Open 840 - Guardians of the Fortress [Game Over]

[RH9]

Anybody want anything from me?

[RH9]

read the game, give a solve, or at least weigh in on every single minigame

so like yes lol what kinda question is that

pedit: @rh9

I ISO people usually for games which I replace into.

[RH9]

Serious question though Ari, you have both said you'll vote when you're ready and that you'll let Tanner decide who you will vote? So which is it? Also, who is scum in your game from your perspective?

If I am 100% sure I will vote without input/permission and leave final reads in the thread.

If Tanner wants me to vote for someone I will give final reads and vote however he wants me to.

Whichever happens first will happen first. It's not a contradiction.

I still think Luke is by far townier than Pavo. He is playing an exceptionally good game if he is mafia here.

I beg to differ about Lukewarm being townier than Pavowski. I thought that 1032 felt off for his confidence on his reads. Meanwhile, 1060 feels like Pavowski is trying to do something. I don't think that scum would volunteer themselves for a vote in order to avoid looking LAMIST.

[RH9]

Whichever happens first will happen first. It's not a contradiction.

Eh maybe. It just seems like you're angling a bit and trying to seem townie with the Tanner thing when maybe your real intention is to just vote in a way that's beneficial to you.

Why are you townreading Luke again? just bullet points

I agree. I can't think of a reason why Lukewarm is getting TRed, unless it is by his scumbuddy or pocketed Town, as of 1032.

[RH9]

rh9 can you do a readslist with one of your cool charts?

I am working on it. However, I'm currently busy and will post one in my free time.

[RH9]

RH9 - how much of the game have you read? My iso? Pavs iso? Looked at town or scum cases against either of us?

Or are you just trying to be contrary?

I have only finished ISOing some people. I am planing to look at cases against you.

[RH9]

RH9 - how much of the game have you read? My iso? Pavs iso? Looked at town or scum cases against either of us?

Or are you just trying to be contrary?

And what is your thoughts on numberQ / Implo.

I would have expected that to be your main focus coming into the game, since they are the ones sharing a minigame with you

I have them both at null for now. I will focus on them more in the future.

[RH9]

I have them both at null for now. I will focus on them more in the future.

How do you feel about having both of your mini-game opponents at null, when you know that one of them must be scum?

I don't know. I'm planning to reevulate them in my free time.

[RH9]

implosion, have you considered that your TR on Lukewarm might be wrong?
(I'm still in the process of writing my reads table.)

[RH9]

I think that you forgot that Lukewarm desperately wanted to win and swapped you and Pavowski in order to fulfil his desire. Remember 125. Lukewarm was hellbent on winning Keep and scum!Lukewarm would have saw you as a threat.

[RH9]

Also when are the other reads coming?

As soon as I find the time.

[RH9]

(I'm still in the process of writing my reads table.)

Why are you so focused on Luke right away when he is not in your game?

Because through my analysis, he has the greatest motive for swapping implosion and Pavowski.

[RH9]

Also when are the other reads coming?

As soon as I find the time.

Ball Park? This game has a pretty short deadline.

Approximately, sometime before New Year's Eve.

[RH9]

There's zero point in me reading a bunch of scum BS.

What is going on between you and imaginality?

[RH9]

Notice

Spoiler: Important

I skipped Tanner because he is confirmed Town.

Spoiler: Table

My Observations and Reads
Players		Analysis
Original	Replacement	Notes	Verdict
numberQ		288 can be made from a Town trying to give advice or scum hiding a warning as Galron once did here in Mini 2250. I agree with 335, though this is NAI because scum can be agreeable too. I agree with his opinion of my predecessor in 530. However, I disagree with 531. I don't think that Pavowski is scum. However, the clarification in 551 makes me feel better. 687 seems like a good question but both Town and scum have the motivation to ask that.	Null
implosion		79, 84, 178 could come from both scum and Town for similar reasons on why numberQ's advice in 288 is NAI. I agree with 129, especially the last sentence. 131 confuses me. I agree with 591, in that scum likely moved implosion because he was getting TRed a lot and scum moved him in order to let themselves win. This points to scum!Lukewarm because he was notably desperate in winning as seen in 125. I agree with 593. 594 feels like Town because he is trying to sort the people that are in his minigame. I think that it is a bit odd that implosion doesn't feel like Lukewarm is scum, though. 674 is so true. I vehemently disagree with 901 for making Lukewarm look like he has almost completely no chance of being scum. 904 is annoying me to pieces because why do you not consider that Lukewarm is scum who has Aristeia pocketed? 908 is so true, though. If I was scum, I would definitely considering bussing. Most of posts afterwards seems to be a meaningless argument with Aristeia. 1203 is a decent comeback.	Null
imaginality		195 seems odd as though he's trying to please people and it feels fake. However, I have done that as Town before, making it NAI. 260 could be a clarification of a genuine mistake or a deliberate one intended as a reaction test. This is NAI. I find that for similar reasons on why numberQ's and implosion's advice is NAI, it applies to imaginality's 283 too. Most other posts seem NAI too. 691, 971, and 1248 feels like single-minded attack on VP Baltar. 1230 feels like he somehow changed his mind and thus he realises that he's looking like we are scum together.	Null
Lukewarm		1032 felt off to me due to his astounding confidence on his reads. Seeing that implosion got moved and how much Lukewarm exhibited a desire to win in 125, it is obvious that Lukewarm is scum. He seems strangely into meta and theory. Examples of this include 29, 32, 34, 78, 101, 324, 484, 554 and 896.	Scum
DArby	Pavowski	As previously noted in 1086, 1060 feels like Pavowski is trying to do something which is something that I don't think that scum would do. This is because volunteering himself for a vote would appear LAMIST. I agree with a couple of his posts. Examples include 463, 467, 611, 614. Why is Pavowski the only one to get it?Why did my predecessor think so highly of Lukewarm? I agree with 50 149, and 150 from DArby. There is no way that Pavowski is scum.	Town
Aristeia		I like a lot of her posts. Examples include 100, 102 and 107. 108 makes me want to scream at my predecessor for placing Lukewarm on a pedestal instead of noticing the wisdom of Aristeia. 110 is so correct. 153 is a good idea. 290 is so sweet. 488. makes sense. 920 is so true. Anybody who disagrees is scum. 922 almost makes me think that I'm wrong on Lukewarm. Also, Aristeia, you remind me of marcistar and Morning Tweet.	Townlean
VP Baltar		Seems to ask questions a couple of times. Examples include 9, 147, 151, 161, 180, 186, 207, 221 and 387. 205 feels defensive. I don't get 217 and 395. I agree with 771. I like response to imaginality in 856. Scumreads in 859 makes sense. 864 shows good solving intent. 918 seems like he is wanting answers. 975 seems like he's gone and actually done research. Interactions with Aristeia, which include 979 and 981, feels like he is trying to work with her. 1209 seems like Town wanting to know things. I feel like 1243 and 1244 makes sense.	Townlean

[RH9]

By the way, Tanner, don't get upset over me not including you because you are confirmed Town and thus obviously, everything you say has Town motivation.

[RH9]

I remember that last time I saw Baltar around, he was Town and got eliminated in the endgame when the scum coordinated a hammer on him.

[RH9]

I remember that last time I saw Baltar around, he was Town and got eliminated in the endgame when the scum coordinated a hammer on him.

He was right on one of the scum.

[RH9]

RH9 have you figured out who is scum in the Wall yet?

Not really, but out of implosion and numberQ, I would be inclined to say numberQ. This is because implosion has continued to pour his effort into this game while numberQ remains as he was. However, this might just be due to numberQ being busy IRL which hindered his ability to play in this game.

[RH9]

RH9 have you figured out who is scum in the Wall yet?

Not really, but out of implosion and numberQ, I would be inclined to say numberQ. This is because implosion has continued to pour his effort into this game while numberQ remains as he was. However, this might just be due to numberQ being busy IRL which hindered his ability to play in this game.

I mean that if I had to vote somebody, I would vote numberQ because I know that one of the two is scum.

[RH9]

Okay the more I read RH9's read post the more I feel like I'm reading a different game from him.

1032 felt off to me due to his astounding confidence on his reads.

"Astounding confidence"??

I'm not even super interested in making a giant case about him because it's kind of pointless. This is why I'm saying people need to look at actual actions in the game and who is trying to effectively solve. Motive is the guiding light here.

You have both presented scum and town cases across games. Like I mentioned to tanner, I kinda planned on doing a hard sort of the two of you once the wall flipped. Or, if at any point we started leaning towards the keep flipping first sitting down to do an if x then y post based on how the keep flipped. (but he asked me for my thoughts right now)

Pre flips I am leaning you>imaginality but it is not a hard read. You are looking pretty unpartnered with Ari here, so my if x then y post would probably say that an ari scum flip = town baltar. Don't think that a Pav scum flip would sway my reads in the Gate tho

"I am leaning"

"not a hard read"

"would probably say"

In what world is this astounding confidence? If you're town, are you sure

you

haven't locked yourself into a narrative of Luke-scum and you're reading everything you're seeing through that lens?

Oh dear! Thanks, implosion! I just realised that I was confbiased on Lukewarm. Maybe, I have been in the wrong, this entire time. I am so grateful that you are here.

[RH9]

The rest of RH9's stated reasoning for his Luke scumread in that post is that he is "strangely into meta and theory" which I have no reason to tie to alignment (I'd consider myself to be strangely interested in meta and theory, generally), and 125, which is just kind of a weird angle to pin a read on and RH9 is acting like it's a slam dunk reason. RH9's argument (he can correct me if I'm wrong) is this: the best way to explain my being swapped with Pavowski is that Lukewarm has a personal motivation beyond simply winning this mafia game to win his minigame personally, and because of that personal motivation he made the swap that gives him personally the single biggest chance of winning his game.

If I'm interpreting this correctly there are many, many issues with this.

1) Why, if Luke's motivation is to win his game, would he not swap himself to Wall? If you think he's scum he'd be able to do this whether or not I'm town. And Wall is the easiest minigame for scum to win.

I did not know that Wall was the easiest. Thanks for telling me! I did not consider it because I thought that Lukewarm wanted to win in the Keep, and that he swapped you because then he would become the most TRed and win the Keep by tricking the others. I guess that I have been cofbiased so much that I didn't consider that scum!Lukewarm might have just swapped himself to the Wall.

2) Why are you assuming that Luke's personal motivation would dominate the mafia's reasons for picking who to swap? There are three mafia members and the others probably would not entertain a swap that is specifically engineered for that reason.

Because I thought that Lukewarm could have convinced the other scum to follow along.

3) If this is actually Luke's personal motivation, why wouldn't he just not say anything about it, and instead go to Wall (immediately or eventually)? Why would he, as scum who really wants to win his game, choose to go to Keep and then stay in Keep?

Similar to my answer for 1. I was too confbiased to think that if scum!Lukewarm wanted to win, he could have just chose to go to the Wall.

4) Drilling in a bit more to that, why are you assuming that scum-Luke would be truthful about his motivations at all? It's like, taking at face value all of Luke's talk about his reasons for his early move and his desire to win, but then refusing to take anything else he says at face value. It's very selective, very arbitrary.

I thought that maybe he wanted to appear transparent. Maybe, my confbias was that horrible. I didn't realise that I did such horrible things to Lukewarm. If he is upset by it, I apologise sincerely for it.

5) Why is this the best way to explain the swap, rather than just one theory among many possible theories? Wouldn't it make plenty of sense as well if I'm town and Pav is scum, and we were swapped because scum just only had a couple choices? Or if I'm scum and Pav is town and vice versa?

Well, if you are scum, you certainly got me. As for Pavowski, if he was scum, then I'm not sure what to feel. In hindsight, your alternative theories make sense and I am appalled at how confbiased that I was.

[RH9]

-snip-

If you're annoyed at me asking if you're confbiased (at least, I'm 99% sure you're being sarcastic in the snipped post, but if I'm wrong then do let me know), then I'm sorry for frustrating you. I don't want to close avenues for dialogue and I can see how it's frustrating being told to magically stop having opinions that you've spent time justifying. I was frustrated when you directed 1204 at me as though I've never considered that I could be wrong about a read, when I've spent the game questioning and re-questioning my reads, and I've been reflecting that frustration toward you.

If you don't want to engage with me directly about Luke, then that's fine; we can just engage with others about him.

I wasn't being sarcastic and I am 100% nowhere near annoyed at you. You are one of my favourite people to interact with and I'm sorry that I ever made you felt frustrated. I would love to continue engaging with you directly about Lukewarm because you've been really helpful in widening my perspective and opening my mind.

[RH9]

The only person that I am annoyed at is myself for taking so long to get out of my confbias and upsetting implosion, who is the best for being so patient and understanding.

[RH9]

Aristeia, you just described town!implosion. I think that from memory, town!implosion is distant, patient, understanding, empathetic and occasionally takes stances.

[RH9]

Baltar, what do you feel about implosion-Lukewarm and implosion-Aristeia interactions?

[RH9]

what happened with wanting to read rh9's post? (:

Drinking a red bull and going to do it right now

FYI, after realising that I had a confbias while writing it, Lukewarm is now Null and Pavowski is now a townlean.

[RH9]

Sorry for not clarifying earlier. Also, I grouped my nullreads together and put them above my three townleans. I also put implosion and numberQ above everybody else because they are in the same minigame as me.

[RH9]

My overall assessment of RH9's reads are off the charts scummy...but almost so far it makes me wonder if he's town?

RH9, or anyone else who has played with RH9, I'd like to see a game or two you've completed as scum.

I have played in Micro 1036, where I only won because GrandpaMo misread the setup and started a wagon on fellow Town.

[RH9]

195 seems odd as though he's trying to please people and it feels fake. However, I have done that as Town before, making it NAI. 260 could be a clarification of a genuine mistake or a deliberate one intended as a reaction test. This is NAI. I find that for similar reasons on why numberQ's and implosion's advice is NAI, it applies to imaginality's 283 too. Most other posts seem NAI too. 691, 971, and 1248 feels like single-minded attack on VP Baltar. 1230 feels like he somehow changed his mind and

thus he realises that he's looking like we are scum together.

Haha wait what with the bolded?

RH9, can you explain whatever you're saying there?

imaginality had Toogeloo as a townlean for unusual reasons. He probably realised the bolded and immediately seemed to have changed his mind after Toogeloo replaced out for unusual reasons. I don't think that he actually read my posts too well because I never said anything about implosion being Town. Only imaginality believed in that which shows that he tried to distance himself away from any associatives between my slot and himself.

[RH9]

My overall assessment of RH9's reads are off the charts scummy...but almost so far it makes me wonder if he's town?

RH9, or anyone else who has played with RH9, I'd like to see a game or two you've completed as scum.

I have played in Micro 1036, where I only won because GrandpaMo misread the setup and started a wagon on fellow Town.

lol, you have three posts. is this your only scum game?

Yes. Because there was a global post restriction which was that I could only post one time a day unless the first post I posted in that phase did not contain a vote, which I may place in a second post.

[RH9]

My overall assessment of RH9's reads are off the charts scummy...but almost so far it makes me wonder if he's town?

RH9, or anyone else who has played with RH9, I'd like to see a game or two you've completed as scum.

I have played in Micro 1036, where I only won because GrandpaMo misread the setup and started a wagon on fellow Town.

lol, you have three posts. is this your only scum game?

Yes. Because there was a global post restriction which was that I could only post one time a day unless the first post I posted in that phase did not contain a vote, which I may place in a second post.

But I've been scum off-site on mafiagg and EM.

[RH9]

My overall assessment of RH9's reads are off the charts scummy...but almost so far it makes me wonder if he's town?

RH9, or anyone else who has played with RH9, I'd like to see a game or two you've completed as scum.

I have played in Micro 1036, where I only won because GrandpaMo misread the setup and started a wagon on fellow Town.

lol, you have three posts. is this your only scum game?

Yes. Because there was a global post restriction which was that I could only post one time a day unless the first post I posted in that phase did not contain a vote, which I may place in a second post.

But I've been scum off-site on mafiagg and EM.

How many times would you say you've been scum?

I didn't count but I guess about 5 or more.

[RH9]

My overall assessment of RH9's reads are off the charts scummy...but almost so far it makes me wonder if he's town?

RH9, or anyone else who has played with RH9, I'd like to see a game or two you've completed as scum.

I have played in Micro 1036, where I only won because GrandpaMo misread the setup and started a wagon on fellow Town.

lol, you have three posts. is this your only scum game?

Yes. Because there was a global post restriction which was that I could only post one time a day unless the first post I posted in that phase did not contain a vote, which I may place in a second post.

But I've been scum off-site on mafiagg and EM.

How many times would you say you've been scum?

I didn't count but I guess about 5 or more.

I kind of wish that mafiagg keeps records and EM was still around because I can only depend on my own memory which is at times, horrible.

[RH9]

Does town!Pavowski clear implosion?
I mean, that would be unless there was no scum on the Wall on the first day.
According to implosion, Wall is the easiest game for scum to win.

[RH9]

As a reminder, implosion mentioned that Wall is easiest for scum to win in 1301. I would also like to say that I never knew this until implosion informed me.

[RH9]

hmm

if implo is scum, that means imaginality is scum, because it doesn't make sense for baltar to not once, but twice shove his buddy into a game that is already got 1 scum and 1 town (first agreeing implo goes with him/imag, then sending him to keep)

if implo is town, that means imaginality is town, because scum decided to keep the gate (haha) the same way it was and why would they do that unless? vp is a scumfuck pocketing me

there we go game solved i am sure there are no problems with the above at all (:

So, are you suggesting that we flip Wall first? Because, I don't mind. The worst thing that can happen is that we mess up Wall.
But, first, let me ask you something. What if implosion and imaginality have different alignments? Though, you might not find it likely, there is a still a chance for that to happen. For example, you claim that Baltar is scum pockeing you but imaginality has the opportunity to attempt that too.

[RH9]

hmm

if implo is scum, that means imaginality is scum, because it doesn't make sense for baltar to not once, but twice shove his buddy into a game that is already got 1 scum and 1 town (first agreeing implo goes with him/imag, then sending him to keep)

if implo is town, that means imaginality is town, because scum decided to keep the gate (haha) the same way it was and why would they do that unless? vp is a scumfuck pocketing me

there we go game solved i am sure there are no problems with the above at all (:

So, are you suggesting that we flip Wall first? Because, I don't mind. The worst thing that can happen is that we mess up Wall.
But, first, let me ask you something. What if implosion and imaginality have different alignments? Though, you might not find it likely, there is a still a chance for that to happen. For example, you claim that Baltar is scum pockeing you but imaginality has the opportunity to attempt that too.

Just my opinion, by the way. I want you to consider all the possibilities other than the two where imaginality and implosion share an alignment.

[RH9]

rh9, that post was a 90% shitpost

who is scum between baltar/imag and who is scum between you/nq/implo?

I am leaning scum!numberQ because I don't think that scum!implosion would tell swap himself to the Wall and then tell everybody, in a post directed towards me, that Wall is the easiest game to win as scum. If implosion is scum, he certainly is an openwolf. I think that both imaginality and Baltar has a chance to be scum, but I've been trying to direct my solving efforts on my minigame as implosion recommended to numberQ in 1305. But still in my opinion, imaginality's posts are more refined and polished than Baltar's. However, this just might be imaginality's playstyle.

[RH9]

i mean... wall being the easiest game for scum is a factual statement. and one scum must always end up at the wall. how is that openwolfy or town!indicative.

and, imaginality's posts are more refined than baltar's. yeah. how is that relevant to alignment?

Just that I didn't know that Wall was the easiest. Like scum!implosion probably would realise that if he doesn't have to say it while town!implosion wants to help and thus says it. And I am bad at differentiating playstyles from stuff that is AI. So, maybe Baltar can be scum. Still don't see why scum!Baltar would not refine his posts more. In general, scum tends to make their posts look more thought-out and refined.

[RH9]

but like... scum!implo doesn't actually lose anything by you being aware the wall is easiest for scum...?

Oh dear. I didn't know this. Maybe, implosion has a possibility to be scum, after all.

[RH9]

I did not know that I am

that

sarcastic.

[RH9]

If you want a confidence boost, Tanner, should we flip the Wall first? Maybe, when you see the results, you can confidently hammer imaginality. Or, you don't have to at all because we win the Wall. After all, we only need to win two minigames in order to win. I propose that we should heed implosion's 1723 and then we can defeat those scum.

[RH9]

And by the way, I am not being sarcastic about my proposal.

[RH9]

If you want a confidence boost, Tanner, should we flip the Wall first? Maybe, when you see the results, you can confidently hammer imaginality. Or, you don't have to at all because we win the Wall. After all, we only need to win two minigames in order to win. I propose that we should heed implosion's 1723 and then we can defeat those scum.

why do you think that me seeing the wall flip will give me the confidence i need to hammer imaginality???

Because you can use associatives.

[RH9]

HOW can i use those associatives?? how will they bring me to scum!imaginality???

Remember his readslist. I think that if he is scum, his buddy is hidden there and a Wall flip will prove it.

P-edit: I miss Aristeia too.

[RH9]

Why are numberQ, implosion, and me, never online at the same time? I need to discuss with them, who to flip.

[RH9]

vp while i'm arguing with rh9: nowhere to be seen

vp when i call him scum: there in less than two minutes

Just checking in between when I die at fortnite

What a coincidence!

[RH9]

vp while i'm arguing with rh9: nowhere to be seen

vp when i call him scum: there in less than two minutes

Just checking in between when I die at fortnite

What a coincidence!

You check just when Tanner calls you scum and not during Tanner's interaction with me.

[RH9]

And FYI, that was what I meant by coincidence.

[RH9]

i'm not great at math, but isn't 9! like much larger than 162, implo are you drunk already

Alas, no.

I almost forgot that you are a 'Polymath'.

[RH9]

How do you know so much?

[RH9]

numberQ, want a reaction test. I

[RH9]

implosion, you can do the reaction test too, if you want.

[RH9]

You tried your hardest to win Gate as scum but Tanner wouldn't hammer.

Tanner's continued indecision despite your best efforts to make him hammer me made your buddy Luke panic. Luke thought he'd better take out Ari before she not only solves you for the second time and shifts Tanner into deciding you're scum, but also figures out what you're up to at the Wall.

If I were scum Luke wouldn't throw Keep because he sees it's likely I lose Gate. Luke wins Keep, I probably go down against you at Gate, and then it's down to my buddy at Wall. And who's my buddy? I don't have one, I'm town. I already told Tanner who I think yours is, I don't need to tell you who it is because you can just look at your role PM to see.

Please remind me when you mentioned a possible candidate for the buddy of Baltar. It might help remind Baltar and Tanner too.

[RH9]

Ok, I'm going to step back now.

It'd be cool if implo/RH9/numberQ had some thoughts on what the Luke flip means for their game.

Missed this earlier. I think that Lukewarm's interactions with implosion feels like he was treating implosion better than numberQ and me. Lukewarm described numberQ as 'empty', 'feels off', 'first three posts all feel like nothing posts' and that his 'progression [from 335 and 361] feels weird'. Meanwhile, Lukewarm considered my predecessor as a townlean but considered that their ISO 'feels a little more barren on an iso-read vs a real time read'. (Also, he used a pronoun which is not the one Toogeloo prefers.) However, when I start showing that I SR him, he reacts badly. Read 1093, 1101, 1104, 1106, 1113, 1138, 1150, 1151, 1153, 1213, 1216, 1217, 1218, 1229, 1337, 1342, 1351, 1352 and 1353. He literally changes from townleaning my slot to what he saying that my entrance made him 'want to yeet' me 'into the sun'. He accused me of being 'buddy buddy' to implosion, while he was doing the exact same thing. And he said this exact statement in 1351.

Every time he posts, I lean more and more on him being scum

[RH9]

@RH9: VP Baltar doesn't need reminding who his buddy is.
But for you and Tanner, I shared my thoughts on it in post 1654

Thanks for the reminder. So you think that implosion is likely scum while Baltar thinks that it's likely numberQ?

[RH9]

Also, I suddenly realised that in a response to Baltar intending to share my thoughts on numberQ and implosion, quickly lead to me talking about Lukewarm's treatment of me.

[RH9]

And half of my post was just me throwing a selfpity party.

[RH9]

By the way, Tanner, imaginality and Baltar, feel free to do my reaction test if you want.

[RH9]

By the way, Tanner, imaginality and Baltar, feel free to do my reaction test if you want.

What is the test you want to happen?

It's in 1805.

[RH9]

By the way, Tanner, imaginality and Baltar, feel free to do my reaction test if you want.

What is the test you want to happen?

It's in 1805.

I wanted to see what people would think of it.

[RH9]

By the way, Tanner, imaginality and Baltar, feel free to do my reaction test if you want.

What is the test you want to happen?

It's in 1805.

I wanted to see what people would think of it.

What is the test? I'm so confused

Look carefully at the second sentence.

[RH9]

By the way, Tanner, imaginality and Baltar, feel free to do my reaction test if you want.

What is the test you want to happen?

It's in 1805.

I wanted to see what people would think of it.

What is the test? I'm so confused

Look carefully at the second sentence.

I want to see what you do with it.

[RH9]

I strongly think Luke's actions shouldn't be read into as strongly as they are now, for a few reasons. One is that I know at least half of imaginality's theory is wrong since I'm town. More generally, people make mistakes. Us venerating Luke and being like "he's a good player he wouldn't have done this" like, that's like the argument that "good people can't do bad things". It's reductive. He perfectly well could have made a mistake. Maybe he voted and was going to unvote literal seconds later and got p-edited by ari.

But if we're both Town and imaginality's theory is wrong, should we trust Baltar's? I'm going to take a dive and do a reaction-vote with the hope that you are telling the truth on being Town. Also, because I think that you have provided more content than numberQ that can make me feel more confident.
VOTE: numberQ

[RH9]

post 1650

RH9 please unvote because if Tanner mislims me implosion is gonna insta-hammer numberQ and win for scum. I don't want to risk the game on the smaller chance numberQ is the scum.

What if Baltar is right about you being scum with numberQ or you know that if Wall flips before Gate, Tanner will look for associatives? I think that you're just scared because if anybody but implosion flips scum in the Wall, you will be incriminated. What makes you think that implosion doesn't have the possibility to be Town and that he's going to win for Town. I think that my vote on numberQ definitely got reactions from everybody but numberQ. Once I get his reaction, which I can use to sort him, then maybe just maybe I will unvote. However, for now, I'm going to wait.

[RH9]

implosion, follow your heart.

[RH9]

And Tanner, may we read your theory? Maybe it is worthwhile for everybody to read. And am I really that wild?

[RH9]

tanner would you be angry if i hammered and rh9 was scum

You caught me, implosion.

[RH9]

tanner would you be angry if i hammered and rh9 was scum

You caught me, implosion.

Just joking.

[RH9]

rh9, how often do you usually have scumreads on day 1?

It's Day 2. It's occasional but last time that this happened, I was spectating the game. I didn't write it down but I was confident in who the Mafia was after DaTacoX NKed catboi. I dod write down postgame that I suspected him for having the 'best reason' like how I felt about Lukewarm and his desire to win Keep.

Well done! To be fair, I just a little suspicious when catboi was NKed. It felt like it was a fearkill because of what happened last time. And then, when hops was NKed, I was like, whoever's Mafia just keeps on fearkilling. Which was what even got me to doubt you, DaTacoX. I felt like you had the best reason to fear catboi because they called you out in this post. Sorry if this feels too harsh, especially since it wasn't your fault that you had to carry the whole Mafia team for three whole days. And well done Meg for tracking DaTacoX and hops for protecting Meg. And well done, everybody else!

[RH9]

RH9, will you please unvote so Tanner can make a decision?

OK. I don't think that I got an reaction from numberQ anyways.
UNVOTE: numberQ

[RH9]

Tanner, who do you think is my last scumbuddy if I'm scum?
(I don't because I'm Town. And Tanner, there is no pressure. Only 4 days until scum coast to victory.)

[RH9]

But Baltar is right, you need to hammer soon or we might not get time to flip the Wall if you make a mistake.
(By the way, do you thinkk that I would townlean one scumbuddy and scumread the other as scum? Or do you think that I'll put my buddy as null?)

[RH9]

imag, what would your reaction be if Wall was resolved incorrectly and I flipped town?

I'd be surprised but i mean, i would still know VP is scum! I'd be worried Tanner would mislim me if you flip town though. I think it's better we flip VP at Gate and win whatever the reality at Wall is

If Baltar is scum, then we won't need to deal with the Wall.

[RH9]

I think that imaginality scumslipped in 1919. There's no way, town!imaginality talks about winning at the Wall after scum!Baltar flips. Only possible scenario here is that scum!imaginality knows that town!Baltar is not going to flip scum at the Gate.

[RH9]

Do you see what I'm saying about the game state and motivation for a risky Luke move?

i mean, i get it. like, i was thinking of a game where town was similarly on the brink of winning, and scum started panicking and doing weird gambits. and here i'm like, if i really am about to hammer baltar correctly, what's the scumteam doing? where's the urgency? and then i realize not only did luke commit the unalive, rh9 did the weird sudden vote thing, and i'm like hmMMM

You think that my reaction-vote has to do with me wanting to shield Baltar?

[RH9]

You think that my reaction-vote has to do with me wanting to shield Baltar?

no, that it has something to do with you shielding imaginality. like, if you're scum here, and imaginality is scum, and you see me about to hammer imaginality, that's straight up game losing. you *have* to do something to ~shake things up a bit~.

Oh. Makes sense but I'm Town.

[RH9]

Tanner, I am confused.

[RH9]

What are you saying exactly about implosion?

[RH9]

the question was not aimed at you >_>

Sorry, Tanner.

[RH9]

but, when i asked him what's the point because he's currently saying vp is town, he said that he finds vp more townie, even with the above information calculated in. why would he then be offering to get flipped so that i have that information, if he deems it to not be *that* valuable?

If he is scum, I think he believes he wins wall. Then the score is 1-1 and maybe there's a chance you side with imaginality.

It's harder to see a reason as town.

I volunteer a town!implosion scenario and that is that he thinks that associatives from his flip will help Tanner's decision.

[RH9]

I SAID GOOD NIGHT YOU SCUMFUCK

AND I SAID HAMMER YOU DAMN COWARD

Don't call Tanner a coward.

[RH9]

He is probably trying his best to interact with the game.

[RH9]

Tanner, last time that I thought that STD/Noraa performed top notch scum theatre, it turned out to be a failed pocket on Noraa's behalf.

[RH9]

So, in my opinion, I don't think that it is theatre because when 'it's too good to be true, it is too good to be true'.

[RH9]

do you actually townread vp and you got scared i was gonna hammer him because of it or....?

I townlean him and yes, I got scared.

[RH9]

See you, Tanner!

[RH9]

numberQ, are you up to the part where I reaction-voted you and implosion didn't hammer?

[RH9]

What do you think of that?

[RH9]

numberQ, are you up to the part where I reaction-voted you and implosion didn't hammer?

No I did not see that.

If RH9 is scum, he did that to capitalize on my lurkiness and hope for implo hammering.

If implo is scum, he didn't hammer because he's playing the long game and is feeling fairly comfortable alongside two other slots who are more SRed than he is. Luke flipping scum is making me really paranoid that implo is too despite me mostly TRing him for a lot of the game (the parts of the game I read anyway)

My gut is telling me it's implo. With town having won a game already, I think it's perfectly within reason for scum!implo to want to keep helping tip the balance over at the Gate. And it feels like such a risky move for scum!RH9 to make, again, particularly because scum is already down one game.

It actually isn't very risky. If I was scum, I would just need implosion to hammer and Tanner to miseliminate in order to win. While scum is down a game, if I was scum, I would know enough about your towngame to fake a reaction-vote so that you don't suspect me and scapegoat implosion if it went wrong. Also, then I could be an openwolf and say this exact paragraph.
But I am Town, so the above is just hypothetical, though I still think that it should to be taken into mind.

[RH9]

Do 1086 and 1090 sound like scum talking about scum? Not to me.

Does RH9 bus his partner as hard as he does in 1256? Seems unlikely.

1299 from implo I feel deflates my scum!implo theory at least somewhat. I don't know if scum!implo defends his buddy this blatantly. Hence, I am still on the fence. I'm going to stop ISOing for now and live in the moment for a bit, get a feel for the current conversation.

(Note: "a bit" here means tonight. With just over 3 days left I think it's smart to try and resolve the next game within the next few hours.)

I would say 1086 and 1090 scum trying to distance from Lukewarm. My reads table is easily faked because I just need to emulate my towngame, which I have done before as Town in Mini 2250. All I need to do is continuing pursuing a narrative in my reads table as scum. That's the only difference between scum!me and town!me.

And by the way, I'm think that scum would definitely try to pocket you because I've seen scum do it before.

If you're trying to catch up in a hurry, reading from this post forward might help.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p13138357

This is replacement-Green's first post and it kicked the rest of the players in the butt. They wrapped up pairings pretty quickly after that and moved on to the elimination phase. Green was right about Heart and may be right about Red as well.

The earlier posts are good reading, though. The reads I formed to that point mostly remained solid later. The players I'm least confident about townreading outside of Heart and Red are Orange, Star, and maybe Pentagon.

My strongest townreads are Circle, Blue, Purple, Green and you.

I'm ready to talk about our ability/night action when you are.

This is scum!fferyllt talking to town!Titus in their PT. All scum needs to is to influence the catch up in order to portray themselves in a better light than letting the player catch up by themselves and finding scummy posts by themselves. I have to admit that my scumgame is similar to a combination of implosion's towngame and the scumgames of fferyllt, Galron, Toogeloo (who I coincidentally replaced) and MegAzumarill. I advice that you take a look at these if you want to catch scum!me in the act.

[RH9]

[snip]

It actually isn't very risky. If I was scum, I would just need implosion to hammer and Tanner to miseliminate in order to win. While scum is down a game, if I was scum, I would know enough about your towngame to fake a reaction-vote so that you don't suspect me and scapegoat implosion if it went wrong. Also, then I could be an openwolf and say this exact paragraph.
But I am Town, so the above is just hypothetical, though I still think that it should to be taken into mind.

I don't follow. My town meta is to TR someone for reaction voting in LiLo? And it's like you're trying to incept the idea in my mind that you'd only scapegoat implo if you were scum. I don't see the throughline.

pedit: Are you pocketing me?

I am

definitely

pocketing you. I'm saying that town!you in Open 835 said the following and that would be why scum!me chose to do a reaction-vote on you.

RH9: sheeping Roden for some reason. I don't really know why you're trying to reaction fish from me specifically when there were two other wagons with the same number of votes or more at the time of your vote.

Galron's vote being a reaction fish makes slightly more sense than RH9's, because it puts me at E-1. Though I have to wonder why I'm worthy of that but Egix wasn't, who had been at E-2 for several pages.

I know that you will think that I am reaction-fishing so I tell everybody that beforehand. And I wouldn't only scapegoat implosion as scum, but scum!me is more likely to do that.

[RH9]

Anyways, I'm going to take a short break from this game.

[RH9]

Speaking of keeping options open you seem to be still doing that in spades, saying you're gut scumreading me and then going back to on the fence immediately thereafter. I know it's possible to be on the fence as town but from the perspective where RH9 and I both at least seem to be leaning you (at least, I imagine RH9 is given that he was willing to vote you earlier, though things could have changed, but what's important here is the appearance) playing the way you are in this fashion seems like the prudent thing to do as scum.

RH9, do you think this recent spate of posting says much meaningful about nQ's alignment?

It makes me feel nice that he's back. Alignment-wise, not much but it has definitely improved my opinion of him.

[RH9]

Speaking of keeping options open you seem to be still doing that in spades, saying you're gut scumreading me and then going back to on the fence immediately thereafter. I know it's possible to be on the fence as town but from the perspective where RH9 and I both at least seem to be leaning you (at least, I imagine RH9 is given that he was willing to vote you earlier, though things could have changed, but what's important here is the appearance) playing the way you are in this fashion seems like the prudent thing to do as scum.

RH9, do you think this recent spate of posting says much meaningful about nQ's alignment?

It makes me feel nice that he's back. Alignment-wise, not much but it has definitely improved my opinion of him.

As a player in general.

[RH9]

numberQ definitely seems to be trying to catch up.

[RH9]

I have intent to vote implo, but won't be acting on it until the morning (EST) at the earliest. Would like some input before committing to it, and I have to at least try to sleep now.

Have a good night's sleep!

[RH9]

Actually, I don't think that scum would wonder if I'm pocketing them like numberQ did in 2011. But scum could say it in order to make me think that they're Town. But would scum!numberQ do that? I need to check his scumrange again.

[RH9]

I checked his wiki page and my own previous research and it seems like he isn't the sort to plan it out with his teammates and I don't get the impression that his scumrange includes asking if he's being pocketed.
(Also, I'm not much of a fan of meta anymore so I'll avoid it in the future.)

[RH9]

But I would prefer more discussion before I vote again. (This time, it won't be for reactions.)

[RH9]

By the way, I actually still have troubles imaging a scumteam of Lukewarm-Baltar-implosion as suggested by imaginality. That scumteam doesn't make sense to me because Baltar and implosion haven't exactly been acting partnery.

[RH9]

By the way, I actually still have troubles imaging a scumteam of Lukewarm-Baltar-implosion as suggested by imaginality. That scumteam doesn't make sense to me because Baltar and implosion haven't exactly been acting partnery.

Has implosion been partnery with imag? Have I been partnery with Baltar or imag?

imaginality and implosion don't seem like partners unless they are doing exceptional distancing. The reason for why imaginality wanted me to remove my reaction-vote was that scum!implosion might hammer you. imaginality doesn't think that you're scum as much as implosion during the time when you were away compared to when you were around. Maybe a Lukewarm-imaginality-numberQ scumteam. could exist. Baltar thinks that you are a 'black hole of boredom'. I'm not sure if that is what scum calls their partner. Looking back again, a Lukewarm-Baltar-implosion scumteam could exist because implosion called Tanner and VP Baltar town and claims that it is from impressions. He also considered Lukewarm Town too.

[RH9]

We have two days left. And I'll take another short break.

[RH9]

The reason for why imaginality wanted me to remove my reaction-vote was that scum!implosion might hammer you.

This is an obvious "town" thing to say. In fact, I think I said it first. So I wouldn't be giving imaginality too much credit here.

imaginality said it first in 1858. You said it later in 1885.

[RH9]

The reason for why imaginality wanted me to remove my reaction-vote was that scum!implosion might hammer you.

This is an obvious "town" thing to say. In fact, I think I said it first. So I wouldn't be giving imaginality too much credit here.

imaginality said it first in 1858. You said it later in 1885.

Though, your reason was so that Tanner could make a decision while imaginality's reason was that scum!implosion might hammer town!numberQ if Tanner 'miseliminates' him. (At least, from imaginality's perspective.)

[RH9]

it is happening very soon, yeah, before i go sleep today. my irl has gotten unexpectedly more busy and anxiety-inducing for the next week, and i don't have the energy to be kept up by this game until 4 am every night.

i'm just. looking for that last piece of evidence to let me be able to hammer. i don't know what it is.

May the best of luck be with you!

[RH9]

I hope that Tanner finds the last piece of evidence.

[RH9]

I hope that Tanner finds the last piece of evidence.

This is called enabling behavior.

What does 'enabling behaviour' mean?

[RH9]

I hope that Tanner finds the last piece of evidence.

This is called enabling behavior.

What does 'enabling behaviour' mean?

Oh. Nevermind. I found out on Google.

[RH9]

Good game.

[RH9]

Congratulations to the Guardians for securing the sweep!

I want to thank all of you for playing. This was one of the easiest playerlists I have ever seen, with very little intervention required and things very rarely if ever getting personal or overstepping. I had a blast moderating this, I love the idea behind this setup, and I was very pleased to see careful strategic play it inspired from both alignments.

I am very grateful to those of you who stayed with me the entire time, and of course to my two wonderful replacements in Pavowski and RH9.

I hope you all enjoyed this as much as I did!

You were a great mod. I do think that it was funny that almost all the Town had the correct scumteam with the exception that only Tanner considered a Lukewarm-imaginality-Toogeloo/RH9 scumteam in the end.

[RH9]

To be honest, I lied about my own scumgame.

[RH9]

Good game all, sorry to the scum team for my vote.

I will say, that after we died, I learned that absolutely no one else was aware that Ari was actively building up to voting for Pav.

It turned into a conversation about why I would do it, since I was so close to winning the keep. But I really wasn't. Ari even said in the dead thread that if Tanner had told her/Pav to vote for me, she would have voted for Pav.

You did great, Luke. I don't think that anybody could have done better.

I have to admit that my 'reaction-vote' was out of panic and impatience because I got tired of waiting for implosion or numberQ to start a wagon so I faked a 'reaction-vote' which was not to shield imaginality but to distract Tanner. Sorry, Tanner.

[RH9]

To be honest, I lied about my own scumgame.

Dirty rat

My actual scumgame is to imitate people.

[RH9]

Who were you imitating

I imitated the way that Galron acted in Mini 2250 as scum in his interactions with me.

I also used catboi's advice for my towngame, finally.

[RH9]

Who were you imitating

I imitated the way that Galron acted in Mini 2250 as scum in his interactions with me.

I also used catboi's advice for my towngame, finally.

I used his advice as scum.

[RH9]

Who were you imitating

I imitated the way that Galron acted in Mini 2250 as scum in his interactions with me.

I also used catboi's advice for my towngame, finally.

I used his advice as scum.

Oops. It wasn't catboi's advice.

[RH9]

Who were you imitating

I imitated the way that Galron acted in Mini 2250 as scum in his interactions with me.

I also used catboi's advice for my towngame, finally.

I used his advice as scum.

Oops. It wasn't catboi's advice.

I can't remember who advised me to have scumreads again.

[RH9]

RH9, I think you did great!

You were making moves that I would have been too afraid to do, and they resulted in both numberq and implosion thinking you were town! I was impressed.

Thanks, Luke! I think that my 'reaction-vote' actually scared imaginality more than any of the Town.

[RH9]

Sorry imaginality for scaring you.

[RH9]

Sorry imaginality for scaring you.

Probably the worst thing that I did as scum was to scare imaginality unintentionally.
(And lie about my own scumgame.)

[RH9]

implosion, I think that you are a hero for hammering numberQ and letting scum win a minigame.

[RH9]

I almost won scum a minigame but you stopped me.

[RH9]

To be honest, I thought that saying 'lost to oblivion' was actually a nice thing which Prism did.

[RH9]

And I didn't know that Ydrasse and fferyllt were spectating.

[RH9]

I want to note I purposely threw in the line about deadline to drive Tanner to the warmth and comfort afforded only by a handle of vodka and I am not sorry, I regret nothing.

PRISM YOU TROLL

when i first saw the line, i legit felt my stomach drop. then i went to finally get ready for bed, and as i was brushing my teeth, i realized that (1) i have been trolled by mods in similar fashion before, no idea why they love to do it so much, and (2) prism is definitely a good enough player to know that that line would be spoiling the results, and no way she accidentally does that. so i went to bed holding out hope

Which mods have trolled you before?

[RH9]

Pavowski, did you and Aristeia realise that I was scum?

[RH9]

ari is the real hero of this game <3 i missed her when she was gone and i was stuck with *those two*

implosion is kind of for not hammering numberQ.

[RH9]

But Aristeia definitely helped Town win.

[RH9]

Pavowski, did you and Aristeia realise that I was scum?

I think your first readlist was a borderline scum claim and then your later posting won me over.

You played extremely well!

I actually faked my read on Pavowski badly. I put him as a TR when a townlean will make more sense and half of my reasoning was for agreeing on Luke, who was right that I SRed him for his playstyle.

[RH9]

implosion, I think that you are a hero for hammering numberQ and letting scum win a minigame.

implosion hammered me? Am I blind or something?

Think that's a typo. He meant to say *not* hammering

Yes. I did.

[RH9]

mmm you getting mad at me was really funny!!

I thought that Pavowski's interactions with Luke after you self-hammered was hilarious.

[RH9]

It was mainly 1588 because it reminded me of 'We Are Never Getting Back Together' by Taylor Swift.

[RH9]

Wait, what does 'a notch' mean?

[RH9]

Wait, what does 'a notch' mean?

Seems very british

Oh. So Pavowski was calling Luke, British?

[RH9]

After reading RH9's scum posting, I am glad to report I still have zero insight into his thought process!

I thought that I did that for a while in my Notes PT.

[RH9]

Subject: Open 840 - Guardians of the Fortress Saboteur PT

My New Year wasn't supposed to be spent arguing with Tanner.

sorry >_>

No worries.