Newbie 2072: All Guns Blazing!! - Ended

[Lukewarm]

Zyla, please tell me you are town this time so we can finally be on the same team

[Lukewarm]

Also, for people unfamiliar with Not_Mafia -- this is his entrance in every game -- regardless of alignment.

But also, be aware, that he is known to hammer any and all wagons that hit E-1 (again, regardless of alignment), so for this game, do not put someone at E-1 unless you are ready for that to be the hammer

[Lukewarm]

Since Val and Vote both start with V and linguistic logic will not be denied

portia and pavowski both start with a p, which makes u teammates try to fight this undeniable logic

Luke! Vote Marci, she's masonhunting!

Ummm. Zyla ---

I read that as a scum team accusation, you're the one who brought up Masons (again) smh

[Lukewarm]

I read that as a scum team accusation

Me too

In terms of Not_Mafia, then, maybe should we do the whole intent-to-hammer+claim shebang at E-2 instead of E-1 then...? More like an "intent to E-1"?

Yeah, thats probably the right way to handle any game that Not_Mafia is alive in.

VOTE: alstroemerial

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: Val

Just went and read that post in their first game, and this is not anything like it.

In their other game, they opened up with a scum case, that because it was on page 2 of the thread, was clearly pretty weak. But, they came at it like a scum case none the less. They are trying to catch a lie and talking about word choice being indicative of alignment.

When questioned about their first post they said:

My reason for dressing up an RVS vote in the amount of verbiage I did was to make sure there was at least something substantial to discuss

Now compare that to this one, where their first post basically boiled down to "Not_Mafia's name is Not_Mafia" -- what thing of substance did they bring to this game?

[Lukewarm]

Page 2 Hero Solve [Val89, alstroemerial]

[Lukewarm]

It doesn't matter if you think the logic can be reduced to "Not_Mafia's name is Not_Mafia"; I don't agree that's a fair summation of the argument, and tells me you haven't engaged fully with it, by the way

If you take post 25, and replace Not_Mafia's name with any other name - would the argument mean anything? No, because your argument relies solely on the name of his account.

Also, the logic you applied, would that not stand true in literally every Newbie game that Not_Mafia plays?

And if it does apply to every single game he plays in, then clearly it is not actually of any substance.

[Lukewarm]

And Lo and behold, it has acheived just that. Look who immeadatlety jumps to Not_Mafia's defense, and with a vote no less. I imagine you noticed in that previous game it was the 'target' of the post who came in and tried to defend as if it were a serious scum case, but hell, I will take their scum partner doing so on their behalf. In fact, it's preferable, given that we now only need to chose who to lim first - Not_Mafia, or Lukewarm.

Are you saying that the townie thing to do in this scenario, is to completely ignore you?

Spoiler:

(also, I did not notice any thing about your target, I only looked at like the first 4ish posts in your iso)

I do find it strange that you jumped to the conclusion that I am defending Not Mafia. In what world, would I need to defend Not_Mafia from the post you made?

Does it not make more sense that I am trying to figure you out? I saw you make a post, claim that that post was town indicative for you, and you even linked to a prior game to support it -- so I followed up.

[Lukewarm]

Does that mean you are satisfied with your vote, Lukewarm?

i am satisfied enough for Page 2 -- you are the most interesting thing that has happened so far this game

[Lukewarm]

so far i think alstroemerial is a bit townie, (23 is just a town mindset i think.)

This is interesting. That was the very post that led me to vote for them.

They had made 4 posts (at the time, was one of the most posts) -- and none of them were about the game.

-RVS vote
-Explained that RVS vote was because of the alphabet
-Talking about WotM
-Talking about Not_Mafia's voting habits

It was starting to feel like someone who felt like they should be posting, but was nervous about jumping in --- which can describe new!Scum

[Lukewarm]

Ah yes, why would I ever try to compare how you are engaging with the thread right now, to how you were engaging with the thread of that game during RVS?

-- This is indeed a quite mysterious question

[Lukewarm]

Val, you have interesting opinions of what a town player would do in a game vs what a scum player would do in a game

[Lukewarm]

I still think since Not_Mafia is at E-2, we should just go ahead and make him the lim for the day rather than piviot to Lukewarm, though. We can deal with him tomorrow.

This is probably the scummiest sentence I have read.

The idea that any town player would already be ready to decide who should be the Day 1 elim on page 2 baffles me

Not_Mafia is only at E-2, because he is voting for himself right now lol

[Lukewarm]

Hi, haven't read anything and not going to for a while but

VOTE: Not_Mafia

And another one of the votes on him comes from someone who has not read the game yet

[Lukewarm]

You positioning as if Not_Mafia being the day 1 elimination is already a forgone conclusion is odd.

[Lukewarm]

Val was one of the more substantive posters in 2068

I think you might have misunderstood Lukewarm. I am he will correct me if I am wrong, but he was trying to suggest that I have posted nothing of substance to THIS game thus far, not that I posted nothing of substance in 2068.

Indeed. My original point was that Val's first post in 2068 had substance -- and they even said later that they purposefully chose to include substance in their RVS vote -- but Val's first post in 2072 does not have that same substance.

[Lukewarm]

sure it could describe newbie scum, but it could also describe newbie town just as well. those were p1 posts, i dont think its really weird for posts on p1 to seem that way.

Possibly -- When I voted them, I mainly wanted to see how they were going to react to me voting them / saying that they had not really engaged with the game at all -- but then I got side tracked with Val

[Lukewarm]

Maybe Val is just strange.

VOTE: alstroemerial[/unvote]

I saw 42 - do you have any thoughts about this game?

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: alstroemerial

Spoiler:

That will teach me to manually type the tag instead of hitting the button x.x

[Lukewarm]

By the way, does anyone else have an opinion if Zyla's post counts as a potential Buzzword scumtell?

From what I can see, the 7for7 is the only one she has used, so I think it is too early to say that -- and now that you have pointed it out, it will likely never be useful to sort her.

However, I am pretty confident in my ability to have a solid read on her by the end of Day 1 -- I will keep you posted

[Lukewarm]

However, I am pretty confident in my ability to have a solid read on her by the end of Day 1 -- I will keep you posted

Interesting. Is that because you've played with her before, and have managed to correctly read her by the end of Day 1 in the past?

I have played 2 games with Zyla so far.

In our first game, she was scum, I was suspicious of pretty early in Day 1, then lead her elim Day 2.

In our second game, she was town, and I could see a distinct difference in how she played compared to the first (Although, I was scum that game)

[Lukewarm]

If I were voting seriously at this point, I'd be voting Lukewarm

[Lukewarm]

I liked 73

VOTE: Val

[Lukewarm]

ebwop: sorry the quote got butchered, I was trying to do the thing where I highlight just the part I want to quote

That feature does not work if you are trying to grab a quote within a quote

[Lukewarm]

Hello, hi. I get the feeling that my suspicion on Val have not been understood.

First, I had a RVS-ish vote on their slot:

Spoiler:

I read 25, and none of it seemed serious. I did not take it at face value.

I followed the link to his prior game, and in that game, his first vote was also somewhat non-serious, but it had plenty of things for people in interact with and build the conversation on. I then saw that they explicitly said that their "reason for dressing up an RVS vote in the amount of verbiage I did was to make sure there was at least something substantial to discuss"-- which compared to their first post this game, I felt like it was missing that.

So, a-ha, I spotted a difference between their entrance to that game (where I know they are town) and their entrance to this game (where I do not yet know their alignment)

This was certainly not enough to eliminate anyone, but that is enough for a vote on page 2.
This is the best way I know how to transition from RVS -> Serious discussions. RVS votes (other then maybe the first 2 people in thread) should not actually be completely random. You should be voting for a reason, even if it is a really weak reasons. That lets there be grounds for actual conversation, things for other people to weigh in on, and for you to see how the person will respond

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13710
I would recommend people read this (long) post on RVS -- very much liked it, and am trying to incorporate it into my games

But basically, I dropped a "rvs worthy vote" on them to give us something to talk about, and to get their response--- but their response has been highly suspect:

*Claiming that we should already plan on Not_Mafia being the Day 1 elim
*Accusing me of defending Not_Mafia
*And who actually thinks that another player should have done a full meta dive before casting a vote on page 2?

You what? What sort of mafia player tries to make push a meta read on someone without having first actually read the ISO.

^^These are the reasons I am currently suspicious of Val^^

[Lukewarm]

so far i've kinda thought luke seemed a bit off (mostly cuz i dont like his points on val98 very much)

You said similar things several times throughout our last game together, and we were both town

[Lukewarm]

I just want clarify because I feel like I must be misunderstanding something here, your

Yes?

[Lukewarm]

the following discussion is of substance, rather than the usuall RVS crap we throw around for a few pages.

What I am saying is that once you said that you specifically wanted serious discussion, and not "the usual rvs crap" that you were taking part in serious discussions.

Is your current "defense" that despite what you said in 33, you were not actually taking par in "discussions of substance" and I should not be taking anything you say seriously?

[Lukewarm]

My intent of 86 was to say that the reason I voted you in post 31 was an rvs worthy reason, and I mostly wanted to see how you would respond to the vote. -- But now I am saying that I your response felt scummy.

I am not sure what quoting more of post 33 changes.

My point is that you claimed to prefer serious discussion, and that your intent with your first post was to spark serious discussion. -- Are you now saying that I am wrong to have started taking you seriously after you said that?

Are you saying that after I saw you claim to prefer serious discussion, that I should not have taken you seriously?

[Lukewarm]

To be clear:

--I did not take your Not_Mafia case seriously.

--I did take everything you said after post 33 seriously --- Specifically because in that post you said you prefer "discussions of substance"

[Lukewarm]

And if you are claiming that you were not being serious when you accused me of defending Not_Mafia in 33, when you acted like I should have meta dived you in 41, and that Not_Mafia should be the Day 1 Elim in post 44----

Why did you say that your post was designed to start a discussion of substance AND that it had "achieved just that"

the argument itself isn't the substance Im hoping to draw - I hope simply that someone takes it as a serious indication of somebodies alignment - either the person I direct the post at, or myself, and that the following discussion is of substance, rather than the usuall RVS crap we throw around for a few pages.

And Lo and behold, it has acheived just that.

Is your claim now really that you said the quoted in 33, then none of your posts after it were serious....

You trying acting as though your statements were ones that should not be taken seriously, it a hard pill to swallow ---

This newest angle coming from you really just feels like you are trying to weasel your way out of statements that are now being held against you

[Lukewarm]

I'm gonna take a break before I get full tunnely on Val for this. Everyone else feel free to weigh in, even if just to tell me I am actually a big dum-dum

[Lukewarm]

I still think since Not_Mafia is at E-2, we should just go ahead and make him the lim for the day rather than piviot to Lukewarm, though. We can deal with him tomorrow.

agree with u luke, this seems pretty weird.

I still think since Not_Mafia is at E-2, we should just go ahead and make him the lim for the day rather than piviot to Lukewarm, though. We can deal with him tomorrow.

Even though my play with Val sample size is one (or rather, playing with anyone), this does seem very uncharacteristic.

Ah yes, as we can all see, I am indeed the only person who took Val seriously.

For the people who have actually seen me play scum, would you describe my play as "over-the-top sensitive to any suggestion early game I might be scum" -- and do you think that this looks like my reaction to shade while scum? (I would say I took a very different approach to Hockey scum reading me lol)

Anyways, I am fully ready to death tunnel Val now

[Lukewarm]

I find it difficult to believe that the argument he made in post 99 was genuine.

For starters, he has now backed off of the Not_Mafia scum read -- So his theory appears to be:

• **Scum!me saw Val make post 25 where he voted for Not_Mafia, who is not my partner -- and in response, I voted Val (for some reason)
  
  **Then, Val accused me of being scum partners with Not_Mafia AND he says that we should elim Not_Mafia first -- and in response, I became defensive and needed to "lay the narrative that he was scum early" (for some reason)

Instead of, I don't know, being overjoyed? Like, that is the dream scenario for Scum!Me. --- I get linked to a town player, we flip that town player, which subconsciously makes people inclined to believe I am town, and overtly, the argument that "I was defending my partner Not_Mafia" instantly goes away. So why would I ever start pushing him there, instead of just planning to blame him for a Not_Mafia elim tomorrow?

--------------------------------

Also, how can he genuinely be accusing

me

of scum reading

him

because

he

started scum reading

me

?

When the reality of the situation is that

I voted him

in post

31

and then

he started calling me scum

in

33

I would like to Uno Reverse Card him here, and say that from my PoV, his entire scum case on me appears to have started immediately after I voted him in post 31

[Lukewarm]

That is what you felt like responding to there?

I do not think Not_Mafia is actually scum due to any logic I give in 25, I don't think he should be the lim today, and as such at present I would unvote him if another vote came his way

You made it clear that you do not currently scum read Not Mafia -- and as such, your theory behind your scum read in 99 makes no sense.

That being the thing you wanted to respond to, instead of addressing my concerns in regard to your read -- either by explaining why you think Scum!me would act that way or by adjusting your read -- certainly does not make me more inclined to think that your read was ever genuine to begin with

[Lukewarm]

Every post from Val just sinks me deeper and deeper into this tunnel.

I'm gonna check out for real this time, and head to bed. If someone thinks that I am wildly off the mark, let me know

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

Insomnia is a bitch

For some reason, you seem to think that me saying "Val has backed off off of the Not_Mafia scum read" instead of something like "Val has made is clear that they are not currently scum reading Not_Mafia," somehow invalidates the rest of the point, when... it doesn't.

I read post 33, and that does not seem like a genuine stance for you could believe, because the scum motivation you are presenting is nonsense.

I mean, I can even rephrase without the word choice you appear stuck on, just to show that the thing you honed in on is pointless...

---------------------

I find it difficult to believe that the argument he made in post 99 was genuine.

Val has made is clear that they are not currently scum reading Not_Mafia,

which would mean that his theory is as follows:

• **Scum!me saw Val make post 25 where he voted for Not_Mafia, who is not my partner -- and in response, I voted Val (for some reason)
  
  **Then, Val accused me of being scum partners with Not_Mafia AND he says that we should elim Not_Mafia first -- and in response, I became defensive and needed to "lay the narrative that he was scum early" (for some reason)

Instead of, I don't know, being overjoyed? Like, that is the dream scenario for Scum!Me. --- I get linked to a town player, we flip that town player, which subconsciously makes people inclined to believe I am town, and overtly, the argument that "I was defending my partner Not_Mafia" instantly goes away. So why would I ever start pushing him there, instead of just planning to blame him for a Not_Mafia elim tomorrow?

--------------------------------

Also, how can he genuinely be accusing

me

of scum reading

him

because

he

started scum reading

me

?

When the reality of the situation is that

I voted him

in post

31

and then

he started calling me scum

in

33

I would like to Uno Reverse Card him here, and say that from my PoV, his entire scum case on me appears to have started immediately after I voted him in post 31

---------------------------------

Like I said before, each post from you is digging me deeper into a tunnel, because the fact that you want to harp over word choice, instead of the core point is worrisome

[Lukewarm]

Tl;Dr

I find it hard to believe that the stance taken in 99 are genuine, because the scum motivation presented are nonsense

and because you claim that my suspicions on you originated because of your suggestions that I could be scum, even though I voted you prior to you ever saying that

[Lukewarm]

At this point, I feel like I am drowning the thread. For real this time, I am checking off, and will try not to post again until everyone else has gotten a chance to weigh in
(If I post before then,

please

yell at me)

[Lukewarm]

Hello -- I have slept on it, and reread Val's points. I am just pretty sure Val just is scum here -- But I also am aware that I am not the greatest at convincing people to follow me (I would say that the Newbie game against Zyla and T3 was the exception, not the rule) -- So I accept defeat on trying to convince anyone over the prior discussion, and will simply keep an eye on them.

Plus, there are 7 other slots for me to sort.

[Lukewarm]

After playing like 4-ish games with Not_Mafia, I am against a Day 1 Not_Mafia elim, and generally suspicious of people who lean into eliming him Day 1 -- he is an easy miselim target / angle for the scum team to push. Plus, I have also found him to be a pretty good scum hunter, and would like to see any pushes that he leans into before I personally try to sort him.

Although, I do not believe I have actually encountered scum Not_Mafia before

[Lukewarm]

so far i've kinda thought luke seemed a bit off (mostly cuz i dont like his points on val98 very much)

You said similar things several times throughout our last game together, and we were both town

Im lazy - will you actually quote them saying the similar thing? Without hard proof, this would be quite effective manipilation.

If you want to hunt for what I am refering to, go ahead, but I am not trying to sway you, or anyone else to take that into consideration in their attempts to sort me or to sort Marci.

That was purely directed at Marci, who should know what game I am referring to. You are welcome to ignore it if you want

[Lukewarm]

I haven't seen a reason to move it just yet. While Lukewarm appears to have taken my post 99 as saying "I read Lukewarm as scum", I'm not all the way there yet.

This is not an accurate description of my thoughts.

I never thought that Val had me scum locked (and I am sorry if I gave that impression) -- my point was:: I it hard to believe that Val's thoughts presented in 99 were genuine. The level of the read did not matter

[Lukewarm]

Did you really take that to mean I was making legimitiate pre-flip associations?

The more you say this, the more I hate it. You put out a bunch of content, and now seem aghast that we would try to sort you based off of that content.

If you were not being serious in the first, however many posts you are claiming you were not being serious, then even if you are town, then you were being-anti town.

[Lukewarm]

I am just pretty sure Val just is scum here -- But I also am aware that I am not the greatest at convincing people to follow me (I would say that the Newbie game against Zyla and T3 was the exception, not the rule) -- So I accept defeat on trying to convince anyone over the prior discussion

I have to say if you are "pretty sure" you have scum in your sights, but you decide up front you won't be able to convince other people of the fact, perhaps your argument isn't as strong as you think it is. You don't think it's worth pushing your "pretty sure" scumread until you've sorted all the other slots? I would say if you are sure, at least giving your best attempt to pushing that slot all the way to the flip today is the way to play towards the town victory, no?

Dear lord-- I am not enjoying interacting with you.

Yes, I think you are scum
Yes, I think that it is more beneficial for me to sort the other slots instead of just pushing head long into an elim on you, and cutting the day short
Yes, I am choosing to put aside my scum read on you while I do that sorting

Also, I plan on circling back to you, and currently plan on coming back to pushing you when we get closer to the end of the day -- after I have given myself time to look at the other players and have more content from you -- unless something of import happens between now and the end of the day.

I have got 9 days to try and sort other people, before I have to put forth the effort needed to rally the up the votes against you. In what world, would it be better for me to do the opposite?

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: Umlaut

Come talk to us!!

[Lukewarm]

Ignoring Val for approximately 3 days -- will return to that slot before the day's end

[Lukewarm]

Strange. I see now that it is in the mod notes, but he does not have his account in V/LA. I actually did check that before I voted lol

UNVOTE:

[Lukewarm]

Marci! Come talk to me!

[Lukewarm]

133 for saying that you're gonna focus on other people than val98, you really arent doing that sis
other than umulat, who else would u wanna focus on at this point?

This is literally why I am trying to get you to talk to me.

Is there anything else this game that you think we should be talking about?

[Lukewarm]

I am starting to feel a little bit like I am being asked if I am a Mason with NM. I can start to understand where you get your reputation for that sort of thing from.

Lmao, no that's because I literally said "That joke sounded more like you were claiming Mason" (not exact words) to someone.
Hilariously, Luke was the actual Mason in the game

In that game, Zyla openly mentioned Masons multiple times, across multiple days. Digging into someone possibly having tmi is not quite the same thing imo

[Lukewarm]

Why not? Sure we shouldn't eliminate him right now, as it's early in the day, but most people seem to agree that they're hard to read and would be an easy mis-elim, which I at least would rather do the most likely miselim on day 1 and let someone else contribute to the thread

Zyla, this is a strange stance to take.

You think it is better to just go ahead and shoot the easy mis-elim target, then for us to try and scum hunt?

[Lukewarm]

Is there anything else this game that you think we should be talking about?

im not rlly sure rn, im still trying to figure out my reads >.<
-
whats ur read on alstro (im not sure if thats spelt right, but do u understand who i mean? (:) it was a bit confusing, im not sure where u sit rn

and portia and pavowski as well, ive noticed u havent rlly mentioned them

I am leaning more town for Alstro after 73. My biggest concern early on was that they were not engaging with the game, but in that one post he touched on Val, me, and Zyla, and this line seemed pro town

My other thought is that I want to keep Not_Mafia around for at least a while because taking him out immediately just because he has a certain... history seems like a recipe for an easy miselim. So I don't love how fast that turned into a wagon

[Lukewarm]

Are you really trying to spin 73 as Alstro having taken me seriously? I can't speak for them, but I have to say it reads pretty clear to me - if they thought you might be "playing along", then they thought there was a joke of some kind to play along with. I'm sure they can weigh in on the issue.

Just so you all are updated, I'm still trying to digest the total interaction, but to clarify what I meant, I thought Val was joking in the original Not_Mafia post, and then got serious once Luke was putting some pressure on. Kidding out of the way, after that, I took 44 seriously, which is why it pinged me as odd. You can take the two paragraphs in that part of 73 as two separate points. First, that Val's post 44 was weird. Second, pointing out that I took 25 as a joke and then consequently wasn't sure how serious to take Luke at first (now I know the answer is serious).

This is how I read your original post

[Lukewarm]

and portia and pavowski as well, ive noticed u havent rlly mentioned them

They are both in a "I need more content from them" category

From experience, Pavowski is not someone that I can read very well :/

In our first game, he replaced into a slot that I was pretty sure was town, and he tanked that read a bit in my eyes. It was in fact a town slot, so I am aware that I don't really read his posts as town, even when he is town

[Lukewarm]

I checked around Marci's topics and found a newbie game where town!Marci didn't vote until after post 500...

Marci

[Lukewarm]

@Portia -- I am reading through your iso, but I cannot find anything where you have taken stances on anyother slots - one way or the other

Do you have any reads? Even just gut feelings?

[Lukewarm]

Do you see the one w the triangles. Take that and stuff it up you ass.

This response is... unexpected.

I guess I did miss a single "rings town" from you, but I was just trying to engage you and get a feel for your reads/thoughts this game

Fuck me I guess

[Lukewarm]

I don’t think you v p person is tvt.

I tend to think Marci is fairly Newb town.

-- me v "p person" ?

-- What makes you think Marci is town? Any posts stand out to you?

[Lukewarm]

I was hoping you had something that was helping you lean town. Having played against (and almost lost to) scum!Marci, I am still on the fence with her

[Lukewarm]

I was finding your tunnel unhelpful.

---

I don’t think you v

p person

Val is tvt.

This is an interesting combination of thoughts for you to have.

You think that my 1v1 was both unhelpful, and you also think that it narrowed scum down to being between 2 people?

[Lukewarm]

Early reads for me are based on not much and rely on parsing language for things that might or might not even be there (see the entirety of Luke/Val).

For now we're just jousting back and forth about innuendos and assumptions. (Which I guess some people put a lot of stock in, but I am skeptical how useful it is.)

Basically I'm still getting a feel for the people I don't know, and trying to separate out the meta from the ones I do. Any read I have would have a degree of confidence so low as to hardly bear mentioning.

I understand this mind set, but when people take this approach to a game day 1, it results in an inactive game, and thus takes longer for the game to get to the point where you are comfortable with your reads.

I general, I find it more beneficial for players to be a bit fast and loose with their reads for the first half of Day 1. "This seems town" and "this seems scummy" for things that are not enough for a town or scum read in ELo -- players are voicing opinions, and people can ask themselves if those opinions make sense, and it can all be looked back on later.

Some thing that I have seen in our other game together (and I would say that I have seen this from town marci as well) is that you appear to hang back until you are sure of reads

This does a few things:
--active scum can take control of the direction of the thread, because cautious townies are not trying to lead (see me orchestrating a miselim on Strange Day 1 in our previous game)
--you can get scum read by the town for not scum hunting (see Marci getting scum read in our last game)
--the scum ream can make a case against you stating that you are lurking (see me making a case against you in our previous game)

[Lukewarm]

Not Voting : Val89, marcistar, Pavowski, Lukewarm, Zyla

oop

VOTE: Portia

[Lukewarm]

oop

VOTE: Portia

Is that vote supposed to indicate you are scumreading Portia, Lukewarm?

It indicates that I have directed questions for Portia that I would like answered -- and I believe that those answers might be Alignment Indicative. So, will keep you updated

[Lukewarm]

@Pav -- spoilered, because I feel like the discussion is entering like a "mafia theory" territory

Spoiler:

This thread has been anything but *inactive*
--------
These are interesting points for you to make.

If you removed the me v Val 1v1, there is a lot less going on -- and now that I have taken a step back from that, and it feels like no one else stepping forward to push us in a new direction.

I am trying to get other people to make pushes / apply pressure / ect -- on our last vote count over half the lobby was not voting for anyone (5/9), and of the votes that were out there, no one has more then 1 vote on them. So, no one is currently under pressure any pressure what so ever.

As it stands, I am left feeling like I could singlehandedly take full control of this thread -- which, if I were scum, would not be a good thing

I think that that is the single biggest difference I have found playing in Newbie Games vs other games. The majority of the lobby is playing a bit cautiously, as opposed to half the lobby loudly scum hunting, all pulling the discussion in various directions, so then the lobby can look at each direction and compare for themselves -- and decide which is the best option

[Lukewarm]

^^Nice, a scum claim

[Lukewarm]

Anyway, I'll take a step further to say I think your tunnel on Val is misguided and your intent to continue it is scummy, and I now think there's scum on one side or the other of that little blow-up where I didn't originally.

I think Zyla is hanging back where she doesn't normally seem to, which is not a great look.

And while I think Portia maybe doesn't have the greatest manner (I'm still scratching my head over 166) he feels towny to me.

These are leans and gut reads and nothing more. But I agree with you, there are people I want to hear more from in this thread.

- My "intent to continue is scummy" -- can you explain that better? I have dropped it, and am currently looking in other directions -- my stated intent is to come back to it in a few days, and determine if I still think it is the scummiest thing I have seen Day 1. Do you think it would be less scummy for me to decide to just call Val town? Or to have kept pushing it without looking at other people?

- I also noticed this, and was keeping my eye on it. I looked back at our last game, and she seemed surprised herself that she found something to latch on to early -- have you played any other games with her?

-What feels townie coming from Portia? Any posts stand out?

[Lukewarm]

^^Nice, a scum claim

hows voting you a scumclaim from val o-o

It supports the leading reason why I am scum reading him right now -- But I am actively avoiding digging back into scum casing Val for a couple days

[Lukewarm]

1 -- your intent to continue signals to me that you've basically made your mind up on this one, and yeah, I think it's early for that. I'm not saying you could've or should've played it any other way, that ship has sailed.

The reason I followed up on your first post was because you did not say "it is too early" you said it is "scummy"

Do you think scum!me would be more likely to make that play then town!me? And why?

[Lukewarm]

1 -- your intent to continue signals to me that you've basically made your mind up on this one, and yeah, I think it's early for that. I'm not saying you could've or should've played it any other way, that ship has sailed.

The reason I followed up on your first post was because you did not say "it is too early" you said it is "scummy"

Do you think scum!me would be more likely to make that play then town!me? And why?

See, this is what I mean about parsing words that don't necessarily mean anything. Yes, in my opinion it's too early to make up your mind about any particular player. Yes, I think it's scummy that you're tunneling *so hard* on Val and signaling intent to continue doing so. Those things are not exclusive; they are linked.

I think a townie looking out for town would move on from a bad push. They would certainly move on from pressure just meant to gather information. The fact you simply won't let it go reads more like scum pushing for a miselim.

Thank you --- the point of my question is that I wanted to make sure I fully understood your stance / logic, and I was not sure I did before - now I am

I am not sure why you think that that form of a question is meaningless tho

[Lukewarm]

Umlaut has yet to contribute

It is my understanding that today is the last day of their V/LA

Do you have any thoughts on the game so far?

[Lukewarm]

so far i've kinda thought luke seemed a bit off (mostly cuz i dont like his points on val98 very much)

You said similar things several times throughout our last game together, and we were both town

Im lazy - will you actually quote them saying the similar thing? Without hard proof, this would be quite effective manipilation.

Luke you mind hitting this up

I already addressed it in 129 -- that was more for Marci

Spoiler: If you must know

It was referencing This game, Micro 1010 - Marci started with a town lean on me, but then several times said "I am not sure any more" because she disagreed with basically every push I made all game lol

[Lukewarm]

I am not sure why you think that that form of a question is meaningless tho

I'm sorry, I've lost the thread of what question we were originally talking about. I'm not sure it matters anymore at this point. To me, you were making a distinction without a difference when you pointed out in one post I called something "scummy" and in a subsequent post that "it was too early" to decide something.

I feel like we are losing the thread here lol

Spoilering because none of it is new, just trying to reiterate earlier things.

Spoiler:

You called it scummy in 185

I asked why you thought it was scummy in 186***

You responded in 189. That response did not make it clear why you thought scum would be more likely to make the play, and from imo, it sounded more you just did not like the play

I followed up again with 190, because I was trying to nail down if you thought it was actually scum-indicative (and why) or if you just did not like the play -- because I was still unsure

You then cleared it up in 192 by that you thought it looked like scum ramping up to a miselim <----- This is the information I was looking for when I asked 186, but it took a few follow up questions for me to get there lol.

In 192, you also said that my follow up seemed meaningless. But this is the meaning. I was not sure if you actually thought it was scum-indicative, and if you did think that, I was unclear why you thought scum would be more likely to do so

[Lukewarm]

It's not that the tunneling is scummy. It's that it went on too long, for my tastes, to be an information-gathering exercise and moved into "this feels motivated" territory, to the point where one of two things seems to have happened:
1) town!Luke has decided he's cornered scum here and doesn't want to let the chance to eliminate scum on d1 slip away, or
2) scum!Luke wants to get Val miselim'd for reasons

Neither would surprise me but given the tenor and the duration of the interaction I lean slightly toward #2 at the moment

It is very much #1.

I started out with a weak point (but good enough for page 2), looking for his response and reaction -- and every reaction he had screamed scum to me. So, my read ramped up considerably

[Lukewarm]

Also, I am pretty sure Pav is town at this point

[Lukewarm]

I know I said that I was going to avoid my val read for a bit, but fuck it. Here is a long post, that I hope can help people understand what I saw

Stage One

I dropped what was essentially a RVS vote on Val with post 31

• There really was not much at this point, but I did spot a difference between the two -- I mainly just wanted to get Val talking

In response to that, Val accused me of being scum in post 33 -- which, is suspicious lol.

• I also find it doubtful that anyone would actually feel the need to defend a scum partner here -- So I doubted that he would genuinely think that

In that same post, he also tried defend his nonsense case, which struck me as odd. Why defend it?

At this point, I thought it was odd, but was ready to move on to trying to sorting alstro (see post 40) -- but post 41 from Val pulled me back to him

Stage Two

This is when I actually started to lean scum

Post 41 is odd - There is a level of exasperation that seems to come through, when he realized how weak my case up to that point was. Why?

What sort of mafia player tries to make push a meta read on someone without having first actually read the ISO.

Val really thought I was coming after him with a solid meta case, and was surprised to see that that was not the case.

• My theory is that he is jumpy, and when I appeared to be coming at him with a Meta case on page 2, he was not expecting it. (This being why he responded with the OMGUS and the need to defend his nonsense case) So to learn that I did not actually have anything on him, left him surprised, exasperated even, that I came after him to begin with

I would like to point out that in this same post, Val further goes to call me scummy for pointing a finger at him

I also found this line odd:

I still think since Not_Mafia is at E-2, we should just go ahead and make him the lim for the day rather than piviot to Lukewarm, though. We can deal with him tomorrow.

And find it hard to swallow his later walk back, when he defended it in post 56

At this point, I had a scum lean on him

I thought this would be the end of the back and forth. I had achieved a scum lean, time to look at other people -- and moved back to sorting alstro (58) who I also had a suspicion on. That was resolved because I found post 73 townie. Once that concern went away, I parked my vote back on my only scum lean (Val / Post 75) until I found a new place to look.

I Then got the feeling that people thought that the core of my scum lean was still the reasoning for the initial vote. Which was very much not the case. So I made post 86 -- I wanted people to know that my actual scum lean on Val was because if his responses to that initial vote: the omgus reaction to my vote, the claim that we should just focus on Not_Mafia for the time being, and his thoughts about meta diving on Page 2.

My game plan at that time, was to keep looking at other people, but Val started addressing me directly, which pulled me back into the conversation. Post 89, 92, 95, and 96 were all responses to direct questions Val asked me

Val also began claiming that most of the posts that I found scummy were actually non-serious joke posts // which I still find to be a hard pill to swallow. I mean, just look back at post 41 -- Does that read like a post of someone who is joking, or someone who is taking the discussion seriously

Stage Three

This is where I moved from a scum lean to a scum read on Val

Val made post 99. In this post:

• Val makes it clear that he does not currently think that Not_Mafia is scum, which is important, because it means that his theory about me no longer involves Not_Mafia being my partner.
  
  He also says that his "initial thoughts" on my earlier 1v1 with him were "that it leans scummy" -- He then tries to present the narrative that I, as a member of the scum team, was "over-the-top sensitive to any suggestion early game that I might be scum" -- and that I felt the need to start discrediting him
  
  I think it is important to note, what suggestion he thought made me jumpy: It was the suggestion that the scum team was Not_Mafia + Luke -- and again, he was suggesting we should kill Not Mafia first

This is clearly nonsesical. If I am scum, and Not_Mafia is not my partner (which is the stance that Val appeared to be taking) then there is 0 scum motivation for me to react the way that I did

Spoiler:

to be clear, I am not saying that the reaction was inherently townie. I am saying that is is a nonsensical basis for a scum lean

I decided to point that out see post 102

Stage Four

I moved from a scum read, to scumlocking Val in this stage

Since I made 102, where I outlined why Val's logic in 99 makes no sense, he has not once, actually engaged with that argument. He has not come back, and tried to explain a scum motivation that would make sense, and he has also not come back to adjust his read. This tells me that he is not genuinely trying to sort me - he is instead, trying to discredit me.

103: accuses me on being inconsistent (even though the posts quoted are consisten)
106:Ignores everything about the scum motivation, instead trying to discredit it whole sale "Whatever argument then follows from an obviously false premise is worthless, no?"

I even go back, and reword it to remove the thing that apparently was off putting to him 107, and he still never talked about it, and continues to focus on discrediting me

115: Tries to painy my entire case as OMGUS " it may indicate a hypersensitivity to the slightest shade, even if that shade wasn't serious"
And various other discredits:
"I've seen some issues with his response like I've already identified - the selective quoting, attempting to portray me as susing him because he is voting me etc, but I am actively trying hard to read everything this game through the lens of "is there an alternative explanation for this, could this slot, while doing some things you think are scummy not actually be scummy."

That one is particulalry interesting to me, because while he claims to be thinking "is there an alternative explanation" he is also still avoiding my points about post 99

VOTE: Val

[Lukewarm]

Follow me or not, but I am more convinced of this read then I probably have been for any Day 1 read I have had in any game (except maybe that T3 game with Zyla lol)

[Lukewarm]

I also think that it does not help his case, that he has repeatedly said that he is not sure that I am scum. If he was sure that I was scum, it would make a bit more sense that he is completely ignoring my points / discreditting me.

But no, he claims to be unsure, and that it was a weak lean, and that he is "looking to see if there is an alternative" ----- which does not makes sense along side the way he has interacted with my points

[Lukewarm]

No offense, but I know your case is bullshit, and I think it's fairly obviously bullshit and will be seen as such by the other players; but to spend the time dismantling it now will rob me of the opportunity to use your case on me to sort other slots.

I'm waiting to see who else picks up on the stuff I plainly see and comments on it - T3 has explained they have this way of 'town telling' people by seeing who else picks up on things they have. I don't know how accurate that is, but it's worth looking at. If I go ahead and spend the time dismantling your case now, I rob town of the opportunity to learn what they can from others reactions to it.

If it's clear that I am wrong about it being obvious crap (I've been wrong about stuff like this before) and a substantial number of other players seem like they might be confused by it, then I might have something more to say; but I know you've precisely zero chance of riding me to a mislim today and I'm not all that interested in defending myself at this point.

I point was not that you ignored my scum read on you -- my point is that you ignored all of my attempts to engage with YOUR READ on me.

The logic behind your read on me did not make sense -- and that is

not

inherently scummy, townies can come up with reads that don't make sense -- So, I pointed out why it did not makes sense -- Post 107 (102 originally)

In that situation, I am pretty sure that a townie would stop and think about their read, in light of the inconsistency and either:
1) If they still thought it made sense despite the inconsistencies, they would address it, and explain how it still made since, or
2) If they realized that the read did not make sense, acknowledge it, and adjust their read accordingly

But you did neither of those things. Instead, you ignored the inconsistencies pointed out, and just made a bunch of posts to discredit. So that leaves me to believe that you are not actually trying to sort me.

-------------------

I think I have made my case pretty clear at this point.

If the rest of the town wants to town case Val, go for it.

If the rest of the town finds something they find scummier, then you are welcome to scum case someone else -- I will consider other wagons if someone sees something scummier then this.

But from my PoV, I have found scum, and will plant my vote here unless my vote is needed to ensure any other wagon passes, because a No Elim is always bad

[Lukewarm]

Currently at:

Altro, Pav
Umlaut
Not_Mafia, Marci, Zyla
Portia
Val

[Lukewarm]

I also think that it does not help his case, that he has repeatedly said that he is not sure that I am scum. If he was sure that I was scum, it would make a bit more sense that he is completely ignoring my points / discreditting me.

There's not really any good way to engage with someone who is insisting you are mafia, though. Like what is he supposed to say, "Oh well you make a good point there, maybe I'm scum after all"?

Again, I was not trying to get him to engage me on

my scum read of him.

I made several points talking about

his stated read

<--- and this is what I am saying it is weird for him to have completely ignored.

[Lukewarm]

I personally think that elim'ing one of me/Val is probably the play (even if that means you guys yeet me) because it would reveal the most information. More people have weighed on on our 1v1 then anything else in the game, so if we go into Day 2 with info on one or both of those slots, then it will actually give a lot to work with Day 2

--If we do elim within [me, Val], and the consensus is to flip me -- then Val should always be investigated if we have any investigative abilities.
--If the consensus is we flip Val, and he does flip town, I expect apologized from everyone (**eyes Marci**)
--If the consensus is we flip Val, and I am wrong, then I should always be the investigative target if we have any investigative abilities.

[Lukewarm]

I personally think that elim'ing one of me/Val is probably the play (even if that means you guys yeet me) because it would reveal the most information. More people have weighed on on our 1v1 then anything else in the game, so if we go into Day 2 with info on one or both of those slots, then it will actually give a lot to work with Day 2

--If we do elim within [me, Val], and the consensus is to flip me -- then Val should always be investigated if we have any investigative abilities.
--If the consensus is we flip Val, and he does flip

scum

, I expect apologized from everyone (**eyes Marci**)
--If the consensus is we flip Val, and I am wrong, then I should always be the investigative target if we have any investigative abilities.

ebwop

[Lukewarm]

I am going to just add 236 to the list of scummy takes coming from Val

I am okay going first, if that means you guys speed elim Val tomorrow, and let nothing short of a hard cop innocent stop that from happening

VOTE: Luke

[Lukewarm]

See how he continues to ignore the points I have asked him to weigh in on over and over? Shocking
---
If you insist, I will go back to trying to get you eliminated VOTE: Val
-----
I do feel like I should be pretty obviously in my town game for anyone who has played with me before, especially [Marci, Zyla, and Not_Mafia -- maybe a little less so for Pav, because he missed Day 1 of our town game]

^This is the main reason I have Marci as low as I have her on my read list

And I am a little surprised that they don't see that tbh.

[Lukewarm]

I have never wanted a elim more in my life.

@Zyla - the last time you saw me this sure on a read, it was on T3.

• Your experience with me was me catching scum day 1, then catching scum against day 2 -- please humor me with this elim

@Marci - the last time you saw me this sure on a read, it was in regards to how Bingle played Day 1 of our last game, which narrowed the suspects down to exactly [Hopkrik, Vanders] - Bingle later confirmed everything I theorized about him

• I am calling you in for your vote as well.

If you guys follow me today, and it flips town, I am 100% open to being promptly eliminated Day 2 (or better yet, being copped if we have one)

[Lukewarm]

you should never EVER EVER vote for yourself in a game of mafia unless by some way it helps achieve your win condition.

If the town agreed to speed elim you tomorrow, that would be helping my win condition. But your right, the better play is to try and whip up the votes

See above

[Lukewarm]

Is this what the mean by the term openwolfing?

I will say, that I have been accused of "openwolfing" in at least three games I have been in -- I was town in all 3

[Lukewarm]

Zyla and Pav -- your experience with me has been 2 nearly flawless games, back to back.

Marci -- you have at told me that you you think I am good at this game.

Alstro, I know this is second hand, but as you can see, I have left good impression in my past games

I want to play with the famous "rising star"

This is me saying that this is it. This is the time that I am trying to call in that impression I have left behind. I am asking that your past expeiecen with me buy me exactly 1 day 1 vote -- if I am wrong, then you can never follow me anywhere in future games

[Lukewarm]

I do feel like I should be pretty obviously in my town game for anyone who has played with me before, especially [..] Zyla

This is also kind of interesting to me however, we've established in our previous game that I'm not yet sure on how to differentiate town! and scum!Luke, so why would it be obvious?

Why would scum me, ever dive head first into this, and volunteer myself to be the flip tomorrow after a Val flip? This is a suicidal play as scum, and I feel like that should be fairly obvious

And to be frank, I would have expected to see the similarities in how this is playing out in my town game. Where I reached 100% certainty that T3 was scum, and then whipped up the votes

[Lukewarm]

I think that Val taking the "see, he is scum trying to mis elim me" angle, instead of settling into a "Luke is town, just misguided town" is frankly a misplay in his part. I think that my current play is fairly obviously town (even if I am wrong, which I seriously doubt)

[Lukewarm]

I would also point out, that he seems completely unworried about the possibility that I am tunneled town, and that my absolute certainty could lead to 2 town miselims back to back Instead, he is settling into just say that I am flailing scum (which, again, Zyla and Pav have seen my scum game - and come on)

And he is so sure I am scum because,

I, uh... think he is scum?.. and...
**checks notes**
took his early posts seriously


That is enough for him to be unphased by the idea of us both going getting elim'ed?

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

239 wtf luke? i dont think i've ever seen u self vote before o-o

I do feel like I should be pretty obviously in my town game for anyone who has played with me before.

usually ur so obvious town, but this game doesnt feel like the other ones ive seen from you.. granted i dont think ive ever seen u so sure of something on d1

@Marci - the last time you saw me this sure on a read, it was in regards to how Bingle played Day 1 of our last game, which narrowed the suspects down to exactly [Hopkrik, Vanders] - Bingle later confirmed everything I theorized about him

• I am calling you in for your vote as well.

Marci -- you have at told me that you you think I am good at this game.

i do think ur very good. at this point ur going

so hard

at it, i think one of luke/val as an elim would be best, i don't think anyones heads will be clear unless we get some answers from this
i don't want to rush into it though, we have a while still.

And to be frank, I would have expected to see the similarities in how this is playing out in my town game. Where I reached 100% certainty that T3 was scum, and then whipped up the votes

can anyone confirm?

Marci -- you literally just saw me go at least this hard (if nor harder) in that neighborhood game lol

[Lukewarm]

I don’t want to eliminate Val or Luke. They keep thread Alice to an e stent I think town suffers regardless of the flip. I want to see where they push off each other. Bet that might just be me.

^^ My guess for Val's partner by the way

And has been before this post 227

This is also a strange post on top of it. They have already stated that they believe that the me v "

p person

" Val was detrimental to the thread.

Now they think that we should both be kept alive, because it is better for the town to keep us both?

My guess is that the scum team knows that eliming in Me,Val is bad, but also don't think that Val can be the one to move it away.

Setting up the idea that either one of us / both of us would turn on him is strange angle as well

[Lukewarm]

Marci -- you literally just saw me go at least this hard (if nor harder) in that neighborhood game lol

i dont remember it being on d1 tho, i thought it was later on..? am i misremembering

I went pretty hard on that "Everyone should always vote between [Hopkirk,Bingle]" on Day 1.

But I will admit that I went harder on stuff day 2/3

[Lukewarm]

To be clear, I do not think that we should ever pivot to Portia here -- and I would never advocate voting for Portia before a Val flip --

If I am wrong, and Val does somehow flip town, most of my read there would go away -- but once Val flips scum, this is the next place I would look

[Lukewarm]

I wasn’t trying to set up the idea that it would turn on me. That was a phone autocurooredt. It was : but maybe that’s just me. Rather than I bet it’s me. I wa showing to leave that autocorrect be though til you called it.

I see. I will edit my post accordingly

^^ My guess for Val's partner by the way

And has been before this post 227

This is also a strange post on top of it. They have already stated that they believe that the me v "

p person

" Val was detrimental to the thread.

Now they think that we should both be kept alive, because it is better for the town to keep us both?

My guess is that the scum team knows that eliming in Me,Val is bad, but also don't think that Val can be the one to move it away.

Setting up the idea that either one of us / both of us would turn on him is strange angle as well

[Lukewarm]

I mean, look at this wildly unprompted / unnecessary defense of Portia, when Umlaut mentioned having suspicion on Portia, but Umlaut was not even voting him:

Spoiler:

This or Portia look like good wagons to me rn. Neither have given me any reason to think they're town over the course of 8 pages.

I find the offering up of Portia as the second "good wagon" as little strange. Umlaut commented on a huge chunk of the thread in 199, but the only thing I see in reference to Portia are two comments; first that he "like

Portia's intro" and the second that 166 is "way over-the-top reaction from Portia and I don't like it" - something Portia has already acknoldged and appologised for in 166.

There isn't a lot in Portia's iso, but it's enough to just start pinging him as town for me; and that's based on 112, 120, 168-169 and the second part of 196. All of which has gone without comment in Umlaut's 199. It is notable in it's absense.

Umlaut concludes that neither Zyla nor Portia has given him "any reason to think they're town". Can I ask, Umlaut, when you say "I like Portia's intro", do you mean it in a difference sense to 'Portia's intro seems town'?

imo, this was either a partner defense, or a pocket attempt by Val

[Lukewarm]

But the thing that really made it stand out was that that was the ONLY think that Val felt like responding to in all of Umlaut's catch up posts

[Lukewarm]

I'm quite enjoying watching you talk yourself into a hole as if you have any chance you are going to get a Val flip today. "If I am wrong..."

I'm going to enjoy seeing how you desperately try to back pedal and scream how you were simply just shit, tunneled town all along. I can already see you trying to set yourself up for that in posts like 251 and 252 and it's transparent as hell.

Oh no, that is never going to happen

@Everyone -- if I vote for anyone other then Val before the end of Day 1, please take that as a scum claim, and hammer me with impunity

[Lukewarm]

I'm quite enjoying watching you talk yourself into a hole as if you have any chance you are going to get a Val flip today. "If I am wrong..."

I'm going to enjoy seeing how you desperately try to back pedal and scream how you were simply just shit, tunneled town all along. I can already see you trying to set yourself up for that in posts like 251 and 252 and it's transparent as hell.

This is also a very scummy post in and of itself.

The, "if I am wrong" is in regards to my associative read on Portia.

I think that there is a sizable chance that I am the night kill tonight, so I do think that it is prudent to let people know that my scum read on Portia is an associative one, and how that would adjust based on your flip

[Lukewarm]

Val is not even pretending anymore to be trying to sort me.

There for a while, he tried to play the part of "actively trying hard to read everything this game through the lens of "is there an alternative explanation for this, could this slot, while doing some things you think are scummy not actually be scummy." - post 115

But now he is 100% sure that I am scum, is openly saying it, and has nothing to back it up other then the fact that I am pushing him.

[Lukewarm]

but I agree that limming in {Luke, Val} is helpful

But if you limmed Val, and I flipped town, then you

still

wouldn't feel comfortable flipping Luke? How it is helpful in sorting the other slot, then?

It would still be helpful in sorting other slots -- because it is the thing that most people have commented on

For example Porita:

Your flip says a lot about their alignment

A scum flip implicates them as possibly being your partner.

But, if there is some wild world where we are tvt, Portia recommending we should not elim either one of us is enough to town lock them from my pov

[Lukewarm]

lmao

[Lukewarm]

I am sure that Val is going to try and spin this as me trying to back out of my push on him, so I want to make it clear that that is not the case

Spoiler: To Preface:

I do not want to back out. I still think that Val is scum, I still think that Val is by far the best elim for the day, and I still think that if we are not shooting val today, I am probably the second best choice, and I still want people to join me on the Val wagon, and I still think that everyone should treat me voting anyone other then Val as a scum claim.

--------

All of that being said, I am actually starting to feel bad. T.T

I feel like I am going too hard for the newbie queue and think that this should probably be my last game in this queue for a while :/

I am like 99% sure that Val is scum here, but I am going to try (emphasis on try) to not go so hard anymore, because I don't want to be the reason that someone does not want to keep playing on site.

I think I am going to try and force myself to let the thread breath by limiting myself to like ~3 posts per irl day, until the last 36 hours of the dead line at which point I will go back into "whip up the votes against Val" mode

-----------------

@Val, I am sorry if I made this game unfun for you, I am just really, really sure you are scum


Please consider this:

Post 1/3 for 7/9/21

[Lukewarm]

I will once again say, that Val has completely ignored the part that moved it from a scum lean to a scum read: He is very, very clearly, not genuinely trying to sort me at this point:

The thing, the one thing, that I have repeatedly said that he never engaged with, was this section of 107 / 102 :

Spoiler:

I find it difficult to believe that the argument he made in post 99 was genuine.

Val has made is clear that they are not currently scum reading Not_Mafia,

which would mean that his theory is as follows:

• **Scum!me saw Val make post 25 where he voted for Not_Mafia, who is not my partner -- and in response, I voted Val (for some reason)
  
  **Then, Val accused me of being scum partners with Not_Mafia AND he says that we should elim Not_Mafia first -- and in response, I became defensive and needed to "lay the narrative that he was scum early" (for some reason)

Instead of, I don't know, being overjoyed? Like, that is the dream scenario for Scum!Me. --- I get linked to a town player, we flip that town player, which subconsciously makes people inclined to believe I am town, and overtly, the argument that "I was defending my partner Not_Mafia" instantly goes away. So why would I ever start pushing him there, instead of just planning to blame him for a Not_Mafia elim tomorrow?

He stated that he was leaning my action to be more likely to be scum, and the stated reasons were nonsensical.
I pointed that out, and he never revisited that read on me. ---- He was not genuinely trying to read me.

I made it clear that that was the issue at hand in: 102, 104, 107, 108, 130, 214, 216, 221, 230

And despite me repeatedly saying that that is my biggest issue, and repeatedly asking him to address it. He didn't in 299, where it feels like he instead focused on the parts of the case that he felt he could defend against.

I mean, he is supposedly trying to read me, and I repeatedly asked him about that read / pointed out the inconsistencies, and instead of talking about it, or adjusting his read, he settled into just "Luke is obviously scum here" angle. This is not the posting of someone who is genuinely trying to sort me ::

Hope your scumbuddy isn't giving you too much crap in the PT right now

while you are doing a grand old job of basically bussing yourself here.

I'm not sure why any mafia thinks they can...

Give over, there is zero chance are TvT. You've basically claimed scum at this point,

And again, so far his stated reasons for scum reading me are:
~those points that I found logically inconsistent, which he has still never tried to touch back on
~the fact that I am pushing him

To respond to 301 --- that was where it became overtly clear that he was not, and had no intent on, engaging with the inconsistencies of his scum read on me

Post 2/3 for 7/9/21

[Lukewarm]

And I've said, repeatedly, that I am not sure how you expect me to engage with it when it is clearly non-sensesial, because it's based on a false premise.

My point was that your scum lean (at the time) as stated, does not make sense.

My expectation was that you would then explain your scum lean in a way that made sense (or adjust your read) --- You never did.

So far, the only reasons I have seen you give for you scum read on me, were that paragraph in 99 (which is the one that does not make sense). And then the fact that I am pushing you -- and that was enough for you to have me lock scum in your eyes? I don't buy that.

--------------

You are not trying to bring in some meta (but you had me locked scum before any meta was introduced -- see 288.

To address that meta:

Spoiler: You said that hyper posting is only in my scum game

(305)

Yes, I am posting a lot (I am actually trying to reign it in with my arbitrary posting limit). But it is silly to say that I don't do that as town:

• ---Newbie 2065 (with Zyla and Pav) I was a mason. I had 145 posts in the main thread and 48 posts in the mason chat.
  Giving me a
  grand total of 203 posts
  .
  Second place was The Bulge,
  with 60 posts
  (I was similarly confident in my scum reads that game)

Spoiler: You claimed that my push on you was "self evidently" more similar to my scum play

is it more likely that we are seeing play closer to the scum!Luke D1 of this game - make an early case on an townie on very little (starting as early as post 73 in that case), then 'townlead' and ride that case all the way to the D1 mislim on force of personality? I think the answer is self-evident.

This one is just silly. My push on you this game has zero resemblance to my "push" on Strangematter that game, where I actively tried to distance myself from the elim, because I did not want it pinned on me

Me in the Mafia chat talking about how I did not want the day 1 miselim tied to me:

Okay - this is what I settled on. Backing off of Strange. Showing self doubt / doubt in my reads is a decent look for town / plus now it would make more sense for me to take a bit more of a back seat in the next push.

Me backing off of the push in the Main thread:

....

UNVOTE:

If this is strange's response to being put at e-1, it just doesn't feel like they have a partner?

Like I think that any one in this lobby as Strange's partner would have helped them come up with an angle to push

Maybe everyone I thought was scum before is actually town :/

If anything, this is much closer to the sheer confidence I had in my town game with Zyla, where I hard accused T3 of being scum on Page 2 of the thread, and then pushed him until he flipped (he was scum btw)

Post 3/3 for 7/9/21

With that, I am tapped out! See you guys tomorrow

[Lukewarm]

I'm.. not really liking the self imposed post limits here. Like don't post more than you want to, but not posting because of an arbitrary limit you set?

It is mostly lack of impulse control tbh -- and with this post, Zyla has bought herself 1 extra post from me today

(Also, Val has finally responded to the thing I have been trying to get him to respond to for the longest time, but shhhhh)

---------------

Val "appears" to misunderstand what I am talking about in regards to post 99 -- as evident from post 321 His counter, is that "I can't be seriously accusing you of being scum partners with someone I'm not scum reading" -- which missed my entire point... I am not arguing that he was.

In post 99 HE said, that scum!me thought as much (I have added page breaks to the following quote to make it easier to read)

my initial thoughts are that it leans scummy.

The first post that Lukewarm indicates they had a perspective switch from "Val isn't serious" to "I should take Val at face value" is post 33, where I imply that I think Lukewarm might be Not_mafia's scum buddy.

That to me says Lukewarm is over-the-top sensitive to any suggestion early game they might be scum.
{snip}
then they want to start laying the narrative that it might be coming from scum early.

He said that he thought my actions might be scummy because:
1) I was taking his posts seriously
2) I was overly sensitive to being shaded
3) Was reacting to the suggestion that the scum team was me+Not_Mafia
4) Felt like I needed to start pushing a scum case against him to counter act that suggestion.

My entire point was, and is, that the scum motivation behind this take is nonsense. If I am scum, why would I ever need to start discrediting him there? Quite simply, there is no reason to.

If anything, scum!me would have wanted him to continue pushing that narrative, hopefully let him lead a miselim on Not_Mafia, and then blame him for it. (or alternatively, if I ever died and flipped scum, then this narrative might flip Not_Mafia the next day)
[[AGAIN, I am not claiming that Val would have done this. I am saying that Val's scum case on me, would indicate that this was where I was at at the time]]

My question to Val is, and has been:
Why would you expect scum!luke to behave the way you outlined in post 99? Why would I need to discredit you there? Why would I continue on that push once you explicitly said that "Not_Mafia is at E-2, we should just go ahead and make him the lim for the day rather than piviot to Lukewarm," ?

He has still failed to engage with that, or reconcile his scum read on me.

Post

4

/3 for 7/9/21

[Lukewarm]

So your are still saying that scum!Luke must have seen you suggest the scum team was Not_Mafia + Luke, and then saw you say that we should flip Not_Mafia first --

and I was scared that could potentially lead to me or my partner dying? So I needed to keep discrediting you?

(again, Not_Mafia is not my partner in the presented scenario)

That is the very inconsistency I am pointing towards. Thanks for helping me make that clear

[Lukewarm]

So your are still saying that scum!Luke must have seen you suggest the scum team was Not_Mafia + Luke, and then saw you say that we should flip Not_Mafia first --

and I was scared that could potentially lead to me or my partner dying? So I needed to keep discrediting you?

(again, Not_Mafia is not my partner in the presented scenario)

No. I am saying you saw me suggest the scum team was Not_Mafia + Luke, and that in the process of reading me and discussing my bullshit claim that other town players were going to at least consider the possibility of scum!Luke + scum!Not_mafia, and the same individually, if even for a second, if even just long enough to go "LOL, what bullshit", and reactively, scum!Luke, or any scum player might see "scum + their name" and have a 'uh uh, better stamp on that' reaction.

There is no need for Not_Mafia, or anyone else for that matter, to be scum or not scum, and for my read on that slot to be serious or non-serious, for the general prncible that

a scum player might not want any sort of adverse attention on thier slot

to hold. It's not that difficult to understand. That's exactly what the sentence you 100%

deliberately

ommited from my 99 says, and you know it. Town can afford an early mislim or two, even if it hurts their game, not so with scum.

And I am saying that that is nonsense. I would never be upset by a Not_Mafia+Luke scum team accusation, that came on page 2, with nothing to back it up then an accusation that I was "defending my scum buddy," unless that was the the exact right team -- and I am pretty sure that is true for basically any scum player. I personally doubt I would have cared, even if it was the exact right combo.

Once you pulled away the not_mafia scum read, it makes no sense to think that it was scummy for me to step in there, or for me to stamp all over the person that appeared to want a Not_Mafia flip. (at the time)

-----

I would point everyone to my scum game: Newbie 2067

Hockey scum read me, and my response was to HARD town read him, and HARD defend him when he reached e-1 -- which very successfully pocketed him

[Lukewarm]

I would point everyone to my scum game: Newbie 2067

Hockey scum read me, and my response was to HARD town read him, and HARD defend him when he reached e-1 -- which very successfully pocketed him

Are you really trying to say "Look, I can;t be scum because I'm not playing exactly as I did in my last scum game"?

When I've brought your games, I've done so pointing out where I think the similarities are closer to how you played that scum game than how you played your town games - not that you are playing a repeat of it. The important part to me is how you pushed StrangeMatter, not how you interacted with Hockey.

You are accusing me of being jumpy / overly sensitive to someone scum reading me day 1, and I am showing evidence that I am not jumpy / overly sensitive to someone scum reading me day 1...

Again, I will say that I don't believe this is anything like my push on Strangematter, so it is weird for you to mention it again, with out at least responding to that / further explaining how it is similar despite:

Spoiler: You claimed that my push on you was "self evidently" more similar to my scum play

is it more likely that we are seeing play closer to the scum!Luke D1 of this game - make an early case on an townie on very little (starting as early as post 73 in that case), then 'townlead' and ride that case all the way to the D1 mislim on force of personality? I think the answer is self-evident.

This one is just silly. My push on you this game has zero resemblance to my "push" on Strangematter that game, where I actively tried to distance myself from the elim, because I did not want it pinned on me

Me in the Mafia chat talking about how I did not want the day 1 miselim tied to me:

Okay - this is what I settled on. Backing off of Strange. Showing self doubt / doubt in my reads is a decent look for town / plus now it would make more sense for me to take a bit more of a back seat in the next push.

Me backing off of the push in the Main thread:

....

UNVOTE:

If this is strange's response to being put at e-1, it just doesn't feel like they have a partner?

Like I think that any one in this lobby as Strange's partner would have helped them come up with an angle to push

Maybe everyone I thought was scum before is actually town :/

If anything, this is much closer to the sheer confidence I had in my town game with Zyla, where I hard accused T3 of being scum on Page 2 of the thread, and then pushed him until he flipped (he was scum btw)

[Lukewarm]

^^Nice, a scum claim

hows voting you a scumclaim from val o-o

It supports the leading reason why I am scum reading him right now -- But I am actively avoiding digging back into scum casing Val for a couple days

Since something made you change your mind and come back to it 3 hours later with a massive wallpost; do you think you might want to explain this? Seems weird you would go to all the effort of writing something as detailed, but ultimately devoid of content, as 214 without answering the simple question Marci asked; particulary if you truely beleive I had "scum claimed".

Self-imposed post limits out the window, and still no answer to this. You would think explaining "the main reason you are scum reading" someone you are actively pushing for elimination would be important, if you gueninely thought they had "scum claimed", no?

The main reason I was scum reading you is that you're read on me does not seem genuine, and you do not appear to be looking at information that contradicts your read and - adjusting your read accordingly or reconciling your read with the new information, and explaining how it still makes sense

i.e. you are not actually trying to figure out the alignment of my slot (and that was at a time, when you were still claiming to be unsure of my alignment) -- You yes, you voting there, without addressing the points against your read, further supported that you were not actually working on that read.

[Lukewarm]

@Val, can you provide a full reads list?

[Lukewarm]

@Val, can you provide a full reads list?

No. And if you or anyone else doesn't like that; vote me for it.

There is scum on open display, and 200-odd posts to sort it.

I mean, even if you are convinced I am scum, isn't there another scum player for you to find?

Don't you still need to be sorting the rest of the player list?

Spoiler:

Or are you not actually scum hunting this game

[Lukewarm]

I directed it at you, because I realized I could not think of the reads you had other then the one on me.

I admit, I may have missed some, but thought getting a read list from you would be faster then digging in your iso for it. Did not realized you would be overtly opposed to giving a read list

Off the top of my head, Zyla, Marci, Umlaut, and myself have all given full read lists.

[Lukewarm]

Currently at:

Altro, Pav
Umlaut
Not_Mafia, Marci, Zyla
Portia
Val

@Pav, my reads currently have not moved much from this. Zyla is sitting in Null for me. Maybe a full iso on her could change that, and I can do that if you want me to

I am actually growing a bit more suspicious of Not_Mafia as time moves on, because I am used to a bit more from him. Like, I know that he is not the active poster, but I think I am used to seeing more then this

I asked Val for a read list, because I thought it would help both of us talk about other things -- am surprised by his response (from either alignment tbh)

[Lukewarm]

@Pav, I just did an iso on Zyla, and I would say that I am on a weak town lean there

I liked the way she did her iso read list -- it gave lots of things for people to latch on to / respond to. I think she put in a lot of work to try and pull the thread back into productive conversations -- I think it is probably my/val's fault that she did not spark several conversations all at once there.

Particularly liked the reach out to Not_Mafia

Although, I kinda disliked the Matci post. I feel like there should have been //something// there to respond to.

But over all, I liked it

[Lukewarm]

Just did an iso on Umlaut, and I am still leaning town there as well.

I found myself agreeing with most of the things he said, such as his takes on Zyla and Portia in 201

His read on you in 203

Liked his response to Val, in post 212

317 is good advice, and one that he would not be expected to give even if scum

[Lukewarm]

I have a strange paranoia towards marci, but if I put that away, I have a town lean there as well

So, I think I am now at

Umlaut, Pav

Alstro, Marci

Zyla
Not_Mafia

Portia

Val

[Lukewarm]

317 is good advice, and one that he would not be expected to give even if scum

NM would make a good cop target assuming we have one.

Hard disagree. I almost commented on this earlier, but I don't know how to approach explaining it at this stage.

I think this is pretty damn scummy, but I don't really want to go into how until there's a few claims on the table; and I don't think now is a good time for that.

Remind me to circle back to it.

I am pretty sure that you can talk about a "hypothetical cop" without it revealing anything

It is my understanding that NM is a very hard player to sort (and a cop on him would deal with this).

Also, from my experience, when town!NM says "This is scum" he is right more often then not - so, not having to second guess any pushes he decides to make seem ++town from my PoV

So, I think that this is good advice coming from Umlaut

I also think that scum!Umlaut might avoid giving this advice, because he would expect to be able to push out town!NM as a miselim, and would not want a cop inno to stop that from occurring

[Lukewarm]

Can you please explain why you think that a cop investigate on Not_Mafia would be a bad play?


Can you also explain why scum!Umlaut, would want a cop inno on Not_Mafia?

[Lukewarm]

You think, me and/or Umlaut saying: "If we have a cop, they should consider targeting Not_Mafia" is fishing?

Also, you appear to think that copping Not_Mafia is bad, but do not want to explain why until after out hypothetical cop would have to decide if they wanted to target him or not Night??

I cannot think any reason to be against it, even if I try to consider any/all set up combinations we could be in

Spoiler:

Except, and sorry to say this will probably look like I am conf. biasing here, you are scum, and either 1)NM is your partner or 2) you want to be able to miselim NM later.

[Lukewarm]

So, I think I am now at

Umlaut, Pav

Alstro, Marci

Zyla
Not_Mafia

Portia

Val

luke

, what makes umlaut more townie than pavowski/alstro?

I do not have him higher then Pav. If they are on the same line, they are the same level atm

Alstro is generally townie, but his shift to Portia seemed odd, because from what I can see in his iso, that read was pretty dependent on Val's flip - so he is just a little lower because I am unsure why he when there.

Why do you ask? Do you have Umlaut lower? Alstro higher?

[Lukewarm]

I've said I will come back to it at the appropriate time, and I will do so. I don't see how a town player doesn't realise this line of question is either straight-up PR fishing, or least how it can appear so...

Because he posted in a way that would have earned a response from anyone, much less the actual cop?

Just stated: here is my opinion on who is a good target.

And that was it

I think that is very much in the realm of "Not Role Fishing" and if anything, is in the realm of "SEs giving pointers to potential newbie PRs"

[Lukewarm]

Alstro is generally townie, but his shift to Portia seemed odd, because from what I can see in his iso, that read was pretty dependent on Val's flip - so he is just a little lower because I am unsure why he when there.

I haven't really liked Portia as early as 231 due to just generally being vague/unhelpful.

I see. This is what made it seem weird to see you move from Val -> Portia

I think Val being town makes you and Portia a little more likely to be town

If you started thinking Val might be town, that seemed to imply that you might think Poria started to seem more town as well.

If you still think that Val is scum, then I am surprised you moved away.

Left me with confusion

[Lukewarm]

Hey, maybe we will get a read list out of Val anyways -- just one read at a time

[Lukewarm]

Hey, maybe we will get a read list out of Val anyways -- just one read at a time

This is not supposed to be a sarcastic jab at you, but a light hearted joke btw

[Lukewarm]

So far, I have found him to have

Portia and Pav as town

Zyla and Marci and Alstro Null <-and I am assuming Not_Mafia, as well, although I did not see it explicitly stated

Me and Umlaut as scummy

[Lukewarm]

I just read Val's day 1 iso from his completed game, and (inb4 confirmation bias accusations), but I feel like there are very clear differences.

~First of all, just reading the progression of his scum read on JamesTheNames compared to the progression of his scum read on me, the scum read in that game just looks way more genuine.

~I also thought there is a clear difference in his tone wrt his scum read on James - Specifically, compared to the tone he has taken in posts such as 236, 244, 288 --- both in the sheer certainty, as well as the almost taunting tone

~I also noticed that Val was actively trying to keep the thread updated with his read on every single slot in the game. Starting with a full read list, as early as his 11th post in his ISO, which he then touched back on, and updated through out the day, noting people who had changed and then dropping another full read list a bit later on -- which, by comparison, makes this stand out more to me, coming as his 61st post this game

@Val, can you provide a full reads list?

No. And if you or anyone else doesn't like that; vote me for it.

There is scum on open display, and 200-odd posts to sort it.

I mean, feel free to ignore any and all evidence that I present, because everyone assumes I am just "so tunneled" - but, still thought I would share the things that stood out to me :/

[Lukewarm]

what Luke did in 324 in order to make my case.

There is just no world in which even the most deeply tunneled townie makes a concious decision to quote a post of mine and snip out the part that answers the question he then poses after quoting it. Make no mistake - it was a concious decision. The answer was in the same paragraph as what was quoted; you have to read it in order to select it, in order to remove it from the quote.

This is silly. My entire point was that his stated reasoning made no sense. NOT that he did not state a reason to begin with.

In 324, I set up the situation that he presented, then explained that in that situation, I would have no reason to need to discredit him.

My entire point was, and is, that the scum motivation behind this take is nonsense

So I walked though the scenario he presented, explained why there is no reason for scum!me, or scum!anyone, to be worried, and if anything, I would have wanted him to continue pushing that narrative.

Val is acting like my point was to say "Gotcha! You forgot to list a reason" -- When my point was, "In this scenario, scum!me would have acted the opposite of what you are saying, and here is why"

Val is now falling back to "well, in post 99, scum!Luke was scared that, if he did not start discrediting me, that one member of the scum team might be eliminated day 1"

I still do not think that Val has provided any new logic or explanation for WHY scum!me would be worried about that, when Val suggested that the scum team was Luke+NotMafia -- and then stated that we should flip NotMafia first

[Lukewarm]

Remind me again (briefly!) why you think my read in this game isn't genuine, again?

Because you've refused to engage with any information that might lead you to change your read ; or at the very least, reconsider the logic behind it, and see if there was in fact new logic that could continue to support that read.

Val is acting like my point was to say "Gotcha! You forgot to list a reason" -- When my point was, "In this scenario, scum!me would have acted the opposite of what you are saying, and here is why"

^^ This is where it does not feel genuine. When I am talking about your read on me, every time, you responded (even early on) only in ways to defend yourself and/or to discredit me, instead of engaging with the information and determining if your read really did make sense or not.

This is where it looked like, your goal in this game is to survive, and your goal is not to actually sort me

[Lukewarm]

And of course you immeadatly pop up to spam the thread with some more obvious bullshit.

I logged on, and made 1 post, and you are already at this?

[Lukewarm]

I am engaging with the information! You are telling me that Scum!you would have been overjoyed to have been paired with your scum buddy D1, even if it was accidental????

I thought you stopped saying that Not_Mafia was my scum buddy?

If exactly Not_Mafia was my partner, then maybe there is scum motivation.

If you did not think that Not_Mafia was scummy, then there is not one.

I addressed this.

[Lukewarm]

Luke, it's a fair question. Why snip out that one part of that one sentence?

Mainly because his paragraph, as written, was dense and hard to read.

He spent like 5 lines in that paragraph to say "and scum luke would be worried that either he, or his partner would get eliminated from this" I feel like that was still evident in what I posted -- if it wasn't, my bad I guess

My point was that there was no reason for me to be worried about getting eliminated when he was suggesting we flip Not_Mafia first (and, in this theory, Not_Mafia was no longer my partner from his PoV)

[Lukewarm]

I am engaging with the information! You are telling me that Scum!you would have been overjoyed to have been paired with your scum buddy D1, even if it was accidental????

I could have suggested you were scum with ArcAngel and there would have be reason for scum you to be upset by that!

There is a distinct difference between someone making a suggestion that a scum player is scum with their actual partner
and someone making a suggestion that a scum playing is scum with someone who is not their partner.

I post 393 to be further evidence that he has not really stop and engaged with the idea that scum!me would not be upset if you paired me with a townie ----
Like, this is the entire thing I have been trying to talk about respect to his read.

At this point, Val appears to be flailing. Checking out of the thread for a bit

[Lukewarm]

Open question for the thread, before I leave my house and will be away from my computer for several hours

Does Val's last 6 posts sound more like:

Scum frustration that a townie is pushing them for what they think is a bullshit reason (caught for the wrong reason)

A Townie, mad that their scumread is disagreeing with their scumcase on them, because, like....

[Lukewarm]

Not to be the "answering questions directed at other people guy," but I know Not_Mafia is a member of the "dislikes wall posts" crowd, and I have made a lot of them

@Not_Mafia, do you actually think I am scum, or are you just not liking my posting habits

[Lukewarm]

Just like, self reflecting on this game, and I am coming to the conclusion that my biggest flaw in my town-game is lacking in the ability to explain my scum reads in a digestible / convincing way, and it has been a recurring theme.

Spoiler: Open 812

I was CONVINCED that Unwnd was scum, and I tried repeatedly to make the case for it to Ffery, who was an IC that game, but I just could not explain it in a way that convinced her. I eventually gave up, and we lost that game in Elo to scum Unwnd

I lost this game because I could not convince ffery that Unwnd was scum

Spoiler: Micro 1010

I made this whole case on what scum!Bingle was doing day 1, basically he tanked himself / purposefully got himself eliminated to save his partner. At first, I thought he saved Hopkirk (and was really loud about it). I later realized that he had actually saved 2 people that day: Hoplrk and Vanders.

So I made a big deal that the last scum was inside [hopkirk, vanders], and said repeatedly that we just needed to kill both of them to win... but I could not convince anyone. Vanders killed me the night before elo, and then town lost that game by voting Guilty Lion

Bingle later came back and confirmed that I was right in my analysis of what he was doing

I lost this game because I could not convince people that I had figured out what Bingle was doing

Spoiler: Newbie 2065

Most people got on board for T3, but mainly because he had a TERRIBLE reaction to me accusing him. I tried pretty hard to lead the thread to a Zyla elim, and that was like pulling teeth.

I had just lead the town to a Day 1 scum elim, but no one wanted to follow me on Zyla day 2. (Except my mason partner, all he wanted to do all game was sheep my reads lmao)

But like no one else seemed particularly convinced by my points, and instead like the whole lobby went the other way, and ran Egix up to E-1. Hell, even Egix was like "nah, Zyla is just town here." I could not convince anyone. It was not until Egix himself acted really townie right before his hammer, that people finally decided to go with Zyla.

I think I am generally pretty good at getting near universally town read.
I feel like my reads are generally better then average.
But then, despite being town read, I feel like it is a STRUGGLE to get people to see what I see

And it is honestly pretty frustrating.

That is the motivation behind those posts I made before btw. The ones that people said was me "begging for votes" --245 / 250 -- it is more like just the frustration of apparently being so unable to convince people in several of my games. And in this game, it was even more so. In the other games, I was mostly playing with people who had never played with me before, but then, in this one its like, half this lobby should have had a decent impression of my scum hunting, but even then... nope.

I am still very, very sure that Val is scum. But I am tired of trying to convince people of it. My vote will be there til the end of the day, and even then will only move if it is needed to avoid a no elim for the day.

Spoiler:

I get the feeling that maybe I should just take a page out of Not_Mafia's standard town play, and not actually scum case people. Just point that the scummiest person in the room and say "_____ is scum" and drop a vote. From what I have seen, that is more likely to get people to take heed then what ever it is I have been doing in my games. :/

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

Your style is a double edged sword. You make good arguments, sometimes excellent arguments, and I usually have a hard time disagreeing with much of what you post or how you read people. And I do *tend* to read you as town. But -- and maybe this is because I was on the receiving end of one of your pushes last game when I knew it was wrong -- I know you can use those arguments and reads as scum framing a townie just as well as you can as a townie reading scum. So while I find your reads insightful and maybe even correct, I take them with a hefty dose of salt; probably more salt than I take other players'.

tl;dr -- I think you're an excellent player, and that's why I will never fully trust you unless you're confirmed.

Spoiler: Side Conversation with Pav

Okay, but in that case, shouldn't that, at the very least, make you think that me v Val has a decent chance of being TvS and not TvT? Either, I am town and making a real argument against my strongest scum read, OR I am scum making a push like I did on you?

Because, from what I have seen, you still appear to think it is TvT

I think in short both players are making a case they honestly believe to be true about the other.

[Lukewarm]

Why is Zyla getting wagoned?

From my PoV -- because I have scared people off from trying to sort either me or Val

I am not sure why that ended up with Zyla, instead of one of the other slots tho. The only thing I have seen is "she has been coasting" or "she hasn't done anything townie"

But, like, 259-297 in her iso is both non-coasty and somewhat townie imo

[Lukewarm]

I have scared people off from trying to sort either me or Val

Sounds like a good outcome for scum-you

I guess so, although I think that it is clear that I am still encouraging people to come back to sorting that. See 434

[Lukewarm]

Actually, thinking on it more, I don't know that I agree.

If anything, I think I am pretty obviously town in that 1v1 (whether you agree with my case on Val or not) -- so I think it is probably better for me, as either alignment, for people to sift through it.

[Lukewarm]

@Val, I am purposefully avoiding entering into a 1v1 with you again. Plus, I have already basically answered that question.

Once you said "I think that the scum team is _____ + Luke, and that we should kill ______ first"

As long as it is not exactly my partner, that is a good thing, and I have no reason to scum read you to discredit you there.

I would have either:
~ignored you, and hoped you kept pushing it to a miselim on Not_Mafia for on your own
~further defended Not_Mafia to re-instill it the idea that we could be partners
~possibly town read you in an attempt to pocket you.

That is why your case in 99 did not make sense. You set up a scenario that could possibly have been the basis of an associative read between me and Not_Mafia, but then preambled it by saying that you were not scum reading Not_Mafia, but thought that I was independently scummy.

[Lukewarm]

@Marci

My thoughts on Zyla

@Pav, I just did an iso on Zyla, and I would say that I am on a weak town lean there

I liked the way she did her iso read list -- it gave lots of things for people to latch on to / respond to. I think she put in a lot of work to try and pull the thread back into productive conversations -- I think it is probably my/val's fault that she did not spark several conversations all at once there.

Particularly liked the reach out to Not_Mafia

Although, I kinda disliked the Matci post. I feel like there should have been //something// there to respond to.

But over all, I liked it

I do not have her as high as my proper town reads, but that is enough to have her higher then Val, Portia, Not_Mafia

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

Your style is a double edged sword. You make good arguments, sometimes excellent arguments, and I usually have a hard time disagreeing with much of what you post or how you read people. And I do *tend* to read you as town. But -- and maybe this is because I was on the receiving end of one of your pushes last game when I knew it was wrong -- I know you can use those arguments and reads as scum framing a townie just as well as you can as a townie reading scum. So while I find your reads insightful and maybe even correct, I take them with a hefty dose of salt; probably more salt than I take other players'.

tl;dr -- I think you're an excellent player, and that's why I will never fully trust you unless you're confirmed.

Spoiler: Side Conversation with Pav

Okay, but in that case, shouldn't that, at the very least, make you think that me v Val has a decent chance of being TvS and not TvT? Either, I am town and making a real argument against my strongest scum read, OR I am scum making a push like I did on you?

Because, from what I have seen, you still appear to think it is TvT

I think in short both players are making a case they honestly believe to be true about the other.

Spoiler:

Of course there's a chance, and I'll grant it's greater than a slight chance, but at the moment I am more convinced it's TvT.

Spoiler:

From what I can see, this is the reason you think it is TvT:

I don't think scum is going to lean *that* hard into a miselim on d1.

And, I would say that while this might apply to me, I do not know that it actually applies to Val.

I would describe his play, less as "leaning into a miselim" and more "needing to present me as scum, to stop my push on him"

Compare the VERY distinctive tone shift starting immediately after I made 214

Spoiler: Val's tone before post 214

My 99 was simply pointing out something that pinged me as scummy, but I entered into this conversation believing with further exploration it may well turn out to be NAI or even perhaps town motivated.

While Lukewarm appears to have taken my post 99 as saying "I read Lukewarm as scum", I'm not all the way there yet.

Whilst I think Lukewarm has started to ping me scummy, I am not throwing my vote down on them and calling them a scumread until I have more reason to do so, in an attempt to avoid another Val v JamesTheNames situation.

I will point out that, while I am definitely getting some scumpings from Lukes slot since then, I don't think it's anything to vote over just yet

VOTE: Lukewarm
{snip}
It's not a strong lean, but it's good enough for a early-D1 first serious vote.

Spoiler: Val's tone after 214

No offense, but I know your case is bullshit, and I think it's fairly obviously bullshit and will be seen as such by the other players

Hope your scumbuddy isn't giving you too much crap in the PT right now

you are doing a grand old job of basically bussing yourself here.

@Pav

If you do have other reasons to think he is town, can you town case him for me?

[Lukewarm]

Val, there is a difference between "purposefully avoiding entering into a

new

1v1 with you" and hoping people will look back at our earlier 1v1.

I think that continuing to have a back and forth with you is purposeless at this point, but I do wish people would look back at what has already happened and actually try to sort through it (instead of just accepting that it must be tvt, and ignoring it all).

Also, if other people have questions for me in regards to it, I am happy to answer them. I just think that responding to everything you say will do nothing but clog the thread up again.

[Lukewarm]

Resisting. Urge. To. 1v1.

I am avoiding answering Val's questions at this point because:

1) He is scum, so I do not think that he is asking questions in good faith
2) He is asking questions that I have already answered multiple times in thread.

------------

If anyone else sees something that Val posts that leaves you wanting an answer from me, feel free to ask me that question yourself.

I am not trying to avoid a discussion of why Val is scummy, but I don't think it makes sense for me to continue having that conversation with Val. I am more then happy to answer questions from other slots.

------------

(Also, looking at the questions Val is asking, I think that he misunderstands the strongest reasons I am scum reading him at this point anyways)

[Lukewarm]

@Pav

please don't miss this

Spoiler:

Your style is a double edged sword. You make good arguments, sometimes excellent arguments, and I usually have a hard time disagreeing with much of what you post or how you read people. And I do *tend* to read you as town. But -- and maybe this is because I was on the receiving end of one of your pushes last game when I knew it was wrong -- I know you can use those arguments and reads as scum framing a townie just as well as you can as a townie reading scum. So while I find your reads insightful and maybe even correct, I take them with a hefty dose of salt; probably more salt than I take other players'.

tl;dr -- I think you're an excellent player, and that's why I will never fully trust you unless you're confirmed.

Spoiler: Side Conversation with Pav

Okay, but in that case, shouldn't that, at the very least, make you think that me v Val has a decent chance of being TvS and not TvT? Either, I am town and making a real argument against my strongest scum read, OR I am scum making a push like I did on you?

Because, from what I have seen, you still appear to think it is TvT

I think in short both players are making a case they honestly believe to be true about the other.

Spoiler:

Of course there's a chance, and I'll grant it's greater than a slight chance, but at the moment I am more convinced it's TvT.

Spoiler:

From what I can see, this is the reason you think it is TvT:

I don't think scum is going to lean *that* hard into a miselim on d1.

And, I would say that while this might apply to me, I do not know that it actually applies to Val.

I would describe his play, less as "leaning into a miselim" and more "needing to present me as scum, to stop my push on him"

Compare the VERY distinctive tone shift starting immediately after I made 214

Spoiler: Val's tone before post 214

My 99 was simply pointing out something that pinged me as scummy, but I entered into this conversation believing with further exploration it may well turn out to be NAI or even perhaps town motivated.

While Lukewarm appears to have taken my post 99 as saying "I read Lukewarm as scum", I'm not all the way there yet.

Whilst I think Lukewarm has started to ping me scummy, I am not throwing my vote down on them and calling them a scumread until I have more reason to do so, in an attempt to avoid another Val v JamesTheNames situation.

I will point out that, while I am definitely getting some scumpings from Lukes slot since then, I don't think it's anything to vote over just yet

VOTE: Lukewarm
{snip}
It's not a strong lean, but it's good enough for a early-D1 first serious vote.

Spoiler: Val's tone after 214

No offense, but I know your case is bullshit, and I think it's fairly obviously bullshit and will be seen as such by the other players

Hope your scumbuddy isn't giving you too much crap in the PT right now

you are doing a grand old job of basically bussing yourself here.

@Pav

If you do have other reasons to think he is town, can you town case him for me?

[Lukewarm]

Just as an aside, Not_Mafia has become my top guess for Val's partner, over Portia at this point.

I think it explains why Val has taken such great pains to make it clear that he was not making an associative read between me and Not_Mafia, and that it was a read on me specifically.

I also have found it interesting that not once, in all of this back and forth where I have said that it would not make sense that I would act this way if Not_Mafia was not my partner, Val has not even hinted at the some what obvious counter "well maybe Not_Mafia just is your partner after all"

It would also explain the point that Zyla made earlier in post 126

--------

As for Not_Mafia himself, I am used to Not_Mafia being in the lower half of posters, but he has been particularly absent this game

I would also say that 436 seems somewhat out of character - like the way he approached it.

If everyone refuses to deal with the Me v Val issue, that is an elim I would no longer object to.

[Lukewarm]

I am much more used to you being more... I am struggling to find the right way to express it. But, I guess, less specific? -- Also more direct. And you also seem to address your scum reads at the rest of the lobby, not the person you are scum reading.

I really should probably look at your past scum games though, because even though we have like 4+ games together, I have never seen your scum game.

I would say that the read on you is at least 50%, if not more, associative stuff coming from Val.

--------------------------

Maybe I can grab stuff from past games to try and show what I mean.

Actually every single time Not_Mafia mentioned Drap in Open 810, before Drap was the Day 1 Elim

Spoiler:

Leaning Bingle here

VOTE: Bingle

Norwee let’s call a truce for this game and vote Bingle with me

Bingle getting desperate

Hopkirk vote Bingle

marci vote Bingle with us

Lukewarm vote Bingle

Actually every single time Not_Mafia mentioned Bingle in Micro 1010, before Bingle was the Day 1 Elim

Spoiler:

Drapion is scum though, I've read the first 2 pages

Drapion is scum though, I've read the first 2 pages

eh i think gypx is way more scum than drap. drap has been very solvy on finding mafia wit a town mindset imo. the interation wit them and gypx just made gypx look worse. they also had good reactions against luke. i might be biased tho

^ Drapion's partner

Although I will say it’s great to have NM playing, he’s funny and I like him!

Thanks, I like you too. It's a shame that you're scum.

Bingle, wouldn't it be so random if you just like, voted Drapion right now?

That would be like so crazy and cool

VOTE: Prof. Drapion

VOTE: Prof. Drapion

252+ Atk Choice Band Miltank Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Drapion: 282-332 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-----------

I don't know, just comparing that to

I have scared people off from trying to sort either me or Val

Sounds like a good outcome for scum-you

It

feels

different to me

[Lukewarm]

I managed to paste the quotes in to the opposite spoiler boxes. Pretend that was flippled lol

[Lukewarm]

I would say that the read on you is at least 50%, if not more, associative stuff coming from Val.

I am generally against pushing reads based on pre-flip associations, so I am not going to start pushing Not_Mafia here -- I still very much want us to flip Val

This was more of a "I am no longer going to object" if other people want to push there

[Lukewarm]

Not_Mafia -- can you link me to like your two most recent scum games?

[Lukewarm]

Not_Mafia -- can you link me to like your two most recent scum games?

I forget every game the instant it ends

Thanks !

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

This game feels like beating your head against a wall repeatedly.

If this game ends, and the scum team really is exactly [Val + NM/Portia] then I will be accepting apologies from other people post game.

@Pav -- you are currently voting Zyla, and your stated reason being

I think Zyla is coasting. I know she said RL was a factor, but I looked over her ISO -- including the posts she made this morning after checking back in and refreshing -- and I don't see her actually taking a clear position on anybody. Before yesterday, it's much the same.

VOTE: Zyla because I think you're hedging. You said you think Luke/Val is SvT but you're not sure which way. If you think there's scum on one side, you must have an opinion, even if it's only an inkling.

I responded to that here:

@Pav, I just did an iso on Zyla, and I would say that I am on a weak town lean there

I liked the way she did her iso read list -- it gave lots of things for people to latch on to / respond to. I think she put in a lot of work to try and pull the thread back into productive conversations -- I think it is probably my/val's fault that she did not spark several conversations all at once there.

Particularly liked the reach out to Not_Mafia

Although, I kinda disliked the Matci post. I feel like there should have been //something// there to respond to.

But over all, I liked it

And Zyla also clarified that she was leaning Val as the scum in our 1v1 here:

I'm leaning Val as scum, but it's 60/40 right now

Do you have any further thoughts on Zyla, either just what you are thinking or in response to my post?

[Lukewarm]

this is another of those weird things that doesn't make sense to me if you're town.

I am curious what quotes you think I shortened to the point of being misleading?

----------------

This is the thing I was trying to draw attention to was:

Prior to post 214, Val appears to have had a weak scum lean lean on me. He said himself in post 183 "It's not a strong lean"

Then he read post 214

After that, his read on me changed so much so that he appears to be so sure that I am scum that he has not indicated even the slightest worry that I might be a townie tunneled on him.

And I was hoping that you would ask yourself, does it make sense for his read and tone to have changed so suddenly from immediately before 214 to immediately after 214.

---------------

I feel like the quotes I chose highlighted that, and were not misleading about his stance on me either before or after.

I mean, I understand why Val wants to present it like I was misquoting him in some way, but I am not sure what drew you to agree with him there.

Shortening quotes misleadingly is a dumb play to make from either alignment tbh. The quote box links directly back to the original post, so if you want to look for further context it is right there. Making a misleading quote seems like a dumb trap to set up for yourself, since it is so easy to follow back on.

[Lukewarm]

Interesting

This post keeps coming back to me.

I feel like this is a strange response to our conversation, but I am struggling to sort from it.

Like, I feel like it is a strange response coming from both alignments, so I am not sure what to do with it.

[Lukewarm]

@Not_Mafia - can you expound upon that "interesting"

[Lukewarm]

@Everyone

The more I think about it, and the more I look back over her iso, the more sure I am that Zyla is town. Don't like that she is the current leading wagon


If absolutely everyone is against flipping inside of me+Val, how does everyone feel about flipping Not_Mafia today?

[Lukewarm]

Where I am at right now

The "I would rather die before they were the elim" Tier

:: Pav, Umlaut, and Zyla

The "They are probably towns, but I cannot say with such certainty" Tier

: Marci, Alstro

Could be scum, but assuming they are town, this feels like the exact person that the scum team would push for a miselim on

:: Portia

The "Not_Mafia, but also Not_Mafa is standing out to me in strange ways" tier

:: Not Mafia

Actually just scum tier

:: Val

[Lukewarm]

I think that Val has not learned the art of scum hunting by Process of Elimination.

I got lots of town reads this game, BABEYYYYYY

[Lukewarm]

Would you mind asking him why he things shortening quotes misleadingly is a dumb play to make from town?

Because misleading people as town is generally a bad play??

{snip} why {snip} omit {snip} ?

This "why did you shorten quotes" argument is actually pretty dumb. From my pov, every player reading my posts read the quotes when they were posted, and should be at least somewhat familiar with the context. If they did not remember the context, they could click the post link in the quote. It is literally right there.

-----------------------

And for the examples that were just listed, the things that were pointed out were not relevant to the discussion I was having. My point was that Val was that following post 214, Val was speaking in such a way that that made it seem like he was 100% sure that I was scum / he was not worried about me being a tunneled townie.

If Val can show show a space where I omitted something that showed he NOT 100% sure that I was scum, of if he can show show a space where I omitted something that showed he WAS worried about me being a tunneled townie -- then maybe he would have a point, that I shortened too much to the point of being misleading

[Lukewarm]

**I grabbed the shortest quotes needed to show the thing I am trying to show**

"But why didn't you also include these other quotes that neither proved nor disproved the point you were making, and are therefore irrelevant?????"

[Lukewarm]

Dude, you are acting like I have not already been talking about Not_Mafia

453 - 455 - 473

Your reaction right now is a bit wild.

Are you town reading Not_Mafia enough that you are ready to go out and hard defend him here?

----------------

I literally preambled it with "If we are absolutely not going to go with Val, then here is my elim priority order:"

So, I'll ask you to do the same "If we are absolutly not going to go with Luke, then what is your elim priority order"

[Lukewarm]

In post 217 Val

ALSO

Wrote:

If it's clear that I am wrong about it being obvious crap (I've been wrong about stuff like this before) and a substantial number of other players seem like they might be confused by it, then I might have something more to say

That would seem to indicate I was NOT 100% sure about it, no?

If you say so.

I read that to mean "if people start buying your case, then I will start defending myself" --- which has nothing to do with your read on me, and is why I did not think it was relevant

[Lukewarm]

Val appears to have gotten really angry

[Lukewarm]

On a second read, it seems less angry. I just read the bold as yelling the first time

[Lukewarm]

In post 217 Val

ALSO

Wrote:

If it's clear that I am wrong about it being obvious crap (I've been wrong about stuff like this before) and a substantial number of other players seem like they might be confused by it, then I might have something more to say

That would seem to indicate I was NOT 100% sure about it, no?

If you say so.

I read that to mean "if people start buying your case, then I will start defending myself" --- which has nothing to do with your read on me, and is why I did not think it was relevant

If anything, that further supports my point

You did not care to talk about the reasons I was scum reading you, you only wanted to talk about it if other people thought my case had merit.

I.E. you were not thinking about the possibility that you might potentially be dealing with a tunneled townie that you might be able to talk out of a tunnel

[Lukewarm]

Jesus Christ. I let him pull me back into a 1v1 again

[Lukewarm]

I have also been resisting the Zyla wagon for much the same reason. (340,385)

Dear lord, I think that me and Val agree on something

We both don't like the Zyla wagon. I want to help move that wagon else where, instead of leaving it here until the end of day, and her getting eliminated because I can't pull my head out of tunneling on to you long enough to shut that down.

They apparently won't follow me onto a wagon on you.

I am leaning town, with varying degrees of certainty, on: Zyla, Pav, Umlaut, Marci and Alstro

That just leaves Portia and Not_Mafia

I chose Not_Mafia

[Lukewarm]

If you don't want me to be the one moving the wagon off of Zyla, then

step up dude

If you were to take me off of the table, who would you want the elim to be?

Suggest people move off of the Zyla wagon, and go there.

[Lukewarm]

@Everyone, I did not want this to get buried in the 1v1

@Everyone

The more I think about it, and the more I look back over her iso, the more sure I am that Zyla is town. Don't like that she is the current leading wagon


If absolutely everyone is against flipping inside of me+Val, how does everyone feel about flipping Not_Mafia today?

Where I am at right now

The "I would rather die before they were the elim" Tier

:: Pav, Umlaut, and Zyla

The "They are probably towns, but I cannot say with such certainty" Tier

: Marci, Alstro

Could be scum, but assuming they are town, this feels like the exact person that the scum team would push for a miselim on

:: Portia

The "Not_Mafia, but also Not_Mafa is standing out to me in strange ways" tier

:: Not Mafia

Actually just scum tier

:: Val

[Lukewarm]

Just to make it clear to the thread, I think that at this point

I, Lukewarm,

would be a better elim then : Zyla, Pva, and Umlaut.

If you don't want to follow me onto a Not_Mafia vote, then feel free to follow Val onto a Luke Vote

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Lukewarm]

I think that that shocked Val

I will fill in for him:

"But Luke said that if he voted for anyone other then Val, to treat it like a scum claim"

If you want to go there, vote me.

But if any of :Zyla, Pav, or Umlaunt were the elims today, I think I would scream.

Would rather be the elim myself.

[Lukewarm]

imo, short posts like that are not the kinds of posts that result in people skipping over the conversation. It is the repeated dense / long posts.

The big thing about avoiding thread clog is actually figuring out how to condense the longer posts, which is something that I am admittedly not good at

[Lukewarm]

Like, if I did actively want to clog the thread, the ones you pointed out are definitely not the ones I would be making to try and accomplish that

[Lukewarm]

UNVOTE: Zyla

I don't see any indication that NM is scum at this point, and an elim on him would tell us next to nothing, so as much as I am not a fan of the slot, an elim here doesn't make a lot of sense right now

It would tell you next to nothing? I know that he has not said much, but the entire lobby has commented on him.

People that have posted about Not_Mafia in ways that a flip on him would shed light on their alignment:

Spoiler: Pav

This most recent refusal to even consider a Not_Mafia elim, most likely never comes from Scum!Pav, unless Not_Mafia is his partner.

If Not_Mafia flips town, Pav gets +++town
If Not_Mafia flips scum, Pav - town /spoiler]
Val

Spoiler: Val

Val has commented so many times about being against a Not_Mafia flip, and came to his defense a few times.

He has also indicated that Not_Mafia should not be a cop target. Which could be "don't cop my partner" but it could also be "don't cop my potential miselim later"

If Not_Mafia flips town, Val gets +town
If Not_Mafia flips scum, Val gets +++Scum

Spoiler: Lukewarm

I am the person trying to rally up votes on Not_Mafia

If Not_Mafia flips town, Luke gets +Scum
If Not_Mafa flips scum, Luke gets +++Town

Spoiler: Umlaut

NM has done fuck-all but I kind of expect that from him. Would not object to an elim there but in my experience we either do it or don't, trying to use votes to pressure him is useless.

I don't think Umlaut ever says this against a partner

If not_mafia flips scum, umlaut gets +++Town

~

Alstro

and

Zyla

have both already said things that would be AI on a Not Mafia flip, but would like for them to weigh in before I reveal how it would make them look

~I find both Marci's and Portia's comments on him to be NAI if he were to flip either way.

[Lukewarm]

UNVOTE: Zyla

I don't see any indication that NM is scum at this point, and an elim on him would tell us next to nothing, so as much as I am not a fan of the slot, an elim here doesn't make a lot of sense right now

It would tell you next to nothing? I know that he has not said much, but the entire lobby has commented on him.

People that have posted about Not_Mafia in ways that a flip on him would shed light on their alignment:

Spoiler: Pav

This most recent refusal to even consider a Not_Mafia elim, most likely never comes from Scum!Pav, unless Not_Mafia is his partner.

If Not_Mafia flips town, Pav gets +++town
If Not_Mafia flips scum, Pav - town

Spoiler: Val

Val has commented so many times about being against a Not_Mafia flip, and came to his defense a few times.

He has also indicated that Not_Mafia should not be a cop target. Which could be "don't cop my partner" but it could also be "don't cop my potential miselim later"

If Not_Mafia flips town, Val gets +town
If Not_Mafia flips scum, Val gets +++Scum

Spoiler: Lukewarm

I am the person trying to rally up votes on Not_Mafia

If Not_Mafia flips town, Luke gets +Scum
If Not_Mafa flips scum, Luke gets +++Town

Spoiler: Umlaut

NM has done fuck-all but I kind of expect that from him. Would not object to an elim there but in my experience we either do it or don't, trying to use votes to pressure him is useless.

I don't think Umlaut ever says this against a partner

If not_mafia flips scum, umlaut gets +++Town

~

Alstro

and

Zyla

have both already said things that would be AI on a Not Mafia flip, but would like for them to weigh in before I reveal how it would make them look

~I find both Marci's and Portia's comments on him to be NAI if he were to flip either way.

ebwop : fixed a broken spoiler tag

[Lukewarm]

Val, have you ever actually been scum in a game? Because this read seems to betray a failure to understand how scum think. I don't think I have ever chosen whom to push for elimination based on who I thought was a threat to scum!me, and I don't really expect scum!Luke to operate that way either.

Yeah, thats what the night kill is for!

[Lukewarm]

@Umlaut, you are currently voting for Zyla, and I am kindly requesting for you to move that vote <3

I would prefer that vote to go to Val or Not_Mafia.

But anyone outside of [Pav, Umlaut, Zyla] would do

Thanks

[Lukewarm]

I am the person trying to rally up votes on Not_Mafia

If Not_Mafia flips town, Luke gets +Scum
If Not_Mafa flips scum, Luke gets +++Town

If Not_Mafia flips town, Val gets +town
If Not_Mafia flips scum, Val gets +++Scum

You see how this works in Lukes eyes; if Not_mafia is town, then that makes him just a little bit more scum. If he is town, then that makes me just a tiny little bit more town. Why does a Not_mafia town flip not make Lukewarm +++scum, given he *is* the one trying to rally up votes against him; from what appears to me to be very little?

I cannot tell if Val is actually just the worst at knowing what makes someone more or less likely to be scum, or if he really just wants to disagree with everything that I say

[Lukewarm]

I will say that I guess I misremembered which points Val agreed with in post 369.

I thought he had agreed with both. My bad.

Update that earlier post from a

+++Scum

to a ++Scum

[Lukewarm]

This is fine. If Val wants to say it would +++scum points for me if Not_Mafia flips town so be it.

@Val, do you want to just vote Not_Mafia to give me +++scum points if I am wrong?

No one seems to have an appetite for voting me otherwise, so what do you say?

[Lukewarm]

Alstro, you were pretty close.

I was gonna say that him being scum would be +scum for you, and him being town would be +town for you.

I wanted to wait to see your response, because if you said you were against flipping Not_Mafia town, then it would have moved it from +scum to ++scum

[Lukewarm]

Seeing as how the Zyla wagon appears to have relocated to a Portia wagon -- and Portia appears to have flaked -- it feels like we are gonna be in a holding pattern until whenever Portia gets replaced.

So, the next 24 hours of this game feel like they are getting ready to be pretty :: ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz

[Lukewarm]

@Marci, why are you still voting Zyla?

I have been asking pretty nicely for people to move to new pastures

[Lukewarm]

idk, I am used to slots being replaced at this point, tbh.

But, if ArcAngel is letting Portia go through all of the prods, the 3rd prod comes with "an automatic replacement" -- So, I guess I assumed ArchAngel would start looking for a replacement in 24 hours - right when she gave out the 3rd prod. I could be wrong tho

[Lukewarm]

I will say that the way you read the rules is what I have seen used in other games, and you should probably expect prods/replacements to be handled that way in other games

[Lukewarm]

The more I think about 455, and Not_Mafia's response, the more I want to yeet there tbh

[Lukewarm]

Zyla...........

[Lukewarm]

I hope our replacement shows up soon, so that they can re-jump start the thread.

I slow down my posting, and the thread drops to a crawl :/

[Lukewarm]

I, however, think Portia's behavior, in turning up obviously and self-admittedly l intoxicated, and getting over-the-top prickly about minor issues - and the subsequent disappearance - is more likely to indicate personal issues rather that disappearing for game relating reasons such as having rolled scum and not know how to play it.

I think you may be reading too much into the drunk Mafia-ing. A lot of people do that sometimes. it doesn't mean they have ongoing personal issues.

Yeah. This was literally his first game on site.

Seems just as likely that he decided that he was not having as much fun as he had expected, and dipped -- I mean, long form forum mafia is not for everyone

[Lukewarm]

This feels like a game where I get killed night 1, and then the town dies a slow and painful death due to apathy

In the last 48 hours we have had ||

1 post

from Marci, Alstro, and Zyla ||

0 posts

from Not_Mafia and obviously the Portia slot

That is over half of the players this game that are not even posting once a day now :/

[Lukewarm]

Fingers crossed the replacement taking over the Portia slot is a high activity level poster like HockeyFan or GrandpaMo so that the thread will gain some new momentum

[Lukewarm]

Idk, I think I am probably a pretty good shot for the scum team to make -- There seem to be plenty of miselim targets, and in general shooting the loudest voice in the room is a good play.

Anyone other then Val would never be blamed for it, and even Val would probably get away with it too because people would WIFOM it as "well, Val would never shoot there"

[Lukewarm]

Anyways, current pool of people I think it makes sense to be the Day 1 elim, in order of priority for me ::

[Val, Not_Mafia, Portia-slot || Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

Yes, I included myself, because everything above the portia slot I think is gonna flip town, and if we are gonna be wrong anyways, I would say yeet me because it gives more information then any of the other options that would flip town

[Lukewarm]

Anyways, current pool of people I think it makes sense to be the Day 1 elim, in order of priority for me ::

[Val, Not_Mafia, Portia-slot || Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

Yes, I included myself, because everything above the portia slot I think is gonna flip town, and if we are gonna be wrong anyways, I would say yeet me because it gives more information then any of the other options that would flip town

Wait, "above" the Portia slot (Shrek) as in not on the list? Just making sure cause if you mean above as to the left then I am super confused.

I meant "above" to mean higher on my read list, ie my town leans and town reads

[Lukewarm]

Also, hello Shrek

[Lukewarm]

Not_Mafia, do you only post when you have been mentioned by name?

[Lukewarm]

Not_Mafia, do you only post when you have been mentioned by name?

Maybe

I maybe just learned the secret art of summoning a miltank