Mini 1993 - Earthbound Mafia: Giygas' Curse - GAME OVER

[Carrot and Stick]

I can send messages up to three people per night

Also, Almost50?

If Momrangal is scum with you, then her sending messages to me specifically would be why I'm alive, because attempting to manipulate me privately through private channels of communication?

You know, the Mason Gambit?

...Yeah, that?

Something the messenger role can easily be made to function as a variant of?

...Ask yourself this--how easy do you think that would be to pull off as scum?

(The answer is incredibly if you were wondering.)

So that in of itself would explain why I'm alive.

Not why the message failed, mind you.
But why I lived, yes.

[Momrangal]

The plan was to send it to mastina tonight, and send one to one other person tomorrow stating, that I'm town and if I was still alive then Mastina was scum.

Sending it to only one person last night, and one more each consecutive night I could eventually build a list of confirmed town because if scum got it, then I'm gonna be clearly dead due to the perceived IC messenger role that they wouldn't want to keep alive

[Almost50]

@Mastina: Nice! So I wouldn't kill you on N1, but I wasn't to be cleared had you been shot N1. In short, I'm just scum regardless of what I say or do and regardless of how the game goes. (And you ask why I wasn't willing to debate on your mini-booklet posts?)

P-edit: Yeah, yeah. I'm Scum with mom, Math, acryon ... anyone else?

[Carrot and Stick]

I am a messenger and I can send messages to up to three people. Last night I sent a message to Mastina stating that I was town.

This is a scum usage of the role as well. I do however think it's a scumclaim of usage. The contents of the usage are what make it scum.

Sending to one player specifically who scumreads you, rather than trying to send to three people and trying to coordinate a system.

In that post, I explained how town would use it.

But how scum would use it?

It's a neat little way to potentially try to fake being a friendly neighbor.

Her claiming the role today and the contents she tried to send doesn't make it less suspicious how she used it.

A message stating only that she is town is something which in of itself is incredibly suspicious--and that would also explain the usage on a single target rather than three. If she sent three messages stating she was town, it would be obvious that she wasn't a friendly neighbor who was capable of telling three different people in a night she was town because that'd be basically broken as a town role; nobody would believe it.

Basically, this is yet another instance of scum-oriented play.
Momrangal's usage of the role could in theory come from town--but doing what she did would be

incredibly sub-optimal

usage of the role. It is a stretch of the imagination to believe she could use the role that terribly since it has very little in the way of justification. Why try to look town as town and do nothing more?

Momrangal's usage of the role has a clear motivation coming from scum--doing what she did makes perfect sense with her being scum, trying to falsely clear herself.

The same reasons why acryon's usage of his role were scum are the reasons why Momrangal's usage of her role was scum.

[Momrangal]

A50, mastinas scum

[Not_Mafia]

The plan was to send it to mastina tonight, and send one to one other person tomorrow stating, that I'm town and if I was still alive then Mastina was scum.

Sending it to only one person last night, and one more each consecutive night I could eventually build a list of confirmed town because if scum got it, then I'm gonna be clearly dead due to the perceived IC messenger role that they wouldn't want to keep alive

I don't think anyone would have mistaken you for a friendly neighbour, but if you've been away for a while I can see you coming up with that plan. Back to lynching kthnxbye

PEdit: Okay yeah mastina's read is bullshit

VOTE: Carrot

[Momrangal]

I had my suspicions last night but the way she's continually trying to hedgehorn my claim and usage as it as scum without thinking logically why, if I was trying to look town with my claim, and 'desire to look like a friendly neighbor" (not that she's wrong about) as being scum oriented while dismissing the fact that I am grossly overstepping that town read by explicitly claiming that I can send it too three.

Also if I simply wanted to look like a friendly neighbor then I would have just claimed so

[Carrot and Stick]

Nice! So I wouldn't kill you on N1, but I wasn't to be cleared had you been shot N1. In short, I'm just scum regardless of what I say or do and regardless of how the game goes. (And you ask why I wasn't willing to debate on your mini-booklet posts?)

Yeah this sort of discrediting NEVER comes from a town-Almost50.
Ever.

To put it shortly in an answer though: not what I said, no. You would not kill me N1 because you know that killing me N1 points to you. There is no contradiction in there, there is no "you're scum no matter what". That is a clear, self-contained thought process. I am alive because if I died it would condemn you. You as scum have reason to not let that happen. You asked me why I was alive. I'm alive because nobody would kill me. The REASONS why nobody would kill me differ. For players like the worst, et. al., it's because killing me would be killing an asset. For you, it's because killing me would be pointing TO you. This does not make you "scum no matter what". This is just a fact.

I am alive because nobody had reason to kill me. I am alive because killing me would be detrimental to the scum. I am alive because getting rid of me wouldn't help half the players, and because it wouldn't help those half of the players, my death would by proxy be condemning for the half it WOULD help.

In other words. NKA would point squarely to you if I died; NKA doesn't point to anyone specifically with Iconeum dead.

I'm Scum with mom, Math, acryon ... anyone else?

Nice of you to try to paraphrase my words into something I never said!
I'm rather unambiguous about who I am scumreading. You, Momrangal, and acryon.

kthx remains possible scum and if I am wrong on a read he'd be who I'd first think is scum but if I had to state a read on him it'd be a mixture of null and ambivalent-null rather than really scum.
Beefster remains potential scum but my read there is mostly ambivalent null with the slightest of leans towards the town side of the spectrum in that if I am wrong on a read he becomes far more likely as scum and if I'm wrong on two then he's basically definitively scum but otherwise I don't think he's very likely to be scum.

Mathdino could in theory be scum but the possibility of that is so remote that it is almost, almost, ALMOST impossible. I use the term impossible very sparingly, thus, he's as close to it as he'll get.

There is nobody else.

Just you three.

[Momrangal]

As far as yesterday goes, she explicitly keeps stating that I'm ignoring her, and that I'm scum for that but she also overlooks the facts that, when she asked to do things for "town cred" I continually kept on doing it.

Not only that, I was overly cheeky on bussing my supposedly scum buddies she ignored it, as did every one else, but more importantly she should have been paranoid about that

[Momrangal]

Also it isn't unheard of Town being a backup of a scum role. I've played in a game where that was the case which was another role madness game, though it was large its still proof that it isn't a stretch

[Almost50]

A50, mastinas scum

Even if she is, she isn't getting lynched today, I don't think.

I don't think either of BuJaber, the worst or Beefster posted today, did they? I want to see what these 3 think before I commit to anything.

P-edit: You didn't really need to explain that. You need to explain why you sent it to only one player of you didn't intent to claim friendly neighbour.

In other words, I wouldn't expect Scum!You to claim "Messenger" here. That's a point in your favour already. The point against you though is you messaged only one person, hinting you might've planned to claim FN and changed your mind, perhaps.

However, there's one specific thing on my mind which is why I'm waiting for the 3 forementioned players to post today before I commit myself to a push. I won't elaborate so that I don't give scum ideas.

[Momrangal]

The point is, if I sent a message to scum they would think that was a friendly neighbor because of the content of the message.

In that light, they would not keep me alive because the don't want me continually sending friendly neighbor messages to actual town folks and eventually becoming an IC one way or another.

[Carrot and Stick]

the way she's continually trying to hedgehorn my claim and usage as it as scum without thinking logically why, if I was trying to look town with my claim, and 'desire to look like a friendly neighbor" (not that she's wrong about) as being scum oriented while dismissing the fact that I am grossly overstepping that town read by explicitly claiming that I can send it too three.

Momrangal's usage of the role could in theory come from town--but doing what she did would be

incredibly sub-optimal

usage of the role. It is a stretch of the imagination to believe she could use the role that terribly since it has very little in the way of justification. Why try to look town as town and do nothing more?

Momrangal's usage of the role has a clear motivation coming from scum--doing what she did makes perfect sense with her being scum, trying to falsely clear herself.

The same reasons why acryon's usage of his role were scum are the reasons why Momrangal's usage of her role was scum.

Also if I simply wanted to look like a friendly neighbor then I would have just claimed so

Last night you should have gotten something, and you're ignoring it. Something that substantial proof that I'm not scum

There is no role you could claim to send something that I would believe--especially given that I did not roleblock you.

(I don't see any world where Momrangal is town. Especially since what she is softclaiming is apparently a favorite fakeclaim from her era of players for some ungodly reason.)

^Basically I made it rather clear and unambiguous that I would not believe a friendly neighbor claim from you and that it was a favored scum fakeclaim from your era of player. That killed any option of claiming to be one.

[Momrangal]

I don't recall friendly neighbor even bring a thing when I was around.

The "mason gambit" was barely even prevalent when I left

[Momrangal]

Not only are you trying to hedgehorn my words into something that is scum oriented, you're also doing it to A50 And you were doing it to Dino all of yesterday.

[Momrangal]

Further more, you were WK'ing Buj albiet in a more subtle manner

[Not_Mafia]

wtf is a hedgehorn?

[Carrot and Stick]

As far as yesterday goes, she explicitly keeps stating that I'm ignoring her, and that I'm scum for that but she also overlooks the facts that, when she asked to do things for "town cred" I continually kept on doing it.

Never addressing me when doing those things--still counts as ignoring me. You did those things with a detachment from me. You did those things without interacting with me. You didn't quote me when, say, voting acryon. You didn't give me a callout of something like, "hey mastina, I am doing the thing!". Nothing. Actions might speak louder than words, but they still need words connecting them.

So yes.

You ignored me. Continuously. You acted as if all those things I asked you to do were being done not because I asked you to do them but because they were being done on your own initiative. The framing behind it is what makes the difference. You weren't trying to work with me. You were trying to placate me. You weren't trying to collaborate with me. You were trying to throw me off. Which you yourself admit:

Not only that, I was overly cheeky on bussing my supposedly scum buddies she ignored it

The fact you're self-aware about it does not change the inherent scumminess of the action. Trying to throw me off is still trying to throw me off is still trying to not have me latch onto the things I am right about.

[Momrangal]

Shoehorn, force some thing to fit ect

[Momrangal]

You weren't trying to work with me. You were trying to placate me. You weren't trying to collaborate with me.

Yes. All of the above.

All of these things I would have done if I were scum because I hate having people on my back.

Every person I hydra with knows this because every person I hydra with does the 1v1 primarily especially when they are better at doing it then I am

[Almost50]

Yeah this sort of discrediting NEVER comes from a town-Almost50.
Ever.

Don't pretend to know me AT ALL. There are SEVERAL players in this game who know how my play has been of late. People come into games with a preconceived idea I am Scum. Scum come into games with a plan to push me till I lose it and burst. Newbies come into game not knowing me and the first think I know is "this is scum". I even tried to lurk it out in a game (off site) and I received TEN shots on me in a one hour window and only 2 of those were from Scum. (The funny thing is all 10 shots missed, but I was modkilled for "talking about the falvour" soon after)

But you know what? You ARE scum here. Why? Because you saw me doing this to LLD in Gistou, Magna in SU2, and probably to Mathblade in BOTH games. I'm sure I did it to others too in your presence, as this IS my way of showing people how wrong they are when they are tunneling. It also serves to show other players how silly 9and probably scum driven) the tunnel is.

But I think I know what you're doing! You're rolefishing, aren't you? You pushed Dino until he claimed and then found the BG unworthy of the lynch/NK. You probably caught Icon crumbing (you did admit you knew he was a backup JOAT) so you shot him. You probably are pushing me to get a claim and evaluate whether my role is worthy of being the N2 NK. Well, guess what? I'm not going to give you a claim even of I was run to L-1.

And believe me you, if what I'm expecting to happen next actually happens I'm going to fry you on a chopstick. I may not be CK, but I know how to get scum lynched, and RC isn't even here to try and save you.

[Carrot and Stick]

Also it isn't unheard of Town being a backup of a scum role.

Sure it isn't!

It is incredibly, incredibly, incredibly uncommon though.

In Normals, it's all-but-explicitly banned. (Technically speaking you might be allowed a nurse/deputy of one alignment to the main role of the other, but this I near-guarantee you would never pass review no matter what other roles you have in the game; ironically enough, my theoretical hydra partner Assemblerotws actually attempted much this idea but I was one of the reviewers who shot it down, so. It's one of those things which is, "in theory not actually banned but in practice we're never letting this through", akin to trying an 8-PR setup with two VTs.)

In theme games?

How far back do you have to go to find one?

It's uncommon for a very fucking good reason. Because it is shitty game design. This was discussed in great length during Biochemistry Mafia. Town backups to a scum role are something which disproportionately punishes the scum and pushes the game to being far more swingy in favor of the town; scum backups to a town role are something which disproportionately punishes the town and pushes the game to being far more swingy in favor of the scum.

In other words.

This point by Momrangal is of the type which is "technically true and valid, but incredibly reachy". It's a stretch even she can't say with a straight face: how sure does "it isn't unheard of" sound to you? Of course it's not unheard of, but it's far from common. It's far from typical. If it were typical, she would say so. If it were something that happened often, she'd say it happened often. But no. She can't. Because it doesn't. So she instead has to say "it COULD be the case".

Yes, it could be the case.

Anything non-bastard could be the case.

Mathdino could be a scum bodyguard, that could in fact be the case.
Scum bodyguards are not in fact unheard of.

That doesn't mean Mathdino IS a scum bodyguard, now, does it?

Of course not.

[Carrot and Stick]

The point against you though is you messaged only one person, hinting you might've planned to claim FN and changed your mind, perhaps.

That is in fact what I am saying!

[Momrangal]

I can't aim to claim a role when I forgot the role that I was thinking of had an actual nams

[Momrangal]

The plan was to send it to mastina tonight, and send one to one other person tomorrow stating, that I'm town and if I was still alive then Mastina was scum.

Sending it to only one person last night, and one more each consecutive night I could eventually build a list of confirmed town because if scum got it, then I'm gonna be clearly dead due to the perceived IC messenger role that they wouldn't want to keep alive