Newbie 2068 | Lofi Beats to Play Mafia To | Game Over

[alstroemerial]

Hi everyone!

So here’s what happened - there was a typo in the player list (see the L in my name but not in the vote count), so I didn’t get my role until just now. I realized this earlier today but felt like it would be inappropriate to post before knowing my role.

I’m out of the house right now so I can’t post a lot, but I have been taking notes and I’ll share some thoughts later tonight.

[alstroemerial]

Hi everyone!

So here’s what happened - there was a typo in the player list (see the L in my name but not in the vote count), so I didn’t get my role until just now. I realized this earlier today but felt like it would be inappropriate to post before knowing my role.

I’m out of the house right now so I can’t post a lot, but I have been taking notes and I’ll share some thoughts later tonight.

[alstroemerial]

Oh god sorry for the double post, great way to start… cursed phone

[alstroemerial]

All right! Here we go. First, as a small introductory comment. Please don't be misled by my join date -- I played one game back in 2015-ish, and this is my first game since then. So, I'm very much a newbie. I've read a few threads in the last few weeks to try to get caught up on vernacular, etc.

My general perspective on the thread so far is that a lot of the discourse stems from people joking and then others pushing it so far that it becomes actual discourse. It's a little hard for me to parse what is serious and what is not (though I did gather that the reference to me in 27 was a joke, haha). With that being said, I did my best to give a serious read-list with some reasons why. Still, it's so early that almost everything is more of a "lean" at best.

Lean town

GrandpaMo

: Someone who got caught up in a lot of the "joke-course" but it all comes across to me like a genuine attempt to transition out of RVS. I agree with the observation that Zyla's hard push against the no elim joke vote is strange.

Val89

: As you can guess from the beginning of this post, I was annoyed by Val's fake RVS wall because it started all of this confusing conversation, but I don't think it's a scummy thing to do. I agree with post 76 and would have made something similar if I was active... Post 72 to me is interesting and reads well because it shows that Val did some work looking into James instead of jumping straight to an OMGUS.

VFP

: Most of the posts so far have been fluff, with only I think one major post past RVS. But that post (57) was productive, giving several reads, so it was productive.

Null:

T3

: T3 has been in a few of the games I've read and I find him to be a bit of an enigma and hard to read... Hasn't given a lot of content so far. The meta claim about the self and lack of content makes me have questions, but it's canceled out by post 43, which I liked.

Lean scum:

Cook

: I'm just not getting any content. As mentioned in 76, post 73 showed that Cook is active but just not posting any content. Unless this is normal for Cook, I'd expect more from an SE.

MiniMegabyte

: Similarly to Cook, I haven't seen Mini before but I thought an SE would be playing differently, but maybe I'm just wrong. Posts 58-62 seemed like taking an obvious joke (25) completely at face value, and that's pretty much all we've gotten. It was weirdly defensive off of Val's joke-accusation.

Zyla

: It just seems weird to me to dig in so hard on literally one of the first posts in the thread, during the RVS phase. Additionally, the hero solve on 89 was a combo of that digging-in with a healthy dose of OMGUS. However, I have a doubt that I'm struggling to articulate, which is that I read a game in which Zyla turned out to be scum, and this game feels different. I read that earlier game not knowing I'd be playing with Zyla again, so maybe I need to go back and take a closer look.

JamesTheNames

: In general I agree with Val's logic, but here is something else new.

I like the idea of tunnelling day 1 I will warn you of this.

This really rubs me the wrong way. I don't see how tunnelling is productive? By nature, "tunnel vision" is regarded as a dangerous thing that closes one off to new possibilities. There could be times when tunneling is appropriate (i.e. more info), but at this point, it seems unproductive. Then, there's the

threatening

to tunnel. What are you trying to accomplish with this? The post as a whole reads like "back off or I'll tunnel you".

With all that said, I'll put my vote on VOTE: JamestheNames.

Last but not least, a newbie question. If this isn't something people feel comfortable answering during the game I get it, but... does anyone have any tips for taking notes? Right now I'm using a Word doc organized by player, with each player getting a bullet-point list labeled with post numbers, along with a general section for reads at the top, but I feel like it's going to get unwieldy as the number of pages in the game increase.

[alstroemerial]

Thanks for condensing everything a bit more, Zyla. I interpreted post 78 as a joke, kind of like someone who's never played chess saying they're undefeated in chess. To be honest, so far, the only post in VFP's ISO that I interpret as serious is 57, and I would be curious for more of their thoughts.

Also, I'm not going to quote it again, but here's my interpretation of GrandpaMo's post 87... I didn't totally follow the first sentence so it kind of starts from after that.
1) VFP's no-lim is NAI, so he thinks it is suspicious that you are scumreading them for it.
2) Everyone will eventually vote by the end of D1, including VFP, so stressing about the no-lim is pointless. So, he expected you to stop pushing the issue, but you didn't.
3) Pushing something that Mo thinks is NAI makes you suspicious a bit.

Now that I write it out like that it seems a little less compelling than it was in my head, to be honest, but that combined with the OMGUS still has you slightly on the red side for me. But I do agree that it's been confusing.

[alstroemerial]

EBWOP: I wrote that before 104, which I also take as serious.

[alstroemerial]

So, in that case, I guess my question for

VFP

is whether GrandpaMo's assumption in my #2 is true or not. That is, do you actually think we should no lim now that the game has been going on for a bit more?

[alstroemerial]

Yea, that's why I said bad reaction because it was a weird omgus. I don't fully scumread you but you are like the only one who I see that could be possible scum. Also I agree with T3 and I do think your introduction is actually towny.

Can you just confirm if I'm reading right that both of those "yous" are at me? I do agree that I look bad if James flips green, but can you explain a little more why I'm the only possible scum? Besides that you said my post with the most content so far was towny, I'm personally concerned at the number of people we just don't have a lot of information about at this point.

I think it can be very productive. I don't think there are many more efficient ways of getting reads day 1. You have no power role reads, no night kills, no eliminations. You can't use hindsight to justify applying pressure onto somebody either. However tunnelling somebody, especially one who you don't have a town read on, be it null or scum instead, applies more pressure than splitting your attention between multiple people, goes further than split attention pressure would apply, and in general makes the game easier to solve.

You have to dig for treasure, you have a shovel and it could only dig so much, what happens if you split the shovel between multiple holes, maybe you didn't dig deep enough to get the treasure, whereas if you dug as deep as you could on one hole, you'd know if the treasure was there or not. In this analogy shovel = time, treasure = solid read, multiple holes = people.

Also I should probably have clarified instead of making the post so short, it doesn't necessarily mean tunnelling for the entire remaining 8~ days, just for a period of the remaining 8~ days.

I think maybe we then just had different interpretations of "tunnelling." I was taking it to mean, roughly, "lock onto target with full confidence and push as hard as you can for as long as you can." With the treasure metaphor, I agree for the same reason that I think having a vote somewhere is more productive than not voting at all.


Question for

Zyla

regarding your Val read. Does your scum-lean on Grandpa make you think Val is more likely to be town, given all of the back and forth that they had? I ask partially because I have them as flipped. It doesn't read like scum v scum to me.

[alstroemerial]

Some shorter thoughts now, just as reactions to what's happened while I was gone, with more new content later today...

1) It feels like a jerk move to be like "confusing posts are scummy" when it could just be GrandpaMo having trouble with clarity but the amount of effort spent on decoding posts is a bit of a drain on town's time, if that makes sense. In my more detailed dive today I'm going to be looking at GrandpaMo in more detail. Post 143 really bugged me as misleading, even though I do SR James as well for now. That's the other thing that is troubling me -- the amount of visceral hostility between these two doesn't seem like SvS but I have been SR-ing James and questioning Grandpa now. Also this is NAI, but some of GrandpaMo's posts read as just mean. I know we have to be forceful in our arguments but...

2) I just wanted to clarify the below because upon reading I see that it wasn't explained well.

Alstroemerial has me and Grandpa as both TRs at present, so the later assertion they think we are flipped (I think that means of opposite alignments?) adds an interesting dimension.[/spoiler]

My thoughts here were a bit tangled yesterday and it shows... What I had been trying to say is that both Val and Grandpa seemed towny but that if one flipped green it makes the odds of the other being red more likely, and at the time my read on Grandpa was a bit more positive than my read on Val. (Caveat that now I am not so sure anymore, see point #1). It could also be TvT of course, but just thinking in terms of relative odds.

3) Regarding the quote walls, if people are having a conversation that lasts over several posts, instead of quoting the whole conversation each time, could we maybe just quote the few most recent posts? Some of these are a bit unwieldy. On a similar topic, if I'm posting with a lot of different thoughts (like this post, for example), is it easier to read if I break it up into multiple posts or just do it like this? Let me know and I can change my approach.

4) I am absolutely not following the T3 trust tell legality conversation stemming from post 74. If it's really important can someone give a quick paraphrase or give me a hint of what to search on the wiki?

5)

And withholding info that would seem beneficiary to scum would only make my logic and perhaps alstro's (using this as an example for other possible town) logic fail as well because I feel like me and him have this intuitive thought that you or zyla could be scum.

them*


6) I feel like I need to make one of those boards with everyone's avatars (or a piece of paper that says "T3") with colored strings connecting them...

[alstroemerial]

Thank you!

[alstroemerial]

Not to mention there are different reasons for me and Zyla scumreading you.

Can someone just take a moment to look at the combined ISO for James and Zyla and identify where Zyla gives her reasons for voting Grandpa prior to James' #145?

I can't find it, and it's worrying me.

Here's my attempt at tackling this...

86 is the first post where either mentions Grandpa, and it's James questioning Grandpa's logic toward Val. Then, in 89 (less than 30 min later), Zyla includes Grandpa in a hero solve. In 90, Grandpa says that Zyla's 89 is a bad reaction, and James fires back in 91 that it is "better than" what Grandpa did. (Interesting!)

Grandpa doesn't come up really in the combined ISO again until 118, where Zyla SRs Grandpa and votes without giving a reason. Then there's some James stuff, and then we hit post 145.

So, in short, I couldn't find the reasons either. I think the interaction in the 86-91 is an interesting find that could show James sticking up for Zyla, but it also fits in with the fact that James was already angling towards Grandpa a bit -- i.e. it wasn't out of the blue.

Now, using the powerpoint charts I made with everyone's avatars connected by red and green lines (this took WAY too long), it looks like James and Zyla both had "mutual SRs" with Grandpa as of post 117, and between there and post 180, Zyla gave James a TR. I don't have a read from James on Zyla in my chart, but there is this...

I'm assuming right now you have some form of scum proof against Zyla. If so, why wait?

This is just something for you to fall back on when you have a bogus claim in the future. If you're not scum trying to place what you think is an easy elimination onto Zyla, then what is it you're hiding? As town you should have something right?

I'm calling the bluff, you have nothing here.

The above implies that James' attitude towards Zyla is generally leaning green, if he thinks that there is nothing for Grandpa to have.

One more note on this topic -- like I said, I've been thinking about GrandpaMo, and though I disagree with some of his approaches and ideas, I don't know if scum, especially newbie scum, would be so vocal and out there on Day One. Wouldn't it make more sense to try to fly under the radar than get in fights with everyone?

I do have a question for GrandpaMo, which is, do you TR anyone besides VFP? I couldn't find anyone else from you in my notes, but a

lot

of more SR-y type opinions.

[alstroemerial]

It would also be helpful for me to hear more from the following people: Cook, Mini, VFP

[alstroemerial]

As of right now I'm comfy with my vote on James, but like I alluded to in my earlier post, I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of the two scum was trying to hide right now. When you consider that the four SEs are T3, VFP, Mini, and Cook, I get nervous that they are generally being quiet while the newbies drive so much of the conversation.

[alstroemerial]

On the other had, we have the exact opposite read on {T3, James, VFP and Grandpa}, and a different read on Cook, too - over fully half the field, and the essential difference is I can't game out the justifications you might have because you haven't shared them. I am aware the same applies to some of the other players also, and that's on my radar also.

I thought I had shared my reasons for most people:
T3 | 167 (B),
James | gut read,
VFP | 135,
Grandpa | 103

Looking at 103, it looks like the main part where you talk about Grandpa is below (spoilered to try to control length).

Spoiler:

I have never lost a game with a D1 no lim on here.

Here

is where it goes from "what's the meaning of your vote?" to scum reading.

That's quite interesting, considering I haven't even found a game of yours that had a D1 No Lim. I guess you're 0for0 instead of 7for7

Why are they saying that they never lost a game that they've never played? (And if I missed the one where it did, why are they treating 1 or 2 as a rule?)

Yes, I lied to you, it wasn't just because I pointed it out to say "it was funny", I pointed it out because I knew this was going to happen, and you weren't going to realize it after questioning hence why I had to lie so I can drop it off. But since, it has escalated ever since, the only reason this conversation happened was because VFP did a no lim. It's really NAI, and it seems like you are trying to set him up as scum for it. Yes, maybe he could be scum however, this is something more of NAI in my opinion, and shouldn't be taken as a regard. Many people no lim on day 1 and many people vote on day 1.

We will all be voting regardless by day 1, so there is no point to continue this conversation. I thought you would stop because you would find it unnecessary and NAI to keep going about a specific vote, specifically a no lim.

But you didn't.

So I will give you scumpings for this. I don't fully scumread you because you initiating this conversation could be towny of you but the way you are handling it could be scummy of you if you understand.

Then there's this. I'm not sure if I'm somehow not understanding a couple of sentences in there or something, but I don't follow the logic at all. Frankly, this post just confuses me , and I'm struggling to understand where his scum read is coming from.

Breaking this down, the way that I'm reading this is, in post 87, Grandpa makes a (to be fair, confusing) post that casts suspicion on you and you say you don't get it. I do think there's an argument for SR Grandpa, but this one post as the main evidence is a little OMGUS-y.

[alstroemerial]

Also, I very much dislike how James just left this conversation. This looks bad for you, James.

Hold up. Wait a minute. You're giving me scum points, For Sleeping? How desperate are you?

LOL I LOVE HOW U RESPOND THIS AND CALL ME OUT FOR THIS! But you being contradicting; by not even ending up responding with it.

Can you please consider being a little nicer...? I still TR you and SR James but you make it very hard for me to be happy about it. Like, yes, people sleep? There's no need to get derisive when someone doesn't respond in the middle of the night.

On that note, I guess I'll specify that I'll be going offline to sleep within the next hour or so, maybe a post or two still today if something happens.

[alstroemerial]

Oh, by the way, I'm not too worried about some accidental hammer in the middle of the night, but I should note that Grandpa is at -2.

[alstroemerial]

Online and in the middle of catching up; so far liking Norwegian a lot more than I liked Mini, and since part of the original read was the inactivity, the current active behavior definitely outweighs the old thoughts

[alstroemerial]

Why is he commenting saying that he's an easy vote?

My guess is that it's because a lot of the current discourse has been centered around Grandpa and James, and they've gotten more of the votes, so it would be an easy move to slip onto one of those wagons rather than starting something relatively new.

[alstroemerial]

So, in conclusion, whilst I agreed with Alstroemerial (and James himself) that all this was initially NAI, at this point it does seem to be a pattern emerging which I do think adds to the very strong scum case against James.

Yes, let it be clear that my vote is still very much on James for the same reasons as prior. I'm going to try to go through and make my own concise case. I think this particular occurrence was NAI but there are other alignment indicative things -- in other words, we don't need to worry about it for a case

[alstroemerial]

Thats 3 pages, 3 reads! A read per page!

Obliged to scumread you for this LAMIST.

An example of why I'm TR-ing NEE -- pointing out something new that could have flown under the radar (in addition to the ongoing case NEE is making against Zyla). I'm getting the sense that NEE is engaging with the game with a broad lens, and I do agree that the case against Zyla instead of one of the ongoing wagons makes it more likely that NEE is town, especially if one of Grandpa/James is scum -- if NEE was one of their scumbuddies, it would make sense to try to help out by going for the other one in the pair.

[alstroemerial]

I'm going to try to go through and make my own concise case.

Update - I have to leave for dinner earlier than planned, so I won't be able to finish this beforehand. I'll return later tonight.

[alstroemerial]

Thats 3 pages, 3 reads! A read per page!

Obliged to scumread you for this LAMIST.

An example of why I'm TR-ing NEE -- pointing out something new that could have flown under the radar (in addition to the ongoing case NEE is making against Zyla). I'm getting the sense that NEE is engaging with the game with a broad lens, and I do agree that the case against Zyla instead of one of the ongoing wagons makes it more likely that NEE is town, especially if one of Grandpa/James is scum -- if NEE was one of their scumbuddies, it would make sense to try to help out by going for the other one in the pair.

Alstro do you townread me? Because me and the scumcase on Zyla from NEE allign so I am assuming they townread me. And my townread on NEE alligns with the same proposed logic on how NEE is town because they were on Zyla instead of the ongoing wagon.

I already townread you, not for those reasons, but more because I don't think a relatively new scum would get in the middle of so much direct one v one back and forth and be so aggressive.

[alstroemerial]

I'm diving back in now.

There is a part of me that is swayed by the conversations about Zyla -- I had her as one of my first SRs back when I made that first post with all the reads and nothing has really happened to change that, but I would like to keep my vote on James until he comes back and gives an opinion on the back and forth that was happening a page or so ago... or until other unlikely extenuating circumstances happen (i.e. my reread changes things dramatically, time runs out, someone slips, etc...).

[alstroemerial]

Okay, per the challenge that NEE sort of made, here is my short-as-possible explanation for being suspicious of James. I reference post numbers in the overall thread but it could be more helpful to have the ISO.

1) The initial vote on Val in 35 was pretty much an RVS joke (confirmed in post 85), but then dug in without giving additional reasoning in 39 and 64.

2) This leads into the "tunneling discourse", which you can get a general sense of from posts 66, 116, and 127. Someone pointed out that James could have been being misleading about his intent in the posts where he is later backing down. Regardless of the exact meaning that was intended, it still does strike me as unusually aggressive when, at the time it started, there wasn't a clear case laid out.

3) This is specific to if Zyla is scum, I suppose, but you can see some weird defensiveness in 91 and 149. You can also see that it's reciprocated in Zyla's ISO (including the "gut read" on James with reasons for everyone else), but I'm trying to keep this James-focused. Still, it does look to me like if you suspect Zyla, there's good reason to suspect James too.

4) The pivot to Grandpa is a bit of an OMGUS, looking at posts 115 (Grandpa) and 139-140 (James). There is a bit of a gap in terms of post numbers, yes, but this is in part filled with James working through reactions earlier in the thread.

Having this written out makes me hedge a bit on if this is my #1 go (particularly #3) but I just want to hear a bit from James before I'm comfortable thinking about moving. It's like, not changing the read, just changing who the #1 SR is potentially, depending on James's takes.

[alstroemerial]

yea so for number 3 -- what do u think about like the wall post that zyla posted of where i was saying i was an easy vote like look at post 299, last quote message

they only pointed out me and not james

Yeah, the summary of my #3 is that Zyla and James do appear to be linked. My interpretation of only pointing out you and not James is that "I am an easy vote" is a weird statement, so her focus was on that. I don't really see how that is alignment indicative from Zyla's perspective with respect to you, just odd.

[alstroemerial]

snipping other nested quotes

Alstro do you townread me? Because me and the scumcase on Zyla from NEE allign so I am assuming they townread me. And my townread on NEE alligns with the same proposed logic on how NEE is town because they were on Zyla instead of the ongoing wagon.

I already townread you, not for those reasons, but more because I don't think a relatively new scum would get in the middle of so much direct one v one back and forth and be so aggressive.

i feel like those are kinda wack reasons to townread me -- the arguement that my logic pairs up with yours makes more sense mechanically to townread me and has a better stance for that.

Well, you don't have to agree, but I'm just saying what the reason is. Your post 305 does give me weird vibes the more I think about it, and 309 doesn't make me feel better, like "Hey do you think I'm good? Here's an argument why I'm good." ... "Your argument isn't good enough use my argument instead."

I just think the universe in which Grandpa is scum and the universe in which Zyla, James, or both are scum are mutually distinct and the latter is more likely right now.

[alstroemerial]

confirmation bias is starting to take place imo.

ughhh you're right you're right, I'm just thinking in circles too, goodnight

[alstroemerial]

I don't know why you're on such a high horse but people are trying to enjoy this game there's no need to be unpleasant.

Agree

[alstroemerial]

I can't read Zyla's mind: 184 is different than mine, there's the formal comment for my not-so-formal comment just prior.

I don't understand the "formal comment" bit, but #184 is a long time AFTER #145, when you first say you and Zyla have different reasons.

Zyla seemed more like a vibe read or trying for a 1v1. At least that's what I felt about it when I read Zyla's posts.

Clear this up for me now, please: If these are the reasons you thought Zyla was scumreading Grandpa, tell me

why

. What did Zyla say or do that made you think that

before

post #145?

Feel free not to read 184. Zyla here links to a post where she explained why she scum read Grandpa. Which is earlier than 145.

Just reviving the idea in my post 192 in response to this, which is I'm not really satisfied with the linked post #103. To paraphrase, the explanation of the SR on Grandpa seems pretty weak -- nonexistent at worst and OMGUS at best. If that counts, I feel like I could point to any post where I have trouble interpreting Grandpa's post and saying that's me SRing him (obligatory disclaimer: I have for most of the game TR him but that opinion is sliding down gradually as time goes on)

pedit: Val and I on a similar level

Looking at 103, it looks like the main part where you talk about Grandpa is below (spoilered to try to control length).

Spoiler:

I have never lost a game with a D1 no lim on here.

Here

is where it goes from "what's the meaning of your vote?" to scum reading.

That's quite interesting, considering I haven't even found a game of yours that had a D1 No Lim. I guess you're 0for0 instead of 7for7

Why are they saying that they never lost a game that they've never played? (And if I missed the one where it did, why are they treating 1 or 2 as a rule?)

Yes, I lied to you, it wasn't just because I pointed it out to say "it was funny", I pointed it out because I knew this was going to happen, and you weren't going to realize it after questioning hence why I had to lie so I can drop it off. But since, it has escalated ever since, the only reason this conversation happened was because VFP did a no lim. It's really NAI, and it seems like you are trying to set him up as scum for it. Yes, maybe he could be scum however, this is something more of NAI in my opinion, and shouldn't be taken as a regard. Many people no lim on day 1 and many people vote on day 1.

We will all be voting regardless by day 1, so there is no point to continue this conversation. I thought you would stop because you would find it unnecessary and NAI to keep going about a specific vote, specifically a no lim.

But you didn't.

So I will give you scumpings for this. I don't fully scumread you because you initiating this conversation could be towny of you but the way you are handling it could be scummy of you if you understand.

Then there's this. I'm not sure if I'm somehow not understanding a couple of sentences in there or something, but I don't follow the logic at all. Frankly, this post just confuses me , and I'm struggling to understand where his scum read is coming from.

Breaking this down, the way that I'm reading this is, in post 87, Grandpa makes a (to be fair, confusing) post that casts suspicion on you and you say you don't get it. I do think there's an argument for SR Grandpa, but this one post as the main evidence is a little OMGUS-y.

[alstroemerial]

While I agree that there's no obvious good reason to withhold a read, I can think of some thoughts that it might be wise to hold on to. For example, I have been doing some thinking along the lines of "If ____ gets killed during N1, that implies ____", but I feel like posting that instantly makes it worthless because of all the WIFOM.

I've been having some other thoughts that I'm not sure if it is good to post or not, but the net sum of them is I'm less and less sure that pursuing James and Zyla is a good idea now that I've read things over and thought things through more. With that in mind and because I want to mix up the current momentum, I'm going to try UNVOTE: James and VOTE: VFP because I'm still not satisfied with the coasting.

[alstroemerial]

Okay, fair, but do you at least agree that if we all did it we'd be in a bit of a problem?
How about specific questions instead of general please for content? Early in the game you gave town reads on Grandpa as well as Zyla and T3 to a lesser extent. Since then you've changed your stance on Grandpa for reasons you outlined recently. Are your opinions on Zyla and T3 still the same?

[alstroemerial]

EBWOP: This was directed at VFP

[alstroemerial]

Okay, fair, but do you at least agree that if we all did it we'd be in a bit of a problem?

Can I ask you to clarify what you meant by "it" here, Alstroemarial?

This is embarrassing but I meant it as a response to...

You call it coasting.
I call it laying low and trying to avoid being scum read.

And the big lag is because I thought the page bottom was the most recent post, and then I saw the top of page 18, and didn't realize 2 pages of content had happened while I was gone... The pace really picked up suddenly...

[alstroemerial]

Hhhhhhh the fact that we went from H-4 to H-1 in fewer than 20 posts makes me really nervous. UNVOTE: VFP and VOTE: Cook due to the juxtaposition of the four most recent posts in the ISO. I should also note that the 9 prior posts don't really have any content besides actually

starting

the trust tell that several people have been ragging on Zyla for.

I'm on team "real life is a thing and so we shouldn't read TOO much in the time between posts because we don't know availability" but it's more the "I'm alright with this" coming straight from a townread with nothing in between, and 380 is something but I don't think it's sufficient.

Spoiler:

TR VFP
SL James
SR GrandpaMo, Val89, MiniMegabyte

i forgot u were someone in this game

can u explain ur reads?

I modded for Scum!VFP. Play here isn't indicative of that play there.
At the time, JamesTheNames gave me

vibes

of scumminess, same with Mo and Val.

Low content and in a quick burst from MM.

VOTE: VFP

i'm alright with this

I call it laying low and trying to avoid being scum read.

Why is that important to a townie?

I don't want to be the lim today >:|

VOTE: VFP

i'm alright with this

This is a dishonourable betrayal!

Inverted BBB's Gambit

By claiming Town and expressing a desire to not die to the elimination, Town will proceed to eliminate you.

Then, using IBBB's Gambit, you can then, as scum, draw association to whoever you want so that any attacks made by that person to you, dead confscum, appear to be scum distancing.

[alstroemerial]

VOTE: Jame

can we just hurry up and get a lim already ?

im already frustrated enough

this flip will tell us alot of info regardless of allignment.

I agree a James lim would tell us a lot (in fact, I think any of the three you listed as candidates for today would tell us a lot), but I believe we haven't even used half of our allotted time for the day, so there's no need to hurry, I think. I was more worried about stagnating than running out of time, and the game got a huge burst of energy this (EST) afternoon.

[alstroemerial]

Confession: Every time Post 299 comes up my eyes glaze over a bit because as it goes on the syntax reads more and more like a conspiracy theory on the internet and it's really hard to take seriously

[alstroemerial]

SNIP

u talking bout this? lol

Yes hahaha

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1. a james flip will tell the interactions between zyla. if james flips town ..... zyla is probably scum af

I personally think either being scum makes the other more likely to be scum, but if one flips town then it's a little more NAI

[alstroemerial]

after skimming just wondering how the atmosphere degraded even

more

in the last two or so hours...? I'm not even going to try to do this post-by-post, just gonna do a wall under a spoiler, brb

[alstroemerial]

Two small reactions/thoughts

Spoiler:

I'm gonna laugh if my half-joke, half-OMGUS hero-solve was correct, but the two of you are

really

making it look good right now

But if VFP’s only SR was Grandpa, that’s a decent bus, then again Grandpa is really playing maybe like he’s trying to get offed and maybe give VFP some towncred

u think t3 is possible more liable to be my scumpartner than val?

t3 the person who i scumread?

do you think i would bus as scum here?

WIFOM / generally protecting T3 potentially…?

I don’t like how in the 100s (I forget the exact post number) Mo outlined a scenario where I could be scum (backing off a bit once T3 pushed a bit), and since then has been pushing me as town or general oddness the more that people have TR me… (see below)

Spoiler:

Alstro do you townread me? Because me and the scumcase on Zyla from NEE allign so I am assuming they townread me. And my townread on NEE alligns with the same proposed logic on how NEE is town because they were on Zyla instead of the ongoing wagon.

i feel like those are kinda wack reasons to townread me -- the arguement that my logic pairs up with yours makes more sense mechanically to townread me and has a better stance for that.

snip my quote

this is so fucking town. i just rread this. u have the exact same paranoia of vfp going to e-1 for no reason literally reason.

honestly i just feel like im being fearkilled.

its okay tho alstro's the only one who actually can read the fucking game lol

and understand all of my response / quotes

@Zyla @VPF @Val89 @NorweiganBoy @Cook @T3 @Astro @The person I accidentally forgot:
Thoughts on the nonsense of GrandpaMo unvoting me only to revote after asked about it?

Honestly? Based on the style and overwhelming frequency of posts, including double/triple/etc posting, it looks like GrandpaMo is sometime just going stream-of-consciousness style. So whereas there was a period of time, for example, where I was going back and forth on you, I kept my vote on you until I was pretty sure I wanted to vote someone else instead of unvoting and revoting every time – on the other hand, I think GrandpaMo was just going with his immediate thought process. I went and found a few Mo games just to see and it seems he is just like that in general so I don’t think it’s immediately alignment indicative.

? what i literally asked you.

and you still havent fucking addressed my other points??????

There's no need for getting angry or anything over this game. If I'm scum you have days to convince people. If you're scum just trying to get me hammered you have days to do it. I'm trying to enjoy this game just as much as you are.

What does this have to do with anything??

I am literally exposing you right now because you haven't answered jackshit LOL

you are so scum.

It has to do with the fact that we are literally trying to play a

game

on the

internet

and you’re constantly cursing at people, using a condescending tone, and generally speaking being a bit of an asshole. That has nothing to do with alignment, per se, but the fact that it’s putting an unreasonable damper in light of the fact that we’re all spending our free time playing this together…

I also don’t like how Mo keeps claiming he has James cornered when he objectively does not?

[alstroemerial]

wait how does NEE already have more posts than me...
but maybe I still exceed if you count words instead

[alstroemerial]

Anyway, I was kind of writing that post to see if I could talk myself into a GrandpaMo case but I just can't do it with full confidence, though if it ultimately comes down to Grandpa vs James as it seems to be doing, I'd probably go with Grandpa... I would rather we spend the next (real-life) day or two pressuring a Cook or a VFP (one of Mo's "Laid backs" I think it was called), but it looks like the momentum isn't there at all

[alstroemerial]

alas, things change

[alstroemerial]

Nice try but I don't agree with you on every point. If you go through my ISO I have been hesitant on James since the 300s culminating in my unvote back on 368.

So I'm scum again because I don't like you as much anymore? Cool cool.

[alstroemerial]

James answered our concern to my more-or-less satisfaction, at least relative to other people, awhile ago, but you seem to keep insisting he hasn't

[alstroemerial]

ebwop: our refers to the collective massive batch of questions people had when he was offline for awhile

[alstroemerial]

James answered our concern to my more-or-less satisfaction, at least relative to other people, awhile ago, but you seem to keep insisting he hasn't

where r u ? he still hasnt answered anything. im literally quoting where he hasnt

looking at the combined ISOs of Grandpa+James he's acknowledged everything reasonable. It's debatable if the answers are enough to throw off suspicion but it's pretty quickly devolved into you just quoting yourself with things that have already been answered and then just being derisive.

do u think we could be tvt?

Potentially! The only scenario I'm ruling out entirely is SvS because I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have gotten this far. It's early enough in the game that we could all be barking up completely the wrong tree. Like VFP alluded to awhile back (yes, I know VFP isn't looking great but I agree with this sentiment in particular), a lot of Day 1 is reaching around and hoping something will stick, since we don't have much to go on. However...

I have to say that recent posting by Grandpa is also starting to give me the creeps.

^this

[alstroemerial]

One last post before I call it a night: At this point I would in theory be comfortable voting for Grandpa and the only reason I'm not is that given the pace of the game, I don't want to leave my vote somewhere that I could potentially miss a hammer while I'm gone for an extended period of time (sleeping). In fact, UNVOTE: Cook just to be safe, though like I said I doubt that's going anywhere.

[alstroemerial]

I love how after that post the game died for a bit... have no fear, I am back, and based on my skim of the thread it looks like I have WORK to do by others' request, stay tuned

[alstroemerial]

I'll be closer to ready to vote after today's analysis... Currently working through all of James's ISO in heavy detail with fresher eyes. I intend to put my vote down on James or Grandpa depending on how I feel at the end of it. Either I'll have a case for town James as requested and lay my vote on Grandpa, or I'll go back and change my opinion AGAIN and go back to scum James like I was in the first place.

With that being said, Grandpa, I haven't gotten to the parts of the game you quoted yet but I am getting there and have not forgotten posts 571/572.

At the time of writing this, James has 63 posts in his ISO and this covers the first ten (ugh this might take a while), which in turn covers the first 85 posts of the whole game. Color-coded to indicate how I think it affects alignment potential, if at all.

TL;DR

it's a bit of a mixed bag so far with the needle slightly closer to scum than town.
Small NAI posts: 23 (colorblind), 40 (Joking around with Zyla), 69 and 82-83(no lim bad),
35: A very early hero solve which is fairly common from what I’ve seen, on T3 and Val
38: Val encourages the hero solve with a slightly joking tone, and James casts shade on Val in a confusing way but notes it’s still RVS (I think this was all a genuine misunderstanding,

but could be OMGUS even if it was a genuine misinterpretation

)

39: Immediately says he’s satisfied with his vote on Val, apparently a bit of a contradiction

64: Still happy with vote on Val, no reason why

66: Val starts hinting at a SL on James in 65, and he says Val is hypocritical. This all appears to come from a misunderstanding that Val didn’t mean 36 in a lighthearted way.
85: A response to 72, which is Val’s initial case against James culminating in a vote. James said he didn’t want to post a wall, but just to really check that he responded to everything I am going to wall it.

Spoiler:

Val says:

My reason for dressing up an RVS vote in the amount of verbiage I did was to make sure there was at least something substantial to discuss. I thought between that, and "hi im new; hah your name suks vote: random" the former would at least give us all something to bite at from page 2, maybe draw out something to work with. I believe it has. As soon as it has, the RVS stage is done, right? We have something serious to discuss.

This isn’t explicitly addressed with a response but we get into the topic of the RVS hypocrisy wall thing below.
Val

You said the same in #38, and I addressed it in #42. I'm not following. I made a claim or suggestion about the scum team. So did you. I said I like that approach, and would like to encourage more of it. You somehow thought that stance was hypocritical. Perhaps I am misunderstand the meaning of the word, but hypocritical to me is engaging in behaviour you criticize others for.
I'll give you benefit of the doubt, I personally think

"as you can see, I am a fan of getting right to the heart of it, and your page 2 solve is just sort of thing I like to see"

is pretty clear I wasn't leveling any sort of criticism and instead praising it, but I'll assume you took something in my tone as somehow sarcastic and I was in fact trying to direct some sort of veiled shade towards you.

James

First of all addressing the hypocritical thing, we both did the same/or similar things, admittedly in different ways, saying a pair we could guess as a scum pair. Both were obviously not the most serious of things. You claimed somebody was essentially a strong scum read and voted someone else, which if taken seriously would mean you'd find them both hard scum, a scum pair, I said a page 2 prediction. You can argue over semantics whether that is serious or not or you can just take my word on it.
"and your page 2 solve is just sort of thing I like to see" in post 36.
Considering town should be scum hunting, this clearly means you find something scummy about what I did, yet you did the same thing, ergo, hypocritical. Or at least this is how I interpreted it and still do.
Next.
You said you were praising it, that is disingenuous as far as I'm concerned.

This seems like all blown out over a disagreement over tone turning into a disagreement over content as a result.
Val

I should clarify, "your page 2 solve is just sort of thing I like to see" was a serious statement. I like the fact you came out with a solve straight off the bat - and I was attempting to encourage more of it.

I can't, however, think for the life of me why you would read that and STILL believe I am somehow being disingenuous.

In fact, only one scenario makes sense - you are scum, and so hypersensitive to any sort of shade whatsoever that you read it where it isn't there

- and in fact, continue to do so when pointed out explicitly that it isn't.
I think anyone reading my ISO can see I've taken a consistent approach here. I make a rando solve, you make one, I say 'good on you, lets have more of that, and maybe have some more discussion about it'. I'm failing to see the hypocrisy.

James, directly responded to the bolded part:

do you not also see how far-fetched that is? Someone could misinterpret something or disagree with a statement you make ergo, they are bad at the game flailing scum

I’m

a little inclined to side with James on this specific point

– I think the crux of Val’s argument here is that the only way Val’s statement could be misinterpreted is maliciously, but I don’t think that’s true. We’ve had a lot of misunderstandings in this game so far.
Val comparing a prior James game

But in any case, lets compare and contrast your approach here with Town!James in the only completed game I have to look at, namely #2064. For context, you replaced into the game into a slot D1, and having read the thread you quickly postedthis list of reads, with justification for each.

Some of the stuff said here is very interesting -

my personal opinion is post length isn't indicative but can be a nod in a direction with enough context.

I happen to agree. I'll let others read how you opened your town game and compare it to this one, and see if that's context enough for them. It is for me.

he may not enjoy walls, but a "why" wouldn't hurt to have. Meh.

Explains himself, nice

Please post more

It appears he is actually bothered by certain people's post quality and relavance, annoyance at lack of content being created, I'm not very experienced but this just feels towny to me

I mean, its pretty clear that Town!James thinks that talking openly and honestly about your reads and votes, early and often, is pro-town behaviour and based almost all of his initial reads off some variation of that exact justification. You go ahead and, as town, make sure you include your own justification without prompting, from the open.

And then this game, we get this:

Oh well. I am satisfied with my vote.

I'm still happy with my vote.

Yeah, I've seen enough now to convince myself I'm not falling in to OMGUS trap.

VOTE: JamesTheNames

James response:

You also go into reading my one previous game, I was pressured there for a while,

you can see how I responded there

if you really want to.
Next.

You quote from my one previous game on the site where I replaced in, and this is important to say and clarify, after, the RVS stage ended. There is a large difference in how serious page 1 and 2 are compared to 7 and 8. Not to mention, I've played one game on this site,

sure I was town and town won which is nice, but that doesn't mean I'm going to play the same way game 2.

Meta under bias, going in thinking that somebody is scum and going with a comb to find what could be deemed as scummy, isn't great. I personally don't think meta is a genuine reason to vote somebody ever but as I've said this is my second game.

It is true that replacing in is very different than starting from RVS, especially considering the exchange in this game was happening in the first 100 posts, relatively soon out of RVS

. I disagree with the extremity of James’s take on meta, in that I think it can be useful. I think the bolded part is a bit questionable, but I’ve also been considering trying different playstyles game-to-game so I don’t think it’s immediately damning.

[alstroemerial]

Unofficial VC:
VFP: Zyla (1)
Grandpa: Cook, VFP (3)
Zyla: NEE (1)
James: James, Grandpa (2)
Not Voting: T3, Alstro (2)

[alstroemerial]

EBWOP: That is not correct hang on

[alstroemerial]

Here we go
Unofficial VC:
VFP: Zyla (1)
Grandpa:

James,

Cook, VFP (3)

H-2

Zyla: NEE (1)
James:

Val,

Grandpa (2)
Not Voting: T3, Alstro (2)

[alstroemerial]

Yeah I guess I am waiting to hammer until I get my feelings sorted out. Is it bad to prolong the day? PEDIT: I see the argument that it's better to lock in a VT miselim than risk a PR miselim, but I agree even more that trying to get a little more dialogue in doesn't hurt, right...?

Anyway this ISO piece by piece is taking way longer than I thought it would so I might not do the whole exercise written out and just try to push through it on my own, but here's how far I got.

James ISO Analysis Part 2: Covering his posts 11-22 In-game 86-140, excluding ISO 21/post 139
Low-content NAI: 120, 137 (some joke I don’t get)
86: Questions the logic in Grandpa Mo’s post 84, which is the end of a strange interaction between Grandpa and Val that seems to end pretty amicably,

with James questioning the veracity of the tactic in the first place

91:

Weird attack on Grandpa slash defense of Zyla – saying “Still much better than yours [Mo] regarding Val89” – in my opinion it was very similar except for post length

93: Says Val is flaking in response to Val’s criticism post 92 of James 85 (the big wall I did in my prior post). I’m not really sure what is meant, because as mentioned in post 95, I think we’re not all on the same page regarding the meaning of the word. On one hand 93 isn’t really a “response” to anything in 92, but there wasn’t much new to respond to, just a reiteration of some points up to now, and confirming that this is all serious and not RVS stuff.
116-117: A response to my “debut” post 100 that ends in me voting him. My main “new” concern besides those Val brought up was the tunnelling thing. He addresses this by his treasure metaphor, from which we can see that what James meant by tunnelling wasn’t ‘putting on blinders’ but rather ‘establishing a focus for a period of time’, not necessarily the whole in-game day, further confirmed in post 127.
138: Emphasizing “no comment yet” in Grandpa’s 128, and goes on in 140 to argue that this isn’t townsided to withhold the information, combined with post 139 (digging in later) and the unnecessary tone causes James to move vote from Val to Grandpa. To me this is fair reasoning but also potentially an OMGUS

[alstroemerial]

D:

[alstroemerial]

Meh was working on an "if I die, here's what I think for tomorrow based on my death and the grandpa flip" but it seems stupid to post because of wine contamination

[alstroemerial]

oh hi James

what I mean is that if I say "here's what it means if I die", that statement kind of instantly becomes Wine In Front of Me

[alstroemerial]

Since James has appeared why don't we wait to hammer for a bit so he has a chance to say any thoughts?

[alstroemerial]

I feel like I can make a case for myself for scum James or scum Grandpa but not both at the same time so I'm in a bit of a pickle

[alstroemerial]

ughhh they're both pretty weak to be completely honest which is disappointing because I like you so far personally. it's slightly stronger for you but I think that is partially clouded by emotion.

If nothing new happens in the next few hours I'll probably just hammer so things continue to move :/ I feel like we're running out of info to get on D1 without seeing a flip and a kill.

[alstroemerial]

u think t3 is possible more liable to be my scumpartner than val?

t3 the person who i scumread?

Yes, I do think t3 is more liable than Val to be your scumpartner because of x.
No, I do not think T3 is more liable than Val to be your scumpartner because of x.

do you think i would bus as scum here?

Yes, I would think you bus here because of x..
No, I would think you don't here because of x.

@James, this is one that I couldn't find an answer for and I would be curious about when you get to it!

[alstroemerial]

I've seen enough horror movies to know never look back.

We are Orpheus with the insights Eurydice holds taunting us from pages ago.............

[alstroemerial]

Is it normal to feel a little burnt out on page 26 or have I been putting too much time in

[alstroemerial]

@ Grandpa
Yeah, but like you said, the answer James gave was "it was a back up" which is different than "t3 is more/less likely than Val"

[alstroemerial]

Is it normal to feel a little burnt out on page 26 or have I been putting too much time in

This is a heavy reading game compared to most.
Also normally in newbies there's mostly a lim by this point... so it gets better!

Also reading other games, it looks like days sometimes get shorter over time with fewer people and more information at hand
Don't get the wrong idea, I'm really enjoying myself, just phew, a little more effort than I expected

[alstroemerial]

yeai was showing u how they have been deflecting etc

Right, yeah, that's why I requoted it and flagged it as a "please be sure to answer this"

I think we're on the same page here?

[alstroemerial]

Grandpa is town.

Why do you think so?

[alstroemerial]

Here is the thing. My scum reads have changed over the course of last couple of pages since everything started to take off.

Alstro

I still have as town.

James

I still have as strong scum, and the fact that nobody has been able - or willing - to even attempt to articulate any case why James is not scum other than the "seems town, you'll get why later" thing you told me was trash gives me no pause that I'm on the wrong track. I

want

to believe that you lot are seeing something that I'm not; I realise I'm basically a lone-voice in having James as a strong scumread at this point, and its possible that I've erred somewhere. But reading everything again, even with the best will in the world - even making the mental assumption that I've seen him flip town already and I'm going back with that foreknowledge -

I just can't see it.

Zyla

, on the other hand, has dug her way out of my scum pile.

Norwee

replaces her there.

Cook

I can't get a handle on. VFP and t3 have swapped positions - I consider

t3

a townlean, and

VFP

a scumlean at this point.

And there there is

Grandpa

, whom, despite all my misgivings, I still think is more likely to flip green than they are red. I am in agreement that unless both have put in an Oscar winning performance {James, GrandpaMo} just isn't the scum pairing in this game. Either one is red, or both are green.

So, assume with lim Grandpa today. He flips red. Great, I was wrong about James. I eat my brown Homberg hat and face the fact that I might not be as good at reading as I thought. But if he flips green - which I think is the most likely outcome - what do we know then?

Oh these are interesting. I agree that Zyla has shifted to a townier position with her activity yesterday, though if Grandpa flips green and James flips red, that would really tank the read. What concerns you about Norwee? I have them as a townlean right now. Also, based on your three reds, do you think {James, Norwee} is most likely? Or {James, VFP}?

Personally here is where I sit right now, but my association reads are in conflict with my

individual

reads:

Val,

Zyla, NEE, T3,

Cook, VFP,

James, Grandpa

But despite the above

, I also see the following, with "=>" and "<=>" indicating logic conditionals: James scum <=> Zyla scum, Grandpa scum => James town, James scum => Grandpa town, VFP scum => Grandpa town, and, to a much smaller extent, I see a universe in which Val and Grandpa are partners if Grandpa flips scum.

[alstroemerial]

hahaha Zyla gosh you've missed an ongoing headache that makes yesterday look like nothing

Cook's vote was already there I think so that's not a hammer yet

Agree with Zyla's statement -- if you are town, Grandpa, it would be a lot easier to have a conversation if you'd slow down and condense your ideas a bit more

gotta backtrack through these new pages and try to figure out what on earth is happening now

[alstroemerial]

The juxtaposition of posts 684 and 685 are almost comical combined with whatever on earth happened with grandpa on page 29.

I'm going to consider Val's case on Norwee a bit more closely -- during that time, anyone can feel free to convince me not to hammer after I'm done

[alstroemerial]

TL;DR

I see the argument for Norwee, especially with James, but it's not jumping to my top SR or anything right now because I think a chunk of it could be written up as a different playstyle.

What concerns you about Norwee?

A couple of things.

[spoiler='Lets not talk about that'.]

In post 249, Val89 wrote:
"He's town because he gives no shits about doing this things he says town should do, I'm an SE slot you newb so trust me." I ain't buying that.

Ok, newb.

This was the first thing to ping me. It seemed like we were having a productive conversation that was helping me sort what my case about James really was - it was genuinely helpful to me, but it was being helpful in strengthening my read rather than poke holes in it; and I think the second Norwee picked up I wasn't moving in the town!James direction, he drops it hard. It was written off later as a joke, which I buy, but you could substitute "Let's drop it then" for the joke, and that doesn't seem like something town would do.

I feel like when we (me + alstro) have disagreements on reads, we thrash it out, and even if we don't come to the same conclusion at the end, its been helpful. That seems like a more town approach than "if I can't convince you, let's drop it".

Whilst at the time I thought the whole thing was helpful, and Norwee was townleading for starting it, I think it retrospect Norwee just pegged me as a wordy guy, and bet on me not being able to summarise the case, in which case he could point to that and go "See, its crap". I note the initial target of that was Grandpa, whom strikes me as a person who was even less likely to be able to sum up the case concisely.[/spoiler]

I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's

that

different from when you and I might disagree; it's just that you and I are wordier than NEE, like you allude to. Did it end on a bit of a sour note? Yeah, but like you said, eventually when two people disagree, there's eventually a point where you have to drop it, and maybe that was his way of jokingly going for it...?The conversation lasted awhile, so it wasn't like a total shut down. The "picked up I wasn't moving in the town direction and dropped it hard" thing could be the same as "we aren't going to agree right now so I'll drop it" also, no?

Spoiler: Case on Zyla

The case against Zyla also seemed a little forced. At the time, I agreed Zyla was one of my scumreads; and there has been a case made that Norwee is townleaning because they didn't immediately jump on James or Grandpa wagon; and instead tried to start something new again Zyla. Personally, I can see a world in which a scum!Norwee doesn't want to throw his lot in with the Grandpa wagon, which, at the time - was Zyla and James; and if James is is scum partner, and it's pretty clear I am leading the push against his scum buddy. Knowing my other SR is Zyla, and knowing they are going to flip green, he moves on that; not so much to start some new discussion overall, but to get ME to focus somewhere else; and he was pretty straightforward about it too.

The case he gives is, in retrospect, a little underwhelming too. First he takes issue with Zyla quickly switching over to Grandpa "when seeing no reaction from [her] "wanting no lim is scummy" vote on VFP." (#273); but isn't that exactly what he himself did? Saw the Zyla wagon wasn't taking off and switch to Grandpa?

Then there is the "trust tell" thing, which I don't buy. If fact, it seems like one of those 'buzzwordy' type cases that sound really strong he might be able to slip past the newbs, particularly as you [Alstro] expressed confusion on the point just before he joined. Reading into it, it amounts to nothing, and the fact noone else has ad anything to say makes me thing its obviously nothing, but he tried to sell it as if it was totally damning.

Yeah, out of the three you give, this is the one that I personally find the most compelling. The logic of the first paragraph makes sense especially from an SE, one replacing in who is trying to think of first impressions and maybe has input from a scumbuddy. I personally think the case is alright, but the potential motive for the case is noteworthy.

Spoiler: Drop it or you are scum

I don’t think James is scum here, but the extreme tenacity some slots have in continuing to keep that spark of hope that we lim James today alive is quite telling too. And i think you should know who i mean.

What do you make of this? There's nothing explicit here, but I read it as an implicit threat; and I think it's aimed at me. "You [Val] need to drop this James thing, else I'm going to start calling you scum". Nah, sorry, but telling someone who thinks they have scum in their sight they need to drop it doesn't read as town to me. By all means, attack the argument, say you disagree and why, and make your own case, but this sort of thing pings me as scummy.

Yes, this is definitely an implicit threat. The only people who have voted James at any point today are Zyla (RVS, so doesn't really mean much), you [Val], me, and Grandpa. But I haven't been pushing it that hard because to be fair I've been pretty indecisive. At least, Grandpa and Val have been pushing it more at different points earlier during the day. If James was a scum partner per your earlier theory in the Zyla chunk, this would likely be aimed at setting up for you, especially with how NEE eventually shifted over to Grandpa in the end.
On the other hand, this whole post could also just be taken as an implicit way of saying: "I think people who are pushing James are scummy because I think James is town and I'm not naming names", which is passive aggressive, yeah, and maybe a weak reason for reading, but it's kind of something?

All in all, I think there is a case for a {James, Norwee} pair, but there's one for a {James, VFP} pair too, and I don't have enough to say which I think is more likely yet. James is a strong read, but both Norwee and VFP are scumleans - here is some of the stuff that pinged me on Norwee, and I think the stuff that pinged me about VFP is obvious from the questions I posed above; but I don't think the case on either of them is anywhere near as conclusive as the stuff on James is.

I could see both of the above as possibilities.

I think something that also concerns me even more about NEE is the "I'm not reading any walls" take, which seems is scum-aligned at worst and lazy at best. But given the shorter postings, etc, I'm at this point comfortable chalking it up to different playstyle. In particular, I'm noticing that the newbies are more likely to wall and make long posts while the SEs are more likely to keep a short and sweet approach across the board.

[alstroemerial]

Grandpa is town for the reaction.

This feels silly, like
T3: Grandpa is town
Grandpa: Okay I changed my mind T3 is town now because they didn't hammer me also some meta
T3: Ok Grandpa is town even more

I agree with Grandpa's logic in the reaction, that not hammering at this point is something townie, but also, like, WIFOM at this point on anyone who was under suspicion who goes on to rush a hammer and doesn't, you know? And especially when you consider the meltdown that happened between Grandpa's reaction in 675 and T3's post in 742... I just don't follow the logic at all.

[alstroemerial]

damn i guess im hammered well gl town

Cook was already voting you so not yet

[alstroemerial]

this is the real flailing scum

imagine if this post was referring to yourself

and realize how accurate that feels as well

VOTE: GrandpaMo

In my current solvestate, James or Mo goes today.

[alstroemerial]

+1 another time where alstro says they agree wit me but continues to scumread me sad!

I'm holding off the hammer because you're so 50/50, like sometimes I read your post and I'm like yeah!!! and sometimes I just

Can you tell I'm tired-posting? Articulation decreasing. Bed soon.

[alstroemerial]

and u think thats scummy? cuz thats how i play as my town playstyle -- i like for town to listen to my thoughts // and gain negative or postiive reactions from them.

Maybe not immediately "scummy" in my opinion but if it makes it more difficult for your teammates (i.e. other town) then it's probably worth refining a bit. You can share all your thoughts while just making sure to write in a way that is more coherent. Syntax and proofreading go a long way

[alstroemerial]

Townslip moment.

Now unvote.

how is that a townslip lol

Could be tired-posting hell but here's where my brain is at:
If Grandpa genuinely thought he was hammered (which I think is the case), then his immediately subsequent posts tell a lot. Being like "good luck town" and continuing to maintain being town and working toward a game solve is more town than just being like "lol ok bye"

in my sleepy delirium I want to toss out a half-baked new possibility for us to maybe chew on. What about {VFP, NEE}? Yeah, this means that all of this Val James Grandpa has been a TvTvT clusterf*** with those two watching from the sidelines and feeding the fire every now and then based in part on where the sentiment of the group seems to be going. Consider that they were the H-2 and H-1 posts within 7 posts of each other (585 and 592), maybe trying to give it a burst of momentum? I'm writing this purely off of notes and not going back to the ISOs tonight, but just had this paranoid sinking feeling that what if we're completely off the wrong track and the newbies are just eating each other alive??

[alstroemerial]

what's tyt? I found the alien game and I'm going to look at it tomorrow when I'm more awake

goodnight

[alstroemerial]

I also see the view counter going up meaning someone is coming in and out without posting.

guilty, been popping in and out without time to post just to follow along and reduce the amount of time I have to spend catching up later

still a few pages behind, working through

[alstroemerial]

wait a minute fuck hang on wait god huh

[alstroemerial]

I'm in shock and don't have a lot of thoughts to be honest just in awe.

796 was a good catch I missed

Also, the fact that NEE and Cook voted for VFP literally within 2 minutes of each other is interesting and makes me think they definitely wouldn't be a team because that would just be too weird, right? It's a pair I haven't really even considered a possibility but just for the record

VOTE: VFP

So this is the difference. Scum pretend to want to self hammer here like Grampa did.

Oh god the irony

I'm starting to think my hesitation to end the day and hammer back when we were at H-1 on Grandpa was a mistake

On top of everything, the accidental self hammer is making this a WEIRD game

I poked around the Alien game as well as 2 games where Grandpa was town for comparison (a weird open and a baking newbie) and I see that some things like tone and post type are probably more playstyle than alignment indicative, the alien game (scum grandpa) had a lot more incomprehensible walls and general hostility -- and also, just, it seems, more posts period when scum than when town. So, looking at the other games didn't make me feel any better.

Going to look at the VFP wagons for a bit pre-emptively

[alstroemerial]

Is it customary that the thread locks without warning once the mod is ready, in other words, should I just post what I have as I have it rather than risking taking the time to make one long post?

[alstroemerial]

alstro pls carry tmr . i belive in alstro and t3

yk what since t3 cant claim masons wit me can u claim wit me pls

thank you for the confidence but alas I cannot claim what isn't true

[alstroemerial]

Votes on VFP

Spoiler: Recap of the Two VFP Wagons

80: Zyla votes VFP for the no elim defense debacle, but relatively quickly moves to Grandpa in 118; Grandpa was her other hero solve member but didn't really provide a reason

Rapid Wagon One:
355: Zyla switches back from Grandpa to VFP, though the post is mostly about Val and Grandpa. The reason is short but multipronged:

They've posted almost nothing substantial this entire game, said they were going to vote someone at 317 and never followed through, and from reading a random sample of 3 of their town ISOs, I don't think it's just playstyle.

368: Here's my vote, switched over from my initial vote on James. It was mostly just to put pressure on someone suspicious besides James, since the conversation there was stalling and I was dissatisfied with VFP's lack of content at the time.
377: Cook hops on about half an hour with no explanation at all. Prior vote was an RVS on the first page, so this is Cook's first serious vote.
382: T3 votes in hopes that pressure will "actually make VFP play the game", which to be fair is basically the reason I voted as well.
And with that we get from nothing to H-1 in about 2 hours and one page.

Disintegration of Wagon One:
395: T3 almost immediately hops off the wagon (five minutes later) once he realizes that he put VFP at H-1. He mentions in 384 that he didn't even really SR VFP but just wanted to make VFP post.
440: I switch my vote over to Cook because I freaked over how fast we got to H-1 and the quiet jump from Cook TR VFP to jumping on the wagon.
531: Cook switches vote to Grandpa. No posts were made between justifying the vote on VFP with one extra post (380) and this one. Because I was paranoid and foolish, I unvoted Cook 30-ish posts later which I really regret while writing this post.
Now we are back with only Zyla voting for VFP.

I should note that between Wagon One and Wagon Two, VFP switched from No Lim to making the firm case against Grandpa, with the vote in 585.

Rapid Wagon Two:
850: NEE gets the ball rolling with no explicit reason, presumably in reaction to the conflict between VFP and Grandpa (?)
851: Literally within two minutes, Cook joins in. Given the formatting in Cook's post, I honestly believe Cook was working on this post before NEE's posted, but still, this does kind of look like Cook being opportunistic three for three here. I think this third one is a bit of a fluke though because of the incredibly close timing.
888: Grandpa votes for VFP in a climactic moment of their argument
889: VFP accidentally self-hammers by posting nearly simultaneously with Grandpa.
I should also note that Zyla attempts to look like she is voting but stopped in a pedit because Val demonstrated that her original vote from 355 is still there in 873.

To summarize the order of events:
Wagon 1: Zyla, Alstro, Cook, T3
Getting Off Wagon 1: T3, Alstro, Cook (Zyla on the whole time)
Wagon 2: NEE, Cook, Grandpa, VFP (ouch)

I'm inclined to think VFP is town based on the way these last few pages have played out, and to me that makes Cook look pretty bad when you read over how the wagon developed. And we'd likely still want to go for Grandpa at that point. I'd be leaning some combination {Cook, Grandpa, NEE}. It's weird because I have in my notes that they SR each other early in the game, but I'm trying to get this post out quick for now.

If VFP flips scum, then of course the situation is very different. I don't think Cook would just be tossing a vote on like that especially at points where it wasn't like, "oh it's inevitable guess I gotta bus to look good later". In that case, I'd want to actually take a closer look at James, who was heavily discussed earlier but has fallen out of focus, in large part due to discussions centering around VFP and Grandpa.

I'm now running low on thoughts for today. I'm ready to see a flip and get things moving.

[alstroemerial]

waiting for the day to end at this point

[alstroemerial]

I agree the Zyla kill was not what I was expecting... For now I want to roll the ball with VOTE: GrandpaMo

[alstroemerial]

Ohhhh this reminds me of something wait wait wait

[alstroemerial]

... It may be between VFP and Grandpa today for the elimination, but we are

definitely

going to be taking a close look at Cook.

This is literally the last non-joke post Zyla made

[alstroemerial]

^ Actually I'll tell you how I feel regarding Cook regardless of what T3 may or may not explain, even though I dislike how little input we get from Cook I don't think Cook is scum, there isn't a world Cook kills Zyla, I don't think.

Who do you think is a likely scum partner for T3 if not Cook? Do you think GrandpaMo and T3 is a possible team?

What's everyone's read on Cook?

I've been SL or SR-ing Cook for almost the whole game and Cook hasn't done anything to make me change my mind.

^ This does indeed mean I think Val89 is actually the most town currently.

Did Val do something particularly towny that made you change your mind, or is Val towny more by PoE based on the association reads? Just comparing to back here

252
If I had to say at gun point, probably Val89 or TF3, considering the really unnatural pocketing you did, it also doesn't have to be for reasons of: "let me pocket you so we can hammer James". It could just be used for later on. Regarding you're 219, surely the opposite is true also? Just because they agree with you doesn't make them town, even more reason which you've provided yourself as to how nonsense your early town cred giving to Val89 was.

you also pivoted ur vote from val to me. and this would have implied that you thought i was scummier. but still are bringing up the narrative that i could be scum wit val? so why pivot in the first place if there was a liable chance that i was scum wit val?

I thought you were scummier. Would you not vote somebody you thought was scummier than someone else?

All being said though I do find your 1-6 point argument really compelling.

In terms of T3's post regarding the "circumstances" of the read on Cook, 6 minutes before claiming Cook was town, T3 said he was going to reread Cook's ISO. So, I'd presume he found something in there to change his mind...? But the ISO does nothing for me, especially with Cook's wagon hopping action.

[alstroemerial]

^ Actually I'll tell you how I feel regarding Cook regardless of what T3 may or may not explain, even though I dislike how little input we get from Cook I don't think Cook is scum, there isn't a world Cook kills Zyla, I don't think.

Who do you think is a likely scum partner for T3 if not Cook? Do you think GrandpaMo and T3 is a possible team?

What's everyone's read on Cook?

I've been SL or SR-ing Cook for almost the whole game and Cook hasn't done anything to make me change my mind.

^ This does indeed mean I think Val89 is actually the most town currently.

Did Val do something particularly towny that made you change your mind, or is Val towny more by PoE based on the association reads? Just comparing to back here

252
If I had to say at gun point, probably Val89 or TF3, considering the really unnatural pocketing you did, it also doesn't have to be for reasons of: "let me pocket you so we can hammer James". It could just be used for later on. Regarding you're 219, surely the opposite is true also? Just because they agree with you doesn't make them town, even more reason which you've provided yourself as to how nonsense your early town cred giving to Val89 was.

you also pivoted ur vote from val to me. and this would have implied that you thought i was scummier. but still are bringing up the narrative that i could be scum wit val? so why pivot in the first place if there was a liable chance that i was scum wit val?

I thought you were scummier. Would you not vote somebody you thought was scummier than someone else?

All being said though I do find your 1-6 point argument really compelling.

In terms of T3's post regarding the "circumstances" of the read on Cook, 6 minutes before claiming Cook was town, T3 said he was going to reread Cook's ISO. So, I'd presume he found something in there to change his mind...? But the ISO does nothing for me, especially with Cook's wagon hopping action.

[alstroemerial]

Not again with the double post sorry >.<

[alstroemerial]

Regarding Val, I do think in my early Day 1 targetting of him may have actually been spurred on by stubbornness more than a concrete point. I think in terms of intent his is the simplest, "all cards on the table" type of scum hunting. For you alstro, I think just because you have more experience the way you scum hunt seems a bit less so? I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense. For NorweiganboyEE, I do think he is scum hunting, but of course with a less of an "all cards on the table" vibe.

If I'm understanding correctly, I'm flattered I guess but this is only my second game. I made the account a while ago but I haven't played in, like, 5 years!

[alstroemerial]

Also, I didn't get a hug but I understand... little turtle legs aren't conducive to embraces /joke

[alstroemerial]

I do agree that FN is a weird thing to crumb and but I'm inclined to believe Cook precisely because it's such a weird thing to fake claim, especially not at H-1. Like, if no one comes and confirms that they got hugged by Cook, then Cook is going to say they're lock scum, and then if they aren't scum it would come to light pretty fast.

I suggest for now we give it a period of time, let everyone alive get in the thread and see if anyone says they got the FN thing, and then cross the bridge depending on what happens.

[alstroemerial]

In retrospect, I now see the crumbs and feel like a fool.

its very highly probable because scum is univerally controlling the game and how we are thinking, they are also possibly UST such as maybe alstro?

what's UST?

Anyway, the way I see it, with the pool as NEE, Grandpa, James, T3, and Val... I have been TR-ing Val pretty much from the get-go and have come around on James. I'm also reasonably confident that Grandpa flips red so it's down to NEE or T3 in my eyes. But considering NEE brought Grandpa to H-1 yesterday and kept the vote on for a few hundred posts, I think it's less likely. T3 had a vote on Grandpa for awhile too but not at as crucial of a point. I also agree that there was no

need

per se to get the FN claim out of Cook this early (though it ended up being helpful, and with the momentum of the day it's possible Cook would've gotten to H-1). T3 has also been TR-ing Grandpa fairly consistently. Either way, if we are right about Grandpa then that gives us a miselim to figure it out, right?

I want to check some T3 past games just to check meta but that's where my head is at.

[alstroemerial]

Well now that we're in elo things are getting pretty tight. I mean, from my perspective it's 2/3 within {James, T3, NEE}. If there's no counterclaim then it would have to be {James, NEE} which would make sense, since NEE was a little protective of James and helpful in resolving the James v Mo conflict D1 in favor of James and against GrandpaMo. I'll say right now that I'm not cc-ing but wait a bit to see if anyone else is before putting a vote down and following T3.

[alstroemerial]

Cook, you're saying you were roleblocked last night, presumably by James?

If Cook says yes, intent to hammer?

From town's perspective last scum is me or NEE and James's block will get that sorted out based on the night outcome, I'm presuming that's what James means in 1165?

[alstroemerial]

It was well played!

[alstroemerial]

ebwop: I mean on your ends of course in case that wasn't clear

[alstroemerial]

Alrighty.... I guess there's no huge need to prolong this. VOTE: T3

[alstroemerial]

I definitely learned a lot... like about crumb-ing and more strategic note-taking, but the game definitely felt like a mess for town until the last minute

[alstroemerial]

From my perspective I didn't know anything about either PR for awhile and it just seemed like we couldn't hit a maf and my reads were just bleh