Open 710: MKUltra - Foreign Spies Win!

[GuyInFreezer]

I don't really think 'all you've done was rallying people who were already scumreading RF' is entirely accurate

I meant that's how I created the wagon.
I voiced my own suspicion vs RF and I remember saying that I take full responsibility with that with pride.

[Iconeum]

I kinda feel like I'm letting myself get distracted by sky.

Out of everyone, I think that spring is most likely scum - she's been coasting for days now and providing very little content, and the hammer yesterday on someone she townread was atrocious.

Going through spring's ISO:

603 - sky likes TD's readslist in part 'for the use of an image to demonstrate a very valid point' -> I just realized the very valid point is that TD used that image to demonstrate his townread on mumble-slot. This actually kinda looks like she's using TD's readslist to bolster a townread on her slot?

OK, reading through the rest of her posts, and the main thing she does is defend the townread on TD despite badposting from alisae. I'm overall really confused as to the motivation of holding such a strong townread on someone for like two gamedays and doing like nothing else (and then hammering the townread when the oppurtunity came around). There's like very little scum-hunting from her at any point.

There was actually a fair bit of turning around on the alisae town read by spring by the end of the day. It's literally there in the last few posts if you actually read the spring ISO.

I'm willing to vote sky. Anyone else?

[Sky_Paladin]

IMDb about twelve hours from my next post chunk which will be vca of icon.
After that I will look at Spring/Gif.

Tbh though I’m confident gif is town and I won’t vote there.
So for me it’s two of Spring/icon/skitter
I found evidence that admitted fabricated at least some of her reads in my previous bloc and I don’t specifically know if that was addressed and I will look into that carefully before committing either way.

[Sky_Paladin]

Admitted = skitter but then autocorrect.

[Sky_Paladin]

OK hey I got some time to play. Here we go. Let's look at Icon. First of all, happy scumday, Icon! Have a read on your ISO to lighten up your day

On day 1, Icon was on the Beefster wagon with Skitter and wasn't part of the RF mislynch.

Spoiler:

He started out hard on Not Mafia which turned out not to matter because NM was town. All of Icon's first posts, up til 132, were drilling Not Mafia for claiming mafia.
To be honest, this is not a bad thing to have done, and I applaud any effort to get activity out of a chronic lurker slot. Both Skitter and myself also made some effort to get activity from NM at some point, even if it was just to vote him for doing nothing. As I recall, GiF was against this lynch because no PL in multi-ball.

After this, moves into questioning Tatl and Tael in 150 over their interactions with Skitter. Let's look at the post Icon doesn't like.

There are three block quotes; one from GiF, one from Skitter, and one from Not Mafia. Icon only mentions the Skitter and Not Mafia quotes, and says that he doesn't like Skitter's quotes that TT had quoted. Revisits in 154 to clarify further that Icon had issues with Skitter responding to one of TD's posts instead of another one, and then restates reasoning for voting NM.

I guess my concern here is that Icon found reasons to confront other players involving Skitter, but didn't directly engage with Skitter themselves.

Icon then moves on to Kop in 158 over Kop's unwillingness to lynch Not Mafia, but then questions Beefster for his vote on Not Mafia in 179. To be fair to Icon, Beefster was all over the shop in day 1/2 and even I lost my patience with what I thought to be flailing scum. Oh well.
He advances a vote and applies pressure.

Shortly after, Skitter votes Not Mafia - Icon calls her out in 265 because 24 hours ago she didn't want to push NM and the deadline was currently paused.

Starts analysing the (at the time) main wagons of Hawk and RedFlavor and eventually decides on RF is probably scum over Hawk; but irrelevant because both red are dead. Settles for Beefster because Beefster says some pretty strange things.

Overall I feel that Icon's reason for voting Beefster is difficult to find see scum MO in; he directly pressured Beefster and showed a real effort to analyse the other wagons of the day. I think that Icon's position on the Beefster wagon day 1 is valid and feels stronger than Skitter's.

Day 2, Icon helped lynched Beefster. Given the strength of his argument on day 1, this is probably the intuitive place for him to end up; but let's read further anyway.

Spoiler:

Starts the day essentially with a vote on Beefster with 'I can dig that.
The empty unvote a mere 70 posts later in 531 is therefore counter-intuitive; Icon actually drops his scum read on Beefster while disagreeing with Beefster's push on GiF. The unvote reason was because 'effort' but effort is not alignment indicative. So this unvote does bother me as I would have thought Icon would gravitate to his next intuitive read of scum!Hawk.

533 has Icon question Skitter over her vote on Beefster for pushing GiF. Relevant because this is why I voted Skitter and we continue to have massive walls back and forth about it. Checking the chronological order, Icon actually raised this as a point a few posts before I did. So this is interesting because I don't recall giant walls between Skitter and Icon. Skitter responded to Icon in 538 and mainly this -

So, I think that wagon composition matters *a lot*, and being on the same wagon as someone I significantly scumread feels wrong. Voting with Beef bothers me more than I like my GIF vote, which kinda implies to me that I scumread Beef more and I ought to voting there.

Scrolling through, Icon never responded to this, and instead jumped on to the Beefster wagon in 559 to put him at L-1, because at this point Beefster had basically desintegrated and had lost all credibility.
Context matters -
I'd made a case against Skitter, and voted Skitter (Icon had been voting Skitter).
Beefster sheeped my vote on Skitter, but when I questioned him, he couldn't remember who he was sheeping or why he agreed with me.
I voted Beefster for being unable to quantify his vote.
Icon voted right after, but didn't clarify his read on Skitter at this point.

In 592, is now actively poking others (specifically Sesq) to apply the hammer.
I know Beef has fallen apart by now, but this doesn't seem at all in line with Icon's earlier position in the day, and Icon hasn't even mentioned Hawk that I can see.

So while the end of day 2 lines up with the end of day 1, the start/middle bits of Icon's day 2 don't at all seem to connect and there's a couple of missing tells.

Note in particular Hawk/Aninenen vanished from Icon's reads, and then Hawk/Aninenen died that night phase to blue mafia. Failing to re-evaluate Skitter after pushing there also bothers me.
Who else died to blue mafia? Tatl and Tael, a player who Icon questioned over their interactions with Skitter, who was then flat out ignored by Icon once Tatl and Tael had moved on.
Hey, who is the player that Icon wants to lynch this day phase? Sky_Paladin, the player who has given Skitter the most trouble.
The cynic in me suggests this is probably not a coincidence.

Day 3 Skitter/Icon/Sky helped lynch Alisae who was scum so it's not really possible to pick up AI there, but I am interested in the development of Icon's reads.

Spoiler:

Reads appear early day 3 in 640 as null on Skitter, town on GiF and Sesq, Sky/Mikan scum, Spring null.

Several reads stick out as weird to me having done this ISO.
Null on skitter - willing to vote this player in the previous phase and had not followed up on Skitter's response. Really? Null?
Town on Sesq - Other than asking Sesq to hammer Beefster (who flipped town), these players had no interaction that I could see. I'm not really sure what Sesq did to earn this town read. Relevant because Sesq was another blue mafia kill in the previous night phase. Less relevant because Sesq had replaced out and Firebringer was an unknown.
Scum on Sky - Other than my vote on Icon day 2 (which I later updated to Skitter) I'm not sure what I'd done to be in Icon's sights.

Starts the main part of the day by interrogating Spring, especially on her reads, which looks valid IMO, in particular, Spring's town read on Mikan. In particular 670 looks super strong:

spring, changing mind is not scummy by itself. However, there is no reasoning behind the change whatsoever. Read the posts in between the 180. There is no reason for switching like that. 1 minute it's scum, next it's town? That's not a change of mind, that's convenience and I do read it as scummy.

Ends up voting Alisae because sheeping Tatl and Tael's read on Mikan from day 1 and then wall of crap from Alisae and that's basically where the phase ends.

A good push on Spring who is still basically afk imo and the vote on Alisae is plausible; the reads need an explanation though, particularly the null on Skitter.

I think Icon's play looks town on day 1 and 3, and scum on day 2. The night kills seem to straight up implicate Icon as blue mafia although I can't place the Sesq one.

Between Skitter/Icon, I think Icon has the stronger town play though I would like explanations of how he is now town reading Skitter and scum reading me. This doesn't appear to have developed naturally.

I really do feel like this could be the scum pair still but mainly because of Icon's kid-glove treatment of Skitter, and pressure against players who looked the wrong way at Skitter. I'll have to look back at Skitter again to see if this is one way or not. But that's going to wait. Next up - Spring.

[Sky_Paladin]

OK, Spring.

Spoiler:

Day 1, Mumble/Spring was voting for Icon. Relevant because scum often vote each other early in the game, and that vote was early - 106.

Cites reason for not voting Beefster early on as wagon forming too fast to be scum 191, Beefster does flip town in day 2.

Quantifies reads in 193 somewhat vaugely, has issues with Icon and Red, is fine with Skitter/Sky. Immediately hops out when Mikan appears. Not present for phase end; no mention of wagons. Not really useful for VCA.

Spring!

Intro post with demands that Sesq posts reads on all players in 564 and then votes for emphasis. Town read on Alisae. Irrelevant because red is dead.

599 worries me. This post came immediately after a vote tally showing Beefster at L-1, I feel like a town player genuinely in concern that Beefster is a mislynch would be more vocal about getting their preferred lynch secured, at this stage Spring's only real scum read is Sesq, who's flipped town. I don't really see Spring trying to make anything happen here - she has picked a fairly afk player to focus on and asked for reads. There's a lot more players to interact with than this. I actually highlight this in 590 when I asked Spring to give her reads on more players than just Sesq; she responded with "I'm still catching up" and for me to give my reads. Hmm.

603 townreads Alisae again. Irrelevant because red is dead.

647 list of reads and 'not very happy about the Beefster lynch'. It's a day phase too late to be unhappy about this so this post is kind of meh.
Scum reads on Skitter/Sesq/GiF because can't remember 'if GiF or Sesq' did something the day before.
This seems really weak - I voted Beefster for not knowing why he had voted and this post would have been vote worthy.

659 - First real substance vote from this slot.
The main thing is the VCA and highlighting that Skitter made one good post. Second thing of substance is the updated reads list:

Scum:
Sesq
Sky
Icon

Null:
GIF
Skitter

Town:
Mikan

Revotes Sesq and at least makes some effort to explain their vote.

Not sure how Icon went from null to scum; or how GiF is townier from the VCA than I am.

Aaaaand that's basically it for the slot.

Hmm.

Well, there is really not a lot to go on for this slot. It needs a fire lit under it's ass and is a textbook example of why we shouldn't let afk players last til LYLO.

Is it scum tho? The main content has been a push for Sesq (flips green after nightkill) and townread on Mikan (flips red). If Spring is blue, why that nightkill on Sesq? It's literally Spring's only push, and she hasn't existed this phase in any capacity to clarify her current position except on GiF, who was pushing her during day 3. Sigh wifom I know.

Spring hasn't really interacted with any players/hasn't had other players interact with her other than GiF. Both Skitter and Icon questioned Spring when she dropped her town read of Alisae during day 3, however.

I can't really see any obvious pairs with Spring but she does feel really disconnected and not engaged with the game or the players. That does look like a scum play style and when I compare her content to both my OG scum reads, she comes off significantly weaker, despite apparently being a long time player (and conversely, Icon appears extra strong despite supposedly being new).

Spring doesn't look town to me. I could lynch this slot. We are 7 days into the phase and there's been no analysis or real thought from them - I at least have a pretty solid idea on where everybody else sits, but this slot is a mystery.

Next up, GiF, but first sleep.

[Sky_Paladin]

sigh you leave one bracket open

mod please fix <3

[skitter30]

I don't really think 'all you've done was rallying people who were already scumreading RF' is entirely accurate

I meant that's how I created the wagon.
I voiced my own suspicion vs RF and I remember saying that I take full responsibility with that with pride.

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

-------------

876 - my point is that the progression on alisae was gross and seemed more like she saw that an alisae wagon was gaining momentum so she changed her read to allow herself to vote there.

-------------

I found evidence that admitted fabricated at least some of her reads in my previous bloc and I don’t specifically know if that was addressed

Sky, this never happened. I didn't fabricate anything. You didn't show me fabricating anything.

You're using things that never happened to substantiate your case.

Here's another example:

Between Skitter/Icon, I think Icon has the stronger town play though I would like explanations of how

he is now town reading Skitter

and scum reading me. This doesn't appear to have developed naturally.

Spoiler: Icons read on me

Sky_Paladin - scum / not with Mikan
Sesq - town
Mikan Tsumiki - scum / Most sure about this one, pretty sure partnered with aneninen based on ISO. If anyone cares I can go into further detail here.
skitter30 - not sure
GuyInFreezer - town
Springlullaby - not sure

This is a copy of my previous readlist.

I'm down 100% for lynching sky today. Skitter as secondary option.

other thoughts?

Interesting that we don't have flips on any of the players who voted Alisae. I personally expected GiF or myself to be the night kill because GiF had for a long time pushed the narrative of blue scum being Sky/Mikan, and with Mikan flipping red (and red being dead) that doesn't hold water any more. So, what better way to setup a GiF mislynch then by killing me and showing a green flip? Skitter has wanted GiF lynched for most of the game - wouldn't that be enough?
If somebody wanted to push a mislynch on me, the easiest way would be to kill a player who I'd been focusing on. Is that why Kop was killed? Is that why Sesq was killed? But red killed Kop and blue killed Sesq.

If both mafia teams hated me so much, why not just kill me? Or am I just obviously mislynchable?

Or, more likely, you are scum

I'm also interested in you proving that i've been working together with skitter.
Because if you flip scum, I'm putting him at 50/50 with spring as your partner.

Notice how I'm his second biggest scumread in all the posts he has today wherein he mentions a read on me.

Sky, you're using evidence that doesn't exist to back up your conclusions.

------------------

I'm becoming increasingly concerned by the lack of content from spring / gif and I kinda feel like they're content to just let me/sky/ico argue it out between us.

P-edit: I haven't read through sky's last post.

[GuyInFreezer]

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

I'm saying that I, too, scumread RF.
But that is really all I have done to form a wagon. I didn't beg people, tried to convince people, etc.
I literally just grabbed the posts where people said they scumread RF and told them to hop in.

[Sky_Paladin]

@Skitter

I promise to respond to Icon's posts and your posts this phase before putting a vote down anywhere. I accept I say a lot of things from feelings and what I thought I remembered and often times over many games and places those things get jumbled up. Then when I sit down with some time to spare I can look back and see that the way I remembered it is not always how it happened.

[Sky_Paladin]

@Skitter

I wold be a whole lot less likely to believe in scum!Skitter and scum!Icon if your response to an ISO about Icon wasn't focused solely on my interpretation on his read about you.

What about the rest of the stuff where Icon could be scum independently?

[Sky_Paladin]

of you?

ie with Spring
Or even GiF

hell even me.

Just something that shows me your investment is outside of yourself.

[Sky_Paladin]

you know hwat don't worry about the last post.
I know youre gonna say 'your making stuff up again' sure fine whateer. Its 2:30 am I can't do it now.

Just read the post on Icon
Tell me if you think he is scum/not scum and why.

[skitter30]

I kinda want to lynch spring more than sky.

Sky is at best super-conf-biased, and I really, really feel like he should be re-evaluating things using facts instead of just making stuff up to support his conclusions, and is ignoring me when I'm pointing this out. It's really hard for me to see this coming from town in LYLO.

Thing that's giving me pause is that the last time I said it's really hard for me to see his behavior coming from town in MYLO, I voted him and that lost town the game, so yeah, I'm feeling kinda wary about doing the same thing.

P-edit: Sky, I'm on mobile atm and it was the easiest thing for me to pick out to prove my point without opening up six billion tabs. Planning on going through the rest of it when I get off mobile in a bit.

[skitter30]

OK, going through this now.

OK hey I got some time to play. Here we go. Let's look at Icon. First of all, happy scumday, Icon! Have a read on your ISO to lighten up your day

So, this line is perhaps the most interesting line in the entire post for me. You wish icon a happy scumday. The thing is that it isn't icon's scumday - it's mine. (or was in your timezone when you were writing the post; whatever)

What this shows me is that you aren't paying a lot of attention to details, and that you're conflating memory with fact (I know that you said that this is what you're doing, but this kinda makes it a lot easier for me to believe.). And since this is clearly not game-related, it kinda makes me think you're just misreading things in general, and that the misreps probably aren't planned, since you're misreading things not directly game-related too. So although the misreps are annoying me, I don't think they're inherently scum-motivated, like I did previously.

This is just throwing me for a loop, since you don't really seem to be the type of player that would misread things this badly - like you're going through all these posts in great detail and I just don't get how you keep on seeing things that aren't there. But I'm pretty sure now that you aren't doing it on purpose (ie purposefully misrepping me to score a mislynch), but it does mean that you're not playing the way I'd expect you to, so I'm having trouble reading you confidantly.

I don't want to lynch you today. Right now, I do think you're incredibly conf-biased and that you're finding evidence to support your pre-existing notions.

---------------

He started out hard on Not Mafia which turned out not to matter because NM was town. All of Icon's first posts, up til 132, were drilling Not Mafia for claiming mafia.

I think this is the most important part of his ISO cuz I just don't see this coming from bluescum. Can you please address this point specifically?

---------------

The empty unvote a mere 70 posts later in 531 is therefore counter-intuitive; Icon actually drops his scum read on Beefster while disagreeing with Beefster's push on GiF. The unvote reason was because 'effort' but effort is not alignment indicative. So this unvote does bother me as I would have thought Icon would gravitate to his next intuitive read of scum!Hawk.

So things like this is where I'm getting *new* from, like the fact that he's reading effort as being AI.

--------------

Scrolling through, Icon never responded to this, and instead jumped on to the Beefster wagon in 559 to put him at L-1, because at this point Beefster had basically desintegrated and had lost all credibility.

If people don't respond to me I usually drop it; I don't really see the point of badgering people if they aren't responding to me.

---------------

Note in particular Hawk/Aninenen vanished from Icon's reads, and then Hawk/Aninenen died that night phase to blue mafia.

I don't understand the connection you're drawing here. Why is not having a read on Hawk/Aninenen suspicious in this context?

Who else died to blue mafia? Tatl and Tael, a player who Icon questioned over their interactions with Skitter, who was then flat out ignored by Icon once Tatl and Tael had moved on.

Hey, who is the player that Icon wants to lynch this day phase? Sky_Paladin, the player who has given Skitter the most trouble.

The cynic in me suggests this is probably not a coincidence.

Bolded: it's lylo. Why would scum do this instead of just pushing for the easiest mislynch?

Also I think it's kinda silly to suggest that TT got killed because blue-scum icon didn't like their townread on his partner. Like the 'interactions with skitter' that you're objecting to is that TT was townreading me for that post, but ico wasn't. Why would the follow-up there be to kill tt?

I think Icon's play looks town on day 1 and 3, and scum on day 2. The night kills seem to straight up implicate Icon as blue mafia although I can't place the Sesq one.

You're kinda arguing that the nks implicate ico *in reference to me*, not ico individually. (although I don't really understand the logic on any of them tbh).

I'm not sure why you're objecting to me responding to the bits about me when this post isn't really analyzing ico only, but more analyzing a me/ico scumteam from the ico side. Like a lot of this post *is* about me.

Between Skitter/Icon, I think Icon has the stronger town play though I would like explanations of how he is now town reading Skitter and scum reading me. This doesn't appear to have developed naturally.

Perhaps the townread on me didn't develop naturally cuz it doesn't exist.

pressure against players who looked the wrong way at Skitter.

As far as I can tell, this is talking about TT, but they were townreading me, so this doesn't make sense.

----------------

spring

599 - yeah, I agree. she's not doing much to try to prevent a lynch on someone she seems to be townreading. It's actually kinda white-knight-y/'claiming towncred for correctly reading a flipped townie', if you compare that to 'I'm not very happy about the beefster lynch' from 647 and 'beefster was quite obviously town to me' from 659.

I feel like sesq was super obvious lynchbait and kinda exactly where scum would want to push - kinda like scum pushing on NM, like Hawk did. I'm just wondering if spring would kill a major scumread of hers, leaving her with nowhere to push?

@spring: what *date* did you replace in?

I'm getting kinda paranoid of GIF/spring, with some major distancing/bussing going on.

[GuyInFreezer]

Ok I'm decided.

I'm locking on my Sky townread.

VOTE: Spring

[Sky_Paladin]

A quick one for Skitter since I've only had 5 hours sleep

There's a giant cake over Icon's posts. That's why I said happy scumday. Is it not his scumday?



Yes I see GiF's Spring vote. GiF while I appreciate the town read I would appreciate it a hell of a lot more if you actually put any value into my posts - I haven't seen you ever give any sign you agree/disagree with anything I've written, at least not where it matters. I feel you should have some interest in the fact Icon/Sky/Skitter have spent what feels like a month in RL fighting and that comprises over 50% of the player base.

[Sky_Paladin]

I guess I'll wait a few hours and see if that's game over though :/

[Sky_Paladin]

https://imgur.com/a/r8wV0

[GuyInFreezer]

A quick one for Skitter since I've only had 5 hours sleep

There's a giant cake over Icon's posts. That's why I said happy scumday. Is it not his scumday?



Yes I see GiF's Spring vote. GiF while I appreciate the town read I would appreciate it a hell of a lot more if you actually put any value into my posts - I haven't seen you ever give any sign you agree/disagree with anything I've written, at least not where it matters. I feel you should have some interest in the fact Icon/Sky/Skitter have spent what feels like a month in RL fighting and that comprises over 50% of the player base.

This is where I am right now

- 5 people left.
- Sky is town.

- 3 left.
- Between {Ice/skitter/spring}, spring is defo scum

- I'll figure out from {Ice/skitter} later.

[GuyInFreezer]

Also re: not really responding

I'm reading posts, but I'm reading them to see how town/scummy they are, not to analyze, if that makes sense.

[skitter30]

@sky

huh, that's weird: https://imgur.com/tSbjnYc

Either way, I'm pretty sure that you're just super conf-biased. I think you're probably town, but I don't really trust your judgement tbh. Don't really know how to argue you out of it either.

I think sky is town.

Spring is probably scum.

I don't think icon/mumble-slot are scum together - I don't think icon jokes like that with NM's bluemafia claim. I don't think blue-scum mumble *pushes his partner* for joking about NM's bluemafia claim.

Spoiler:

You expect me to actually utilise my brain? Pls

Fair point.

Okay guys you got me, I can't handle the pressure anymore, I'm Ice Mafia, you can leash me if you spare my life

VOTE: Not Mafia

Out your scumpartner so we can leash the both of you. Also, your name suggests otherwise and I don't like liars.
I guarantee cookies for complying.

Fair point.

No, it's not.

Ofcourse. If his claim is real let's have him prove it.
I lied about the cookies though, but don't tell him that.

Ice Mafia Goon Role PM wrote:
Welcome, [player name]. You are a Foreign Spy, along with your partner, [player name].

Abilities:
•Factional Communication:

During the night phase you may talk with your partner here

[Private Topic link].
•Factional Kill: Each night phase, one of you or your partner may perform the factional kill.

Win Condition:
You win when the other mafia team is eliminated and you control 50% of the town or nothing can prevent this from occurring.

Quoted from OP. Bolded part. You do not fool me. Give us your scumpartner if you want to live.

VOTE: Iconeum

Like...43 could have been funny and RVSy. But your 51, 54, and 58 are just...unnecessary and fake. Especially 58.

Talk to you Monday, I guess. Wouldn't be surprised to see you pop in soon.

I don't really think this is a blue-scum partner interaction over someone else claiming bluescum. Like since you guys disagree on bluescum ico can someone tell me why?

If ico isn't blue-scum, and I don't really think mumble doesn't make sense a a partner there anyways, and sky I think is probably town (although I disagree with like everything you're saying), I'm kinda left with spring and GIF. But GIF's voting patterns yesterday and today don't really match.

Idk, I'm kinda confused and frustrated by this game.

[Viomi]

LYLO

VOTE COUNT

springlullaby

(1) (L-2) - GuyInFreezer

Not Voting:

Iconeum, skitter30, Sky_Paladin, springlullaby

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Tick tock... (expired on 2018-04-03 06:00:00)

[skitter30]

I'm pretty sure spring is scum, and it's been like a week and she's said nothing of substance. I tried to metadive but they haven't played in like three years so I didn't get much out of that.

VOTE: Spring

I don't know who her partner is.

Hoping this doesn't lose the game.

[GuyInFreezer]

I see no hammer
I have a good feeling