Newbie 2069: Summertime [game over!]

[Bimblesticks]

VOTE: Bakslash

What's going on party people?

[Bimblesticks]

I am wondering how Illwei didn’t seem to know what a scum day is.

But that doesn't say anything about alignment unless you think that not knowing that is AI in some way??

I think you're looking into this too much, Strange. I mean it took me a second to figure out what a scumday is, and it was

my

scumday. This is a Newbie game after all, so the way you read it is a bit odd, especially considering you walked it back by saying it wasn't a serious post? What does that mean? Either way, I don't think not knowing what a scumday is is a staple of scum lol.

VOTE: Bimblesticks
Don’t want him feeling left out. Whaddup again Noraa?

Awww thanks <3

Not sure what to think of Bakslash avoiding participating in RVS.

I think scum would want to blend in and throw a random vote out though

.

This was the first post that I had an issue with. It looks pretty simple upon first seeing it but I keep getting ominous feelings from it. I worry because it feels like it has ulterior motives to it. Calling out Bakslash is so random and specific given at this point in time there were multiple players who hadn't even posted. What makes you think bakslash is specifically avoiding? The part that worries me the most is the bolded part. I keep getting ominous feelings because it feels very .... idk tricky and slippery. Like I feel like its very simple and straightforward but it's also kind of saying "look I didn't just throw a random vote out to blend in. I must be town" and that level of the simplest manipulation really just makes me think noob scum.
I'm biased because noob scum me was 100% like that but I understand not all newbies are like me. But I just keep getting ominous feelings about this post. Idk this is one of my biggest issues with you atm. Lets talk this out please.

I think there's just a misunderstanding here. For one, I did vote randomly. The Bulge isn't my actual hero solve lol. And second, I commented on Bakslash because he only made one post then dipped without voting. It made him stick out for me, and it clearly was the same for Bulge since he also brought that post up.
Also, you're not the first person to try to make a case against me by saying "well that's what I would do", but every time someone's tried that we've always both been town.

Noraa, I feel like that scumread on Roden's post about Bakslash is a real stretch. Like I think wondering why somebody chose not to participate in RVs is a valid concern. The bold part just struck me as a common sense thing, like yeah I don't think scum would want to avoid RVs, as it would put a spotlight on them. I don't see anything tricky or slippery about it.

Actually I wanna drop them in thread before I sleep so ik where I ended the day today.
I have concerns on Italiano and bulge which worries me bc they are both SEs which makes me think im just paranoiaing myself for no good reason.
I have issues with Italiano the most and that worries me A LOT bc I almost always TR him...

Idk about Bulge but Italiano is giving me weird vibes too. Every single post just has questions that probably have predictable and boring answers. Like he's trying to look busy without really doing much.

Yep, I was thinking the same thing. A bunch of questions but no explanation of his conclusions. Questions are useful for getting more evidence, I'll give him that, but I feel like it would make more sense if he also explained his suspicions while asking them.

Rather than constantly discrediting me, I'd appreciate if you just answered my questions. Because if you are town here, you are making me SR you far more than you would if you just answered questions instead of being super defensive. I haven't even told you why I SR you. Relax and answer my questions. I have yet to give a solid read. Currently I only have suspicions but they mean nothing if I end up thinking you are town. If you are town, you have nothing to worry about.

Your attempts at intimidating me aren't gonna work, sorry. Your question has zero calories and adds nothing to the game. Telling me to relax when you're the one getting riled up is some interesting projection though.

Man are you defensive. Oh well I'll still try to work with you if I believe you are town. We'll see

I think this is a two-way street, from Roden's perspective you were being pretty aggressive with not a lot of evidence, and aggression isn't condusive to actually getting somebody to explain themselves. However, I agree Roden was being a bit too defensive here, like the idea this was intimidation is a bit of a stretch, and your questions don't "add nothing to the game".

[Bimblesticks]

Where is everyone right now, I get that discussion is a bit harder with a person VLA, and one has to be replaced, but 6 other people aren't even talking at all. That kind of seems like a waste of a day to have no discussion whatsoever. So can those 6 people explain why they're not talking right now?

I don't think this is particularly suspicious - I've been following along fine I just wanted more time to think about my reads to make sure I actually had something useful to say.

My takes as of right now:

Roden is reading highly scum to me, he's being waaaaaaay too defensive at this point. Noraa is being pretty clear to give him credit, saying it's possible this is a tvt scenario and she's unsure, and Roden just responds by getting angrier and saying he's considering a different game. In my experience, when they see questioning they perceive as illogical, town tends to try and respond calmly while scum gets really indignant and defensive. I think it has something to do with scum being afraid of being eliminated for what they would consider "the wrong reasons".

I don't trust Italiano. Not only are their short and half-pointless questions weird, but everything they say reads to me in this tone of them being pissed off. But then again, tone is hard to tell over the internet.

I'm ever so slightly suspicious of Noraa, as I felt they went a little too far to justify them wanting the opinion of The Bulge, but I'm not particularly confident in that read.

I'm reading Illwei and The Bulge as town so far, both of them seem pretty reasonable, The Bulge moreso.

[Bimblesticks]

Right now the person I'm the least certain on anything right now is Bimblesticks. Really want them to participate in the conversations more to read anything conclusive on them.

OK sure! I'm going to try not to get prodded for a third time this game, it's just that every time I log on to read I see a lot of stuff I don't really have strong feelings on.

also grampamo, stop quoting long posts and saying a sentence about it if you are town! that's a scum tactic to waste space.

I agree with this sentiment - reading through this thread took twice as long bc of the amount of stuff I had to read from GrandpaMo, most of which I don't think was really necessary.

Right now the person I'm the least certain on anything right now is Bimblesticks. Really want them to participate in the conversations more to read anything conclusive on them.

VOTE: Bimblesticks

I think that's a bit quick to throw a vote on me there. I'll go ahead and return the favour.
UNVOTE: Bakslash
VOTE: Illwei


Not going to quote any posts to support this as there are so many but I don't buy that Noraa vs Roden is tvt. I understand people can get heated, especially when they perceive the other person as being not just agressive but unreasonable, but I think Roden acted really strangely here. They were extremely defensive, and voted against The Bulge despite seemingly everyone else in this thread either reading him as neutral or town (I personally read him as strongly town). I recognise the argument that scum wouldn't act like that for fear of being perceived as too different, but I also feel like a townie wouldn't act so strongly in response what feels to me like, if I'm being honest, perfectly standard questioning, out of fear it could make their SRs seem less valid. I think it just creates a lot of badwill.

Both scum are in this pool and im close to 100% sure of it
{Illwei, piisirrational/Bakslash, Roden, Bimblesticks, ItalianoVD}

if any of them start pushing outside of the pool, that's gonna look bad because im certain that Strangematter, Grandpa Mo, and Bulge are town. I think it's pretty obvious that I am town but if anyone wants to challenge that, go ahead.

I'm confused about a lot of this. StrangeMatter's message seemed to strike a chord with you, and you thought "The mix of emotion and trying to restrain themself, IS HIGHLY TOWN INDICATIVE". I don't really see that? I mean obviously you have more experience at this but Strange's pushing on Illwei over scumday did seem really weird to me and their follow-ups, although they didn't make me any more suspicious, also didn't make me inclined to trust them in any way? They just seem like standard messages to me.

I agree Bulge is likely town. I don't feel strongly either way about GrandpaMo, if anything I lean slightly towards them being scum, if only because most of their posts this game don't seem like they contributed much to the conversation.

IN response to your 5 potential scum: Even though I did vote for Illwei, it was mainly because he voted for me. I honestly don't know if I think he's scum, he still reads to me as town, and from his perspective his vote might've just been intentioned to see if it annoyed me and made me say anything suspicious, as opposed to wanting to actually see me hanged. I actually still read Illwei as town. I don't have any strong feelings on piisirrational either way, aside from them not RVing at first which I think is pretty minor. But, I found Italiano's behaviour weird, and nothing swayed me in Cabd's initial posts, so I'm inclined to be most suspicious of them right now.

[Bimblesticks]

Okay, tomorrow, sorry noraa.

I just neosporined up my arms, belly, and palms, Kittens did NOT want to stay still and felt the need to inform me dangerously.

that's fine. I have exams soon so I'll be back in 3 days. make sure bulge doesn't die today. if he does, I will be very very angry bc he is town town town.

Bulge isn't going to get voted here. Not only do I doubt he'll get elim'd over me, I would literally tell everyone to just vote me first if he somehow gained traction. The two of you caused so much rep damage that I can't ever be taken to a elim-or-lose situation. You especially will tunnel me and throw the game if I ever live that long.

This is the biggest reason I'm so frustrated. My place in the game got ruined on page 2, I can't even replace out because you'll overthink it and unfairly tunnel my replacement as well. You can't even say this is untrue because you are, beyond all odds and reason, still in fact tunneling me. All I can do at this point is expose scum in hindsight, because you're just not going to believe me until you see my flip.

This was posted while I was still writing my previous post, so I didn't get a chance to respond to it in that. I don't have much to contribute that hasn't already been said, but I will say that everything you've said since your "place in the game got ruined" has read to me as bitter and vitriolic, like you think the behaviour of Bulge and Noraa is outrageous. I think it's perfectly reasonable to want to ask questions of you, and the reason they persisted in questioning you specifically, which you interpret as tunnel visioning, was because your responses, again, seemed bitter and vitriolic. I haven't completely ruled out the idea you're town, and others in this thread have said this could be a tvt scenario, so I don't think that you've been caused so much rep damage that it's irreparable or you can't ever be taken to an elim-or-lose situation. I recognise that the absolute worst thing to ever say to a person that you think is overreacting is "I think you're overreacting", but uh... I think you're overreacting, and have been for (irl) days now.

[Bimblesticks]

Right now the person I'm the least certain on anything right now is Bimblesticks. Really want them to participate in the conversations more to read anything conclusive on them.

VOTE: Bimblesticks

I think that's a bit quick to throw a vote on me there. I'll go ahead and return the favour.
UNVOTE: Bakslash
VOTE: Illwei

Even though I did vote for Illwei, it was mainly because he voted for me. I honestly don't know if I think he's scum, he still reads to me as town, and from his perspective his vote might've just been intentioned to see if it annoyed me and made me say anything suspicious, as opposed to wanting to actually see me hanged. I actually still read Illwei as town. I don't have any strong feelings on piisirrational either way, aside from them not RVing at first which I think is pretty minor. But, I found Italiano's behaviour weird, and nothing swayed me in Cabd's initial posts, so I'm inclined to be most suspicious of them right now.

This reads more like an OMGUS vote. Town doesn't vote other people because they are voting for them, unless it's because the other people voted them due to a horrifically bad reason or whatever. The fact that you think he's town and you're voting for him? This progression doesn't make any sense, and reads as scum trying to keep their options open by voting someone and saying they think they're actually town.

I can understand why you think this. My rationale for voting for Illwei was because I wanted to prod him to further explain why he voted for me, however, I believe his vote against me could potentially just be to provoke me and his previous messages lead me to read him as leaning town. I probably could've phrased it better in my original post.

[Bimblesticks]

Welp I fucked up the formatting badly on those quotes, just pretend they're correct rip

[Bimblesticks]

I'm leaning town on Noraa/Ydresse. Noraa seemed reasonable in everything she said, and Ydresse hasn't commented much so I don't read her either way.

I'm leaning scum on Cabd. Italiano was talked weirdly, but more importantly, I don't feel like Cabd has contributed anything to the conversation so far. I'm leaning town on GrandpaMo, he seems rational and like he's genuinely trying to figure stuff out.

I think piisirrational seems like town. I don't feel that confident in that, but they seem to genuinely ask questions.

My question to you is, why DON'T you care about the votes on you? As town, you want to get enough information as possible, so if you are getting voted by people who may possibly be scum, you would want to address why they're voting you so you could possibly sort out the alignments of your votes

Gotta be completely honest I don't follow this one bit tbh.

I think it might be the fact that I can't comprehend the statement "enough information as possible" tbh. Because. that...just...doesn't...
well.

They say why they're voting on me tbh, so why would me engaging in that matter at all? If I feel the need to defend then I will but to be frank, I don't have the energy right now, and I don't see how defending myself would help me sort them.

The fact you don't understand this makes no sense to me. As a townie, you want to gather as much information as you can, because the more information you have, the easier it is to make reads. If three people have voted you, you should be reacting and figuring out why, so you can determine whether they're doing it out of genuine concern or malicious intent. Instead you sound so lax, which I find really strange. "If I feel the need to defend then I will" I mean ideally you would want to respond to every read against you, no? If I was the most voted person right now I would be pretty clear to respond to everything people have said about me. Was planning on retracting my vote against you if you elaborated a little on why you voted for me, but you don't seem to want to elaborate on anything at the moment, so my vote stays.

oh, i wasn't asking for a response to anything particular, i just wanted some thoughts that weren't explicitly *at* someone i guess, but your read on things currently

I don't think Italiano/Cabd is town. I already mentioned it earlier but they have a lot of posts yet no real content. Italiano specifically kept teasing that he had a plan and a read list, but he never actually posted it.

Bimble vs Illwei is an interesting situation. Illwei has made a couple naked votes now and I don't think it's alignment indicative. I voted for them earlier, but I think they're at least trying to play the game, at least compared to Bimble who has an abysmally low post count as well as inconsistent sorting. He somehow managed to contradict himself within seven posts, or is at the very least way too wishy washy for someone with low content. I think Bimble is the more likely scum between the two and his "OMGUS" vote on Illwei indicates that to me.

GrandpaMo is town for actually trying to scum hunt and ask questions. Seems to generally just be excited to play the game, which isn't alignment indicative but makes me town lean them for that as well.

I've already given my case on Bulge.

Strange is null for me, but they haven't done anything particularly scummy. I need to reread their ISO but they're not pinging me enough to demand an immediate closer look.

Bakslash/piisirrational don't have enough posts but I think Bakslash town slipped by avoiding RVS.

And I have you town locked because of Nora.

"He somehow managed to contradict himself within seven posts" Could you elaborate? I think I've been completely consistent. Also, the reason behind my "abysmally low post count" is a) few people have pinged me or attacked me directly, b) I tend to write longer posts where I respond to everything I want to and c) I've already laid out my takes on everybody.

[Bimblesticks]

what lol

ok then... let me ask u what makes bimble scum?

and do u have any townreds?

also what do you feel about roden?

and what do u feel about the scumreads on you? including mine

mmm sure

My vote was a statement

There's paranoia but pretty much just nora rn.
overall like bulge but there were a couple things that I didn't tbh. flip that for roden though I guess.

He's felt a bit agressive in the beginning but idk how to read people who are new but not really because they study or something

apathy

At this point I'm beginning to wonder if you're trolling to try and get a reaction. "My vote was a statement." A statement on what? "apathy" How do you feel apathetic about three people reading you as evil?

[Bimblesticks]

oh, i wasn't asking for a response to anything particular, i just wanted some thoughts that weren't explicitly *at* someone i guess, but your read on things currently

I don't think Italiano/Cabd is town. I already mentioned it earlier but they have a lot of posts yet no real content. Italiano specifically kept teasing that he had a plan and a read list, but he never actually posted it.

Bimble vs Illwei is an interesting situation. Illwei has made a couple naked votes now and I don't think it's alignment indicative. I voted for them earlier, but I think they're at least trying to play the game, at least compared to Bimble who has an abysmally low post count as well as inconsistent sorting. He somehow managed to contradict himself within seven posts, or is at the very least way too wishy washy for someone with low content. I think Bimble is the more likely scum between the two and his "OMGUS" vote on Illwei indicates that to me.

GrandpaMo is town for actually trying to scum hunt and ask questions. Seems to generally just be excited to play the game, which isn't alignment indicative but makes me town lean them for that as well.

I've already given my case on Bulge.

Strange is null for me, but they haven't done anything particularly scummy. I need to reread their ISO but they're not pinging me enough to demand an immediate closer look.

Bakslash/piisirrational don't have enough posts but I think Bakslash town slipped by avoiding RVS.

And I have you town locked because of Nora.

"He somehow managed to contradict himself within seven posts" Could you elaborate? I think I've been completely consistent. Also, the reason behind my "abysmally low post count" is a) few people have pinged me or attacked me directly, b) I tend to write longer posts where I respond to everything I want to and c) I've already laid out my takes on everybody.

Your reads on people seem to change from post to post. Wishy washy is probably the better descriptor but I also thought your vote on Illwei made no sense. It wasn't even really OMGUS, you just kinda, voted. No scum read, no analysis, not even any real pressure.

I think your low post count has more to it than your given reasons. I don't really see you questioning anyone or pressuring your scum reads. All your posts do is state your mindset and keep your options open on who to vote for. There's no real scum hunting going on and you don't have any game reason not to do so.

Can you tell me why you seem so reluctant to pressure Illwei?

Let's dive into this:

"Your reads on people seem to change from post to post" Are reads not supposed to change as new information comes in? Like I don't understand this point. My read has changed on Illwei pretty hard, but for justifiable reasons (he's acting bizarrely apathetic). I initally read Noraa as slight scum lean bc she was a little agressive pushing you initially and she seemed to be a tad too defensive in justifying why she wanted the opinion of The Bulge. Her posts since, especially concerning you, have seemed sincere and reasonable, so I shifted to a town lean. For GrandpaMo I just made a point about how he posted a lot which made this thread harder to read, but I never said that makes him scum. From what he's been saying, I think he's town, so I don't think that counts as a shift in position. I'm pretty sure I've been consistent on literally everyone else? So how am I "Wishy washy"? Care to elaborate?

"All your posts do is state your mindset and keep your options open on who to vote for" I mean I'm pretty confident in pushing Illwei to elaborate right now, I think the way they're acting is hella strange. I also think you were acting defensive and bitter, so I said I was leaning scum for you and I still am. I said I was leaning very much town on the Bulge and I still am. I don't think not having strong opinions on everybody or even most people is a justifiable criticism, especially on d1. Like you call it "leaving your options open", I call it "not wanting to rush to conclusions and giving people time to defend themselves".

"I think your low post count has more to it than your given reasons. I don't really see you questioning anyone or pressuring your scum reads." I've questioned both you and Illwei multiple times. Like, I don't understand how to respond other than to say that's flatly untrue.

"There's no real scum hunting going on and you don't have any game reason not to do so." I'll give you an example of a scum hunt. I think you're being completely unreasonable and am moving you from a scum lean to a scum read. I don't buy you're town, I understand the concept of too scum to be scum, but I just don't think any townie could possibly write a post with as many false statements as this one.

[Bimblesticks]

Right now I think there's scum out of Illwei, Cabd and Roden.

[Bimblesticks]

oh, i wasn't asking for a response to anything particular, i just wanted some thoughts that weren't explicitly *at* someone i guess, but your read on things currently

I don't think Italiano/Cabd is town. I already mentioned it earlier but they have a lot of posts yet no real content. Italiano specifically kept teasing that he had a plan and a read list, but he never actually posted it.

Bimble vs Illwei is an interesting situation. Illwei has made a couple naked votes now and I don't think it's alignment indicative. I voted for them earlier, but I think they're at least trying to play the game, at least compared to Bimble who has an abysmally low post count as well as inconsistent sorting. He somehow managed to contradict himself within seven posts, or is at the very least way too wishy washy for someone with low content. I think Bimble is the more likely scum between the two and his "OMGUS" vote on Illwei indicates that to me.

GrandpaMo is town for actually trying to scum hunt and ask questions. Seems to generally just be excited to play the game, which isn't alignment indicative but makes me town lean them for that as well.

I've already given my case on Bulge.

Strange is null for me, but they haven't done anything particularly scummy. I need to reread their ISO but they're not pinging me enough to demand an immediate closer look.

Bakslash/piisirrational don't have enough posts but I think Bakslash town slipped by avoiding RVS.

And I have you town locked because of Nora.

"He somehow managed to contradict himself within seven posts" Could you elaborate? I think I've been completely consistent. Also, the reason behind my "abysmally low post count" is a) few people have pinged me or attacked me directly, b) I tend to write longer posts where I respond to everything I want to and c) I've already laid out my takes on everybody.

Your reads on people seem to change from post to post. Wishy washy is probably the better descriptor but I also thought your vote on Illwei made no sense. It wasn't even really OMGUS, you just kinda, voted. No scum read, no analysis, not even any real pressure.

I think your low post count has more to it than your given reasons. I don't really see you questioning anyone or pressuring your scum reads. All your posts do is state your mindset and keep your options open on who to vote for. There's no real scum hunting going on and you don't have any game reason not to do so.

Can you tell me why you seem so reluctant to pressure Illwei?

Let's dive into this:

"Your reads on people seem to change from post to post" Are reads not supposed to change as new information comes in? Like I don't understand this point. My read has changed on Illwei pretty hard, but for justifiable reasons (he's acting bizarrely apathetic). I initally read Noraa as slight scum lean bc she was a little agressive pushing you initially and she seemed to be a tad too defensive in justifying why she wanted the opinion of The Bulge. Her posts since, especially concerning you, have seemed sincere and reasonable, so I shifted to a town lean. For GrandpaMo I just made a point about how he posted a lot which made this thread harder to read, but I never said that makes him scum. From what he's been saying, I think he's town, so I don't think that counts as a shift in position. I'm pretty sure I've been consistent on literally everyone else? So how am I "Wishy washy"? Care to elaborate?

Reads should naturally change, yes, but yours seem to just be following general consensus. Like you're reading the room and then changing your reads accordingly, rather than having any real conviction with what you're saying. It wouldn't be so noticeable if you were more active, but when you only have seven posts (at the time) and you've changed your read on Nora three times, it looks off. You went from believing me vs Nora was TvT to ambiguous TvS. You believed Nora was town, then thought she was scummy, then back to town, just as the game state had already dictated. You believed I was town, then potentially scum, to now "too scummy", just as the game state already dictated again. These are not original thoughts.

Your read on Illwei meanwhile just feels half-hearted and ambiguous. You're claiming your read on Illwei shifted hard, but by your own words, this isn't true.

I think that's a bit quick to throw a vote on me there. I'll go ahead and return the favour.

UNVOTE: Bakslash

VOTE: Illwei

...

Even though I did vote for Illwei, it was mainly because he voted for me. I honestly don't know if I think he's scum, he still reads to me as town, and from his perspective his vote might've just been intentioned to see if it annoyed me and made me say anything suspicious, as opposed to wanting to actually see me hanged. I actually still read Illwei as town.

So what exactly is happening here? Illwei hasn't acted any differently. You apparently now scum read them though according to your most recent post, but there isn't any kind of progression to this conclusion. It just looks like every other one of your reads where you're just taking general consensus into account.

"All your posts do is state your mindset and keep your options open on who to vote for" I mean I'm pretty confident in pushing Illwei to elaborate right now, I think the way they're acting is hella strange. I also think you were acting defensive and bitter, so I said I was leaning scum for you and I still am. I said I was leaning very much town on the Bulge and I still am. I don't think not having strong opinions on everybody or even most people is a justifiable criticism, especially on d1. Like you call it "leaving your options open", I call it "not wanting to rush to conclusions and giving people time to defend themselves".

I don't think it's unreasonable to have more than three solid reads after 16 pages worth of posts to dissect. Your current scum reads are just parroting what everyone else has said.

Also not sure how you can say I'm "bitter and defensive" with a straight face when you yourself got so incredibly defensive and bitter in your post here. Ad hominem is usually a scum tell though so I'm not surprised.

"I think your low post count has more to it than your given reasons. I don't really see you questioning anyone or pressuring your scum reads." I've questioned both you and Illwei multiple times. Like, I don't understand how to respond other than to say that's flatly untrue.

Can you show me where? I keep scanning your ISO and I'm not seeing anything resembling questions or pressure. You even admitted you didn't do any of this in your previously stated reasons so I'm not sure why you've decided to immediately contradict yourself.

"There's no real scum hunting going on and you don't have any game reason not to do so." I'll give you an example of a scum hunt. I think you're being completely unreasonable and am moving you from a scum lean to a scum read. I don't buy you're town, I understand the concept of too scum to be scum, but I just don't think any townie could possibly write a post with as many false statements as this one.

This isn't scum hunting lol. This is OMGUS without the vote. How am I being unreasonable? All I did was ask some questions and make some observations. Can you point out any specific false statements I've made about you? Can you show me an example of you scum hunting anyone at all?

OK, let's dive into this long screed of nonsense:

My first read on Nora was "I'm ever so slightly suspicious of Nora", in post 195. My next take on her was in post 369, where I said "I'm leaning town on Nora/Ydresse". That's changing that read once: from SL to TL. Not three times. You lied.

My take on You v Noraa was saying "I don't buy Noraa vs Roden is tvt" in Post 323, specifically referring to you as the scum. At no point before then did I ever say I bought that Noraa vs you was tvt. Again, you lied.

I don't understand how my reads on Illwei are

"ambiguous and halfhearted"

. I voted against Illwei because I wanted to prod him to explain why he voted for me with so little evidence. He then didn't explain that, or respond to any of the other questions I asked of him. I find that really suspicious, I feel like any townie would want to respond to questioning.

"You're claiming your read on Illwei shifted hard, but by your own words, this isn't true."

Could you like, show me where my own words disproved me? Instead of just saying that?

"So what exactly is happening here? Illwei hasn't acted any differently. You apparently now scum read them though according to your most recent post, but there isn't any kind of progression to this conclusion. It just looks like every other one of your reads where you're just taking general consensus into account."

How can you say he hasn't acted differently? Are we in the same game? He's spent the past hundred or so posts refusing to answer questions and reacting to everything with apathy. My scum read against him is based on the fact he still hasn't explained his vote against me.

"I don't think it's unreasonable to have more than three solid reads after 16 pages worth of posts to dissect. Your current scum reads are just parroting what everyone else has said."

Have you considered the possibility that if things are general consensus it's probably for good reason? Like I don't understand, would you trust me more if I was claiming The Bulge and GrandpaMo and Noraa are all scum?? Also, to be completely honest, most people seem to be reading you as just an aggravated townie, I think I'm in the minority in reading you as scum, so if you're looking for a deviation from the general consensus, there ya go.

"Ad hominem is usually a scum tell though so I'm not surprised."

What is it with people on the internet and not knowing what an ad hominem is. Ad hominem is a position against a person based on anything other than the susbstance of the argument itself. In real political or logical debate, ad hominems are generally a bad thing. In mafia, people do them constantly, because taking people's behaviour into account, as opposed to the logic behind their arguments, is very much important to determining if somebody is scum.

"Can you show me where? I keep scanning your ISO and I'm not seeing anything resembling questions or pressure. You even admitted you didn't do any of this in your previously stated reasons so I'm not sure why you've decided to immediately contradict yourself."

Again, with the idea that my own words contradict me without providing the words that contradict me. But sure, I'll answer your question. I don't believe a statement needs a question mark in order to be considered a question, I think it just has to warrant a response. For example, if I said "Roden, why are you being unreasonable?", it would prompt the same response as "Roden, I think you're being unreasonable". Post 324 is a perfect example of this. It's not framed as questioning, but that's what it is, as you respond to it and substantiate your argument. To give specific examples:

a) In Post 325 I voted against Illwei to try and get him to substantiate his vote against me. Then, in Post 369, I questioned him on what he said in Post 363, and pointed out he still hasn't explained why he voted for me, which I initially asked in Post 325. He responded to GrandpaMo's questioning in Post 370, and I found his response ridiculous so I questioned him again on it. He has not responded.

b) In Post 324 I pointed out why I think you're being unreasonable, invoking a response. You responded. Then in Post 369, I asked you to elaborate on your seemingly nonsense statements about me being contradictory. You responded in a long post, full of innacuracies. I responded in a long post, asking you a bunch more questions. You responded, now I'm responding again, asking you more questions.

I think this easily constitutes "questioning or pressuring my scum reads". In what way does it not? I think I've taken time to resopnd to and ask plenty of you and Illwei.

I've just wasted half an hour of my life responding to your lies. I'm becoming sympathetic to Noraa's position of just voting you out regardless of your alignment, you're too annoying to work with and I find it frustrating responding to an argument against me that's just based on nonsense.

[Bimblesticks]

tbh it is sad that people never respond immediately it makes me sad sometimes but

basically this will be my almost 50th game of forum mafia tbh, albeit in not a long day format here, and not all of them super serious tbh.

If you prefer it when people respond immediately, could you please explain why you voted for me, which I've been trying to get you to do for about 100 posts now? Could you please also respond to what I asked in Posts 369 and 372?

[Bimblesticks]

OK, let's dive into this long screed of nonsense:

My first read on Nora was "I'm ever so slightly suspicious of Nora", in post 195. My next take on her was in post 369, where I said "I'm leaning town on Nora/Ydresse". That's changing that read once: from SL to TL. Not three times. You lied.

Not according to post 83, where you specifically give a stance against Nora's reasoning and claim she was too aggressive without a lot of evidence. You also claim that our argument was a "two-way street", implying that you believed our argument was just a misunderstanding. This makes no sense to say if you think either of us are scum.

My take on You v Noraa was saying "I don't buy Noraa vs Roden is tvt" in Post 323, specifically referring to you as the scum. At no point before then did I ever say I bought that Noraa vs you was tvt. Again, you lied.

Refer to the above.

I don't understand how my reads on Illwei are

"ambiguous and halfhearted"

. I voted against Illwei because I wanted to prod him to explain why he voted for me with so little evidence. He then didn't explain that, or respond to any of the other questions I asked of him. I find that really suspicious, I feel like any townie would want to respond to questioning.

"You're claiming your read on Illwei shifted hard, but by your own words, this isn't true."

Could you like, show me where my own words disproved me? Instead of just saying that?

You specifically say in two different posts that you town read them, I quoted one of them so idk how you're confused here. 323 and 327 show this. Can you show me a post before 365 where you claim otherwise? Because you scum reading Illwei now literally doesn't matter if you think that counts, as that now seems to be in reaction to me pointing it out in 365 that you were wishy washy with your reads at the time.

How can you say he hasn't acted differently? Are we in the same game? He's spent the past hundred or so posts refusing to answer questions and reacting to everything with apathy. My scum read against him is based on the fact he still hasn't explained his vote against me.

Hundred or so posts? They've only got 34. This behavior has been pretty consistent with their past posts anyway, can you show me a massive change somewhere?

Have you considered the possibility that if things are general consensus it's probably for good reason? Like I don't understand, would you trust me more if I was claiming The Bulge and GrandpaMo and Noraa are all scum?? Also, to be completely honest, most people seem to be reading you as just an aggravated townie, I think I'm in the minority in reading you as scum, so if you're looking for a deviation from the general consensus, there ya go.

You're missing the point. You're the last to read but the first to want to take credit. The problem isn't that your reads align with general consensus, but that they only ever come out

after

everyone else has said their piece. The most blatant example of this is that you voted for someone you thought was town (Illwei), and didn't actually scum read them until other people began to do so. This is quite literally what chronologically happened.

What is it with people on the internet and not knowing what an ad hominem is. Ad hominem is a position against a person based on anything other than the susbstance of the argument itself. In real political or logical debate, ad hominems are generally a bad thing. In mafia, people do them constantly, because taking people's behaviour into account, as opposed to the logic behind their arguments, is very much important to determining if somebody is scum.

This is just flat out wrong. Ad hominem is an argument or reaction directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining. Such as your random insults and attacks against my character.

Again, with the idea that my own words contradict me without providing the words that contradict me. But sure, I'll answer your question. I don't believe a statement needs a question mark in order to be considered a question, I think it just has to warrant a response. For example, if I said "Roden, why are you being unreasonable?", it would prompt the same response as "Roden, I think you're being unreasonable". Post 324 is a perfect example of this. It's not framed as questioning, but that's what it is, as you respond to it and substantiate your argument.

Questions don't need to be actual questions now huh.

To give specific examples:

a) In Post 325 I voted against Illwei to try and get him to substantiate his vote against me. Then, in Post 369, I questioned him on what he said in Post 363, and pointed out he still hasn't explained why he voted for me, which I initially asked in Post 325. He responded to GrandpaMo's questioning in Post 370, and I found his response ridiculous so I questioned him again on it. He has not responded.

Yes, and you town read them for this.

b) In Post 324 I pointed out why I think you're being unreasonable, invoking a response. You responded. Then in Post 369, I asked you to elaborate on your seemingly nonsense statements about me being contradictory. You responded in a long post, full of innacuracies. I responded in a long post, asking you a bunch more questions. You responded, now I'm responding again, asking you more questions.

I think this easily constitutes "questioning or pressuring my scum reads". In what way does it not? I think I've taken time to resopnd to and ask plenty of you and Illwei.

I literally had to push you to do any of this. Again, it doesn't count if you only do it

after

I point it out.

I've just wasted half an hour of my life responding to your lies. I'm becoming sympathetic to Noraa's position of just voting you out regardless of your alignment, you're too annoying to work with and I find it frustrating responding to an argument against me that's just based on nonsense.

If you're legitimately scum hunting, wouldn't this be exactly what you wanted? Why are you annoyed by having to play the game?

OK, another long-ass post, let's go:

I at no point said I thought Noraa was scum or was leaning scum. I thought her reasonsing was slightly a stretch, and that she was slightly agressive at the start of her questioning of you, but that doesn't mean she's scum, a well-meaning townie could just as easily question aggressively or read too much into something. I comment on things people do sometimes, even if I'm leaning neutral on them. If you interpret that as me thinking they're scum without me ever saying that's the case, that's on you.

A "two-way street" was just referring to how she was slightly agressive. That's not a comment on the alignment of either people in the argument. I'm considering if you're just misunderstanding here, but I think given the context (saying it's a "two-way street", putting in a comma, and then saying Noraa was a bit agressive, implying the two statements are connected), it's pretty clear it wasn't a statement on whether your argument was tvt but whether your Noraa did anything to provoke you.

I think you just don't understand what I'm saying on Illwei - I initially read him as slightly town, something I've never denied. However, as he hasn't explained his vote on me and doesn't seem to care about the votes on him, I shifted to a scum read. I was responding to the idea that my read on him is ambiguous or halfhearted, which I don't think it is.

By "hundred or so posts" I meant posts in this thread as a whole, not specifically his posts.

"This behavior has been pretty consistent with their past posts anyway, can you show me a massive change somewhere?"

The change occured when he voted for me and didn't explain why, then didn't answer any of my follow up posts or questions. I really think that's a justifiable reason to change your opinion on somebody, I have no idea why you're acting like this is some crazy turnaround. If I stopped responding to the posts you were making, it would be perfectly justifiable for you to be suspicious of me.

"You're missing the point. You're the last to read but the first to want to take credit. The problem isn't that your reads align with general consensus, but that they only ever come out after everyone else has said their piece. The most blatant example of this is that you voted for someone you thought was town (Illwei), and didn't actually scum read them until other people began to do so. This is quite literally what chronologically happened."

I scum read them after they failed to explain their vote for me or answer any of my questions. You can make an argument about how the timing is suspicious, but my reasons are perfectly valid.

"This is just flat out wrong. Ad hominem is an argument or reaction directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining. Such as your random insults and attacks against my character."

OK, I'll acknowledge my definition of ad hominem was phrased poorly. I had what you just typed in mind but made it broader than necessary. However, within that defintion, everthing I said about the use of ad hominems is true. For example, if I decided I thought Player A was scum because they were acting too relaxed, that would be reacting to the player rather than the position they are maintaining. That would be an ad hominem attack.

"Questions don't need to be actual questions now huh."

I mean, do you disagree with the example I gave? Like, do you understand the concept of begging the question? Even if it's not explicitly a question, if it's supposed to provoke the same response that an actual question would give? You say it's not questioning but in the example I gave, Post 324, I invoked a response from you that attempts to refute what I said, without me explicitly including any question marks or phrasing anything as a question. So... it worked? So... my argument is valid? There are plenty of posts in this thread which throw shade on people and invite them to explain themselves without explictly asking a question.

"Yes, and you town read them for this."

See above. I never denied townreading Illwei.

"I literally had to push you to do any of this. Again, it doesn't count if you only do it after I point it out."

What??? When did you have to push me to question you? And when did you have to push me to question Illwei?

"If you're legitimately scum hunting, wouldn't this be exactly what you wanted? Why are you annoyed by having to play the game?"

I'm annoyed because I expect attacks on me to not be based on falsehoods.

You also just didn't even bother responding to everything. It's convenient that you ignored everything that you know you can't defend yourself against.

You have this incredibly annoying habit of beginng the question... what did I not respond to?

[Bimblesticks]

Illwei, if you don't want to get voted today, I'd appreciate it if you answered some questions:

1. Why did you vote for me? What is your read on me at the moment, considering you haven't unvoted?

2. Why have you been reacting to everything with apathy? Do you just not care about this game?

3. Do you genuinely belive cabd/mo are the scumteam? Can you not understand why people are suspicious of you?

Also, I disagree with Ydresse that Post 363 is a town post. The argument made here doesn't make sense, townies should obviously want as much information as possible and to pressure people that vote for them.

[Bimblesticks]

let's yeet bimblesticks

VOTE: bimble

I admire the confidence but could you uhhh... explain why you want to vote me?

[Bimblesticks]

let's yeet bimblesticks

VOTE: bimble

I admire the confidence but could you uhhh... explain why you want to vote me?

vibes, my dude

you were the person whose posting most made me feel like I was just reading blah blah justifications instead of someone really engaged with the thread

I mean I can't really refute "vibes". And I think my justifications were pretty reasonable, Roden went to great extents to present the most extreme possible version of every argument against me. Hopefully I give you better vibes tomorrow.

let's yeet bimblesticks

VOTE: bimble

I admire the confidence but could you uhhh... explain why you want to vote me?

Hello -- I'm new here -- I have not read anything from your slot yet

I see from the VC, you are voting Illwei - can you explain your reasoning there?

Also, if Illwei was off the table, who would you be looking at as of now?

My vote for Illwei is based off the fact he voted for me a while ago, and it took me multiple posts on the topic before he actually explained why, and his only explanation was that StrangeMatter didn't after they asked me to talk more, and he didn't understand that, which is a really minor justification for voting somebody. He's also been reacting to everything with a kind of apathy and not really engaging with the thread, the best example of which is Post 491.

I scumread the last person to hold your slot, Roden (if you want to find out why I suggest you read their ISO, we had a bit of a back-and-forth before they replaced out). You're more reasonable, so I haven't decided yet how I read you, but I have you at SL in my mind.

I'll probably make a list of my reads on everyone before the end of the day.

[Bimblesticks]

I promised I would give a list of my reads, so here goes:

TR

: The Bulge, Ydrasse

TL

: Cabd

NTL

:

N

: GrandpaMo, Lukewarm

NSL

: StrangeMatter

SL

:

SR

: Illwei

I've left sang froid out because part of me wants to believe he's lying about his claim. Being a genuine role cop and claiming it D1 in a game with this set-up feels like such an unbelievably stupid move that I'm leaning towards him being VT trying to cover for PTs or scum trying to pretend to cover for PTs. Where I sort him depends a lot on whether or not he survives with results tomorrow.

In response to those arguing I'm scum, I haven't been involved in too many conversations this game so I can't really make an argument in defense of myself, other than to say that I think Illwei is more suspicious. They've generally avoided giving strong answers to questions or giving their own opinions on people, using excuses about how they don't know or don't care. Here are a few examples:

Leaving out your thoughts is kind of like pushing someone scummy, but not really explaining why they are pushing that person.

lmao that's all i do, nice to know

This one is bizarre. Why make posts without explaining your reasoning?

Where is everyone right now, I get that discussion is a bit harder with a person VLA, and one has to be replaced, but 6 other people aren't even talking at all. That kind of seems like a waste of a day to have no discussion whatsoever. So can those 6 people explain why they're not talking right now?

Don't expect me to be so active, I joined this game because I don't have so much time during the days anymore but still wanted to play a game, so I figured one that wasn't 48/24 would be easier for my schedule.

This one in particular is weird to me, only a little bit into the game he's already setting a low standard for himself, saying we shouldn't expect him to engage much.

A statement on what? "apathy" How do you feel apathetic about three people reading you as evil?

my dear bimble
if only I could feel anythin but apathy rn tbh

Illwei, if you don't want to get voted today, I'd appreciate it if you answered some questions:

1. Why did you vote for me? What is your read on me at the moment, considering you haven't unvoted?

2. Why have you been reacting to everything with apathy? Do you just not care about this game?

3. Do you genuinely belive cabd/mo are the scumteam? Can you not understand why people are suspicious of you?

Also, I disagree with Ydresse that Post 363 is a town post. The argument made here doesn't make sense, townies should obviously want as much information as possible and to pressure people that vote for them.

1. because whatshisface didn't. their post read like something they wanted to pressure, and then they didn't add pressure, and I was like ???? but brain doesn't work so that was my way of expressing that.

2. my dude I don't care about life right now, but there have been so many sub outs already and I subbed out of my last MS game so I am here out of sheer stubbornness

3. No. That was a joke. because they are both repeatedly spelling my name how it sounds and not how it is spelled, but they both seem to hear it differently. I found it funny lol.

Number 2 here just feels like a really easy way to avoid having to explain yourself.

I want to talk but I dread posting because I'm going to be expected to solve and I am too lost to solve right now if that even makes any sense

This is a game of mafia, and there are people scumreading you. You don't have to solve everything but some pushes or opinions on recent events would be nice.


I totally understand and emphasise with the argument that scum would want to appear engaged, but, to dabble in WIFOM, Illwei's apathy feels like a really easy way to avoid having to engage and talk (as the more you talk, the more likely people are to scumread what you say), while still keeping this aura of town (after all, why would a townie act this apathetic?).

[Bimblesticks]

*cop, not role cop.

[Bimblesticks]

Good morning, I have nothing new to contribute - sang froid what are your results? Were you lying about being cop or have you decided to withhold your results for some reason?

[Bimblesticks]

Posting so I don't get prodded ig

Is the fact sang froid is saying nothing about his results supposed to be some subtle way of saying he was lying that I don't get because I'm new? Why does nobody seem concerned that sang froid claimed a cop and has offered no results?

[Bimblesticks]

OK hello I'm here

I hate to repeat myself but why doesn't anyone care that sang froid has no results???

I've been mulling over who to vote and I'm still going to go with Illwei, I don't really read Cabd as scum.

VOTE: Illwei