Sid Meier's Civilization 5 UPick Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Shaziro]

Hrmmm...Creature, Varsoon, Almost50. If they are all scum, there is undoubtably a team in there somewhere. Guess I'll look for some associatives.

[Varsoon]

>Varsoon is speculating about multiball

REEEEEEEEEEEE

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Varsoon

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Speculating?
It's a fact, Elbirn. No way with Venmar's mod meta does he make this singleball.

Sure. Why does town-varsoon care?

Dude, maybe read my posts.

[Venmar]

Votecount 1.7

[1]

Varsoon:

Elbirn

[2]

Nero Cain:

BuJaber, Shaziro

[0] assemblerotws:

[0] brassherald:

[1]

Bujaber:

Klazam

[0] Kokichi Oma:

[2]

creature:

Kokichi Oma, ranmaru

[1]

Chara:

Nero Cain

[0] Elbirn:

[2]

Gamma Emerald:

ActionDan, Creature

[5]

Klazam:

pidgey, Varsoon, marshy, brassherald, titus

[0] Titus:

[0] Shaziro:

[0] ActionDan:

[1]

Joey_:

Dunkerdoodles

[0] Dunkerdoodles:

[1]

pidgey:

Almost50

[0] jodaxq:

[0] almost50:

[0] marshy:

[0] ranmaru:

NOT VOTING

:

• Assemblerotws, Jodaxq, Gamma Emerald, Joey_, Chara

NOTES

:

• With
  [21]
  alive, it takes
  [11]
  votes to lynch.
  
• Deadline is in (expired on 2018-03-16 22:30:00).
  
• Deadline is on Friday,
  16 March @ 10:30 PM PST
  / Saturday,
  17 March @ 1:30 AM EST
  
  
• brassherald
  is revealed as an

Innocent Child.

Searching for a replacement for Assemblerotws

[/list]

World Congress

Voting for a Congress Host (Update 1.6)

[0] Varsoon:

[0] Nero Cain:

[0] assemblerotws:

[4]

brassherald:

Nero Cain (1), Shaziro (1), Chara (1), Jodaxq (1)

[0] Bujaber:

[3]

Kokichi Oma:

Kokichi Oma (1), Dunkerdoodles (1), Joey_ (1)

[0] creature:

[0] Chara:

[3]

Elbirn:

Elbirn (1), Bujaber (1), Varsoon (1)

[0] Gamma Emerald:

[1]

Klazam:

Klazam (1)

[3]

Titus:

Titus (1), marshy (1), pidgey (1)

[0] Shaziro:

[0] ActionDan:

[0] Joey_:

[0] Dunkerdoodles:

[0] pidgey:

[0] jodaxq:

[1]

almost50:

almost50 (1)

[0] marshy:

[0] ranmaru:

Spoiler: Delegates Not Yet Cast (6)

Assemblerotws (1), brassherald (1), Creature (1), Gamma Emerald (1), ActionDan (1), ranmaru (1)

NOTES

:

None as of right now.

[Venmar]

@mod if we get to the point where the host for the world congress and the runner up are set and cannot be altered even though there may be some delegates not cast, would that set off the world congress, or do we need to wait for all delegates to be cast?

The WC will resolve once someone has reached a majority. The person with the second-highest amount of votes at that time will become the runner-up. OR, once all delegates have been cast, in which case host and runnerup are decided by plurality.

@Mod: Do scum have daychat?

Unfortunately I cannot answer this question with a yes or a no.

[BuJaber]

Kokichi - you don't see any benefit in forcing scum to target the IC? From what I understand world leader changes anyway every day. If brass lives we vote him again if he doesn't we dont. The 'term' for hosting isn't until death. And if they choose not to we have a confirmed townie as host for subsequent days.

I don't understand why multiball scum means Varsoon is town. Multiball scum makes you think twice about every townread/scumread. It makes you think twice about why and how people are voting for the congress host. Also unless I misunderstood him his arguments are assuming that world host and resolutions are very significant and impactful that scum would fight hard to get. Why are we assuming this? Players can vote for resolutions. World host doesn't get his way he just gets a 2nd vote while literally being in the spotlight. I don't think scum would play the world congress mechanic as brazenly as you think.

Therefore I am not so sure of the town motivation for thinking about and putting the idea of multiball out there.
Furthermore he is simply reading too much into the role pm. The only objective point he made was the mod meta analysis. But how much we can rely on that? I don't know a lot about how people mod here but I don't really see why hosting a certain way x number of times means you would do it again.

Not to mention of course that I generally dislike discussions that are not directly going to help people scumhunt more effectively. Say we agree that it is multiball or that we will take it into account at least. How does that change the way we scumread anyway? All I can think of is it adds more doubt and make us second guess ourselves. Not only that but multiball means our ability to sort people based on flips is hurt significantly. If someone flips scum does that mean people on their wagon are a) town lynching scum b) scum lynching other scumteam c) scum bussing. How would you know one way or another?


Basically the real question I'm asking here is why is multiball speculation pro-town when we have no evidence at all to suggest it yet?

[BuJaber]

Replace 'multiball scum' with 'multiball spec' in my post.

[BuJaber]

I mean isn't considering every single possibility not the correct way to play as town? You want to in general explain scumreads/townreads in the simplest way you can. This means you go with the obvious things and your gut most of the time and test things out. If you are doubting yourself at every step you are an ineffective town. It's the whole reason why mafia game requires you to have something of an ego and a reasonable level of stubborness. Otherwise you will be distracted thinking about the most convuluted of ways to clear your scumreads of any liability / suspect your townreads.

[Varsoon]

I literally explain why it's an important consideration, why the mechanic is something scum would want control over, and how, by design, this setup is very likely to be multiball.

I'm not going to repeat myself, just actually read my posts this time.
I'm not introducing some epic level of wifom, either. I could see how you'd have that argument against me if I was using multiball spec to try to guide wagons in ways they weren't going, but that's not the case at all.
When this game is confirmed as multiball, you can apologize for doubting me.

[BuJaber]

I did read your posts.

I wasn't asking you why you are speculating about multiball. I was asking those who townread you for it to explain why since I see no town motivation to do so. So at best your spec should be NAI.

And I have no problem apologizing to you if it is indeed multiball and you flip town. I will apologize that I suspected you. But there's still not a good speculation for town so you know your alignment doesn't change that and whether or not you're right doean't change that. My argument is pretty clearly about how does speculating about multiball at this stage of the game help town?

[Varsoon]

If it's a play that has no intrinsic town motivation to it, then why, as scum, would I do it? Wouldn't I want to do 'town motivated' things as scum?

That's what WIFOM looks like.

I'm also not speculating, either. I'm declaring that it is definitely multiball for the reasons I laid out and that our considerations of how to play around the public mechanic and how to read certain plays should be tailored towards that fact.
I'm very confident that it'll be confirmed as multiball after N1, regardless.
I'm also trying to express the way that I am seeing the setup so that people understand my thought process a little better.
Consider if I continued to play privately assuming multiball but not saying so--that'd be confusing for people.

If anything, your attempts to throw shade on the whole thing reek of scum who wants to keep town in the dark and have them keep playing in a way that's not fit for solving the actual game at hand. I don't get why you're so critical of this. Townreads on me make plenty of sense, too, so I don't get where your confusion is coming from there--I'm sharing the way I am approaching the game, giving clarity to how I'm proceeding, making reading my slot more transparent for town and, for scum, it makes sense to townread me because they KNOW it's multiball.

[Varsoon]

Scum benefit way more by keeping multiball hidden from town--it lets them gambit claiming vigilante rather than a second scum kill and it keeps town from gamesolving efficiently. I see your attempts to discredit my discovery as 'speculation' as anti-town. I don't comprehend how you could disagree with certain points on the game design only making sense as a multiball setup given what we know about the public mechanics.

[BuJaber]

Well I thought you were speculating.

If you're sure it does make a difference in what you would do. So I apologize for not realizing your confidence.

But see now if you're right it's good for town. If you're wrong it's bad for town. So I think it is a reckless thing to do day 1. Especially if you think we will get confirmation as early as N1.


Also it's only good for scum to keep us in the dark about multiball if they know for a fact that it is multiball. If they don't know or if they know that it is singleball then the scum benefit is obvious as I explained. It makes us question every read. It makes it possible for town to kill both people in a TvS because they think it could be SvS. It makes it impossible to townread people just for scumhunting. Etc.

You didn't answer my question regarding the world congress. Why do you assume it's so good for scum to control it? Why do you think it's overpowered if it's singleball? You think it's reasonable for a 5 or 6 person scumteam champion their partner to host when it would literally put them all in danger?

[BuJaber]

If anything multiball is probably worse for town in terms of the world congress because there could be 2 or 3 scum being nominated independently so there's a bigger chance of voting for scum.

[Varsoon]

Then just take it only as a consideration rather than an absolute until it's mod-confirmed.

I don't know your experience with mafia, but I've never designed or seen a game where scum were unaware a setup was multiball. It's usually pretty obvious when you see your team is only two or three people in a 21p setup.

It's good for scum to get the extra votes. To actually 'control' it would take a degree of rhetorical prowess that'd likely reflect scum winning the game independent of the mechanic anyway.
I already explained how it's lean-scum in singleball due to how easy it would be for scum players to amass enough extra delegates to ensure the resolutions and congress leaders they want always get into power after only a few days.
I don't think it'd be something as obvious as all the scum clearly dogpiling votes on a single candidate on their own team, but more along the lines of scum being able to build lots of vote momentum for candidates that will only benefit them (people they know they can control. kill, influence, etc.) and against candidates they know are trouble for them.

There's not a bigger chance for town to vote scum in multiball for world congress because the total amount of scum would be the same. Yes, you could end up in a situation where both world congress leaders are on different scumteams, but the same situation could happen much easier for two scum on the same team in a singleball setup. Consider one scum 'running against' the other, ending up with town splitting their votes between the two and scum secretly doing so as well to make those candidates seem like the clear-cut ones to vote between. That's way more likely to happen with a single scumteam rather than multiple smaller ones.

[BuJaber]

That does make sense. None of those thoughts occurred to me so I couldn't see any benefit to town.

And as for the scum knowing it's multiball yeah that just made me feel stupid. In my defence I've only ever played multiball where it was either an open setup or the mod explicitly told everyone.

[Varsoon]

Well, at the very least, if this is confirmed as multiball, I don't think that you've been feigning that sort of ignorance and you're more likely town due to it.

[Kokichi Oma]

Hrmmm...Creature, Varsoon, Almost50. If they are all scum, there is undoubtably a team in there somewhere. Guess I'll look for some associatives.

..What?

[Kokichi Oma]

Kokichi - you don't see any benefit in forcing scum to target the IC? From what I understand world leader changes anyway every day. If brass lives we vote him again if he doesn't we dont. The 'term' for hosting isn't until death. And if they choose not to we have a confirmed townie as host for subsequent days.

Okay? And he will die if he's both. If he's not the WC host, then there is a chance they kill the host.

[Kokichi Oma]

That whole Varsoon/BuJab convo was pointless. Who cares about setup spec right now. Find mafia and give reasons. The longer that goes on the more anti town it is.

[brassherald]

I'm reading it, and I think from hosting, the host gets 1 extra delegate for the day hosted (Here, day 1) We are choosing a host for TODAY, not for tomorrow. Kokichi, could you just reread the World Congress mechanic and see if I'm correct?

[Kokichi Oma]

Yes. But host gets an extra vote. We need for that person to be alive. To have more influence.

[brassherald]

Yes. But host gets an extra vote. We need for that person to be alive. To have more influence.

I think it limits the extra vote to today's vote. Not over time when I said the host got extra permanent delegates, I was mistaken.

Every day, the playerbase will vote amongst themselves who among them should be the Host of the World Congress. The Host gets an additional delegate

for the day

, and gets to choose a resolution from a list for the playerbase to vote on. The player with the second highest amount of votes for Host will choose a second resolution to vote for.

(emphasis added)

[BuJaber]

Yes brass. Komi's point is irrelevant. The only difference between you and anybody else is you are confirmed townie so we trust you don't have anti-town wincon. That's the advantage for voting you.

[BuJaber]

They can't kill him before he becomes host unless we a) lynch before he does b) they have day kill.

[Ranmaru]

Spoiler: Catch Up

How is a misspelling scummy

You're right, it isn't.

vote:Gamma

VOTE: gamma
he is scum

Why are you two voting Gamma.

Why Elbirn, Vasoon? Also I have a question addressed to you earlier in the thread. Also, why are you still voting Gamma? Who else is scum?

Elbirn's definitely town, given how he's played this. I don't agree with his backing of Kokichi and I'd feel way more comfortable with Elbirn in the 2 people deciding things than anyone else because I feel he'd actually make democratic decisions rather than ones based on just what he wants. Apologies for missing your previous question, lemme get to that. It helps to bold things. I have a bad habit of skimming hard sometimes or missing posts entirely. I couldn't tell you who else is scum, but Gamma's still my best lead for who may be. When you stay 'still voting Gamma'--did Gamma do anything to exonerate himself or make himself really obviously town?

No, he hasn't. Meta wise, this is quite the improvement. I don't see as much votes from him, though.

So far I assume Shaziro and I want Chara as World Host. Who else does?

Faux Elect: Chara

.

Question:

How many scum are we assuming is in this game/setup?

Didn't like these much.

If you want Chara as host why would you not vote? Its like he's afraid to not do things that are popular.

The scond (bolded) doesn't matter but 5/16 is the going rate.

I didn't know about the secondary option you mention to Chara, nor did I read the rules thoroughly. I see nothing wrong with discussing host and holding out my host vote until later since it's permanent. That's not fear of doing what's popular, it's a smart play. Why did you go back and dig this up?

Brassherald has revealed himself as an

Innocent Child!

He is guaranteed to be aligned with town.

Check this game out to see an example of how to IC: Diamond is Unbreakable

VOTE: Nero Cain

scummy. no town player goes after ranmaru for their vote/main focus at this junction of the game. almost50 can still go as well

eh wot m8
I've kinda been concerned of buddying from Ran so idk

How am I buddying you, when I have a null read of you?

VOTE: Nero Cain

scummy. no town player goes after ranmaru for their vote/main focus at this junction of the game. almost50 can still go as well

eh wot m8
I've kinda been concerned of buddying from Ran so idk

are you scum this game or just being incredibly bad?

the difference between town ran and scum ran is as clear as night and day. as scum he posts halfassed attempts going nowhere and has none of his characteristic bravado. you should kno this by now and onto the scumlist you go for terrible thoughts

fos gamma

He hasn't seen my scumplay besides The Thing Mafia

Let me read on Klazam. I want Titus as second highest and Brass as highest for WC, 100%. Tell me where to vote to make that happen, I'll do it. Now, a short rant.

How in the fuck did you join in 2011 and yet have no idea that AI means Alignment Indicative and also not know not to go and freakin' throw out a vote you -can't move- on somebody based on what I think you said was like 4 pages of reading, out of a damn 20-something page game. Jesus fuck I hate it when people don't even -skim- the game to catch up before making big calls, AAAAAAAAAGH.

In non-rant news, I still want to hear from ActionDan, and also A50 is 100% scum in my mind if Klazam flips scum, based on the way he just tried to distract from the suddenly building wagon on Klazam with some super weak sauce. Yeah, it was a shitty dumb thing to do that scum -could- have motivation to do, but a vote on pidgey might as well be a non-vote at this juncture, and A50 should know that. Gross.

In 2011 there was no 'AI' term. That and NAI are new terms.

i dont like how quickly klazam wagon formed

why

I'm glad it stalled hard so that we could figure out World Leader votes. I'm critical of Marshy for trying to make it gain a lot of momentum--moreso because, in multiball, he wouldn't have as much of team to propel it. If anyone's scum on that wagon, I'm thinking it's him. That said, if it's multiball, there's a good chance that Klazam is just scum anyway and could be a different team than Marshy, so I'll still take the Klazam lynch because it's better info.

what?

the point of a wagon is to lynch or create pressure. yes i want to put momentum towards it so something can HAPPEN in this game and generate more info/reads

besides

>joins me on wagon
>makes a CASE for the wagon
>shits on the guy who started it

lol @ this guy

What's your read on Varsoon right now

I'm glad it stalled hard so that we could figure out World Leader votes. I'm critical of Marshy for trying to make it gain a lot of momentum--moreso because, in multiball, he wouldn't have as much of team to propel it. If anyone's scum on that wagon, I'm thinking it's him. That said, if it's multiball, there's a good chance that Klazam is just scum anyway and could be a different team than Marshy, so I'll still take the Klazam lynch because it's better info.

Why did you consider Multiball when it came to Marshy and Klazam, though? What are your individual reads of them?

That's great, problem is I've only seen them as scum once so I have less to go on, so please keep in mind who you're talking to
Unless you want to enlighten me that they were scum in Crossover

I was town there

VOTE: Klazam
I am curious. I will follow Varsoon for now.

Why are you following Varsoon? What's your read on him. Why aren't you interacting with me as much?

>Varsoon is speculating about multiball

REEEEEEEEEEEE

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Varsoon

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Question, you said you had notes. I am wondering, what did you have notes on, and what conclusions did you make? I'd like to see that.

I don't like the wagon on gamma. Too many votes on someone who hasn't done anything scum-indicative.

I still Koki is scum but since I don't have new reasons than what I already said I feeling this might be a lost cause.

At first I thought Nero was voting dunk instead of koki because he is not paying enough attention or hasn't though it through. This is clearly not the case and my logic is not 'dumb'. It might be wrong but not dumb. For him to actually think his reasoning is not just more correct but actually superior to mine is scummy. Basically he's too closed-minded to be town and I'm not someone worthy of being buddied so he doesn't care about butting heads with me.

VOTE: nero

I like this post.

TOWN [Ranmaru > Chara > Joey > Marshy > Titus > Varsoon > Action Dan > Shaziro | Dunk > Almost50 > Kokichi > Gamma > Brass > Klazam > Buja > Joda > Pidgey > Assemble | Elbirn > Creature > Nero Cane] SCUM

Thanks for the free read on a guy you have never played with. But this might make you town since town is the only one who feels they need an opinion on EVERYONE.

Like you see, I just put you and others there to lump you all as null. Notice how Assemble, who hasn't even played the game, is closest to the scum part. Doesn't mean I scumread him, just null flat out. When the game develops I'll have more developed reads.

WHY DID NO ONE TOLD ME BRASS WAS CONF TOWN WHILE I WAS REREADING.

Sorry should have made you host.

Now I get why you are mad at me, and now I get not to make votes or posts before fully catching up.

Also im lame

I like this

Vote: Klazam

I got the scum boys

I like this too.

marshy, how are you reading Nero now?

now that i think about our games together, i'm pretty sure my last game with Nero was on my Not Chara account, so i can't exactly count on scum Nero knowing my current meta.

should everyone who knows Ran have him conftown by now? i certainly don't know him, but the game hasn't been on for that long.

pedit: i assumed marshy had played with both Gamma and Ran together a few times. otherwise that does make no sense. :>

Why do you ask Marshy about Nero, what's your read on him?

Hrmmm...Creature, Varsoon, Almost50. If they are all scum, there is undoubtably a team in there somewhere. Guess I'll look for some associatives.

We don't actually have a confirmed scum flip from any of them though. I want you to scum hunt individually right now, not look for associative before a flip. (Write a note down for anything you do see for later though)