Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Scioness Sajj]

ebwop:
not 'explained by', 'answered by'.

Welcome, pinturicchio.

Forgot to vote ealier.
VOTE: ruru

[pinturicchio]

[...] I already convinced myself that Oxy is scum and that his partner is either ruru or ofrhz because of the early towncred to both.

Early on, skitter also said me and ruru were slightly town (post 87). By this line of reasoning, would she also partnered with one of us?

In that same post you're talking about (87) skitter says she's getting townvibes instead of obv!towning ruru. So no, not the same.

[pinturicchio]

ebwop:
not 'explained by', 'answered by'.

Welcome, pinturicchio.

Forgot to vote ealier.
VOTE: ruru

Thanks! By the way, someone already talked about Newbie 1851 and I read that game too; you are on my watch list because of that game, you blended in so good! But I'm townleaning you for now, because the 1v1 with Oxy is an SvT and you are the T.

I'm having trouble catching up, why the vote on ruru? Help good ol' Pin please

[Oxy]

I'm going to be away until evening EST, but I'll put in some effort then, so feel free to leave me any questions. Ideally, Eth0s follows up on the quote below while I am gone.

Will elaborate when I have more time. Should be available within next 14 hours. Almost done being super bust for awhile.

I only realized just this moment that your name is not Heisenberg. lol

Pinturicchio, could you please give us your thoughts on Ruru and Ofrhz? From your PoV, there are only three players in need of examination, so I expect you've put some thought into it? I would be interested in your thoughts on others as well, to a lesser extent.

[Drixx]

If Ofrhz is scum, then Oxy almost certainly is. That was a pretty blatant post connecting them at the hip. I suppose it could be an intentional fake out... but that would require a tremendous level of self awareness to realize how he would react if he was paired with Oxy and someone pointed it out and then actually react exactly that way and hit all the right notes.

[ofrhz]

In that same post you're talking about (87) skitter says she's getting townvibes instead of obv!towning ruru. So no, not the same.

Fair

If Ofrhz is scum, then Oxy almost certainly is.

That was a pretty blatant post

connecting them at the hip. I suppose it could be an intentional fake out... but that would require a tremendous level of self awareness to realize how he would react if he was paired with Oxy and someone pointed it out and then actually react exactly that way and hit all the right notes.

Which post are you referring to: 20 or 245?

[ofrhz]

No, not at all. Bolded sentence is a follow up on the two pevious sentances. I believe that the part you quote is pretty clear in itself, so I don't know what to explain and bolded part doesn't really refer to your question?

OK I get what you were trying to say in the original quote now, my b. I misunderstood

[ruru]

Ok guys its really late here in Chile and I tried to read everything but somewhere in between became really difficult, and I already convinced myself that Oxy is scum and that his partner is either ruru or ofrhz because of the early towncred to both. A lot of scum motivation there, gives free credit to his partner by giving credit to two players instead of one. The towncred he gives to both is so random I really can't see any other explanation. Also his 1v1 with Scioness seems like building the first mislynch of the game, and he's doing quite good, but nah, you're scum.
VOTE: Oxy

Interesting. Do you think ofrhz has acted scummy?

Also, if you could pick your role, which role would you prefer and why?

I did spend most of my game time yesterday rereading Oxy vs Sajj and newbie 1859.

You mean 1851?

Yes

One other thing I noticed is she likes to not-answer people's questions by asking them a question instead. I think she is doing this more here than she did in 1859.

Could you quote some examples?

31 (Reason or not, the end result is that the questions got answered FILO)
(I falsely remembered 36 as being an example, too, but you did also answer in the same post so scratch this one)
73
111 (Even after answering your question in 118, I still I had to prod you in 160 to get an answer)

In the original you have said that I didn't answer those question but I did answer everything but 73. So is your original point that instead of answering questions I ask questions or that before I answer qestions I ask questions and then answer?

It's that sometimes your first response when questioned is to ask a question, not to answer the question.

I think I have addressed all the things from yesterday, if I have missed anything let me know. I will be bearly present or not all through the weekend, so people with have time to catch up.

Yes, I would probably be

trying to lynch you right

now if you never answered the original questions at all.

There is no question in my post there, what exactly are you implying?

I originally thought this was about the same subject as the previous paragraph, but now I see I misread it. I'm implying that refusing to answer questions at all would be really scummy, but it's not what you did.

Hmm...

I think my post is calling her difficult to read, not particularly scummy.

It's interesting that you read it that way. Do you want me to think she is scummy? Would you like to see a wagon on her? If I took your post as motivation to vote, even though you don't find her scummy, would you be held accountable for the wagon?

She's been under pressure all game, but

it hasn't helped me develop a read.

Personally I would lynch her only as a last resort if we don't accomplish anything before then.

And since we have a lot of posts on Oxy vs Sajj, I would be much more interested in seeing reactions from someone else at this point. Like you!

I'm confused by the chnage of your stance here. Elaborate, please?

Hmm, how did my stance change? I'm not sure what you're asking.

Also, do you know or are you guessing what you were trying to say in your orginal post to Skitter?

I'm explaining how I personally read my own post, what I think the words mean, and what I meant when I wrote them. Miscommunications arise when people think the same words have different meanings.

[Scioness Sajj]

Thanks! By the way, someone already talked about Newbie 1851 and I read that game too; you are on my watch list because of that game, you blended in so good! But I'm townleaning you for now, because the 1v1 with Oxy is an SvT and you are the T.

Oh lol, has somebody not read that game?
I like what you are saying there and I don't. I will need you to explain those reads at some point n the future.

I'm having trouble catching up, why the vote on ruru? Help good ol' Pin please

There are some inconsistencies from Ruru I want to figure out.

[Scioness Sajj]

Ugh, you will have to wait for my answer until tomorrow, Ruru. I need to figure out how to make my answers 257 readable and I'm too tired to bother with fancy quoting or colors right now.

[ruru]

SS: Ok.

Meanwhile...

At this point three people are saying that lurking is not scummy. Considering that it is three and not two, maybe I'm just wrong about what is good play. But to me the idea that lurking is completely neutral is strange. (And I realize PRs might have reason to lurk, but in 7/9 setups town PRs are 1:1 mafia and in 2/9 setups town PRs are 1:2 mafia, so lynching a random non-VT player should be a good thing.)

umm. actually lynching a scum or VT would be the best bet. Why would you say that lynching a PR is better than lynching a VT?

@eth0s I don't think we should lynch a random lurker, but your response - misunderstanding or purposeful mischaracterization?

I also don't think we should lynch a random lurker. wagon =/= lynch. So I don't think you should imply that I said that. Also I didn't misunderstand or misrep ruru. She said "so lynching a random non-VT player should be a good thing". That sentence just doesn't sit well with me. Obviously lynching scum is a good idea but why imply that VT is the worst thing to lynch? That just doesn't make any sense.

I really find it strange that someone who is playing to win as town would be misunderstanding this multiple times. If you misunderstood it once, wouldn't you start thinking through the possibilities?

1. not giving you a readlist because I don't need to.

There's not enough going on for me to read yet. Give me an irl day or two and you'll get reads. Probably more frequently than you want.

VOTE: Scioness Sajj

Will elaborate when I have more time. Should be available within next 14 hours. Almost done being super bust for awhile.

VOTE: eth0s

I didn't bother you the past couple days, but that doesn't mean I've forgotten about you. Please explain your play.

Recommended reading: Newbie 1848. Is it the same person?

[pinturicchio]

Ok guys its really late here in Chile and I tried to read everything but somewhere in between became really difficult, and I already convinced myself that Oxy is scum and that his partner is either ruru or ofrhz because of the early towncred to both. A lot of scum motivation there, gives free credit to his partner by giving credit to two players instead of one. The towncred he gives to both is so random I really can't see any other explanation. Also his 1v1 with Scioness seems like building the first mislynch of the game, and he's doing quite good, but nah, you're scum.
VOTE: Oxy

Interesting. Do you think ofrhz has acted scummy?

Also, if you could pick your role, which role would you prefer and why?

I'm a little biased about my Oxy read, but yes, I've seen scummy behavior coming from you and ofrhz. BUT! The thing is, you've been acting scummy either if you're Oxy's partner or not. What I mean is, if we lynch Oxy today and he flips scum, both you and ofrhz would be in my lynchpool for D2; but if Oxy flipped town, you would still be on my lynchpool and I would townlean ofrhz. This, because knowing that Oxy is town, I would know the motivations in his posts about you and ofrhz, and that would be good for you both, but as I said, you have been scummy with or without Oxy. You remind me of myself in my first town game, but also on my first scum game... So I'll have to sort you out before it's too late.

About my role, it would depend of the setup; in this specific setup, I would be the jailkeeper. I like to think "what would mafia do in this situation" and being jailkeeper is great for that matter, as you can protect the players that you think mafia would try to kill, and after lynching a scum you become an investigative role. It's awesome!

[pinturicchio]

I'm going to be away until evening EST, but I'll put in some effort then, so feel free to leave me any questions. Ideally, Eth0s follows up on the quote below while I am gone.

Will elaborate when I have more time. Should be available within next 14 hours. Almost done being super bust for awhile.

I only realized just this moment that your name is not Heisenberg. lol

Pinturicchio, could you please give us your thoughts on Ruru and Ofrhz? From your PoV, there are only three players in need of examination, so I expect you've put some thought into it? I would be interested in your thoughts on others as well, to a lesser extent.

I'll answer this next, I have to prepare everything for the DBS' last episode and will come back to this

[ruru]

I'm a little biased about my Oxy read, but yes, I've seen scummy behavior coming from you and ofrhz. BUT! The thing is, you've been acting scummy either if you're Oxy's partner or not.

Which of my posts seem scummy to you and why?

What I mean is, if we lynch Oxy today and he flips scum, both you and ofrhz would be in my lynchpool for D2; but if Oxy flipped town, you would still be on my lynchpool and I would townlean ofrhz. This, because knowing that Oxy is town, I would know the motivations in his posts about you and ofrhz, and that would be good for you both, but as I said, you have been scummy with or without Oxy. You remind me of myself in my first town game, but also on my first scum game... So I'll have to sort you out before it's too late.

You said ofrhz is acting scummy, but then you said that you would not suspect him if Oxy flipped town. But the reason you link Oxy to ofrhz is because Oxy town-read ofrhz - in other words, not because of ofrhz's behavior.

So I'm not really clear on your answer. Is ofrhz behaving scummy or not?

[ruru]

Also on this subject, I don't understand Drixx's post either and would like to know what he means.

[pinturicchio]

I'm going to be away until evening EST, but I'll put in some effort then, so feel free to leave me any questions. Ideally, Eth0s follows up on the quote below while I am gone.

Will elaborate when I have more time. Should be available within next 14 hours. Almost done being super bust for awhile.

I only realized just this moment that your name is not Heisenberg. lol

Pinturicchio, could you please give us your thoughts on Ruru and Ofrhz? From your PoV, there are only three players in need of examination, so I expect you've put some thought into it? I would be interested in your thoughts on others as well, to a lesser extent.

I'll answer this next, I have to prepare everything for the DBS' last episode and will come back to this

Ok Oxy here's my answer, I'll talk about Ruru and Ofrhz first, I'll go further on my other reads in another post. But before talking about this, I've gotta say, we NEED a replacement for the last slot; if that slot is scum, all of the reads we have are useless because of the lack of interaction of that slot and his/her partner and the rest of town. PRs need to sort the best course of action for the night and having someone missing is worse for town than scum (even if the remaining player is a VT).

That being off my chest: my gutread when I came to this game was that there was a "love triangle" between you (Oxy), ofrhz and ruru, and by love triangle I mean there was a loooot of interaction between you three. Let me put an example: ruru voted for ofrhz because of some mafia theory reason, you and Scioness vote for ruru, ofhrz says he was going to vote for ruru but both of you voted for her first and that she answered already, and literally two posts later ofrhz goes and vote for ruru because of bad reading comprehension. Some posts later, you go with your infamous post where you give too much towncred to both ruru and ofrhz, and ofrhz disagrees with your townread on ruru, and ruru also disagrees with you giving her so much credit. You then go in a 1v1 with Scioness and guess who says that got trouble reading the 1v1 but thought it was a TvT? You guessed it: ofrhz. In the meantime, ruru unvoted ofrhz because she didn't want to keep her vote overnight on someone she was starting to townlean, and started a random question because of... reasons she can't explain.

Conclusion? Ruru was REALLY gamesolvey at the start and it made sense, since she said she was used to another forum where days were shorter; that's why her unvote on ofrhz ping me as scum retracting on getting too much attention with a wagon no one was following. On the other side, my read of ofrhz is totally based on my read on you; that's why I said earlier that, if you flip scum, he MUST be your partner, it just obvious newb!scum; but if you flip town, your read on him would start to make more sense.

[pinturicchio]

I'm a little biased about my Oxy read, but yes, I've seen scummy behavior coming from you and ofrhz. BUT! The thing is, you've been acting scummy either if you're Oxy's partner or not.

Which of my posts seem scummy to you and why?

What I mean is, if we lynch Oxy today and he flips scum, both you and ofrhz would be in my lynchpool for D2; but if Oxy flipped town, you would still be on my lynchpool and I would townlean ofrhz. This, because knowing that Oxy is town, I would know the motivations in his posts about you and ofrhz, and that would be good for you both, but as I said, you have been scummy with or without Oxy. You remind me of myself in my first town game, but also on my first scum game... So I'll have to sort you out before it's too late.

You said ofrhz is acting scummy, but then you said that you would not suspect him if Oxy flipped town. But the reason you link Oxy to ofrhz is because Oxy town-read ofrhz - in other words, not because of ofrhz's behavior.

So I'm not really clear on your answer. Is ofrhz behaving scummy or not?

1. Read my last post, there's my read on you!
2. Never said ofrhz was acting scummy before, I said there was some scummy behavior coming from him and you, and ofrhz' behavior is scummy IF Oxy is scum, because his interactions with him are too obviously scummy to be true. So yes, my read ond ofrhz is linked to my Oxy's read. That's exactly why I'm voting Oxy right now and not ofrhz or you: you three are on my lynch pool, but Oxy's flip would give me the most information to solve the game.

[pinturicchio]

Now, about the other 4 players who are here:
eth0s: I played a game with him where he was the D1 lynch... He lynched himself being VT. Don't try to sort him too early, it's not going to work. He hasn't engaged enough also. I'm townleaning him because of reasons I will discuss when it's appropiate, but trust me, you don't want to lynch eth0s wihout him giving his thoughts about the game. He has good reads as town; if he gives a shitty read, that's a tell.
Dryxx: don't know where, but I townread him because of something... maybe because he sees the same connection I see between ofrhz and Oxy, but he says "if ofrhz is scum, Oxy is scum too" and I think it's the opposite, which may look the same but it isn't. But I do need more content coming from him to sort him out.
Scionness: already talked about her: town vibes, but I don't trust her because her scumgame is so good. I'll sort her out when it's needed, hope I'm dead before that happens.
skitter: I have absolutely nothing to say, I don't remember any of her posts so no reads on her. Not nullreading, just no reads lol

[ofrhz]

Conclusion? Ruru was REALLY gamesolvey at the start and it made sense, since she said she was used to another forum where days were shorter; that's why her unvote on ofrhz ping me as scum retracting on getting too much attention with a wagon no one was following.

Say it louder for the people in the back

[ofrhz]

Ok guys its really late here in Chile and I tried to read everything but somewhere in between became really difficult, and I already convinced myself that Oxy is scum and that his partner is either ruru or ofrhz because of the early towncred to both. A lot of scum motivation there, gives free credit to his partner by giving credit to two players instead of one. The towncred he gives to both is so random I really can't see any other explanation. Also his 1v1 with Scioness seems like building the first mislynch of the game, and he's doing quite good, but nah, you're scum.
VOTE: Oxy

@pinturicchio- To be clear, you are basing the bulk of your read of Oxy on just one post?

[pinturicchio]

Conclusion? Ruru was REALLY gamesolvey at the start and it made sense, since she said she was used to another forum where days were shorter; that's why her unvote on ofrhz ping me as scum retracting on getting too much attention with a wagon no one was following.

Say it louder for the people in the back

I lol'ed. That means you agree with me on this?

[pinturicchio]

Ok guys its really late here in Chile and I tried to read everything but somewhere in between became really difficult, and I already convinced myself that Oxy is scum and that his partner is either ruru or ofrhz because of the early towncred to both. A lot of scum motivation there, gives free credit to his partner by giving credit to two players instead of one. The towncred he gives to both is so random I really can't see any other explanation. Also his 1v1 with Scioness seems like building the first mislynch of the game, and he's doing quite good, but nah, you're scum.
VOTE: Oxy

@pinturicchio- To be clear, you are basing the bulk of your read of Oxy on just one post?

No no, that post is more like a summary of the playstyle he's been showing on this game. There's a post where he talked about ruru and you with spoiler tags, the 1v1 with Scioness... There's much more but I don't like wallposts, so I'm trying to simplify my read on Oxy for everyone

[Oxy]

For some reason I had it in my mind that the play began at 3:00pm. It began at 8:00pm. As such, I've been casually drinking fooor.... ten hours. Very tired... not sure how far I will get. For now, I would very much like it if Drixx and Pinturicchio could explain the Ofrhz/Oxy links to me like I'm five so I can put Ofrhz into a real confirmed town bucket.

[skitter30]

I don't have a people with people wanting to keep information to themselves. But when they wiggle around it it makes me think that they don't want to refuse outright becuase they are concerned with it appearing as scummy. They are more concerned with how they will be precived by players than actually solving the game.

The newst posts from Oxy make me thing he is tunneling me and really want to be right. Ie he had a gut read and thinks he has found a scum slip and is building a case from this POV. I don't think he has tried to actually sort me in this game and he is appealing to the crowd by adding onto his gut read. The case is weak. Too weak for scum on day 1 I believe. I won't be voting him.

I don't really understand why you don't think his posts come from scum. Can you explain again?

-----------

Hmm... I think my post is calling her difficult to read, not particularly scummy. It's interesting that you read it that way. Do you want me to think she is scummy? Would you like to see a wagon on her? If I took your post as motivation to vote, even though you don't find her scummy, would you be held accountable for the wagon?

I don't particularly want you to find her scummy. I do want you to come to some sort of a stance, and if you can't, at least try to sort her, which I don't really see you doing. You seem fine settling for calling her hard to read and finding her posting style affected, without doing much about it.

I don't really think I'd be accountable for your vote on her. And even if I was, I'm not sure why I'd then be accountable for the entire wagon?

She's been under pressure all game, but it hasn't helped me develop a read. Personally I would lynch her only as a last resort if we don't accomplish anything before then. And since we have a lot of posts on Oxy vs Sajj, I would be much more interested in seeing reactions from someone else at this point. Like you!

OK, if scioness is a last resort, who would you feel more comfortable lynching? And like I feel like I've been sharing my reactions as I've had them. (There's one or two things I've neglected to follow up on cuz I want to see them develop naturally.) And if there's something in particular you want me to address, lmk.

------------

Welp, that's what I get for not reading the game. As I've stated previously, I read your ISO, I read the PT, and I read some post game comments. I also looked at the first post and it has you listed as still alive. so I figured you had won. I didn't actually read the game itself. fine. you lost the game. Everyone still thinks you did a great job and that you're competent scum.

I feel like you want to find her scummy.

-----------

I believe that Oxy vs. Sajj is a TvT. There's a lot of indicators there of that. There's an off chance that they are the scum team and putting on quite a lot of theatre, but generally it's crazy risky to go to the extent they have, and I just don't get that vibe.

Why not SvT?

Also I'm particularly interested in your finding ofrzh an early candidate for scum cuz I think he's been quite townie.

----------

Ok guys its really late here in Chile and I tried to read everything but somewhere in between became really difficult, and I already convinced myself that Oxy is scum and that his partner is either ruru or ofrhz because of the early towncred to both. A lot of scum motivation there, gives free credit to his partner by giving credit to two players instead of one. The towncred he gives to both is so random I really can't see any other explanation. Also his 1v1 with Scioness seems like building the first mislynch of the game, and he's doing quite good, but nah, you're scum.
VOTE: Oxy

Welcome!

Yes, I also don't really like his townreads on either of them since they both had some rather flimsy reasoning and he's so resistant to re-evaluating the reads there.

-----------

If Ofrhz is scum, then Oxy almost certainly is. That was a pretty blatant post connecting them at the hip. I suppose it could be an intentional fake out... but that would require a tremendous level of self awareness to realize how he would react if he was paired with Oxy and someone pointed it out and then actually react exactly that way and hit all the right notes.

Which post?

---------

260 - ruru, what's your opinion on oxy? I kinda feel like you're avoiding taking a stance on the 1v1, and this vote feels really weirdly timed to me given the current gamestate. I almost feel like you're trying to avoid the issue of the day or move the gamestate elsewhere.

----------

BUT! The thing is, you've been acting scummy either if you're Oxy's partner or not. What I mean is, if we lynch Oxy today and he flips scum, both you and ofrhz would be in my lynchpool for D2; but if Oxy flipped town, you would still be on my lynchpool and I would townlean ofrhz.

If ruru is scummy independantly of oxy, why are you voting oxy and not ruru? I get that oxy's flip will help you read ofrhz, but you still think that ruru is scummy irregardless of oxy's flip.

[pinturicchio]

BUT! The thing is, you've been acting scummy either if you're Oxy's partner or not. What I mean is, if we lynch Oxy today and he flips scum, both you and ofrhz would be in my lynchpool for D2; but if Oxy flipped town, you would still be on my lynchpool and I would townlean ofrhz.

If ruru is scummy independantly of oxy, why are you voting oxy and not ruru? I get that oxy's flip will help you read ofrhz, but you still think that ruru is scummy irregardless of oxy's flip.

If we lynch Oxy and he's scum, ofrhz is his partner; if Oxy flips town, ofrhz is prob!town. If we lynch ruru and she's scum, nice! But who's her partner? Could be Oxy; if she's town, back to plan A with Oxy and ofrhz being partners in crime.

From my point of view (as biased as I am with this trio), lynching Oxy is the best way to go.