VARSOON VARIETY HOUR : GAME SCRAPPED

[OnTheMark]

Honestly his three questions were crap if true.

Paraphrased question 1:
Can anyone gain mana not a part of their role?
A gain of -X is still a gain, in the literal sense
Or if Alisae is scum and the X is factional then already proven.

Paraphrased question 2: is there a Miller?
Chara already rescinded so regardless the odds of another Miller having not claimed are close to nil

Paraphrased question 3: Do scum have factional abilities?
Alignments were after roles so it is 100% necessary for this unless Varsoon handpicked scum. Which since assuming random probably not.

@RR Assume your claim is true:
What categories are there?

[Chara]

Protomen isn't comparable to a towngame of RR's for most of their meta. they were forced to hide things because they were an "anti-town faction". those quotes are important.
that's at Mark. i would say not to worry about them for now, the handling of me in particular got me this read, which sucks, but i'm rather confident in it.

pedit: for question 2, they asked it before i retracted.
for question 1, i also assume it was asked before that was revealed.
question 3: debatable, i think it was valuable to know.

[Reasonably Rational]

Anyways, the part where you guys get involved is..........what do we ask next??? We have a question waiting to be used!

We have already asked questions about "Scum Factional Abilities", "Roles in the game", and "Mana Generation"

can you ask about scum involvement with plane selection, or do we already know they're responsible?

This is in my queue of things to ask about. I think I can ask this exactly since it would likely fall under Scum Factional Abilities, but I can guess that the order in which planes are visited was predetermined. If not, then that means something is making choices, or there's some system in play, perhaps based on mana gained/cards played/deaths that happened that determines what plane we go to next.

I was also thinking of doing the same thing for cards, guessing if the order cards are drawn was predetermined.

-Cerb

@OTM: I asked Varsoon this, and he did not give me an explicit answer. I coupled the question with some examples, and he told me what categories the examples would fall under, but did not give me an explicit list of categories.

[Chara]

i really hope the card drawn order is random, because that would be way more fun.

[Reasonably Rational]

EbWoP: Obviously now that we're outed as a revised version of the "Library Card" from SD2, it should make sense why we don't want the day to just end. Everyone should suggest questions or at the very least agree with already suggested questions so we can make good decisions. I'm not saying we have to let the day run out all the way, but we have the possibility of 7 questions per day phase, so each 48 hours we don't use is one less question we get. (We got to have a question right at the start, so it's at 0h/48h/96h/etc... but not one at the end of the 14th day because Varsoon was awesome and shifted everything up 48 hours so we had one at day start).

Obviously here on day one, it would be absurdly foolish to end the day before 12 days pass and we get 7 questions in and the info out. Hopefully there's a protective and we don't eat the n1 NK, but only an insane scum team would leave our ability in the game so ...


~D

P-edit: I'll have to talk with Cerb about that Chara. I don't agree with your arguments at all, but I'm not going to just be stubborn. I'll think for a bit:

1.) I don't believe a retraction if you had been counterclaimed would have ended any way other than both miller claims being lynched. First you and then the miller before M/Lylo. That's 2 lynches used up from the available pool, no matter how you slice it. That has to be accounted for. We can't just assumed a steamroll victory, and a steamroll win is the only way we don't end up having to worry about running out of mislynches.

2.) You seem awfully certain you won't get lynched despite taking an action that literally has no town utility. You still haven't given reasoning for why you did it. You just said "Nuh uh!" to the consequences I laid out.

3.) Varsoon strongly dislikes alignment cops. He has restricted our ability so it cannot be used to discern alignment (outside of someone playing very badly). There WAS a cop in Protomen, but that was a super unique setup with most of the game being survivors and then two small factions, one of which HAD to win quickly or become the enemy of the survivors. I don't recall any other alignment cop as a role in a Varsoon game, except maybe as a 1-shot ability (like the one we used on Titus in Protomen). Therefore it doesn't really budge the needle when you say that you would investigate as town because ... there's probably not an alignment cop.

4.) Please do feel free to explain why you did it. The only possible reason I saw was you mentioning your crusade against millers being policy lynched.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Honestly his three questions were crap if true.

Paraphrased question 1:
Can anyone gain mana not a part of their role?
A gain of -X is still a gain, in the literal sense
Or if Alisae is scum and the X is factional then already proven.

Paraphrased question 2: is there a Miller?
Chara already rescinded so regardless the odds of another Miller having not claimed are close to nil

Paraphrased question 3: Do scum have factional abilities?
Alignments were after roles so it is 100% necessary for this unless Varsoon handpicked scum. Which since assuming random probably not.

@RR Assume your claim is true:
What categories are there?

I mistakenly believed that each question had to be asked 48 hours after the last one. So, I submitted my first question in pregame, to be asked at the start of D1, my second question shortly after Chara claimed, to be asked as soon as the previous timer expired, and my third was submitted about 5 hours after the 144 hour mark, because I took a nap on Sunday.

I also confirmed with Varsoon(in relation to the miller question) that he was not taking my guesses in the most absolute literal sense, and that even if my phrasing did not match his, he would pay attention to the intent of the guess. I will confirm with him that he(someone who studied creative writing) did not consider the possibility that +(-x) would mean he should always say the answer was correct.

And yes, the third one wasn't necessary at all, but like the Chara one, it was something that I need confirmed, so as to minimize the assumptions made in the game. It also allows for future questions to be asked with more precision, and less uncertainty about the reasons why a guess was deemed incorrect.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Honestly his three questions were crap if true.

Paraphrased question 1:
Can anyone gain mana not a part of their role?
A gain of -X is still a gain, in the literal sense
Or if Alisae is scum and the X is factional then already proven.

Paraphrased question 2: is there a Miller?
Chara already rescinded so regardless the odds of another Miller having not claimed are close to nil

Paraphrased question 3: Do scum have factional abilities?
Alignments were after roles so it is 100% necessary for this unless Varsoon handpicked scum. Which since assuming random probably not.

@RR Assume your claim is true:
What categories are there?

Don't be silly. We made sure that Varsoon wasn't giving us misleading responses. I.E. the argument that losing mana is really just adding a negative is both pedanting and already ruled out. You talked about us like you know us, but you think we would overlook that? Or ... were you just straw manning?

We also asked about the miller

BEFORE

Chara retracted, so you can sit on a cactus and spin trying to peddle that bullshit.

And finally ... this is a fucking VARSOON Game. Either you aren't who I think you are, or you're intentionally pretending you don't know that Varsoon does crazy cool shit and that it's completely unsafe to assume anything, no matter how safe such assumptions would be in any other game.

GTFO with your bullshit fallacious shit. Come back when you can demonstrate some rational thinking.

~D

P-Edit: Cerb ... Varsoon already confirmed it's not adding a negative.

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh right. Drixx is correct. We sought clarification on our first question, because given that the game rules stated that planes will affect mana generation, we wanted to make sure he hadn't accidentally given us an answer to something which is publicly known, and he stated that the rules do not say if the planes will positively or negatively affect mana generation, while our question DID specify that it would be positive, therefore the question was acceptable.

Man.

I'm smarter than I remember being.

-Cerb

[Chara]

1.) I don't believe a retraction if you had been counterclaimed would have ended any way other than both miller claims being lynched. First you and then the miller before M/Lylo. That's 2 lynches used up from the available pool, no matter how you slice it. That has to be accounted for. We can't just assumed a steamroll victory, and a steamroll win is the only way we don't end up having to worry about running out of mislynches.

the second hypothetical miller being lynched before mylo/lylo wouldn't have been my fault after retracting. they would be the only miller claim, them being lynched later has nothing to do with whether or not i fakeclaimed. see point 2 for the rest.

2.) You seem awfully certain you won't get lynched despite taking an action that literally has no town utility. You still haven't given reasoning for why you did it. You just said "Nuh uh!" to the consequences I laid out.

i've never been mislynched. the only time it's happened was once, while hydraing with Almost, so it doesn't count as me being lynched. (especially when, as stated by multiple players, it was his actions that got us lynched. this isn't me shifting blame to you, Almost. you know what i mean. <3 )
so yes, i'm very confident.

3.) Varsoon strongly dislikes alignment cops. He has restricted our ability so it cannot be used to discern alignment (outside of someone playing very badly). There WAS a cop in Protomen, but that was a super unique setup with most of the game being survivors and then two small factions, one of which HAD to win quickly or become the enemy of the survivors. I don't recall any other alignment cop as a role in a Varsoon game, except maybe as a 1-shot ability (like the one we used on Titus in Protomen). Therefore it doesn't really budge the needle when you say that you would investigate as town because ... there's probably not an alignment cop.

i'm aware. if i'm aware that Varsoon doesn't like alignment cops, i'm aware that fakeclaiming miller doesn't actually do anything to make me less likely to be guiltied. i

did

also specify a gunsmith-type investigation would return an ability to kill.
though he did make a miller-type in SU2. that's what i modeled the fakeclaim after.

4.) Please do feel free to explain why you did it. The only possible reason I saw was you mentioning your crusade against millers being policy lynched.

well, i already answered this, i assume you just haven't read it yet.

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey Chara, why did you think your miller claim would make you be scumread?

It's actually been my experience that miller claims do the exact opposite, barring counterclaims, unless you already have pressure on you.

-Cerb

[Chara]

Hey Chara, why did you think your miller claim would make you be scumread?

It's actually been my experience that miller claims do the exact opposite, barring counterclaims, unless you already have pressure on you.

-Cerb

they can do that if they're true. mine was a lie, so i figured it would be revealed as such eventually.

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey Chara, why did you think your miller claim would make you be scumread?

It's actually been my experience that miller claims do the exact opposite, barring counterclaims, unless you already have pressure on you.

-Cerb

they can do that if they're true. mine was a lie, so i figured it would be revealed as such eventually.

Why did you reveal that it was a lie then? Given that your goal was for it to be revealed, and you to be scumread as a result, why preempt the usage of abilities to confirm that your claim was false? By preempting them, rather than letting town waste them as scum would have done, you negated any possible benefit from your play.

-Cerb

[Chara]

when the time came where i was actually under pressure, despite the real lack of a wagon i got scared of actually being mislynched, i retracted earlier than planned. i was going to do it at the end of the day. and at the time i was upset with myself for freaking out even though the pressure on was on purpose. i imagine Almost does that sort of thing (not necessarily fakeclaiming, but getting pressure in general) because he's much more calm under it.

[Reasonably Rational]

2a.) that wasn't my explanation for why i did it. i haven't explained why i did it.

where'd you get the impression i did it because of a meta-point, Drixx?

i did it because i wanted to be scumread.

that's the reason. i decided that i wasn't going to be mislynched for it because scum buddy me and i can reliably obvtown to most kinds of players, so it seemed an alright risk to take. it's too bad your role-related question was wasted because of it, but i don't think the tradeoff was that bad.

That's really not a very well thought out reason. That's it ... you just wanted to scum yourself up and didn't think through the potential consequences?

~D

[Chara]

Why did you reveal that it was a lie then? Given that your goal was for it to be revealed, and you to be scumread as a result, why preempt the usage of abilities to confirm that your claim was false? By preempting them, rather than letting town waste them as scum would have done, you negated any possible benefit from your play.

what? the reason i retracted before the rolecop was used so that it wouldn't be wasted on me. sure, if i was

scum

, i would let town waste them, but i don't want that. i felt terrible when you told me you'd wasted a power and how upset you were.

but the real reason is probably what i said in my last post: i don't do well under pressure. historically i pretty much freak out whenever i think i'll be lynched. so i preemptively retracted to avoid being "guiltied".

[Gamma Emerald]

Dunnstral has been a point of contention in certain circles

tell me more

I'm wondering what is meant by saying I'm a "point of contention" - am I?

I feel like you are: some people have strong reads on you causing curiousity about the situation

[Chara]

That's really not a very well thought out reason. That's it ... you just wanted to scum yourself up and didn't think through the potential consequences?

i thought it through! i just didn't account for day abilities that might be wasted on me, or something like a dayvig.
playing anti-town in another way seemed too damaging, purposefully lurking even more so, and most other fakeclaims might accidentally out a PR. so i went with a fake miller, because i knew where to get a fakeclaim source (SU2), i wouldn't accidentally out any town abilities besides another negative-utility (such as investigation-immune, who should really be claiming anyway), and also because i just like the role.

[Reasonably Rational]

(For the record, Chara, I wasn't actually upset with you. As I said, it was annoying, but since we theoretically have a lot of guesses to make, it didn't hurt as much as if I had spent a one shot ability on it or something...and if it had required something like that, we probably wouldn't have done it).

So, the situation as you laid it out is as such:

1) You fake claimed miller in order to be scumread, confident in your ability to keep from being lynched.
2) Upon being scumread, you freaked out, lost the aforementioned confidence, and immediately retracted the claim.

That about sums it up?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Well we will have some time to consider. I think it would be overtly anti-town for someone to end the day before we ask questions so ... I'll talk more with Cerb.

~D

[Chara]

1) You fake claimed miller in order to be scumread, confident in your ability to keep from being lynched.
2) Upon being scumread, you freaked out, lost the aforementioned confidence, and immediately retracted the claim.

1) is correct. 2) is mostly correct. i was still confident about it, but there's only so much one can do against a straight guilty. and i figured claiming then would still be like i was "guiltied" (since my claim timing was pretty scummy in and of itself) but without the waste of the role-copy ability.
something i forgot to mention was i thought part of my role would clear me, but it was right then that beeboy helpfully reminded me roles have nothing to do with alignment. (i'd thought it was just flavour) so my safety net disappeared and i panicked.

[Reasonably Rational]

@OTM:

Varsoon has specified that any situation where, after the resolution of it, someone has more mana than before, will be considered mana gain. Any situation where they have less than before, is considered mana loss. He also told us that he did not make up a list of categories because he didn't want our guesses to be limited by the categories he came up with. Though he could tell us the categories he thought up when making the role up, he's sure we could come up with ones he did not consider.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Chara: Is there any reason why scum!you, upon making a fake miller claim and being placed at risk of exposure, wouldn't behave the exact way you did in this game?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I mean, you've even said you're bad at scum before, and that was a bad idea.

-Cerb

[Chara]

@Chara: Is there any reason why scum!you, upon making a fake miller claim and being placed at risk of exposure, wouldn't behave the exact way you did in this game?

-Cerb

there's no reason! that's why i was confused about all of the townreads i got for it.

and in particular beeboy's "this wasn't the scum response i was looking for", which he still needs to elaborate on.

[Reasonably Rational]

I mean ... you didn't give any of the anticipated responses I expected if you were scum. Not anything that makes me think town but also none of the things I thought of that would reinforce a scum read. As always, you are difficult to read early. Probably need to make the creature rule the Creature and Chara rule ;p

~D