Mini 1993 - Earthbound Mafia: Giygas' Curse - GAME OVER

[Carrot and Stick]

the way she's continually trying to hedgehorn my claim and usage as it as scum without thinking logically why, if I was trying to look town with my claim, and 'desire to look like a friendly neighbor" (not that she's wrong about) as being scum oriented while dismissing the fact that I am grossly overstepping that town read by explicitly claiming that I can send it too three.

Also if I simply wanted to look like a friendly neighbor then I would have just claimed so

the way she's continually trying to hedgehorn my claim and usage as it as scum without thinking logically why, if I was trying to look town with my claim, and 'desire to look like a friendly neighbor" (not that she's wrong about) as being scum oriented while dismissing the fact that I am grossly overstepping that town read by explicitly claiming that I can send it too three.

Momrangal's usage of the role could in theory come from town--but doing what she did would be

incredibly sub-optimal

usage of the role. It is a stretch of the imagination to believe she could use the role that terribly since it has very little in the way of justification. Why try to look town as town and do nothing more?

Momrangal's usage of the role has a clear motivation coming from scum--doing what she did makes perfect sense with her being scum, trying to falsely clear herself.

The same reasons why acryon's usage of his role were scum are the reasons why Momrangal's usage of her role was scum.

Also if I simply wanted to look like a friendly neighbor then I would have just claimed so

Last night you should have gotten something, and you're ignoring it. Something that substantial proof that I'm not scum

There is no role you could claim to send something that I would believe--especially given that I did not roleblock you.

(I don't see any world where Momrangal is town. Especially since what she is softclaiming is apparently a favorite fakeclaim from her era of players for some ungodly reason.)

^Basically I made it rather clear and unambiguous that I would not believe a friendly neighbor claim from you and that it was a favored scum fakeclaim from your era of player. That killed any option of claiming to be one.

As far as yesterday goes, she explicitly keeps stating that I'm ignoring her, and that I'm scum for that but she also overlooks the facts that, when she asked to do things for "town cred" I continually kept on doing it.

Not only that, I was overly cheeky on bussing my supposedly scum buddies she ignored it, as did every one else, but more importantly she should have been paranoid about that

As far as yesterday goes, she explicitly keeps stating that I'm ignoring her, and that I'm scum for that but she also overlooks the facts that, when she asked to do things for "town cred" I continually kept on doing it.

Never addressing me when doing those things--still counts as ignoring me. You did those things with a detachment from me. You did those things without interacting with me. You didn't quote me when, say, voting acryon. You didn't give me a callout of something like, "hey mastina, I am doing the thing!". Nothing. Actions might speak louder than words, but they still need words connecting them.

So yes.

You ignored me. Continuously. You acted as if all those things I asked you to do were being done not because I asked you to do them but because they were being done on your own initiative. The framing behind it is what makes the difference. You weren't trying to work with me. You were trying to placate me. You weren't trying to collaborate with me. You were trying to throw me off. Which you yourself admit:

Not only that, I was overly cheeky on bussing my supposedly scum buddies she ignored it

The fact you're self-aware about it does not change the inherent scumminess of the action. Trying to throw me off is still trying to throw me off is still trying to not have me latch onto the things I am right about.

Also it isn't unheard of Town being a backup of a scum role. I've played in a game where that was the case which was another role madness game, though it was large its still proof that it isn't a stretch

Also it isn't unheard of Town being a backup of a scum role.

Sure it isn't!

It is incredibly, incredibly, incredibly uncommon though.

In Normals, it's all-but-explicitly banned. (Technically speaking you might be allowed a nurse/deputy of one alignment to the main role of the other, but this I near-guarantee you would never pass review no matter what other roles you have in the game; ironically enough, my theoretical hydra partner Assemblerotws actually attempted much this idea but I was one of the reviewers who shot it down, so. It's one of those things which is, "in theory not actually banned but in practice we're never letting this through", akin to trying an 8-PR setup with two VTs.)

In theme games?

How far back do you have to go to find one?

It's uncommon for a very fucking good reason. Because it is shitty game design. This was discussed in great length during Biochemistry Mafia. Town backups to a scum role are something which disproportionately punishes the scum and pushes the game to being far more swingy in favor of the town; scum backups to a town role are something which disproportionately punishes the town and pushes the game to being far more swingy in favor of the scum.

In other words.

This point by Momrangal is of the type which is "technically true and valid, but incredibly reachy". It's a stretch even she can't say with a straight face: how sure does "it isn't unheard of" sound to you? Of course it's not unheard of, but it's far from common. It's far from typical. If it were typical, she would say so. If it were something that happened often, she'd say it happened often. But no. She can't. Because it doesn't. So she instead has to say "it COULD be the case".

Yes, it could be the case.

Anything non-bastard could be the case.

Mathdino could be a scum bodyguard, that could in fact be the case.
Scum bodyguards are not in fact unheard of.

That doesn't mean Mathdino IS a scum bodyguard, now, does it?

Of course not.

Not only are you trying to hedgehorn my words into something that is scum oriented, you're also doing it to A50 And you were doing it to Dino all of yesterday.

This one I can't use a quote from my iso for though because admittedly I skipped it the first time. But my iso is open to all to read. I welcome it. Because what I've done is show why I think the players I am scumreading are scum. That's what's there...but it's not for me to judge what that's seen as.

[Beefster]

UNVOTE:

Apple Kid claim checks out.

[Momrangal]

It matters because if you're gonna write all of them up as town for causing/focusing it then you can't just town read Mastina because of that. You can't ignore the fact that Mastina is not actually thinking about the probability of scum of her bottom three. You can't ignore the fact that she is twisting every thing around and you can't ignore the fact that not one but three people have said that she's putting words in peoples mouth

[Beefster]

Anyone cc Apple Kid? The existence of Orange Kid implies Apple Kid, so I guess that confirms C&S as town unless we get a CC.

[Carrot and Stick]

And I mean no offense to Gamma Emerald, but if you think scum's abilities with town fakeclaims are going to be perfect, I'm sorry to say, he's not that level of a competent mod.

You can fakeclaim yourself

Considering I have no knowledge of the source material?

Not really, no!

I was brought into this game, wouldn't have come into it on my own.

And yes by the way, Mathdino. I do explicitly share your concern about Not_Mafia but I'm not bumping him out of the town list in spite of my frustrations with him--I still think overall he's more likely to be town than not, especially since the main reason I have for not wanting to townread him is that the game would be saner if he were scum.

I don't trust games to be sane, so.

[Momrangal]

Just because Apple kid is around doesn't mean apple kid is town

[Not_Mafia]

Leaving a parallel flavour claim to a townie as a safe claim really isn't the herculean task of modding you're making it out to be, you can easily the role with yourself

@mod Are scum given fakeclaims, safe flavour claims, both or neither?

[Carrot and Stick]

You can't ignore the fact that Mastina is not actually thinking about the probability of scum of her bottom three.

I do when I have reason to.

When Mathdino was in my bottom three, at the time he made sense with acryon--the moment he didn't make sense as scum with acryon, he left the scum zone.

I have no reason to think you aren't scum with Almost50.
I have no reason to think you aren't scum with acryon.
The actions you have demonstrated have not been such that a scumteam is unlikely--quite the opposite, every interaction I see supports it.

I follow the fucking evidence and a few distance votes and paltry interactions are not enough to dissuade me from calling a scumteam which is disproportionately likely to be right or at least mostly right. (I acknowledge once more that I am not a scumhunting goddess, I can and will be wrong, but I don't think I'm entirely off-base. I see three players as scum; I see these three players as being scum together sensibly; I know I might not be right, but I cannot play the game assuming I'm wrong because that just fundamentally doesn't work; as a result, I will continue to assume I am right until I have reason beyond reverse-BoPing myself to believe myself wrong.)

you can't ignore the fact that not one but three people have said that she's putting words in peoples mouth

Odd, this is a sin some players are guilty of in this game...
...But none of them are me!

Strangely enough, most of them are using it ON me in fact.
Stating I am saying things which I never fucking said.

I wonder who those players would be?

[Beefster]

@mom: That can certainly be true. It's also possible to have a backup JOAT without the real JOAT and that would reflect accurately on the source material since Orange Kid is just useless.

The rolecop is slightly suspicious on a town role, even if this is role madness. In fact, all 3 of those JOAT powers make sense for scum.

But C&S lives for now. Will reconsider on D3.

@Mathdino: would you mind flavor claiming?

[Momrangal]

"Slot must be scum because town would never do what she just did"

Is essentially your argument against me. That's all you have to push against me and you know that is a wrong argument to make because just because you would play a certain role one way as town doesn't mean another person wouldn't.

You have also completely ignored my reasoning where I admit that that is what I was doing and why.
Saying town would never try to pretend to be another role

to fool mafia into thinking they have a role that is stronger then what they currently have

his something that never happens

[Beefster]

Dino should protect mastina and mastina should rolecop tonight.

[Momrangal]

Mastina used the RC on dino

[Momrangal]

I'm pretty sure.

Otherwise, her saying she had a gunsmith guilty on Dino makes no sense

[Momrangal]

Oh let's also not forget that I'm trying to Placate you by outright attacking you and doing the exact thing that I hate doing as scum

[the worst]

I'm about 5 pages behind but just to clarify.

I didn't receive anything from Mom last night. Also I refuse to roleclaim atm but I did not target Mom last night. This will be important later.

[Carrot and Stick]

Otherwise, her saying she had a gunsmith guilty on Dino makes no sense

My rolecop is a night action; I said this on D1; there was no N0 and I was a replacement into this game anyway. It was meant as a breadcrumb/softclaim, yes, but not in that way.

"Slot must be scum because town would never do what she just did"
Is essentially your argument against me.

Part, yes.
The other part is meta.
It's not that it's "a town player wouldn't do what Momrangal did".
It's that "MOMRANGAL wouldn't do what she did if she were town".

It just so happens those two have rather significant overlap.

Everything you've done has been scum.

The way you pushed BuJaber.
The fact that none of your points even remotely resonated with me and were even rats-ass backwards from what I was seeing.
The fact that you were essentially entirely ignoring me all of yesterday.

It's no singular thing.

It's everything.

just because you would play a certain role one way as town doesn't mean another person wouldn't.

I acknowledge how the usage of the role is possible town.
But my point isn't that it's impossible to come from town; my point isn't that it's guaranteed to come from scum.

My point is that when you look at the DRIVING ALIGNMENT MOTIVATION BEHIND THE CLAIMED ACTION.
When you look at the intention behind the action.
The motive for doing it as town is a stretch, requiring many contrived, convoluted coincidences to stack up on top of one another, to create a plan which isn't very sensible and is incredibly sub-optimal usage of the role.

The motive for doing it as scum is almost self-explanatory: simple, direct, easy to understand, and piece together.

It's occam's razor in motion.

The plan behind the role is simple as scum and requires little thinking to understand, as it is optimal usage of that role as scum.
The plan behind the role is contrived as town and requires a great number of stretches to make sense, as it is sub-optimal usage to an incredible degree.

Oh let's also not forget that I'm trying to Placate you by outright attacking you and doing the exact thing that I hate doing as scum

I have been rather unambiguous that the placation was not D2--it was D1. You continue to ignore that because it breaks your narrative. Furthermore, you started the day voting acryon; it was only when I went after you that you started to attack me. And then by the time facts began to turn against you, it was too late--you dug too deep a hole to just back out of.

So yes.

You're doing the exact thing you hate doing as scum.

You didn't know you were going to be doing it, but you got into it because you have no choice.

And don't say that can't happen.
I'm an elite scum player and it's happened to me.
You could be a Don Corelone and have it happen to you.
No scum player is immune to having it happen to them.

Because they don't realize it's happening until it's too late and has already happened.

You reacted in the way you thought was best.
Then reacted in the way you thought was best from the prior reaction.
And then the best from that prior reaction.
And so on and so forth down a chain which eventually led to this.

Just because you don't like doing something as scum doesn't mean it's something you can't do as scum.

[Mathdino]

mastina wtf happened to "MY SCUMREADS ARE ALL COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT, IF IM WRONG ON ONE I SHIFT TO THE NEXT"
so much for you independently scumreading me

@Beefster: no, i'm protecting you, no way do i protect mastina here

@Marangal: dude she claimed the gunsmith guilty on me during D1

Edit: holy shit yeah i'm ignoring mastina today

[Not_Mafia]

You can ignore her permanently by lynching her

[Beefster]

I'm about 5 pages behind but just to clarify.

I didn't receive anything from Mom last night. Also I refuse to roleclaim atm but I did not target Mom last night. This will be important later.

Well I did JK her, so that would make sense.

[Beefster]

Mastina used the RC on dino

What post? I can't find it.

[Beefster]

mastina wtf happened to "MY SCUMREADS ARE ALL COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT, IF IM WRONG ON ONE I SHIFT TO THE NEXT"
so much for you independently scumreading me

@Beefster: no, i'm protecting you, no way do i protect mastina here

@Marangal: dude she claimed the gunsmith guilty on me during D1

Edit: holy shit yeah i'm ignoring mastina today

Well there's no way I'm JKing you since that makes you useless.

[Beefster]

@Mathdino: would you mind flavor claiming?

[Carrot and Stick]

mastina wtf happened to "MY SCUMREADS ARE ALL COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT, IF IM WRONG ON ONE I SHIFT TO THE NEXT"

Still applies?

I am scumreading Momrangal individually and off of her Almost50/acryon interactions.
I am scumreading acryon individually and off of his Momrangal interactions.
I am scumreading Almost50 individually and off of his Momrangal/acryon interactions.

I was scumreading you individually and off of acryon/Momrangal interactions.
It just so happened that you knocked out both the acryon interactions and the individual scumread at the exact same time, but it very easily could have been at two different times.

If I thought the scumteam no longer made sense but still scumread you, you'd be in the scum list but at a reduced spot off of a reduced confidence in that I'd have a more "if this, then that".
If I thought the scumteam did make sense but no longer scumread you, you'd be stuck in ambivalence pretty much indefinitely--I'd think you'd look town, but I'd be concerned you'd be scum because you'd fit even if individually I didn't have a read there. (For the record, I consider this the far more shitty read of the two to have.)

By coincidence, when you cased acryon, you did so in a way which knocked out both...which I explicitly said.
I said at the time that "even if acryon were town, I'd think this were Mathblade as town". And in that same post, noted that "but this is CERTAINLY not scumbuddies".

That's what I meant. You managed to reverse BOTH at the same time, rather than just one.

These two factors exist entirely separate from one another.
Individual scumreads, and scumteam interactions/pair reads.
You can have players be town by one, town by the other, town by both, one town and the other scum, one scum and the other town, or be scum by both. They exist in whatever state they exist in.

You went from scum/scum to town/town.
Momrangal is scum/scum with Individual and interactions with Almost50/acryon.
acryon is scum/scum with Individual and Interactions with Momrangal.
Almost50 is scum/scum with Individual and Interactions with Momrangal.

They augment, rather than contradict, one another.

I really don't see what's so hard to get about that.
You'd think it'd be a fairly standard method?
It seems fairly self-explanatory to me.

My scumreads are both based on individual play AND interactions with one another.
My townreads are both based on individual play AND interactions with one another.
I don't get why people seem to think individual play and interactions inherently clash with one another--they CAN, and DO, and when they do I often make note of it having happened, but they don't have to and right now they're mostly not.

[Beefster]

Actually, after thinking some more, C&S would be a decent lynch. If she flips town, we get information via associatives. If she flips scum, well, we hit scum and still get some information via associatives.

As far as I can tell, we currently have 3 conftown: Myself, Mathdino, and Momrangal. This holds especially true if mastina flips red.

[Kthxbye]

incorrect, we have no conftown. Explain why you think those 3 are "confirmed".