.

The big things Luke said about STD was that he liked STD's reaction to my questioning of Strange but didn't like the line about "cutting a new player slack". That's weak. He was willing to lim STD instead of Strange because " I would expect more coming from his slot since he is an SE this game, but then he has also said he has irl stuff going on, so idk. Not planning on pushing here, but am willing to move there if it is the difference between a no-elim or not." On Day 2 he shifts to a case on STD which isn't bad, but isn't the sort of case that will get other people to jump on board.

Finally he says

GTH, the scum team is still [STD, Pav] imo. Finding out that we have a jailkeeper who saved me has only strengthened that read. It now makes Way More sense for the two of them to come out of the gate bussing one another. If they knew that there was a 50/50 chance that the jailkeeper had targeted the scum who tried to kill me, then yeah, they needed to start the day off working as hard as they could to make sure that they were not seen as partners. Scum are paranoid, and would have seen this day as a ticking time bomb until the jailkeeper outed one of them.

The partnership he floats is obviously wrong, but he makes a decent point about scum knowing there's a 50/50 chance that the jailkeeper targeted scum. And who does he try to distance himself from first-thing? STD.

Pav has struck me as a decent townread all game while Fen has been closer to null. I think a Luke/STD partnership is a lot more likely than Luke/Pav.

Vote: Save The Dragons

1271 is giving me pause here, now I have to go reread Luke again...

[Pavowski]

Gonna

Vote: HockeyFan

; he's the most likely partner for Lukewarm.

You know, I'm not sure you ever explained why you thought this

Looking through STDs ISO, and honestly? Nothing really stands out, for the most part his progressions on reads seem to make total sense to me.
But then looking over it adding Luke in? I don't really see any meaningful interaction between them, there's almost nothing there. But after Luke is pretty much guaranteed to go down, he starts pushing harder for STD than anyone else. Is he distancing, or just trying to get us to miselim before voting him off?

I've gone back and forth over what Luke was doing with STD and me there while his time was up and I just dunno what to make of it. Like if he'd flipped town it's good cause to look at both of us, but since he flipped scum - and of course he knew he'd flip scum - what does he expect us to do with that? He can't clear 2 people, as there aren't two scum slots to clear. I just... What?

He has to know anything he says will be measured and turned inside out. But that brings me back to Haschel, whom he mostly steers away from in those final posts. That feels tactical.

I just look at all the work Luke did to make it look like STD and I were the team, even after he was cooked. I think he was setting up miselims, and I think he was hoping to get them even after he was gone. I really can't see him bussing his scum partner like that. He was gunning for STD until I voiced some sus on him and then he turned it all on me.

So I'm back to where I started today. I'm back to Haschel.

If it's Pav, good job man, you got me fooled.

Same to you.

Zyla?

Pav, look through STDs iso and tell me if you honestly see any scumhunting at all. My activity has been garbage but at least I’ve been trying when I’ve been here.

I looked back for scum hunting from STD. I don't see a lot, but I don't see any association between them despite a fair bit of interaction. Meanwhile there is very little interaction between Luke and Haschel, almost like they're invisible to each other.

VOTE: Haschel and if I've been played, then I've been played.

[Pavowski]

It's not. It was an impressive bit of performance by him, but it's not.

Zyla's vote was the hammer, I guess that implies STD was our last scum?

Heck.

[Pavowski]

I have to say I fully expected scum!Haschel to vote me when I first cast my vote on the last day. Like, if you had, I would have been *sure* you were scum. The fact that he didn't came *that* close to making me switch my vote. As it was, I was only slightly more confident than a coin flip.

But at the same time, Haschel on that last day just didn't feel at all like Haschel at earlier points in the game. Felt to me like he was giving up, in a way. Ugh. Sorry, HC.

And well played Luke and STD.

[Pavowski]

I just wanna say that Luke almost legit hurt my feelings on d2 when you turned that wall on me. To the point where it kinda made me start playing things closer to the vest, I think. I really could not get a read on you one way or the other, but I found myself feeling like you were town, and then when I thought about it I couldn't really say why, which made me think you might be scum, and round and round I went.

Anyway you threw enough garbage into the water that it worked; in the end I put a lot more stock in trying to figure out Luke, the confirmed scum, than I did trying to figure out the 2 possible scum players, which I guess was my mistake. Lesson learned?

Oof.

[Pavowski]

I just wanna say that Luke almost legit hurt my feelings on d2 when you turned that wall on me. To the point where it kinda made me start playing things closer to the vest, I think.

Oh....
I'm sorry :/

Nah it's all good man. I did say almost!

What I meant was it just blindsided me that you made this huge case that "Pav is scum and here's why". I was just straight-up bamboozled. And after you dropped it, I was afraid it was gonna turn into a miselim on me there d2.

In the end though, turns out I was right to be skurrd of scum!Luke

[Pavowski]

gg guys

I think Luke did a great job, he came up with most of the ideas as evidenced by the mafia PT.

I'm surprised we pulled it off, we got really wrecked by the jailkeeper

, but i think luke's push on me D2 really helped.

Thanks fferyllt!

This. 100% this. Azeru nearly singlehandedly won the game for town. I was pretty sure we lost as soon as Day 2 started

What did helped us turn it around was that the very first post of Day 2 was Cyrus claiming that I did not move. -- Scum normally do not know if they were the target of the jailkeeper, or if their NK target was. But as soon as I saw that, I immediately knew exactly how both of the PRs had targeted, which helped me have a better plan for Day 2.

But even then, it was an uphill battle from the moment Azeru targeted me

I can point to several moments where Cyrus's chaos threw a monkey wrench into this game. Having him gone d4 calmed things down significantly... But I think the change of pace made me impatient, too.

[Pavowski]

Really wish I could’ve gotten Town off me, but oh well.

It's hard to do. I was just in a mini normal where I made a couple of lazy reads, got scum read for it, and got quick hammered. As soon as somebody gets their eye on you, you almost have to hope for somebody else to create a distraction to take it off.