Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Scioness Sajj]

Pin - could you compare Oxy's town read on skitter and his case on me and tell me what you think?

[Oxy]

Ok, this... Is not what I was expecting.
UNVOTE: Oxy[/quote]
I think this read could be as easily faked by scum as any I have written in this game, and could be more easily faked than most. What, precisely, makes you town read me for it?

[ruru]

I have never advocated for lynching ruru, otherwise I would be actually be putting forth an aggressive argument to get other people to vote for her.

I don't like this post very much. c.f. 268

[Scioness Sajj]

Ruru - I have read your answer and I get you now. Nothing mroe to add.

[pinturicchio]

Ok, this... Is not what I was expecting.
UNVOTE: Oxy

I think this read could be as easily faked by scum as any I have written in this game, and could be more easily faked than most. What, precisely, makes you town read me for it?[/quote]
You have too many townreads. I've waited for your case on skitter expecting a scumlean or even a scumread because scum!Oxy would need at least two or three scumreads to fabricate the mislynches. If you are scum, townreading so many people is suboptimal as in a LyLo situation where you are placed with two towns and you, by PoE you would be lynched just because of your good cases on town. You are a good player, my friend, and you would not do this as scum. I was wrong, and I'll have to reread everything with you being town from my perspective.

[pinturicchio]

Pin - could you compare Oxy's town read on skitter and his case on me and tell me what you think?

I will, but let me read the thread first, I need to see Oxy's ISO with another perspective now.

[Oxy]

Ironically, it's only after I stop pushing a lynch on Sajj that she starts throwing scum tells out left and right.

[ofrhz]

Or maybe it was the beginning of the game and all I had was a first impression and I got what I wanted out of the interaction?

My issue is with how you ducked out of the interaction. I find it curious you didn't want to continue our interaction, since I still had my vote on you. I think a town player would have tried to at least draw more information out of me before moving on, but it seems like you were intent on moving the spotlight away from you.

[ofrhz]

Actually about your vote on Ruru, since you are not advocating for lynching her, why is your vote parked there?

Out of the people I've developed on read on, she is the most suspicious. I don't want to lynch her unless the day ends because lots of people in this game have not yet made substantive posts.

[Scioness Sajj]

@ofrhz is ruru obv scum to you?

[Scioness Sajj]

Also if you don't want her lynched anytime soon why is your vote on her?

[ofrhz]

I don't like this post very much. c.f. 268

Addressed in 333

L-1 puts her in the claming theoritor. By people I meant a single person that would decide to vote her. Which would happen when I'm asleep considering that most of you seem to live in time zones hours behind me.

Sure this sounds plausible at first glance. But say someone else brought ruru to L-1, who do you think would've quick hammered? eth0s, drixx, northsidegal? any of those people seem like the type of people who would jump the gun and quick hammer?

To be crystal clear, I no longer think your unvote was that suspicious. I do think we should be more comfortable as town with bringing someone to L-2, because I think people respond differently depending on the amount of pressure put on them.

pedit: @Sajj - In a word, no, especially in light of her last post. I just need her to address one more thing that was making me suspicious about her. In case we misunderstand each other again, the rest of the people who have been active seem townish to very town to me; I leaned scum for ruru, which by default, made her the most suspicious out of everybody.
pedit again: Dude, she's not in danger of being lynched. If she gets brought to L-1, I would have reconsidered, but like I just said, who in this game is stupid enough to quick hammer this wagon?

[ruru]

tl;dr Skitter30 is playing a very townie game. If Skitter30 is scum, I expect her to basically scum claim by Lylo.

Could you explain this a bit more? Does scum have to act scummy before or during lylo?

For example, if there are 3 players left, and the scum player is the "towniest", they can wait for someone to vote, and then hammer. So I assume you're talking about actions before lylo?

Or maybe it was the beginning of the game and all I had was a first impression and I got what I wanted out of the interaction?

My issue is with how you ducked out of the interaction. I find it curious you didn't want to continue our interaction, since I still had my vote on you. I think a town player would have tried to at least draw more information out of me before moving on, but it seems like you were intent on moving the spotlight away from you.

I feel like this is highly dependent on personality/style.

I don't want to lynch her unless the day ends because lots of people in this game have not yet made substantive posts.

I think it is better not to say things like this even if they're true, because it could make it very easy to stall the game. Can we talk about whether or not we want to see wagons instead of whether or not we want to see lynches?

[ofrhz]

I think it is better not to say things like this even if they're true, because it could make it very easy to stall the game. Can we talk about whether or not we want to see wagons instead of whether or not we want to see lynches?

Good point, but I wasn't the one who brought it up. My point from the start was that we shouldn't be afraid to form wagons, and they would not lead to a quick lynch with this group.

I need to think more carefully about your answer to my other point before deciding if it makes sense.

[Oxy]

In post 316, Oxy wrote:
tl;dr Skitter30 is playing a very townie game. If Skitter30 is scum, I expect her to basically scum claim by Lylo.
Could you explain this a bit more? Does scum have to act scummy before or during lylo?
For example, if there are 3 players left, and the scum player is the "towniest", they can wait for someone to vote, and then hammer. So I assume you're talking about actions before lylo?

I mean, I guess in a game where no discussion and reevaluation occurs during a 3 player lylo, waiting for someone else to vote is optimal for scum. Think about it from this angle, though. If scum can win a game purely by making cautious evaluations and placing pro-town votes, then town must have been super dysfunctional. With a functioning town, I would expect a slot like scum!Skitter30 to resolve in one of any number of ways. e.g, "Skitter, you've been super townie all game. It's day 3. Why are you still alive?"
More often I think scum will find itself in one or more positions where they have to place their vote on someone for strategic purposes, and then work to justify it. It is at this point that I expect scum!Skitter30's justification to deviate from the cautious playstyle that she is using.

[ofrhz]

I feel like this is highly dependent on personality/style.

Okay... it's hard for me to determine your playstyle, because most of your posts have been clarification questions. Based on what you have posted, you have been pretty good at following up with people who thought you were scummy, which would seem contradict your playstyle. Do you not remember what you were thinking when you unvoted me? If you do, can you expound on it a bit?

Can you also elaborate on why you think Scioness Sajj leans town as opposed to earlier when you said you couldn't read her? and answer your own question about what your preferred role would be?

[Oxy]

You have too many townreads. I've waited for your case on skitter expecting a scumlean or even a scumread because scum!Oxy would need at least two or three scumreads to fabricate the mislynches. If you are scum, townreading so many people is suboptimal as in a LyLo situation where you are placed with two towns and you, by PoE you would be lynched just because of your good cases on town. You are a good player, my friend, and you would not do this as scum. I was wrong, and I'll have to reread everything with you being town from my perspective.

Missed this post til just now...

Huh. I guess since I only ever read/watch games to scum hunt I've never really thought about it that way. I am upset with you, my friend. I enjoyed hearing you narrate fantastic tales of scum!oxy's genius, and I was eagerly awaiting the next installment. =)

[Oxy]

Tbh, I felt flattered to the point that I almost didn't want to dispute them.

[ruru]

I feel like this is highly dependent on personality/style.

Okay... it's hard for me to determine your playstyle, because most of your posts have been clarification questions. Based on what you have posted, you have been pretty good at following up with people who thought you were scummy, which would seem contradict your playstyle. Do you not remember what you were thinking when you unvoted me? If you do, can you expound on it a bit?

I thought your reaction to my vote was not scummy, and I feel like you are OMGUSing.

About the personality part, your response seemed like you were genuinely annoyed at me for voting for what you saw as a silly reason. It takes a certain personality to respond to this with more interrogation despite clearing my original suspicion, and while I think those personalities are valuable to town, I'm not one of them.

Can you also elaborate on why you think Scioness Sajj leans town as opposed to earlier when you said you couldn't read her? and answer your own question about what your preferred role would be?

I don't think she leans town but I do think a wagon on the other 3 neutrals is more likely to give useful information at this time.

I prefer VT, because you rarely have reason to lie.

[Oxy]

I just read 12 pages of that 1854 game where people keep talking about how strong town!eth0s is. I'm tired of waiting, and I have enough town reads that this lynch can't be terrible, statistically speaking. If this were to go 24-36 hours without Eth0s giving some solid content, I'd be fine with someone hammering as a policy lynch. Unless, you know, there is interest in lynching Sajj.

VOTE: Eth0s

[Oxy]

Pinturicchio, if you aren't going to vote me anymore, you should put your vote here.

[skitter30]

i didn't expect people to "read into it", it's just the fact that my slot seemed to have just been ignored, and it was 4 whole days before it was replaced. it's just strange to me – i would have expected at least a few more mentions than i've found. my baseless theory is that the more experienced players who perhaps should have called for it to be replaced or prodded earlier didn't because an empty slot benefits them as scum, but like i said – just speculation.

I think assemble is a pretty good mod and I trust him to handle prods and replacements in a timely and responsible fashion without me reminding him about it, as he has.

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My mind didn't really change, I had a pressure vote on her. It gave me some answers I was looking for and that's it.

OK, and what's your current read on her slot?

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304 more than skitter, feels like people are coming around to voting her and no reason to put her into claiming theritory just yet.

Ofrzh wasn't wagoning her there and I kinda feel like if people unvote every time a wagon gets to L-2 we'll never get anywhere. Also my L-2 vote wasn't exactly an indication that it was time for her to claim.

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316 - fairly decent analysis of my towngame lolol. Yeah, I can't really fake this posting style naturally; t'was a really big eyeopener when someone pointed that out to me for the first time and gave that as a reason for townreading me.

You had a lot of hollow content early where you explained things like why someone might lurk, etc. I was looking for them to die down as we got rolling, and they have. +town points

Cuz it's a newbie game and I wanted to indicate what I think good practice is wrt things like lurking and using activity tells in a general sense. Trying to be a good example here lol.

I will say that I've only ever been nk'd like twice on site so idk if me being alive day 3 is necessarily AI (I've spent a long time trying to figure out what 'not-being dead day3 despite obvtowning' signifies cuz it seems to happen to me a lot; at this point I have a pretty good idea as to what that implies for the gamestate, and where I ought to be looking for scum in that situation).

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I think it was decently likely in a world where Sajj doesn't unvote and I start critically evaluating Ruru. You and Ofrhs have this under control. I'll be watching and cheering you on from the sidelines.

I mean, if eth0s, drixx, and NSG haven't caught up, ruru isn't lynching herself, and there's only three votes on her, I'm not really sure where the lolhammer would come from even?

Like I don't really get the caution about L-2 on day1 given that this isn't exactly a lol-hammer-y type game.

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Why does sorting SS matter more to you than sorting any of the other players? She's not the most suspicious to me.

Cuz the 1v1 between scioness and oxy has been a major part of the game and I kinda expect everyone to take a stance on it; there's certainly enough content to do so. You're just like avoiding it and almost trying to distract from it, which I'm finding really weird. Like you're just settling for calling scioness hard to read and not doing anything about trying to sort her.

I meant reactions to pressure, not to the game; you haven't been under pressure at all this game and that alone makes me slightly suspicious.

OK, why is that suspicious?

Yes, I am. I feel like the 1v1 is not the most interesting topic. I think it is likely a TvT because I think Oxy is pretty towny and SS is something like 3/4ths town. And if SS is scum, I think it will be easier to find out through game developments than by spending all of day 1 on her. Also on a personal level I'm not having that much fun reading so much of what feels more like Oxy and SS arguing about nothing and less like deduction (is day 1 always like this when there's a 2 week deadline?).

Yeah, I agree that the 1v1 wasn't particularly interesting and that it was a slog to read-through, and I can understand why you might not have read all of it. *However* I don't really like that you're not doing much to try to sort scioness. (oxy you've come to a conlusion on). Like you're responding to questions she has for you, but you don't really seem to be trying to interact with her outside of that. Now that I think about it, you seem to be playing a pretty reactive game. (ie as opposed to proactive)

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Could you explain this a bit more? Does scum have to act scummy before or during lylo?

He's saying that my posting style is probably hard for me to fabricate as scum so if I'm not posting like this at endgame there's a fairly decent chance I'm scum. Like if I need to vote somewhere to promote a scum wincon but the vote is out-of-place given the posting style I've had thus far.

[Oxy]

I would suspect scum is in {ofrhz, eth0s, skitter}.

I know you don't have much time, but you should /v eth0s. The other two are town.

[Oxy]

I mean, if eth0s, drixx, and NSG haven't caught up, ruru isn't lynching herself, and there's only three votes on her, I'm not really sure where the lolhammer would come from even?

Like I don't really get the caution about L-2 on day1 given that this isn't exactly a lol-hammer-y type game.

Yeah, I dunno. When you really break it down, I guess I just don't see a point in using my time/energy/vote to bring a town read of mine any closer to a lynch. That said, I think ya'll should continue this interaction until you're both happy with not lynching her D1. Then we can move on to lynching scum. =)

[ofrhz]

I thought your reaction to my vote was not scummy, and I feel like you are OMGUSing.

I don't think my reaction is much of an OMGUS since it's been so long since you voted for me. I have wondered whether or not I'm tunneling you. However, then we have...

I don't think she leans town but I do think a wagon on the other 3 neutrals is more likely to give useful information at this time.

like arghhhhh I can't let this go

You said in 321: "I think it is likely a TvT because I think Oxy is pretty towny and SS is something like 3/4ths town." Earlier, I wasn't asking why you aren't voting Scioness Sajj, I just want to know why you determined this was likely town v town and SS is "3/4ths town" (isn't 3/4ths town the same as "leans town?"), since earlier you said you couldn't read her.