Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Oxy]

@sajj I'll just wait until you get a response, then. Excuse me for interrupting.

[ofrhz]

Very early to say but I wouldn't mind a wagon on one of the lurkers at some point today tbqh

I actually agree with this

[ruru]

I know that high effort =/= town, but still, starting to get the feeling that there's a scum in the 2 that haven't posted just based on the behavior of most of the speaking players.

Very early to say but I wouldn't mind a wagon on one of the lurkers at some point today tbqh

Which posts made you change your mind and why?

[Scioness Sajj]

@sajj I'll just wait until you get a response, then. Excuse me for interrupting.

I don't understand what exactly you meant by asking if my question is serious of not, if you can answer that without answering for wth0s, I'm game.

[Oxy]

You have this generic gut read on me that you want to push that you can't really explain. If I were to be mislynched today and players were looking for scum on my wagon Day 2 there's nothing that they can pinpoint to you. Reasoning is important. First piece of evidence you have posted was 44 but you backed off immidiately.

Why were you worried about being mislynched less than 24 hours into game with one vote on you?

[Oxy]

ebwop @sajj I can't. I'll wait.

[Scioness Sajj]

I was not worried, I used it as an example to explain my point.

[Oxy]

If you weren't worried about being lynched based on a vague reason, why would it matter that my reasoning was vague?

[Scioness Sajj]

I believe 54 is the answer to this question.

[Oxy]

That made me laugh. Okay, I'll resist the urge to go around in circles.

[Oxy]

You said that "The devil is in the details."
Do you often find scum by finding details that don't add up in their reads?

[Scioness Sajj]

I find this idiom to work in life. This is my first game I'm actually scumhutning, so I have yet to find scum this wat, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work.

[skitter30]

@skitter30
Their misunderstandings have not caused me to change my reads on them.

Why not? If I understand correctly, you're townreading them for dropping an argument after they realized they misunderstood something. But you say that they later started/continued an argument because of misunderstandings, so why doesn't that affect anything?

(also I'm a she btw)

Based on this and other responses I don't find you particularly scummy, not enough to leave my vote overnight.

Getting slight townpings from this (but I wouldn't go so far so as to call this obvtown - 70)

I actually agree with this

I don't really know if doing so will accomplish much; they'll get replaced if they don't post in a couple of days.

I'm getting a pretty strong town vibe from ofrhz.

[Oxy]

Spoiled because wall. (and it is a wall, I'm so sorry)

Spoiler:

I've been putting some thought into why I had scum alarm bells ringing for Sajj, and whether or not they were legitimate concerns. When I began my iso, I began thinking that your questions seemed awfully forced - By this I mean that it is difficult for scum to find good things to ask about, so they end up asking questions that either have obvious answers, or are likely to produce answers that are NAI :

Examples: 27 has a clear answer in 23

1. I don't know why you assumed ofrhz is uncomfortable with rvs, 16 pretty clearly states they are indifferent. 2. why is bolded part bolded? 3. making mistakes like that is nai imo.

(no, 16 and 22 show that he has little to zero experience with rvs, and thus can't be comfortable with it.)

47 and 54 make me think that I might not be giving you enough of the benefit of the doubt. Starting to think that we were talking past each other.

And then I read 56, full, and

You are basing your read on me on a really vague content.

When scumhunting I look for instances where people show town emotions, thoughts, motivations, etc. It's difficult for scum to fake the emotions of town - the paranoia, frustration, stress that comes from not knowing who is what alignment.


As a corollary I think it's easier for scum to find small errors in one's memory of an event, or reasoning for a case than it is to try and identify "fake" town emotions in people they KNOW are town. Town, knowing that they must find scum and working from an information disadvantage are as likely (more so, perhaps?) to make small errors.

On the other hand, after these evolutions, I'm more inclined to townread 17 in the same way I townread Ofrhz.

tl;dr I don't agree that the devil is in the details, and as such I think some of your interactions are more likely to come from scum than from town. However, genuinely different approaches to finding scum would make those interactions NAI.

So at the end of all of that? Null, I guess. You're a tough egg. Really, I just hope I'm never asked to evaluate you in lylo.

@Skitter30 I apologize if I used the wrong pronouns. I'll do my best not to let it happen again. I have detailed the interaction in the following spoiler

Spoiler:

I want to hear from him and I think we have a better chance of that than of hearing from people who have been AFK for a longer time.

I don’t think lurking is a scum tell and the game just opened so wanting to hear from people who’ve been “afk for a long time”? That’s just grasping at straws

This clearly misunderstands Ruru's statement.

Others have "last visited" date earlier than him. This is what I mean by "longer time". So they are less likely to be online and lurking, and more likely to be just offline. I picked him because his was most recent, making it more likely that my vote will lead to him posting.

Ruru Clarifies

My b, I read afk for long instead of afk for longer time

After this Ofrhz completely drops the argument that (paraphrased) Ruru was grasping at straws by voting someone who had been "afk for a long time."

They continued to talk past each other, sure, but it's unrelated.
By going back and making this, the genuine towniness of the following is clear as day.

My b, I read afk for long instead of afk for longer time

He wrote this quickly, as evidenced by the sentence construction. Thus, it's more likely to be stream of consciousness than calculated, and the tone reads as chagrined, not caught. This is a town post!

[ruru]

Oxy: I get that you're townreading me because we had similar thoughts about how to approach the game (or so you say), but why are you

so

sure?

Also, I have a question for everyone here. If you could choose your role at the beginning of the game, which would you prefer?

[Oxy]

eth0s ITT:
-Vote inactive
-"activity is NAI - let's stop talking about lurking"
-4/5 of following posts suggesting or debating merits of putting a wagon on an inactive.

66 - anti-town isn't necessarily AI, but it can be.
@Eth0s Readlist please

VOTE: Eth0s

Readlist:

Spoiler:

Very Town

Ofrhz
Ruru

Town lean

Null

Skitter30
Scioness Sajj

Scum lean

Eth0s

Very Scum

P-edit @ruru That post screams town. You're clearly not very familiar with this site's meta. Presumably in shorter time period games it's not safe to leave a vote overnight if you aren't confident because a wagon and a quick hammer/forced claim might occur before you return. Scum is usually more cautious about changing votes or not voting because they don't want to unnecessarily bring attention to themselves. Would I take this read to Lylo without reevaluation? No. Would I lynch you D1? Never. Heck, even asking why I townread you deserves a very very light town read.
Would choose VT because scumhunting is the most fascinating part of this game by a mile.

[Drixx]

VOTE: eth0s

Has a recent Last visited date and hasn't posted yet.

I see that this has already been talked about to some extent, but I did want to say a little more about this post.

Generally speaking, it is scummy to be around but ignoring a particular game. Many of us who have been playing for a long time play multiple games in different queues at the same time. For example: I have a game going on right now where I am in my hydra "Reasonably Rational" with Cerberus v666. I point this out because context is super important when it comes to determining whether someone is actually avoiding a game. Generally you should only conclude that someone is "actively lurking" if you see that they are playing other games and spending enough time on site that it is actually more likely they are avoiding the game in question than simply didn't get to it yet. I cycle through my ongoing games (usually in the order they are opened in my browser, which has no real organization other than all the MS tabs are together), as an example, so you might see me on but no posts will hit a given game for a couple hours or more (depending on how much reading and thinking and such I need to do).

So ... that's kind of a bit of a guide to when you should actually conclude something about someone being absent. Only if you can be very sure they are actively lurking should you consider it scummy (and even then; be careful!).

The other aspect of it is ethics. Many players choose to log on invisible sometimes or all the time because of profile skimming being used against them in the way you did. Even if it is actually the case that someone actively dodging a game is scum more often than not (and that's not a proposition I would even accept without some evidence), it's kind of a sleazy way to play the game. Mafia is about reading people and intentions, and about rhetoric. Checking the last time someone visited the site doesn't really demonstrate any skill or bring any value to the game.

---

@mod: For the next couple weeks I will still be very busy on Tuesdays and Thursdays. It's not super huge but wanted you to know.

---

Those things out of the way. Hi. I'm Drixx. I'm a mafiaholic coming off a roughly 1/3 year break from playing. Had a series of really intense and time consuming games through most of 2017 and just needed to unwind from that.

I am the IC this game. I used to have a copy and paste introduction that I would employ in newbie games. I think that's probably not super necessary now that the newbie queue thread has quite a lot to say on the topic. I'll just briefly summarize:

I'm just an experienced player who likes to play with new players on site and tinker around with various strategies and playstyles. My role and alignment were randomized just like yours. I will respond to questions about the basics of the game and consensus theory concerning various aspects of the game, or bring up the topics myself as appropriate. As much as it is humanly possible to do so, I will be completely honest in any answers or game related comments I make. Bear in mind that an honest answer can still lead you in the wrong direction. You should evaluate me and be as suspicious of me as you are anyone else until you have sufficient reason to trust me.

That's pretty much it for the moment. I'm glad to see a lot of new names and look forward to a fun game with you all.

[ruru]

The other aspect of it is ethics. Many players choose to log on invisible sometimes or all the time because of profile skimming being used against them in the way you did. Even if it is actually the case that someone actively dodging a game is scum more often than not (and that's not a proposition I would even accept without some evidence), it's kind of a sleazy way to play the game. Mafia is about reading people and intentions, and about rhetoric. Checking the last time someone visited the site doesn't really demonstrate any skill or bring any value to the game.

Are you speaking here as IC or as a player?

[ofrhz]

P-edit @ruru That post screams town. You're clearly not very familiar with this site's meta.

Presumably in shorter time period games it's not safe to leave a vote overnight if you aren't confident because a wagon and a quick hammer/forced claim might occur before you return

(1). Scum is usually more cautious about changing votes or not voting because they don't want to unnecessarily bring attention to themselves. Would I take this read to Lylo without reevaluation? No. Would I lynch you D1? Never.

Heck, even asking why I townread you deserves a very very light town read.

(2)
Would choose VT because scumhunting is the most fascinating part of this game by a mile.

1. I don't agree with this analysis. Ruru was the only vote on me, I was really not in danger of being hammered. I've only skimmed a few games on this site so far, but I haven't come across a quick hammer D1 yet.
2. What motivation does town have to understand why others town read them?

[skitter30]

@Skitter30 I apologize if I used the wrong pronouns. I'll do my best not to let it happen again.

All's good!

@oxy:

My reads are trending kinda similar to yours, so I'm trying to figure out what's bothering me about them. I guess your confidence this early on is making me a little bit wary. Like confidentally townbinning ruru and orfhz this early is a little weird, and the fact that you don't seem super interested in re-evaluating them is kinda bothering me. It kinda feels to me like you want to check the box of 'finding townreads', and once you've done so, you don't think you need to revisit the read.

Like you seem very eager and try-hard, and like you very much do not want to misstep. I feel like you often say the 'correct' thing, something you think people want to hear, or something that will make you look town. Like the reason you gave for why you want to be a VT.

Or these:

Spoiler:

So at the end of all of that? Null, I guess.

You're a tough egg. Really, I just hope I'm never asked to evaluate you in lylo

.

Now that you're back, I'm interested in starting to form another read.

cum!Oxy would have likely used the original image, had he bothered to make an image at all, since it would give him an excuse to passively wait for his RVS target to show up.

It just matters that I get to engage with you so that I can begin to formulate a read on you

And so on.

Like I'm overall getting the vibe that you're saying these things to demonstrate you're acting in a pro-town fashion. It kinda feels artificial, like you're making sure to include phrases like this so that everyone sees how much thought you're putting into your reads. It feels like you're telling me that you're forming reads, instead of showing me that you are.

All of this together is making me kinda wary on your slot, but I'm still trying to work out if I think these are eager *newb* tells (ie you're eager to play and want to make sure you're doing it right) or *scum* (ie you're looking for towncred so that you don't get lynched) tells; I haven't come to a firm conclusion either way yet.

I do think I'm going to keep my vote on you for now though cuz this is the best lead I have; although I'm not confident on scum!you, it is no longer an RVS vote as I'm getting more scumvibes from you right now than anyone else.

---------

Also, I have a question for everyone here. If you could choose your role at the beginning of the game, which would you prefer?

VT cuz then I don't have to play around trying to avoid the nk.

---------

Had a series of really intense and time consuming games through most of 2017 and just needed to unwind from that.

Sorry if TB's newbie contributed to that

But welcome back!

[Oxy]

Welcome Drixx!
@ofrhz 1) I haven't seen any quickhammers d1 in my skims either, and I agree you weren't in danger. That was my point. The shorter time period games I was referencing were the games that ruru referenced playing on some other site earlier. That it was unnecessary in this game and this site's meta was actually the basis for the read.
2) Town is often suspicious of attempts to pocket them. Scum, on the other hand, is just happy not to get lynched.

P-edit @skitter30 It's about time you move away from that RVS vote.
I'm definitely trying hard. Newb? =( The truth hurts.
I'm not actively trying to look scummy (obv), but I don't think I'm focusing on avoiding missteps, either. Hmm.. Will evaluate in postgame.
I'm not interested in reevaluating my two town reads D1. Nope, not happening. Day 2 and onwards? You bet I will.

What are your thoughts on Eth0s?

[ofrhz]

Also, I have a question for everyone here. If you could choose your role at the beginning of the game, which would you prefer?

mafia roleblocker

[eth0s]

Large spoiler isn't working here sorry.

@eth0s - what made you change your mind about ruru's motivations between these two posts?

where did I change my stance?

Post 33 you say that ruru was probably not trying to look town based on her actions from earlier and there was not enough info at this time. I take this to mean that you think her earlier actions were NAI.
Post 36 Sajj says her initial assessment of ruru’s actions seems like forced lamist which could be AI
Post 45 suggests you agree with Sajj’s assessment but someone can’t at once not be trying to look town and lamist, the two are contradictory

Oh that's because I don't think she was trying to look town, I think she was trying to look "so town" or in other words I think LAMIST was part of her plan. Hopefully that makes sense.

At this point three people are saying that lurking is not scummy. Considering that it is three and not two, maybe I'm just wrong about what is good play. But to me the idea that lurking is completely neutral is strange. (And I realize PRs might have reason to lurk, but in 7/9 setups town PRs are 1:1 mafia and in 2/9 setups town PRs are 1:2 mafia, so lynching a random non-VT player should be a good thing.)

umm. actually lynching a scum or VT would be the best bet. Why would you say that lynching a PR is better than lynching a VT?

@eth0s I don't think we should lynch a random lurker, but your response - misunderstanding or purposeful mischaracterization?

I also don't think we should lynch a random lurker. wagon =/= lynch. So I don't think you should imply that I said that. Also I didn't misunderstand or misrep ruru. She said "so lynching a random non-VT player should be a good thing". That sentence just doesn't sit well with me. Obviously lynching scum is a good idea but why imply that VT is the worst thing to lynch? That just doesn't make any sense.

I know that high effort =/= town, but still, starting to get the feeling that there's a scum in the 2 that haven't posted just based on the behavior of most of the speaking players.

Very early to say but I wouldn't mind a wagon on one of the lurkers at some point today tbqh

Which posts made you change your mind and why?

Nothing that I could pinpoint "changed my mind". It's just that you're the only person posting that I find remotely scummy so far. Now there isn't much to work with but still, I'm saying we should pressure a lurker into posting.

eth0s ITT:
-Vote inactive
-"activity is NAI - let's stop talking about lurking"
-4/5 of following posts suggesting or debating merits of putting a wagon on an inactive.

66 - anti-town isn't necessarily AI, but it can be.
@Eth0s Readlist please

VOTE: Eth0s

Readlist:

Spoiler:

Very Town

Ofrhz
Ruru

Town lean

Null

Skitter30
Scioness Sajj

Scum lean

Eth0s

Very Scum

P-edit @ruru That post screams town. You're clearly not very familiar with this site's meta. Presumably in shorter time period games it's not safe to leave a vote overnight if you aren't confident because a wagon and a quick hammer/forced claim might occur before you return. Scum is usually more cautious about changing votes or not voting because they don't want to unnecessarily bring attention to themselves. Would I take this read to Lylo without reevaluation? No. Would I lynch you D1? Never. Heck, even asking why I townread you deserves a very very light town read.
Would choose VT because scumhunting is the most fascinating part of this game by a mile.

1. not giving you a readlist because I don't need to.
2. Yeah I have been talking about lurking more than I intended to. That is hypocritical so I will give you that.
3. I can still put pressure on an inactive with my vote without wanting to talk about lurking
4. The reason why I think that talking about lurking for a long time is bad, is that when lurkers see that certain players are lenient towards lurking, it can make them comfortable doing it. Which is not something that any good town player wants going on.

Welcome Drixx!
@ofrhz 1) I haven't seen any quickhammers d1 in my skims either

I've seen a few quickhammers in the newbie queue just fyi

@Drixx

is part of your reasoning for sparing us the IC copy paste because you think that the people in this game seem like pretty capable mafia players?

[skitter30]

P-edit @skitter30 It's about time you move away from that RVS vote.
I'm definitely trying hard. Newb? =( The truth hurts.
I'm not actively trying to look scummy (obv), but I don't think I'm focusing on avoiding missteps, either. Hmm.. Will evaluate in postgame.
I'm not interested in reevaluating my two town reads D1. Nope, not happening. Day 2 and onwards? You bet I will.

What are your thoughts on Eth0s?

I just explained that my vote is no longer RVS. It doesn't mean that I'm confident you're scum, but it does mean that you're giving me scummy vibes, and you're the scummiest person I've seen so far. I don't really like that you're kinda trying to brush off my vote by misrepping it as an RVS vote when I just said it wasn't RVS anymore.

I don't think you're actively trying to look scummy, but rather the opposite: that you're going out of your way to look townie, in a way that looks kinda artificial to me.

I feel like it's *waaaaay* too early to be that confident about your townreads given that it's like page 4, and a day into the game. Why wouldn't you try to re-evaluate them this phase?

I don't have significant thoughts on eth0s right now tbh; nothing he's said thus far really feels AI to me yet.

[Drixx]

The other aspect of it is ethics. Many players choose to log on invisible sometimes or all the time because of profile skimming being used against them in the way you did. Even if it is actually the case that someone actively dodging a game is scum more often than not (and that's not a proposition I would even accept without some evidence), it's kind of a sleazy way to play the game. Mafia is about reading people and intentions, and about rhetoric. Checking the last time someone visited the site doesn't really demonstrate any skill or bring any value to the game.

Are you speaking here as IC or as a player?

The ethics consideration is my personal opinion. I feel like profile scumming is significantly outside of the bounds of good mafia play (and honestly it isn't even really playing mafia at all). I think most long time players probably agree, but I speak only for myself on that.

The warning which preceded that is, I think, pretty much common sense.