NEWBIE 1858: MEDICAL MAFIA (fin)

[Draynth]

@2Create
Why is the OMGUS inherently scummy vs newbish

[ejjinami]

VOTE: 2Create
the last post has the possibility of being AI. actually, everything that sounds like a joke but is obviously thought through and involves voting, could be AI. not sure in what direction yet though

If you're not sure which alignment the post made you think 2create was then why did you vote them anyway?

cuz I noticed him...? dunno, the most interesting target thus far

[2Create]

well, thx for taking your time to write that, that must have been a total pain. Actually, I don't think the shorter answers were that bad. I wouldn't be confident in reading details like those :/ I'd say people normaly aren't very aware of what their play looks like... So if they don't already have stuff they like, they're proud off or sth like that, I wouldn’t ask about it. Even if they answer, the answer might not be completely true and it wouldn't give anything. :/
And you know I kinda liked rei's answer? It didn't contain any details, but she included her motivations. Like, idek what to say here, but that was definitely good.

Your read was definitely good too. Like, you just gave a good sample of your normal reasoning, thx for that. You seem to be the type to write thoroughly about everything. Like, I kinda didn’t like the “Neither is good.” judgmental part of your opening post, but I think I should just read it as “normal fluff”.
And you know that’s absolutely cool? xD I tend to do the same stuff, I started fighting it around 2-3 games ago cuz people were saying it’s a total pain to read my posts. So rn I’m kinda editing my longer posts and cutting stuff out after I write them.
But lol, it’s still cool xD and it’s good to know I won’t be the only active/caring player here.

I'm not basing my reads off how it answers the question here. That's probably good for discussion, which can lead to reads indirectly. I don't see the literal content of anyone's answers here as anything but meaningless or null. The way it was posted, however, can tell me something, an in Rei's case, I do not like it at all.

As for your problem with my "Neither is good", let's view it again.

You're either mafia, or you're confusing town by making an unprompted alignment claim. Neither is good.

Of course, this is fluff, since it was a comment on a username. But if you're confused about my logic here, I'll go into it a little.
Claiming that you're not mafia is of course something that you wouldn't see the inverse off. Claiming mafia is suicide. However, an unprompted alignment or role claim can run ahead of some suspicion, that the person making that claim sees coming. That's usually for nefarious purposes. Town would generally want to be honest here, not claim ahead of time to avoid suspicion later. If you read my report of by best town game I played, someone tried this "claim ahead of time" strategy.
As for why being mafia would be bad, that much should be obvious

And I agree about soul. I played less than a day with him but I think I can say he is exactly the type to do stuff like that as town. I think he might really feel he’s a bad player, so his “running away from playing” shouldn’t be scumread (especially if there was no pressure on him and he did it totally on his own).

My thinking exactly. Using it as an excuse would be a scumtell, but here it's null.

if you’re talking about the questionnaire, scum!I would definitely have more uses of it than town!I… xD lol

Oh dear.
Well, to be fair... I've already said I'm more interested in the manner in which the question was answered than in the actual answer. As far as the questions go, the literal answers themselves are kind of useless. So I guess that might make sense.

btw, @2create I got the feeling you were surprised by how “not on point” were people’s answers and that’s the reason you rewrote yours. If that’s correct, can you tell me what did you think of soul’s answer?

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "not on point", but they all had very little to analyse, hence why I asked for clarification. Discussion is how Town thrives. In that light I also decided to be more detailed, so yeah, I guess you're right.

Anyway, about Soul's answer.
It's not an answer that really tells us much, but it does tell us one thing, so I'm more satisfied with it than Rei's.
It doesn't make sense as a scum or a town play really, since, as I said before, it attracts the wrong kind of attention.
As a specific tell, I think this one should rather than not be counted at all, push the read towards null. It wouldn't fit the pattern for someone playing extremely town, and it wouldn't fit the pattern for someone playing extremely scummy either. It's a odd one out either way. I'd classify it as a newbtell I guess? Anyway, when it's so clearly an odd thing for either side of the reads list, I think it should make the read on someone more moderate.

Reply to your post coming soon, Draynth.

[ejjinami]

Wow holy shit, are you really doing this? Big FOS.
Have you heard of OMGUS? Because this is pretty much it, save for the fact that I didn't actually vote you.
You know, I thought about doing it, but I decided that reads this early on aren't so reliable as to make that worthwhile.
I also dislike voting, and I didn't see the need to put any pressure on, because all I really did was ask you to elaborate. But you're slowly changing my mind by making my read on you more reliable.

Okay, let's pick apart your post now.

I already said why it's a non-answer, so I'm going to skip over that. Next up is your question why I picked the answers to that particular question to dissect.
The answer is simple. Questions 1 and 2 are meta. Question 3 is irrelevant. Question 4 is neither of those things.
Yes, people can lie about how they play. But if someone plays substantially different than what they've said, that's weird, right? So the answer to that question might actually have some repercussions, such as forcing people to be more active. It's a bad thing to say you're a lurker. It's also a bad thing to say you're an active scum hunter and then lurk. So in a sense, getting people to actually go into a bit of detail here might well be a good thing.

As for what I expected it to tell? Not much, really? Just a general outline of your playstyle. That's not a hard thing to accomplish. But what you're doing is not even that. In fact, I'm not even that concerned with the actual answer, just with the way you chose to answer it. Everyone else has given at least something to go by, and moreover, they've been succinct about it.
This is where we get to your post. There has been no one who's said as little while seeming to say as much. And this is a scummy thing. Often, scum will try to dodge questions by seeming to answer them, while giving a non-answer. This is not an important question by any stretch of the imagination, but the fact that you're doing it at all is suspicious.

No comment on the "eye for detail" thing, since I've elaborated in the very post you quoted, and also since it's a lot more substantive than what you have posted. With my answer at least, you might get suspicious of me if I miss or ignore too many obvious tells. With yours, all bets are off.

Good luck finding more than minor reasons for a scumread halfway on page 2 by the way. You've made 2 posts before that. What do you really think I have to go on? I've said with as many words that my reads are not reliable this early on. Why are you making such a big deal out of being placed on my scumlist? Seems like a knee-jerk reaction, which I don't look fondly on, hence my OMGUS accusation.

I'll get to your posts soon, Ejji. Just wanted to get this out of the way first.

agree with Dray, that's a bit of an overreaction... and the last part is kinda defensive... but lol, the main part of the post was "your opinion is stupid", not "and what did you expect from me?", so I don't really think this should be scumread...
and I kinda disagree with you that forcing people to be more active, by having them say stuff in the questionnaire, is good. If it really worked that way, it might make the posts more awkward and scumreading more difficult. :/

[2Create]

@2Create
Why is the OMGUS inherently scummy vs newbish

Hmm. Maybe it is newbish. It could be, but at the same time, on top of the scumread I already have, unreliable as though it may be, this seems to fit the pattern. Maybe it's confirmation bias...
But I'll dive into it a slight bit, all right?

You said "there's a lot of words but it literally tells nothing" but what did you expect it to tell really? Also if you don't like my answer to that question so much, did you like the other answers?

Sounds to me like an attempt at defending a scummy post, as well as trying to deflect discussion from them to others. It's fine if someone doesn't want to be suspected, but that doesn't mean you should make plays like that. Scum are the ones with the secrets here. You should be grateful for the chance to answer for your mistakes, since you have nothing to hide. Hence why I find this suspicious, pushing it to scum rather than newb.

I don't really mind being sused and it's happened to me a lot, but I'd like there to at least be sensible reasoning behind it not some nitpicking.

And yes I'm not afraid of calling out people who sus me for illogical reasons

This I also find kind of jarring, since this is basically calling me out as being illogical for no other reason than having this person at the bottom of my reads list. This is based off one post. I even said my reads aren't strong. I certainly wasn't ready to either vote or FOS.
Even as newbtown, some people are bound to have you low on their reads list. That's not a reason for this disproportionate kneejerk, especially if you're only this low because of an absence of posts to analyse. Not being able to take any suspicion at all, I'd call that scummy, not newb. If I'd voted I'd have more reason to call it newb.

Still, fair point. I may be a bit aggressive. That post is uncalled for simply because of being low on my reads list, though.

[2Create]

EWBOP: uncalled for, for*

[2Create]

Shit I didn't make a typo after all, what am I doing?

[ejjinami]

As for your problem with my "Neither is good", let's view it again.

You're either mafia, or you're confusing town by making an unprompted alignment claim. Neither is good.

Of course, this is fluff, since it was a comment on a username. But if you're confused about my logic here, I'll go into it a little.

no, wait, that's not it. xD I thought more like: "...saying pro-town opinions in a joke? Coooould be maf, wanting to get into a town-mindset early." Like, it sounded sliiiiightly LAMIST.
but lol, it's just fluff. And it wasn't strong in the first place.

[Draynth]

VOTE: 2Create
the last post has the possibility of being AI. actually, everything that sounds like a joke but is obviously thought through and involves voting, could be AI. not sure in what direction yet though

If you're not sure which alignment the post made you think 2create was then why did you vote them anyway?

cuz I noticed him...? dunno, the most interesting target thus far

Do you not see the direct contradiction in what you said and what you did though?

[ejjinami]

VOTE: 2Create
the last post has the possibility of being AI. actually, everything that sounds like a joke but is obviously thought through and involves voting, could be AI. not sure in what direction yet though

If you're not sure which alignment the post made you think 2create was then why did you vote them anyway?

cuz I noticed him...? dunno, the most interesting target thus far

Do you not see the direct contradiction in what you said and what you did though?

are you talking about my last post? I'd say it's not mutually exclusive -_-
do you think it's scummy?

[ejjinami]

oh and could you answer the questions in my 1-st post?

[ejjinami]

VOTE: 2Create
the last post has the possibility of being AI. actually, everything that sounds like a joke but is obviously thought through and involves voting, could be AI. not sure in what direction yet though

If you're not sure which alignment the post made you think 2create was then why did you vote them anyway?

cuz I noticed him...? dunno, the most interesting target thus far

Do you not see the direct contradiction in what you said and what you did though?

are you talking about my last post? I'd say it's not mutually exclusive -_-
do you think it's scummy?

I'm dumb, you're still talking about the vote. That was a RvS vote, not a scumreading vote.
do you find it scummy?

[Rei]

My reason for putting Rei in scum is posting a complete non-answer to Ejji's question 4. Seriously, it doesn't get any more non-answer than that.
Rei contributes?
Rei tries her best to be good, but might not be very good??
Rei is friendly, but can also be unfriendly if paranoid???
This is a lot of words, but it tells us literally nothing.

Again, disagree. It tells what she most remembers about the games… like, idk what to write here, cuz I really think it was good.

and @rei, when writing the answers did you mean “unfriendly when paranoid” or “sometimes paranoid, but uncorrelated with being friendly”?

btw, @2create I got the feeling you were surprised by how “not on point” were people’s answers and that’s the reason you rewrote yours. If that’s correct, can you tell me what did you think of soul’s answer?

I actually never said "unfriendly when paranoid" not once, that's why I find it strange that he's putting words in my mouth. I said I'm usually friendly, but at times I can be paranoid. Maybe the usage of "but" here was wrong since it somehow gave him the impression that I was saying "i'm unfriendly when paranoid", but the friendly part is a thing, and me being paranoid is another thing.
so yes what I meant was “sometimes paranoid, but uncorrelated with being friendly”.

I genuinely find it strange how out of my words you got that I was scum.
Very strange.
How is it a "non-answer"?
What makes this even stranger is that you picked the one question that to me doesn't really mean anything. Anyone can lie about how they play, especially a newbie like me whose gameplay isn't known here, and make it seem like their wolf gameplay is absolutely different from what they're doing now. To me this question doesn't really tell anything, and it could be spun into multiple different meanings. You said "there's a lot of words but it literally tells nothing" but what did you expect it to tell really? Also if you don't like my answer to that question so much, did you like the other answers? What did they tell you then? I'd like to know.

That's very strange as well considering your only answer to no.4 was that you have "an eye for detail" whatever that means.

I don't really mind being sused and it's happened to me a lot, but I'd like there to at least be sensible reasoning behind it not some nitpicking.

And yes I'm not afraid of calling out people who sus me for illogical reasons

so VOTE: 2create why aren't you voting me if I'm scum to you already?

Wow holy shit, are you really doing this? Big FOS.
Have you heard of OMGUS? Because this is pretty much it, save for the fact that I didn't actually vote you.
You know, I thought about doing it, but I decided that reads this early on aren't so reliable as to make that worthwhile.
I also dislike voting, and I didn't see the need to put any pressure on, because all I really did was ask you to elaborate. But you're slowly changing my mind by making my read on you more reliable.

Okay, let's pick apart your post now.

I already said why it's a non-answer, so I'm going to skip over that. Next up is your question why I picked the answers to that particular question to dissect.
The answer is simple. Questions 1 and 2 are meta. Question 3 is irrelevant. Question 4 is neither of those things.
Yes, people can lie about how they play. But if someone plays substantially different than what they've said, that's weird, right? So the answer to that question might actually have some repercussions, such as forcing people to be more active. It's a bad thing to say you're a lurker. It's also a bad thing to say you're an active scum hunter and then lurk. So in a sense, getting people to actually go into a bit of detail here might well be a good thing.

As for what I expected it to tell? Not much, really? Just a general outline of your playstyle. That's not a hard thing to accomplish. But what you're doing is not even that. In fact, I'm not even that concerned with the actual answer, just with the way you chose to answer it. Everyone else has given at least something to go by, and moreover, they've been succinct about it.
This is where we get to your post. There has been no one who's said as little while seeming to say as much. And this is a scummy thing. Often, scum will try to dodge questions by seeming to answer them, while giving a non-answer. This is not an important question by any stretch of the imagination, but the fact that you're doing it at all is suspicious.

No comment on the "eye for detail" thing, since I've elaborated in the very post you quoted, and also since it's a lot more substantive than what you have posted. With my answer at least, you might get suspicious of me if I miss or ignore too many obvious tells. With yours, all bets are off.

Good luck finding more than minor reasons for a scumread halfway on page 2 by the way. You've made 2 posts before that. What do you really think I have to go on? I've said with as many words that my reads are not reliable this early on. Why are you making such a big deal out of being placed on my scumlist? Seems like a knee-jerk reaction, which I don't look fondly on, hence my OMGUS accusation.

I'll get to your posts soon, Ejji. Just wanted to get this out of the way first.

I have no idea what all these big abbreviations are tbh and quite frankly I don't care. Yeah the fact that you didn't vote me is part of what I find suspicious, since I'm scum to you why wouldn't you be voting me? If you think early reads aren't reliable then honestly you wouldn't be making scum and town lists already from 2 posts.
You didn't ask me to elaborate anything really, and let's be honest there's nothing to elaborate there, you just said things I didn't say like me being "unfriendly when paranoid" which wasn't even mentioned. And the rest yes, I said I was a paranoid player and all that stuff you think is a non-answer so what else is there for me to elaborate.
You think my post in non-answer and I disagree, what elaboration did you want really?

I find it nitpicky tbh, and if you had done that to another player and not me I would've still lynched you for it, because that's such a general question that can be understood in many way.
You're saying "I seem to say a lot but there's actually no content" but I've only posted like twice so far. This feels incredibly forced to me.

Listen, this whole thing is subjective. Something that's "an obvious tell" for you may not be an obvious tell for someone else, so I really doubt anyone can say "I sus 2create cause he missed this part and he said he has an eye for detail." Now that just sounds far fetched.

Also for the bolded part, this is exactly why i find it suspicious. Because it seems like you're just trying to force reads. You admit it there's not much to go off from 2 posts, so why place people as scum and town already if it's not enough material and you don't think its reliable. I'm not making a big deal about being sused, like I've said this isn't my first time playing this game and I've been suspected tons of times both as town and wolf, so I'd know better than to react in a way that gets such attention if I was wolf. However, your reasoning simply frustrates me as I always find it pretty bad for town when you just try to force reads and having scum for the sake of having scum.

To me this question doesn't really tell anything, and it could be spun into multiple different meanings. You said "there's a lot of words but it literally tells nothing" but what did you expect it to tell really?

…you know that’s one of the reasons I posted it? xD Like, I’m still quite sure no one except me here will bother trying to fortune-tell from those posts.
And lol, it was not useless. I’m kinda glad you think that way though.

To me, I don't think it would help me in reading someone but if it helps you then good for you.

[2Create]

For your convenience: Abbreviations!

I actually never said "unfriendly when paranoid" not once, that's why I find it strange that he's putting words in my mouth. I said I'm usually friendly, but at times I can be paranoid. Maybe the usage of "but" here was wrong since it somehow gave him the impression that I was saying "i'm unfriendly when paranoid", but the friendly part is a thing, and me being paranoid is another thing.
so yes what I meant was “sometimes paranoid, but uncorrelated with being friendly”.

Fair enough though. I did misinterpret that. Although it doesn't change my opinion on your post.

I have no idea what all these big abbreviations are tbh and quite frankly I don't care. Yeah the fact that you didn't vote me is part of what I find suspicious, since I'm scum to you why wouldn't you be voting me? If you think early reads aren't reliable then honestly you wouldn't be making scum and town lists already from 2 posts.

This is where I disagree. Reads are always valuable, because they're extra information for town, and because Mafia can't really contribute to them without expending effort that will help town in the end. For scum to establish reads, they need to fake scumhunting, which is all the more chance for Town to find slips.
Of course, you're free to find it suspicious regardless, but I think it's helpful.

You didn't ask me to elaborate anything really, and let's be honest there's nothing to elaborate there, you just said things I didn't say like me being "unfriendly when paranoid" which wasn't even mentioned. And the rest yes, I said I was a paranoid player and all that stuff you think is a non-answer so what else is there for me to elaborate.
You think my post in non-answer and I disagree, what elaboration did you want really?

I'll reply to that with what I said before:

I think I'm pretty contributive

Can you elaborate on this answer? It's a bit of a non-answer and does need clarification. In what ways do you contribute? Are you primarily interested in producing reads, or picking people's posts apart in detail? Do you spend a lot of effort building up a case early on, or do you prefer to wait until later on in the day or even until a later day with building a case? These are just some of the ways in which contribution might be measured.

Okay, next up...

I find it nitpicky tbh, and if you had done that to another player and not me I would've still lynched you for it, because that's such a general question that can be understood in many way.
You're saying "I seem to say a lot but there's actually no content" but I've only posted like twice so far. This feels incredibly forced to me.

and

Also for the bolded part, this is exactly why i find it suspicious. Because it seems like you're just trying to force reads. You admit it there's not much to go off from 2 posts, so why place people as scum and town already if it's not enough material and you don't think its reliable. I'm not making a big deal about being sused, like I've said this isn't my first time playing this game and I've been suspected tons of times both as town and wolf, so I'd know better than to react in a way that gets such attention if I was wolf. However, your reasoning simply frustrates me as I always find it pretty bad for town when you just try to force reads and having scum for the sake of having scum.

It's true that you'd only posted twice (once actually, if you exclude contentless posts), but it looks scummy to me.
Sure, after 1 post that's not much to go on, which is

exactly

why I didn't vote or even FOS you, but just because it's one post, that doesn't mean I should let it pass, should I? If one post is scummy, it warrants talking about it regardless. You're reading too much into me putting up a rudimentary list, although I'm grateful for the discussion it's led to.

Listen, this whole thing is subjective. Something that's "an obvious tell" for you may not be an obvious tell for someone else, so I really doubt anyone can say "I sus 2create cause he missed this part and he said he has an eye for detail." Now that just sounds far fetched.

Maybe so. Missing a bunch of more obvious things in that situation would be slightly stronger, but regardless, as weak a case as that example might be, it would lead to discussion. Discussion is good, so long as someone doesn't throw that at town in an attempt to deflect the topic away from them.

[Bins]

I’ll be commuting back home until 11PM EST. The Bulge (back-up mod) will give a VC soon.

Anyone who hasn’t confirmed also has until I get back to post before they are replaced.

[Espeonage]

I have yet to read the posts while I was asleep. However I did skim and notice a question on pacing.

Take this with a grain of salt, but while this game is slow in terms of number of posts, there are a lot more long posts than most games, so this could easily be 7 pages with the amounts of words here. Which is good it means people are engaged. Also makes it harder for people to quickly duck in and make a post with content.

The SE's here, while experienced aren't ones that tend to say a whole lot, and I am a bit of a chain poster myself, so I wouldn't worry too much about it at this point.

I'll have something concrete in the near future.

[Bins]

|Votecount

1.1

|

(1)

Rei

—

Draynth

(1)

ChikenFritters

—

Not_Mafia

(1)

schadd_

—

Espeonage

(1)

Not_Mafia

—

2Create

(2)

2Create

—

ejjinami, Rei

(1)

soulshade55r

—

schadd_

(2)

Not Voting

—

soulshade55r, ChikenFritters

With

9

alive, it's

5

to lynch.

Day 1

will end in

(expired on 2018-03-30 19:48:00)

.

[Draynth]

I'm dumb, you're still talking about the vote. That was a RvS vote, not a scumreading vote.
do you find it scummy?

Hmm, ok. I'm inclined to believe this as it was your first post, but the fact that you appeared to be trying to legitimately justifying the vote is what I find strange (ignoring the logic itself)

[Draynth]

VOTE: Unvote

We're moving out of RVS, and Rei feels like newbTown to me right now

[soulshade55r]

Sorry for being inactive I need to catch up a little bit

[Bins]

Searching for a replacement for ChickenFritters.
Not_Mafia and schadd_ have been prodded.

[Bins]

Shattiel replaces ChickenFritters, please welcome them!

[Shattiel]

VOTE: not_mafia

Suspect name is suspect. You're either mafia, or you're confusing town by making an unprompted alignment claim. Neither is good.
You're going to have to explain

how you dare

to have a funny username, or land yourself a place at the top of my scumlist.

This forced post is scummy
VOTE: 2Create

[Shattiel]

Btw Hi
Idk alot of you guys

[soulshade55r]

Btw Hi
Idk alot of you guys

Hi I know you c:!