Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Scioness Sajj]

@scioness sajj I promised not to engage you, so please feel free to ignore this. I'm hoping we're past that, but I understand if we're not.

Now that I'm town reading you, I'd really like an updated read list from you.

Nah, it's fine, you can talk to me.

I'm not fully caught up like almost not at all on what has been posted today but:

eth0s - saw his readlist and I agree with most of it, didn't really see more so null
ruru - she was scummy townie and she still is
ofrhz - I feel like we will just keep miscommunicating, so I will porb get better read on him from seeing him talk to other, townlean
pin - I can understand why he is townreading you from the things he has explained to me recently. I don't understand why he has unvoted you because of your skitter read that was one of points where I have gained my confidence in you being scum. I also don't understand why he got into the game with it has to be 'tvs' and it seems he never reconsidered it. Like he isn't allowing himself to not scumread on of us. It gives a decisive in his indecisive vibe. His case on me seems sort of shaky. Like some of the things he mentioned feel taken out of context and brought up again even though they have been answered (espeically the early game things) other points I can understand. The case is really uneven? I don't know I want to see more from him and his readlist
oxy - I still don't understand why you didn't push me when I went into 'me or you'. Like you have stopped tunneling me for 'ate' after 'me or you' and not before for 'ate' when I said I'd never play with you if you are town. And imo the 'ate' from before my case was stronger than the 'ate' after. So idk little mysteries, I will probably try to figure out later in the game if needed. But 504 feels genuine. Townlean, but this one will probably be a jumpy read untill I sort you again.
NSG - I really need her to play the game, null
skitter - she was left alone in this game with three new players for a week. She put a lot of her focus on trying to understand us/explain things but I can't see it as her passing by with no content or trying ate us. have not read her back and forth with you yet. townlean.
drixx - same as NSG

[Assemblerotws]

Vote Count 1.09

Not Voting [5]:

northsidegal, Drixx, skitter30, Scioness Sajj, Oxy

Drixx [2]:

ofrhz, ruru

Scioness Sajj [1]:

pinturicchio

Oxy [1]:

eth0s

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Day ends in (expired on 2018-04-03 09:00:00) on

April 3, 2018

.

[pinturicchio]

mod, did you prod Drixx?

[Assemblerotws]

mod, did you prod Drixx?

I have now.

[skitter30]

@oxy:

eli5 what you were planning on doing wrt to the drixx wagon if he had been at L-1 for 24 hours and hadn't posted at all.

[skitter30]

I was looking for a potential 5th vote. Specifically, I was looking for someone who I wasn't sure of so that I could force them to take a stand on whatever Drixx ended up posting. My goal was to make Pin decide whether or not to give intent to hammer, and to tell me why.

I don't understand why you were planning this and *setting up pin in particular to have to decide whether or not to make the hammer vote* when the wagon was at one vote.

Again, given the context of setting up a wagon with all of your townreads, it looked like you were pressuring him to want to join that group by hammering.

When you say that "I went through with the plan" I find that disingenuous because a) I can't force pin to give intent b) I can't force anyone to stay on the wagon, and c) we could have had this entire conversation with you on/off the wagon instead of you telling me that I was pushing a lynch. You WERE town reading me at that point. Why not have the conversation you're saying I was dodging? And at the point I voted, the "conversation" was a one liner from you saying you weren't comfortable with a lynch in the middle of a wall of unrelated items. I didn't even know we were having a conversation.

400 looks to me like you were going through with your plan - it was like 'hey, now he's at L-1! Drixx, post something good or else!'

No, you can't force pin to give intent or make other people stay on the wagon, but you were actively courting my vote and telling me to vote again after I unvoted, which is indicative of wanting the wagon to stay at L-1 and wanting your plan to go through.

And I was under the impression that we *were* having a convo about this at the time. I thought it was still under discussion, and was not expecting you to follow-up like that. I was saying that you were pushing a lynch, cuz as I understood your plan, you were pushing for a lynch in the absence of townie posts within that deadline, which I don't agree with. (specifically I don't think 'no posts' == 'scummy posts')

answering 633
By recent play, I'm referencing all of what we've been discussing this evening about your play.
That's a great narrative for scum!oxy. Could it also be that I've got a million town reads, and I'm reevaluating people because I'm probably wrong somewhere?

I'm specifically asking what prompted you to re-evaluate. You're telling me it's because of 'recent play' but since you liked my reaction to drixx at the time, I don't understand what I posted last night that made you want to re-evaluate it. Like 'recent play' is very broad and it seems like you're referencing something specific as being out of character for me which prompted you to re-evulate drixx but I don't know what instigated that.

[Oxy]

@oxy:

eli5 what you were planning on doing wrt to the drixx wagon if he had been at L-1 for 24 hours and hadn't posted at all.

If he hadn't posted at all, then I would have suggested we try pressuring someone else. That means I would have suggested that we remove our votes from Drixx and put them on someone else to pressure them into posting. At the time, that would have been eth0s or NSG because they were the two other people being inactive. You're absolutely right that wagoning someone to pressure them into posting doesn't work if they are just going to refuse to play entirely. Eventually, of course, if Drixx were to just never engage with this game, I would advocate a policy lynch, but I wouldn't advocate for that until D2 at the earliest.

[skitter30]

No offense, but 645 kinda sounds like bs to explain your pin vote.

Like it doesn't exactly contradict anything you wrote, but the mindset you're explaining there doesn't match the tone of the posts where you voted/unvoted pin. Like those posts seem very confident: "you got the pocketing attempt backwards"; "I haven't townread you for one minute this game". 565 in particular reads like you've just had some major epiphany and that you're now convinced he's scum and that you're surprised at how good his pocketing game is. Like you seem *very* confident on scum!pin in 565.

Like if you were actually now considering maybe scum!pin, I would've had expected you to say something like 'you know what, I'm not sure on pin because he kinda felt pocket-y, maybe I should go and check and see what I find', whereas you were talking to someone you strongly believed to be scum and like you couldn't believe they managed to pull the wool over your eyes for that long.

I don't know how to explain the timing thing. The vote felt wrong in the current gamestate. Like there was no leadup to it and you were indicating a semi-townlean on him and the confidance came out of nowhere. Like it felt premature and context-less. Idk how to explain that better.

[skitter30]

Also if it's me/drixx, scum!me has no reason to pick drixx to vote out of {scioness/nsg/drixx/eth0s} there if that was the proposed plan. I could very easily have voted eth0s; there were two votes there and I could've just let the 24-hour lynch thing happen without involving partner!drixx in it at all to get a mislynch and let the day end fast. Like if I was scum with drixx there's no reason for me not to just support the plan on anyone not my partner without starting all of this in the first place.

I'm not sure I agree that there is no benefit to scum!skitter in choosing scum!Drixx (and I mentioned some of the benefits in my post), but I still need to think a bit more on whether or not scum!skitter would actually do it. And I really don't think it's an alternative to "just let the 24-hour lynch thing happen [...] to get a mislynch and let the day end fast". I find it really hard to imagine a universe where that actually happens, and actively pushing it after 24h would make you look extremely scummy.

Also, I agree that Oxy's vote on pin was weirdly timed, but I feel like it was not necessarily out of character.

Idk what to say beyond this isn't how scum!me would ever play that partnered with scum!drixx. I would never promote a wagon on my partner and put pressure on him and call attention to his lurking-ness if I had multiple other options to push that would be just as easy to push.

Like I would be too worried of oxy's plan actually coming to fruition (even if I didn't think it was immediately going to happen) to start messing around with promoting a wagon on an inactive partner.

[Oxy]

I was looking for a potential 5th vote. Specifically, I was looking for someone who I wasn't sure of so that I could force them to take a stand on whatever Drixx ended up posting. My goal was to make Pin decide whether or not to give intent to hammer, and to tell me why.

I don't understand why you were planning this and *setting up pin in particular to have to decide whether or not to make the hammer vote* when the wagon was at one vote.

Again, given the context of setting up a wagon with all of your townreads, it looked like you were pressuring him to want to join that group by hammering.

You don't understand why I wanted to pressure people into posting content? I wanted to be able to sort their alignment, and I couldn't do that while they were getting a pass to lurk. I was setting up Pin for two reasons. 1) A threat to lynch isn't very compelling if there is no one willing to hammer. At the time I strongly scum read Sajj, so I didn't want her anywhere near it. I didn't have a very strong read on Pin, so forcing him to take a stand would give me information on him and give me a strong interaction between him and drixx.

Consider this scenario: Drixx is at L-1. Drixx posts something townie. I ask Pin, "What do you think? Is drixx scum? Should we hammer?" Pin says, "No, you fool, that was townie as heck." Pin then looks townier in my book, and we get off the wagon. If Pin starts bullshitting reasons why he thinks it's scummy, Pin looks scummier in my book and we get off the wagon.

Drixx posts something scummy. I ask Pin, "What do you think? Is drixx scum? Should we hammer?" Pin says, "No, you fool, that was townie as heck." Pin then looks scummier in my book and we get off the wagon. If Pin starts hard scum reading Drixx, then Pin looks townier in my book, and we get off the wagon.

Obviously Pins reactions and my reads on pins reactions are just examples, and what actually would have happened would need to be evaluated thoughtfully, but that's the basic idea.

The difference between my philosophy and yours is that I believe showing a WILLINGNESS to hammer makes the incentive to give real effort when making their next post a lot stronger for the person being pressured.

[Oxy]

400 looks to me like you were going through with your plan - it was like 'hey, now he's at L-1! Drixx, post something good or else!'

No, you can't force pin to give intent or make other people stay on the wagon, but you were actively courting my vote and telling me to vote again after I unvoted, which is indicative of wanting the wagon to stay at L-1 and wanting your plan to go through.

Yup, it's super scummy of me to 1) present an idea for how to pressure lurkers into posting so that we can sort their alignment. 2) Get excited when it looks like my town reads are going along with my idea. 3) Try to convince them to stick with my idea because I think it's a good idea.

[pinturicchio]

You're relying that your reads are better than mine in that case, because saying "drixx posts something townie/scummy" is assuming that Drixx is town/scum, so your read on me would've still be lame. Also, "drixx posts something scummy ---> Pin start hard scum reading Drixx ----> we get off the wagon" doesn't seem right; we would have lynched Drixx in that case, and I believe that is something that skitter was afraid of, because determining Drixx alignment just because some posts defending himself after being inactive is lame.

[Oxy]

I'm specifically asking what prompted you to re-evaluate. You're telling me it's because of 'recent play' but since you liked my reaction to drixx at the time, I don't understand what I posted last night that made you want to re-evaluate it. Like 'recent play' is very broad and it seems like you're referencing something specific as being out of character for me which prompted you to re-evulate drixx but I don't know what instigated that.

I think misunderstandings are reasonable. I think you getting nervous/paranoid about the speed of the wagon could be reasonable, especially in the moment. I began getting suspicious when you didn't seem to reevaluate your understanding of the situation after significant time passed and multiple explanations were presented.

[Oxy]

You're relying that your reads are better than mine in that case, because saying "drixx posts something townie/scummy" is assuming that Drixx is town/scum, so your read on me would've still be lame. Also, "drixx posts something scummy ---> Pin start hard scum reading Drixx ----> we get off the wagon" doesn't seem right; we would have lynched Drixx in that case, and I believe that is something that skitter was afraid of, because determining Drixx alignment just because some posts defending himself after being inactive is lame.

the hell we would have. There were still two other inactives left to be pressured. There is a zero percent chance that I would have allowed a lynch in the situation where drixx posts content, scummy or not.

[Oxy]

No offense, but 645 kinda sounds like bs to explain your pin vote.

Like it doesn't exactly contradict anything you wrote, but the mindset you're explaining there doesn't match the tone of the posts where you voted/unvoted pin. Like those posts seem very confident: "you got the pocketing attempt backwards"; "I haven't townread you for one minute this game". 565 in particular reads like you've just had some major epiphany and that you're now convinced he's scum and that you're surprised at how good his pocketing game is. Like you seem *very* confident on scum!pin in 565.

Like if you were actually now considering maybe scum!pin, I would've had expected you to say something like 'you know what, I'm not sure on pin because he kinda felt pocket-y, maybe I should go and check and see what I find', whereas you were talking to someone you strongly believed to be scum and like you couldn't believe they managed to pull the wool over your eyes for that long.

I don't know how to explain the timing thing. The vote felt wrong in the current gamestate. Like there was no leadup to it and you were indicating a semi-townlean on him and the confidance came out of nowhere. Like it felt premature and context-less. Idk how to explain that better.

I told you what happened. I can't tell you how to evaluate it. I promise that in the next game we play, you won't have that expectation of town!oxy.

[Oxy]

What is it you people don't understand about showing a WILLINGNESS to lynch vs ACTUALLY LYNCHING someone.

[skitter30]

@oxy:

eli5 what you were planning on doing wrt to the drixx wagon if he had been at L-1 for 24 hours and hadn't posted at all.

If he hadn't posted at all, then I would have suggested we try pressuring someone else. That means I would have suggested that we remove our votes from Drixx and put them on someone else to pressure them into posting. At the time, that would have been eth0s or NSG because they were the two other people being inactive. You're absolutely right that wagoning someone to pressure them into posting doesn't work if they are just going to refuse to play entirely. Eventually, of course, if Drixx were to just never engage with this game, I would advocate a policy lynch, but I wouldn't advocate for that until D2 at the earliest.

Right, so your plan outlined in 379, coupled with 398 looked to me like you were cool with hammering someone *even if they hadn't posted at all*.

Like I get what you're saying now that you meant 398 wrt to over the course of the entire game, but like, that isn't what it sounded like in context.

I kinda feel like a lot of this argument is me saying 'I thought you meant A in post X', and then you saying, 'no post X really meant B', but given the context wherein post X was written, B wasn't the obvious connotation to me, and A seems a lot more of an obvious explanation to me given the surrounding posts.

I'm kinda wondering if I'm majorly misreading your posts. I'm also kinda wondering if you're like reinterpreting your posts after the fact to make them sound better when I object to them.

[Oxy]

I'm just gonna take a break. Good luck solving this game. If ya'll end up scum reading me, make damn sure you give me 12 hours after intent to hammer, because I am 100% not the lynch today.

[skitter30]

Yeah I need a break too and to like not think about this for a bit, and then go back and try to reread from a fresh perspective.

Also I'm pretty sure I get what you're saying ffs; you're being kinda blatant. Like hi I'm not voting you cuz of 547, and that's why I went through this whole thing last night and this mroning by trying to understand what you meant this whole time instead of just voting you for your pin vote.

[pinturicchio]

@Scioness:
I made my case on you by ISOing you, maybe that's why my commentary is out of context or was already answered. First off, I totally misrepped your "scumhunting" post, so I take that back. I thought you were saying you were applying a new strategy to scumhunt, not that this was literally your first game being town. I mean, that still is up to WIFOM, but is not what I thought you were saying, sorry! This also means that my post about your first readlist was wrong, because again, I thought you were doing a scumhunting method and that made no sense with a readlist without scums lol.
About ruru's reaction test: yeah you don't have to explain everything, but if you are doing a reaction test, I would hope to know about the results at sometime? But as I said, you made sense. Now, a reaction test can be made by town or scum, so this doesn't tell me much
I do think that almost all the inconsistencies I saw from you were misrepped because of a stupidity of mine.

The thing is, I'm way better at townhunting that scumhunting, so I'm pretty sure about my townreads (ofrhz, eth0s and even Oxy who has been doing some weird posts lately), so by PoE I still believe you are a good lynch from my point of view. At this point, when I get too many townreads, my best course of action is to worry that my townreads don't get lynched instead of worrying who could be scum; I have three townreads and a townlean (skitter), two nulls because of lack of content but I'd say that NSG could be town because she's acting like our last game together, and ruru and you who I don't see as town at this moment. That means that, even if my cases are shit (which usually are), my townreads are usually good, so you and ruru are my best bets for today.

[Oxy]

Also I'm pretty sure I get what you're saying ffs; you're being kinda blatant. Like hi I'm not voting you cuz of 547, and that's why I went through this whole thing last night and this mroning by trying to understand what you meant this whole time instead of just voting you for your pin vote.

I'm 100% not the lynch today because if you think I'm the scummiest person in this game you're off your rocker. On. What. Planet. Does. Scum!Oxy. Play. This. Game?????????????????????????

[Drixx]

mod, did you prod Drixx?

I have now.

I really did say that I was going to be down active. I'm here and back on page 16. Reading and you can have a wall of catchup™ as soon as possible

[pinturicchio]

One more thing: I'm kinda worried about the deadline of this day, because this sunday is easter and I don't know how that will affect the participation of some players in this game. I know for sure it will affect my posting as I'm going to spend this weekend with my family and we're leaving home, so I will have limited access and only through my phone. Is anyone else having that problem like me? Because if I'm not the only one, maybe we should ask the mod to extend the deadline, or we're going to make a pressured decision. I'm not up to any policy lynches, I don't advocate to that kind of strategy.

[Drixx]

Interesting that you want to narrow the options down to a post on the first page or one of a series of posts you made preceding my post. Why are you trying to control the narrative like that?

lol what. You realize if you came back and simply said you weren’t referring to either of these posts, then my so-called attempt to control the narrative would fall apart instantly right?

Furthermore, your attempt to portray my question as anything other than intended purely for clarification implodes once you realize that I never tried to speculate any further about what you were trying to say. I was patiently waiting for you to come back and explain yourself in whatever way you wish.

Are you interested in answering my question? Or are you just throwing things around to see what sticks?
VOTE: Drixx

I didn't say

If, and ONLY if

which would need to be the situation for what you're pushing here.

Not to be a bother about logic, but your original statement was: if ofrhz = scum, then Oxy = scum. So then, if Oxy =/= scum, then ofrhz =/= scum by invoking the contrapositive.

There's a fallacy there. That only applies if you can apply the law of excluded middle, and you cannot here. There are four possible sets:

{Scum, Scum}
{Scum, Town}
{Town, Scum}
{Town, Town}

There exists a possible set where we have not p, but still q

[Drixx]

One more thing: I'm kinda worried about the deadline of this day, because this sunday is easter and I don't know how that will affect the participation of some players in this game. I know for sure it will affect my posting as I'm going to spend this weekend with my family and we're leaving home, so I will have limited access and only through my phone. Is anyone else having that problem like me? Because if I'm not the only one, maybe we should ask the mod to extend the deadline, or we're going to make a pressured decision. I'm not up to any policy lynches, I don't advocate to that kind of strategy.

Policy lynches are awful. I also will be tied up most of Sunday as my handbell choir is performing in the afternoon and evening.