Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[ofrhz]

You implied in 694 that you did understand why I voted you though and just thought it was a stupid reason.

[ruru]

Huh?

[ofrhz]

On phone so can’t quote

But you said “I guess that’s

one reason

to vote” or something. What did you think that one reason was?

[ruru]

You evidently forgot why you townleaned me and didn't like my recent posts and for reasons I don't understand concluded they were scummy enough to vote on me.

[Scioness Sajj]

Ruru, do you scum read ofrhz?

(on phone more later)

[ruru]

No, I think he is fairly towny

[ofrhz]

Yeah I first thought your vote on drixx was a ploy to seem more town. At that point, you were slightly scummy in my eyes.

Earlier I said I was townleaning you for 483 but after rereading, theres no reason to townlean yu for that post. Truth be told I was just reading the posts on a very shallow level because I was busy irl

In the immediate aftermath of skitters Unvote, nothing about her unvote seemed suspicious to you. Or if it did, you didn’t say anything, because you definitely posted about other stuff. I don’t like how you only started considering skitter’s vote scummy after Oxy started probing skitter for scummy intentions. It seems like you’re just following Oxy in this game (first with the vote, then with “maybe skitter is suspicious”). Oxy is also the only person who has consistently been reading you as town I think.

[ruru]

Yeah I first thought your vote on drixx was a ploy to seem more town. At that point, you were slightly scummy in my eyes.

Earlier I said I was townleaning you for 483 but after rereading, theres no reason to townlean yu for that post. Truth be told I was just reading the posts on a very shallow level because I was busy irl

In the immediate aftermath of skitters Unvote, nothing about her unvote seemed suspicious to you. Or if it did, you didn’t say anything, because you definitely posted about other stuff.

I didn't find it too suspicious at the time, but I didn't really like some of her arguments about it and wondered if she might be intentionally misunderstanding the situation.

I don’t like how you only started considering skitter’s vote scummy after Oxy started probing skitter for scummy intentions.

I don't remember it happening in this order so could you link what you're referring to?

It seems like you’re just following Oxy in this game (first with the vote, then with “maybe skitter is suspicious”). Oxy is also the only person who has consistently been reading you as town I think.

I don't think this is true at all, like when he wanted to lynch SS or when he posted his "gamesolve". He's also the only person trying to lead. I follow him when I agree with him.

[Drixx]

Just for the record: those posts I made earlier were cryptic intentionally. I WANTED reactions to them. When I get done catching up, I will go back and evaluate the reactions compared to what I would expect from town and scum and explain myself a bit more.

Since we got the extension, I'm going to finish my grading and final grades work today. If I get it done quickly I'll be able to finish catching up tonight.

[skitter30]

I agree with lot of 679; drixx highlighted a lot of the posts that I found super alarming at the time.

I almost feel like oxy's reads are informed almost? Idk how to explain that better. Like he's *too* certain about his townreads, and his scumread of scioness was too confident, and he kinda sounded like he thought drixx was going to flip town, but was pushing it anyways, and that we'd just lynch the lolhammerer the next day. It kinda felt like he was setting up the next day's lynch after a drixx flip, no matter what drixx flipped.

I really do think NSG needs to like say something at this point; she's definitely active elsewhere on site so it kinda looks like she's just avoiding this game.

@ruru, 694 - I thought you were scumreading cuz you thought I was protecting partner!drixx. Why isn't scum!me an indicator of scum!drixx then? IE are you scumreading me independently of the drixx?

I really like scioness' 695 and her read on ruru, which felt very nuanced to me. I think I'm townleaning scioness now. And I agree with 696 as well - that's why I found the wagon speed very alarming cuz I viewed mine/ofrzh's votes as pressuring votes because of his posts but it felt like ruru and oxy were pressuring him for activity reasons and it seemed to me they wanted to *lynch* him over it.

@ofrzh, 706 - iirc, ruru had been low-key mentioning she was scummy for a while, oxy asked her what she thought about me, she said she thought I was scummy, and then the me/oxy thing happened. It felt to me more like oxy was building on ruru's existing suspicions.

[skitter30]

I hope everyone enjoys any holidays they may be celebrating this weekend!

Drixx, I hope you have a nice, meaningful seder with your family!

And now I'm v/la till Sunday night or Monday

[eth0s]

will contribute tonight.

[Scioness Sajj]

His posts seemed intended to generate confusion and the 2nd post felt like he was intentionally not clarifying. I think that's more scummy than towny especially when we're starting to approach end of day, there were multiple lurkers, and it seems like there's a decent chance we'll be scrambling at the last minute to agree on a day 1 lynch.

I feel like it's not nearly scummy enough to get scum!Drixx lynched regardless, plus since it's an isolated couple posts rather than trolling throughout the thread, he can always say it was a reaction test whether or not that was his motivation. (eth0s also did a reaction test that I scumread while he was posting less; the difference is that his didn't actively generate confusion which makes it not scummy to me in retrospect.) So yes, I think scum!Drixx has something to gain from it, and town has something to gain by Drixx explaining himself, regardless of his alignment.

What reasons would scum!drixx have to be scummy like that? The only reason I can think of is if his scum mate was being strongly scumread at that time and said scum mate had bigger value than Drixx.
In the first part you agree it was scummy enough to warrant a lynch. In the second part you say it wasn't at first but then in last sentence you say he was scummy enough to get lynched. Can you tell me what you were thinking when placing naked vote on Drixx?

The play that could have been made, but wasn't, depends on players collectively bluffing without revealing that they are bluffing.

What makes you sure it was not the case? What players could have to be collectively bluffing?

[northsidegal]

hi, i'm going to stop trying to catch up fully before talking because i think it's prohibiting me from actually playing the game and is actually harming my reads formation

[northsidegal]

here are a few random thoughts:

i noticed a specific towntell from pintu, and even though it's one that if we were in a game together i might expect him to fake as scum, it happened before i replaced in. perhaps it's bad to use meta the way i do on someone whose meta is developing every game, but i'm trusting it for now and i haven't gotten any bad feelings from what i've read otherwise.

i'm still kind of going back and forth on scioness. i feel like when i replaced in she started acting slightly strange for a while with the unvoting and waiting before talking about reads. the tinfoil hat theory is that she thought what she was doing was scummy and that i'd be able to see that so she immediately switched, but that kind of egotistically relies on her thinking that i could read her better than anyone else. as far as the hard tunnelling of oxy goes, i'm inclined to say that it's more likely to come from town than from scum.

[northsidegal]

i'm pretty confident on ruru and ofhrz being town. i don't know how much needs to be said there – if there are people who strongly disagree i'd be interested to hear why. history shows that i have a tendency to (falsely) townread newbies with a verbose or explanatory playstyle, but i really don't think i'm doing that here.

i got bad pings from eth0s reading through the thread, but i'm not sure how much of that i'd actually be able to verbalize outside of just a few notes written down.

skitter and drixx i don't really have any confident reads on yet. for skitter it's because i think most of what she's said (that i've read, at least) could easily be faked by scum. for drixx, i think it's just that i haven't read enough of anything he's said (though i still wouldn't be confident on my ability to read him – from what i've heard or at least remember, he's pretty good at scum).

[northsidegal]

One thing i definitely will say is that i think you all may be being a bit too conservative with your votes, and this is coming from someone who's been described as only voting people when i'm ready to instantly murder them. especially before assemble granted the extension, deadline might have crept up without any real wagons formed. i don't know if drixx has touched on this yet, but in my opinion it hurts town to have a gamestate like this with so few people voting – there's less information to look back on and analyze later in the game when we have some flips to work with.

[Scioness Sajj]

Thanks for the extantion Assemblerotws!

@ofrhz
613 - yeah I believe you know what I'm talking about (it's not much of a problem, I just had to f+ctrl 'sorry'. the page where the post you quoted was commented in scum pt by me was page 10.) if I missed something you want answered lmk

I think I will answer Eth0s before Pin (sorry, Pin! I will get to you today eventually). I have stronger townleans on ofrhz and skitter for that lynch.

[ofrhz]

Yeah I first thought your vote on drixx was a ploy to seem more town. At that point, you were slightly scummy in my eyes.

Earlier I said I was townleaning you for 483 but after rereading, theres no reason to townlean yu for that post. Truth be told I was just reading the posts on a very shallow level because I was busy irl

In the immediate aftermath of skitters Unvote, nothing about her unvote seemed suspicious to you. Or if it did, you didn’t say anything, because you definitely posted about other stuff.

I didn't find it too suspicious at the time, but I didn't really like some of her arguments about it and wondered if she might be intentionally misunderstanding the situation.

I don’t like how you only started considering skitter’s vote scummy after Oxy started probing skitter for scummy intentions.

I don't remember it happening in this order so could you link what you're referring to?

It seems like you’re just following Oxy in this game (first with the vote, then with “maybe skitter is suspicious”). Oxy is also the only person who has consistently been reading you as town I think.

I don't think this is true at all, like when he wanted to lynch SS or when he posted his "gamesolve". He's also the only person trying to lead. I follow him when I agree with him.

Yeah I really fucked up the history on this one. Oxy implied he thought skitter was still town in 543. And I'm guessing you started being suspicious of skitter by 558. So yes, you're correct, it happened in the reverse order (i.e. ruru first got suspicious of skitter, then Oxy). I need to think about whether Oxy is still a townread for me. I know Oxy said he was reconsidering his reads (I'm guessing 570 is when Oxy started to do this), so maybe that's why he was probing skitter, but I don't get why he would follow such thin logic.

Can you tell me how you went from not really being suspicious of skitter to 558 where you were entertaining the idea of skitter as scum? Can you point to posts where skitter said something that might have prompted this? I'm still not following this. And my instincts are telling me that there was something wrong about the way skitter was scrutinized for her unvote, mainly because I would have done the same thing (unvoted) if I was in her position.

@sajj - given ruru's response in 699, does that change your read of her? A lot of the things you said seemed scummy about ruru but could be attributed to experience playing this game in other formats no longer applies.

Just for the record: those posts I made earlier were cryptic intentionally. I WANTED reactions to them.

This is all I wanted to know.

[Scioness Sajj]

@ofrhz I don't know, I'm waiting on explanation for the vote. I have no clue what she is talking about with the bluff thing and I didn't like her initial response to your vote, admitting she doesn't know also bothers me.

[Scioness Sajj]

It was a random vote with the added benefit that *if* he is lurking and not just AFK, that it might get him to talk. That purpose has already been somewhat derailed but now we have new information anyway.

ofrhz's "I don’t think lurking is a scum tell" is by far the scummiest thing I've seen so far.

Alright, thanks for the answers!
UNVOTE: ruru

why do you go from asking someone why they aren't participating in rvs to not placing a vote on anyone?

Ruru's first post pinged me, so I never really placed an rvs vote. I don't see how one is connected with another.

@oxy, so you have put all this effort in and came out with nothing because?

or that you're being kinda difficult with her but much more open with me.

I think he was tunneling me (I felt tunneled) and that's were his unwillingness to talk to me came from.

I actually think this is a fairly interesting bit of info tbh. If someone believes someone to be a stronger player, they'll read them differently than if they think they're a weaker player; the perceived capability of a player often affects the read.

Alright I understnad that, but how is it going to help eth0s solve the game? Is this meta related?

why are you so concerned about the question I asked drixx?? it's honestly just to hear something IC'ish from the IC and if I like it I may or may not sheep it. To me, when town, this game is all about being the detective or following a better one. You either make and publish the best or most convincing reads, or you follow the ones that sound good. So why is it so bad for me to ask someone more knowledgeable then me for info?

I asked because I didn't understand, skitter answered for you, but it didn't fully explain your post to me, so I asked again. I didn't like it at first because it seemed like you asked about something that was answered in the same post.

[Scioness Sajj]

1. First: I was trying to simplify as much as I could why Oxy was tunneling you so hard, but yeah of course it's not as simple as that. And yeah, I think he thought he was doing a great job putting you on top of mind of everyone by posting about you from time to time, so he leading a lynch was possible.

2. By less information I mean that, at the time you made the case on Oxy, you didn't know the alignment of anyone but yourself on the game; that's what I mean with ex post analysis. People would read your case knowing for sure that Oxy was town and try to debunk your case and maybe scumread you for it, but that would be unfair because the case is good. And no, when I said I liked your case I meant that, no matter your alignment, it's well constructed. I mean, if you are town, it's a great case and I would totally buy it, and if you're scum, you did a great job to drive a mislynch. I believe the latter because I started scumreading you before the case. Having good or bad reads is NAI from my point of view.

About the bolded: yes, it's biased, that's what I meant. From my point of view, Oxy is town, so seeing someone so convinced that Oxy is scum is weird for me, because one of us has to be wrong. But as I said, I'm not scumreading you for that, so no, town doesn't has to have the same reads, it only drew my attention that someone could be reading the game in such a different way.

Last: no need to thank me, I'm glad that you aren't having a bad time as I thought you were!

p-edit: shit, ninjaed to the death. @Scioness this was a reply to your post!!

1. If he was so sure I had to be scum, why he never picked it up again. And why he was willing to lynch any lurker? If he thought I was one scum then he should have looked for another and not 'whoever my townblock wants to lynch'? I think town!oxy, at that point, should have either go with lynching me if he couldn't find associatives in lukers. Also shouldn't you be conf town to him after you have dropped his scum read on me?
2. I don't understand your pov in this. If I'm scum in your eyes than my case on Oxy was made with all alignment informations because I was pushing for mislynch.

@Scioness:
I made my case on you by ISOing you, maybe that's why my commentary is out of context or was already answered. First off, I totally misrepped your "scumhunting" post, so I take that back. I thought you were saying you were applying a new strategy to scumhunt, not that this was literally your first game being town.

1. I mean, that still is up to WIFOM, but is not what I thought you were saying, sorry!

This also means that my post about your first readlist was wrong, because again, I thought you were doing a scumhunting method and that made no sense with a readlist without scums lol.

2. About ruru's reaction test: yeah you don't have to explain everything, but if you are doing a reaction test, I would hope to know about the results at sometime?

But as I said, you made sense. Now, a reaction test can be made by town or scum, so this doesn't tell me much
I do think that almost all the inconsistencies I saw from you were misrepped because of a stupidity of mine.

The thing is, I'm way better at townhunting that scumhunting, so I'm pretty sure about my townreads (ofrhz, eth0s and even Oxy who has been doing some weird posts lately), so by PoE I still believe you are a good lynch from my point of view. At this point, when I get too many townreads, my best course of action is to worry that my townreads don't get lynched instead of worrying who could be scum; I have three townreads and a townlean (skitter), two nulls because of lack of content but I'd say that NSG could be town because she's acting like our last game together, and ruru and you who I don't see as town at this moment. That means that, even if my cases are shit (which usually are), my townreads are usually good, so you and ruru are my best bets for today.

1. Don't understand how is it wifom.
2. It was explained.

Now, about "building a really good case on it", I think that you missed some essential posts about this:

I gave a townread on Oxy long time ago because his read on skitter was not what I was expecting from scum!Oxy, because he had two "conf!towns" and I was watching carefully for his next move: I thought he would give a scumlean or scumread to someone because it would suit his narrative as being the townleader but in reality leading town to mislynches. But he instead townread skitter, and having too many townreads on early game is not an optimal strategy for scum.

At that point of the game I thought Oxy was being very meticulous, so if Oxy was scum, I don't believe he would have gave skitter a townread. I read the whole thread after that, but believing Oxy was town instead of scum, and it made sense to me. So yes, I still thought that Oxy's and Scioness' 1v1 was a TvS, but now believing that Oxy is town, I started to think Scioness was the scum.

By the time Oxy has explained his townread on skitter to you, he already had her as townlean, though.
Also, what do you think of Oxy having such in-depth townread on skitter and his really meh case on me?
Still wanna know what was so good about my timing with my case on Oxy, I think you either didn't answer or forgot?

[ofrhz]

Northsidegal- what are your thoughts on Oxy?

[northsidegal]

i had him as a scumlean reading through. it might just be his style, but i feel like his posts are really LAMIST often – lots of talking about himself, about what he’ll be doing and how he’ll be rethinking things and such.

[pinturicchio]

Sorry for lack of content, as I said, I'm a little complicated, but I'm to stay read everything. Thanks for the extended deadline!!

Just two quick things:
1. I'm with NSG: start commiting with your votes. If you're afraid of being scumread because of commiting, you're not helping.
2. This could be a longshot, but someone brought the fact that ruru didn't said that, with her vote, Drixx was on L-1. Could this be a townslip?? Remember that she's a newbie so maybe she didn't know that was something you should do; if she was scum, her partner would've told her in their chat what L-1 is while talking about strategy or something like that... I know this is stretch, but I've been scumleaning almost all the game and I'm trying to decide if she's my best option to vote along with scioness.