Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Scioness Sajj]

!!!!

Hi, NSG!

[pinturicchio]

@Pinturicchio
Do you have any examples of town!Pin that I could look at where you entertain highly speculative "tin foil hat theories" on D1?

Can't answer that because rules, but yes. Actually, Newbie 1854 is a good example too, as I replaced in and began with my wacky theories almost in the same way I did there.

[pinturicchio]

@pin: did you read the game before you replaced in? What I'm getting at is *when* did you convince yourself oxy was scum - before you replaced in, or after?

I'm a little lost, why is this relevant? Yes, I read the thread before replacing in and the dynamic trio pinged me, but I thought that my Oxy/ofrhz was a really long shot since there was two players missing. Now that I know my alignment, the possibilities grew. Don't get me wrong, it's still a long shot, but is the best I can do with the information provided at this point.

[pinturicchio]

@pinturrichio regarding 288:

you have built your argument on shaky ground

It's the only ground I have at this point, I'm doing what I can!

Also I’m flattered you think Oxy and I have masterminded this strategy to give me town cred. Unfortunately, I can’t convince you that the flow of conversation was _not_ premeditated, since you’ve already dug yourself into this hole where you believe Oxy is scum. Therefore you’ve also convinced yourself that Oxy and me and irrevocably linked, which is a stretch. I will ask this to help you reconsider: do I only come off as town when I’m responding to Oxy? I sure hope not, but this is up to you.

I think you meant "as scum", but yes, I've said it already, I'm not independently scumreading you, I only think you would be obv!scum if Oxy flipped scum!

If you find both Oxy and ruru to be scummy, you should try to lynch whoever is more scummy. The next day, you can go back and revise your idea on who the possible scumteam is. Considering Oxy’s actions can be read as overeager or misguided town, I am confused as to why you think he is the better target. You yourself admitted that Oxy’s actions can be explained if we’re both town.

I'm more convinced on Oxy being scum with you than ruru being scum with someone else (or even with Oxy)!

But let me get this straight: I know I sound convinced and everything but that's just because it's the best I have... But I said it already: not having a replacement on the last spot is obviously affecting the game and I'm too focused on the people who is actually giving content, so no, I'm no THAT convinced, and my reads will eventually change when NSG catches up and eth0s come here and give some content too.

That being said: hi NSG, welcome! I think this is the best replacement we could get for this game!

[ofrhz]

Oxy, it’s been a while since you gave a read on ruru. Do you have any opinions on her more recent posts and the votes that are now on her?

[Oxy]

I'm still working on that ISO for you, Skitter. In the meantime, this is for Pinturicchio.
@ofrhz I've seen a couple things that I don't like from Ruru, but nothing has pinged me hard enough to regret town binning her for D1. I mentioned one somewhere, and another I am keeping to myself for the moment. I haven't put her posts under a microscope in a while, though. I'll tell you what I definitely don't want, and that is for a Ruru lynch to happen before we hear a lot more from Eth0s, Drixx, NSG, and Pinturicchio. That would be playing super hard against win con for town.

@Pinturicchio My first read was not to confirm them as town. Here are some quotes for you. I didn't just join the game, throw a vote, and declare two people confirmed town. I got reads, had those reads strengthened, and decided they were strong enough to build my town circle around for D1. So, again, how is this any different?

Spoiler:

I have a

slight town read

on both ofrhz and ruru for this interaction, but that is more than anyone else.

I gave my reads in 20, and

I continue to like those reads in the few posts since

.

@Scioness Sajj
Answering your questions:
Readlist:

Very town

Town Lean

Ruru
Ofrhs

Null

Scum Lean

Scioness Sajj

ObvMaf

Based on this and other responses I don't find you particularly scummy, not enough to leave my vote overnight.

UNVOTE: ofrhz

obvtown

I'm not interested in reevaluating my two town reads D1. Nope, not happening. Day 2 and onwards? You bet I will.

[Scioness Sajj]

re convincing - I don't find it scummy in general and especially not in the context Pin used it originally.
------
some updates:
- some people are scumming it up for me, I wanna take a back sit for a moment and watch how all of this plays out
- not in for a ruru lynch or putting her on L-1 so I'm hopping off the wagon

UNVOTE: ruru

[pinturicchio]

@Oxy maybe I haven't said this before, I feel I already did, but I think you confirmed your townreads way too early with some weak posts, that's the difference between you and me and why I feel your early reads were confirming town, but ok, I get your point. I will insist, however, that I'm not as convinced as I'm pretending to be and I'm going to reevaluate after NSG and eth0s catching up.

[northsidegal]

going to post a bit before actually fully catching up. one thing i will say from doing a thread search is that it's interesting how nobody seems to have mentioned my slot beforehand. i really don't know what it means yet, if anything. if i

had

to guess i'd say it might cast the SEs/IC in a more suspicious light, but that's just speculation.

That being said: hi NSG, welcome! I think this is the best replacement we could get for this game!

flattering!

can i assume from you saying this that you're not scared of me catching you like last time?

re convincing - I don't find it scummy in general and especially not in the context Pin used it originally.
------
some updates:
- some people are scumming it up for me, I wanna take a back sit for a moment and watch how all of this plays out
- not in for a ruru lynch or putting her on L-1 so I'm hopping off the wagon

UNVOTE: ruru

hi scioness!

keep in mind that this is still coming from before i've caught up, but what changed your mind on ruru from your vote to here?

[skitter30]

@pin: did you read the game before you replaced in? What I'm getting at is *when* did you convince yourself oxy was scum - before you replaced in, or after?

I'm a little lost, why is this relevant? Yes, I read the thread before replacing in and the dynamic trio pinged me, but I thought that my Oxy/ofrhz was a really long shot since there was two players missing. Now that I know my alignment, the possibilities grew. Don't get me wrong, it's still a long shot, but is the best I can do with the information provided at this point.

At the time you developed the read, you were effectively town since you didn't know anyone's alignment, including your own. If you're scum you didn't have to fabricate the read out of whole cloth - you might just be building on a read you developed before you knew anyone's aligments.

It kinda devalues any towncred I was giving you for this push since I can't determine if your read is coming from town or someone who was uninformed-like-town when they developed the read.

---------

I'm still working on that ISO for you, Skitter. In the meantime, this is for Pinturicchio.

You don't have to do a whole ISO on me or whatever; a sentence or two works.

--------

I'll tell you what I definitely don't want, and that is for a Ruru lynch to happen before we hear a lot more from Eth0s, Drixx, NSG, and Pinturicchio.

Does this seem super likely to happen to you atm?

- not in for a ruru lynch or putting her on L-1 so I'm hopping off the wagon

OK, why?

--------

one thing i will say from doing a thread search is that it's interesting how nobody seems to have mentioned my slot beforehand. i really don't know what it means yet, if anything. if i had to guess i'd say it might cast the SEs/IC in a more suspicious light, but that's just speculation.

Your slot is a newbie-slot that site-flaked before they even confirmed their alignment. Not really sure what you're expecting people to read into that?

[northsidegal]

one thing i will say from doing a thread search is that it's interesting how nobody seems to have mentioned my slot beforehand. i really don't know what it means yet, if anything. if i had to guess i'd say it might cast the SEs/IC in a more suspicious light, but that's just speculation.

Your slot is a newbie-slot that site-flaked before they even confirmed their alignment. Not really sure what you're expecting people to read into that?

i didn't expect people to "read into it", it's just the fact that my slot seemed to have just been ignored, and it was 4 whole days before it was replaced. it's just strange to me – i would have expected at least a few more mentions than i've found. my baseless theory is that the more experienced players who perhaps should have called for it to be replaced or prodded earlier didn't because an empty slot benefits them as scum, but like i said – just speculation.

[Scioness Sajj]

re convincing - I don't find it scummy in general and especially not in the context Pin used it originally.
------
some updates:
- some people are scumming it up for me, I wanna take a back sit for a moment and watch how all of this plays out
- not in for a ruru lynch or putting her on L-1 so I'm hopping off the wagon

UNVOTE: ruru

hi scioness!

keep in mind that this is still coming from before i've caught up, but what changed your mind on ruru from your vote to here?

- not in for a ruru lynch or putting her on L-1 so I'm hopping off the wagon

OK, why?

My mind didn't really change, I had a pressure vote on her. It gave me some answers I was looking for and that's it.

[northsidegal]

My mind didn't really change, I had a pressure vote on her. It gave me some answers I was looking for and that's it.

so it was skitter's vote there that caused you to unvote, or something else?

also, who are your scumreads so far?

[Scioness Sajj]

so it was skitter's vote there that caused you to unvote, or something else?

also, who are your scumreads so far?

304 more than skitter, feels like people are coming around to voting her and no reason to put her into claiming theritory just yet.

I have townleans on skitter and Pin and I don't know how to answer your question without giving some things away.

[ofrhz]

re convincing - I don't find it scummy in general and especially not in the context Pin used it originally.
------
some updates:
- some people are scumming it up for me, I wanna take a back sit for a moment and watch how all of this plays out
- not in for a ruru lynch or putting her on L-1 so I'm hopping off the wagon

UNVOTE: ruru

hi scioness!

keep in mind that this is still coming from before i've caught up, but what changed your mind on ruru from your vote to here?

- not in for a ruru lynch or putting her on L-1 so I'm hopping off the wagon

OK, why?

My mind didn't really change, I had a pressure vote on her. It gave me some answers I was looking for and that's it.

You're harping on me for using the word "and" instead of "when?" I thought my meaning was obvious given the context of the rest of my post/sentence. I can kinda see where your confusion is coming from, but it still feels like too much of a stretch, and I still think you were building a strawman here.

Based on this and other responses I don't find you particularly scummy, not enough to leave my vote overnight.

UNVOTE: ofrhz

Sajj - Do you think keeping at ruru at L-2 would have put her in claiming territory?

This overly cautious attitude is how people fly under the radar. We can't be afraid to put people at L-2. and this is more directed at Oxy, but I have never advocated for lynching ruru, otherwise I would be actually be putting forth an aggressive argument to get other people to vote for her.

As an aside, I made post 304 in response to skitter pointing out that Oxy hadn't re-considered any of his early town reads. I wanted to see if he had changed his opinion on ruru.

[ofrhz]

Lol I fucked up that last post. I meant to only quote 311/313, not 62.

[Oxy]

@Skitter30

When analyzing behavior, you seem to be asking "Is there a reasonable doubt that this behavior is indicative of scum/town?" and if the answer is yes, you discount the behavior when forming your read on the player.

You don't like it when others attribute their reads to behaviors that haven't passed that test in your mind, and you argue against it. I believe that this has had a moderating effect on the game to some degree.

This behavior is seriously pro town. Pro town play is not necessarily alignment indicative. That said, I think that maintaining your current playstyle while playing to a scum win con would get much more difficult as the game goes on, and I think this playstyle feels, and should continue to feel, natural for town!Skitter30. +town points

You had a lot of hollow content early where you explained things like why someone might lurk, etc. I was looking for them to die down as we got rolling, and they have. +town points

As to the basics, you have excellent questions, and you usually follow up on their answers. Your analysis seems very reasonable even when it is incorrect. Your voting conformed early to the cautious style I have described, and has looked pro town in intent since having belatedly left RVS. +town points

I have not found instances in your post where the inner town emotions ring unambiguously clear and true. +NAI

tl;dr Skitter30 is playing a very townie game. If Skitter30 is scum, I expect her to basically scum claim by Lylo.

[ofrhz]

Wait, after rereading more carefully, 313 doesn't even make sense. Oxy said he still town leaned ruru and didn't want to see her lynched in 305, which is before you unvoted ruru. So when you said "feels like people are coming around to voting her and no reason to put her into claiming theritory just yet," what people are you referring to...??? That post is all over the place.

Going back and re-evaluating Sajj.

[Oxy]

In post 305, Oxy wrote:
I'll tell you what I definitely don't want, and that is for a Ruru lynch to happen before we hear a lot more from Eth0s, Drixx, NSG, and Pinturicchio.


Does this seem super likely to happen to you atm?

I think it was decently likely in a world where Sajj doesn't unvote and I start critically evaluating Ruru. You and Ofrhs have this under control. I'll be watching and cheering you on from the sidelines.

[ofrhz]

(useless post)

Eth0s is like a wrecking ball, he will eventually come

lmao, still waiting for wrecking ball eth0s

[pinturicchio]

@Skitter30

When analyzing behavior, you seem to be asking "Is there a reasonable doubt that this behavior is indicative of scum/town?" and if the answer is yes, you discount the behavior when forming your read on the player.

You don't like it when others attribute their reads to behaviors that haven't passed that test in your mind, and you argue against it. I believe that this has had a moderating effect on the game to some degree.

This behavior is seriously pro town. Pro town play is not necessarily alignment indicative. That said, I think that maintaining your current playstyle while playing to a scum win con would get much more difficult as the game goes on, and I think this playstyle feels, and should continue to feel, natural for town!Skitter30. +town points

You had a lot of hollow content early where you explained things like why someone might lurk, etc. I was looking for them to die down as we got rolling, and they have. +town points

As to the basics, you have excellent questions, and you usually follow up on their answers. Your analysis seems very reasonable even when it is incorrect. Your voting conformed early to the cautious style I have described, and has looked pro town in intent since having belatedly left RVS. +town points

I have not found instances in your post where the inner town emotions ring unambiguously clear and true. +NAI

tl;dr Skitter30 is playing a very townie game. If Skitter30 is scum, I expect her to basically scum claim by Lylo.

Ok, this... Is not what I was expecting.
UNVOTE: Oxy

[ruru]

Conclusion? Ruru was REALLY gamesolvey at the start and it made sense, since she said she was used to another forum where days were shorter; that's why her unvote on ofrhz ping me as scum retracting on getting too much attention with a wagon no one was following.

Or maybe it was the beginning of the game and all I had was a first impression and I got what I wanted out of the interaction?

What kind of attention would it draw for scum!ruru to leave the vote? Either a wagon forms (meaning people are now agreeing), or nothing happens.

2. Never said ofrhz was acting scummy before, I said there was some scummy behavior coming from him and you

If you really want to accuse me alone (or me and Oxy) of scummy behavior, but feel ofrhz is acting towny, saying scummy behavior "from him and me" is a bit strange.

If there was a D1 wagon on ofrhz (assuming you can't lynch Oxy or me), would you vote on him?

Hmm... I think my post is calling her difficult to read, not particularly scummy. It's interesting that you read it that way. Do you want me to think she is scummy? Would you like to see a wagon on her? If I took your post as motivation to vote, even though you don't find her scummy, would you be held accountable for the wagon?

I don't particularly want you to find her scummy. I do want you to come to some sort of a stance, and if you can't, at least try to sort her, which I don't really see you doing. You seem fine settling for calling her hard to read and finding her posting style affected, without doing much about it.

I don't really think I'd be accountable for your vote on her. And even if I was, I'm not sure why I'd then be accountable for the entire wagon?

Why does sorting SS matter more to you than sorting any of the other players? She's not the most suspicious to me.

She's been under pressure all game, but it hasn't helped me develop a read. Personally I would lynch her only as a last resort if we don't accomplish anything before then. And since we have a lot of posts on Oxy vs Sajj, I would be much more interested in seeing reactions from someone else at this point. Like you!

OK, if scioness is a last resort, who would you feel more comfortable lynching? And like I feel like I've been sharing my reactions as I've had them. (There's one or two things I've neglected to follow up on cuz I want to see them develop naturally.) And if there's something in particular you want me to address, lmk.

I meant reactions to pressure, not to the game; you haven't been under pressure at all this game and that alone makes me slightly suspicious.

Here are my reads:

Spoiler:

Scummy:
eth0s: for reasons I've mentioned already. Additionally, in general, his posts often seem motivated toward not getting lynched and not motivated toward helping town. I would think a town player with very limited time would especially prioritize the latter.
pinturicchio: I'm not sure a town player would have thought to have basically solved the game on day 1, especially having recently replaced into the game.

Neutral:
NSG
Drixx
skitter30
SS

Somewhat towny:
ofrhz: I ended up liking his reaction to my pressure. Our interactions seemed to indicate that he hadn't really re-read his own wording on the post that I originally voted him for. I think scum!ofrhz would be rereading his own post the instant someone didn't like it. Also I think his answer that he would prefer to be mafia roleblocker is consistent with the way he handled the interactions, which felt like "this vote is stupid, I don't want to type a fancy argument about why it's stupid because I didn't even roll scum".

Towny:
Oxy: While his overall behavior is town, I found 70 questionable and I was wondering if 30 was an attempt to pocket me. 90 eased a lot of my suspicions as I don't think scum would be thinking that way. If he is scum, then I think he genuinely believes he is town.

I would be more interested in a wagon on any of the other neutral players than on SS.

260 - ruru, what's your opinion on oxy? I kinda feel like you're avoiding taking a stance on the 1v1, and this vote feels really weirdly timed to me given the current gamestate. I almost feel like you're trying to avoid the issue of the day or move the gamestate elsewhere.

Yes, I am. I feel like the 1v1 is not the most interesting topic. I think it is likely a TvT because I think Oxy is pretty towny and SS is something like 3/4ths town. And if SS is scum, I think it will be easier to find out through game developments than by spending all of day 1 on her. Also on a personal level I'm not having that much fun reading so much of what feels more like Oxy and SS arguing about nothing and less like deduction (is day 1 always like this when there's a 2 week deadline?).

I voted on eth0s yesterday rather than earlier because he said to give him time for out-of-game reasons. Time has passed and he is not doing the things he said he would do. If I voted him earlier, I don't know if he would show up to the thread, but now it's the weekend, so I think it was a good time.

Would do it now but alcohol may be clouding my judgement.

Afraid of slipping?

I originally thought this was about the same subject as the previous paragraph, but now I see I misread it. I'm implying that refusing to answer questions at all would be really scummy, but it's not what you did.

Oh no, I have made the dashes to try to separate topics.

It's that sometimes your first response when questioned is to ask a question, not to answer the question.

1. Do you find it scummy? If so, why?

I don't think it's inherently scummy because, no matter your alignment, I think it's often better for others to answer your questions before you answer theirs. I don't think it's inherently towny either. But it was the main difference in your posting style I noticed between here and 1851.

2. Your starting point seems to be that I don't answer them at all. Something has changed or you were just vague?

I guess I was just unclear. I meant that you respond to questions with something that is not an answer, not that you refuse to answer.

Hmm, how did my stance change? I'm not sure what you're asking.

The bolded parts go together.
In 205 you've made an observation but didn't express your thoughts.
In 230 you adjust that observation and say you would be lynching me right now if I was actually doing what you said I was doing in 205.
But in 227 you said you would lynch me as a last resort.

I just don't follow how you go from one thing to another.

This should make more sense now given the above.

[pinturicchio]

That being said: hi NSG, welcome! I think this is the best replacement we could get for this game!

flattering!

can i assume from you saying this that you're not scared of me catching you like last time?

Haha I just meant that you have great reads, and I know that because of that game. But I'll give you that: neither as town or scum I would be scared as I learnt a lot from than game!

[Oxy]

If he is scum, then I think he genuinely believes he is town.

I've always said that the amnesiacs make the best scum players.

[Scioness Sajj]

The moment I say I want to watch you all pull me back in

Wait, after rereading more carefully, 313 doesn't even make sense. Oxy said he still town leaned ruru and didn't want to see her lynched in 305, which is before you unvoted ruru. So when you said "feels like people are coming around to voting her and no reason to put her into claiming theritory just yet," what people are you referring to...??? That post is all over the place.

Going back and re-evaluating Sajj.

L-1 puts her in the claming theoritor. By people I meant a single person that would decide to vote her. Which would happen when I'm asleep considering that most of you seem to live in time zones hours behind me.

Actually about your vote on Ruru, since you are not advocating for lynching her, why is your vote parked there?