Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[ruru]

I definitely think at least one scum is in eth0s/drixx/northsidegal/maybe skitter (yes I realize this is half the players in the game), just because their analysis of “this is a risky/overconfident play, ergo Oxy is scum” seems a bit... shallow? However, it doesn’t strike me as particularly likely that ruru would be teamed with any of them.

That isn't exactly my read on oxy. My read is more: a lot of LAMIST behavior; building a townbloc in a way that feels artificial to me; what appeared to me to be trying to push a lynch on an inactive player; possibly trying to pocket people.

Do you think LAMIST is scummy?

So, I think maybe some people (especially eth0s) have analyzed the game that way because they are kind of skimming the thread due to time constraints. Like in isolation 504 is scumpost of the game. If I read the whole thread in an hour I would probably think Oxy is scum too.

OK, why isn't that a scummy post when people have more time to read the game?

In the context of the game and what I think about Oxy's personality: he believes day 1 is not too random, he wants to solve the game, and he got increasingly tilted due to not being able to solve it with any kind of certainty. And I feel some of where he's coming from on this too; it's pretty frustrating working with limited information especially if it feels like half the players aren't trying.

So yeah, I read 504 as tilted town. If it were a hollywood movie then that post would be made by the villain, but this isn't a hollywood movie and I have a much harder time seeing scum get that tilted over allegedly failing to push a mislynch than I do seeing town get that tilted given the above.

Also I think that pressuring someone to explain a vote with like over a week left is different from putting them to L-1 and saying if they don't post pro-town stuff within a day they'll get lynched. Yeah, he might not have seen my vote on him for a couple of days, but like, the day wasn't going to be ending soon, so he'd see it whenever he caught up. Like it didn't matter to me if he saw it in 24 hours or 48 hours. If he catches up he'd see if eventually and see that was something taht concerned me.

The 24 hour deadline made me uncomfortable.

But in 436 you said 3 days would also make you uncomfortable (despite presumably it being very likely he shows up within 3 days due to activity requirements).

---

{ofrhz, Oxy}
{eth0s, SS}
{Drixx, pin}
{NSG, skitter}
{}

Why do you find Drixx less scummy than NSG and skitter?

At this point, Drixx and NSG are my top two lynch priorities. I'm just kind of confused why NSG is preferred over Drixx. At least nsg gave a readlist. Drixx has so far only talked about one person, which is seriously detrimental going into the next day of the game. Maybe two people if you count his reaction test on me.

I thought there was a better chance of NSG responding honestly that's the main reason. Also flipping Drixx doesn't seem that valuable to me.

---

VOTE: Ruru

Her naked vote on Drixx stands out. It was pretty opportunistic to me and I find her reasoning rather weak in comparison to all her other posts. I have talked about it ealier, I can add more if needed.

I didn’t like her reaction to ofrhz’s vote. She said she didn’t understand the vote 699 and she doesn’t think she has been acting scummy 730 but it didn’t change her read on ofrhz 705 nor did she ask why he voted her.

Maybe I didn't directly ask, but I think my reaction could be reasonably expected to lead to more discussion. I'm not sure why you think this is scummy.

She voted somebody else/made a case after somebody voted her. 260 , 727. Trying to move attention somewhere else.

Do you really believe this is why I voted?

She has changed her opinion on why she was pushing skitter. First she was suspicious because of the fast unvote 609, later she said that it was not the unvote but skitter misunderstanding the situation727.

I did not find the unvote suspicious

at the time

. Later developments caused me to think about it more.

She talked about skitter not playing optimally as scum 609 and made in depth analysis of Oxy’s post 507. Yet she only votes lurkers for pretty on the surface level scummy reasons.

Her vote on NSG gave me all kinds of bad vibes. I don’t know how ruru missed NSG’s read on Oxy and NSG convo with ofrhz about that vote. I also don’t like Ruru’s reasoning from later posts:

“Yes, I think it's a bit in the "wow, that sucks" category and I feel like a town player who believes that something is hurting her win% would be more motivated to understand why things are that way and how to improve the situation.”
“NSG first tried to get others to vote in 716. After that, she jumped on the Oxy wagon herself. Her timing seems opportunistic to me.”

Care to explain why you don't like my reasoning?

skitter is V/LA, and I don't feel like voting on her would be that productive right now anyway because she already gave a defense and it doesn't make sense to lynch anyone before hearing more from Drixx/NSG.

We were four days away from the deadline at that time. In 708 (two days before 747) Drixx promised he would most likely made more posts that night, he didn’t.
She was okay putting Drixx at L-1 earlier in the game when we are close to end of the day, it is totally fine for her to wait for Drixx. That’s stalling.

I was never interested in lynching anyone with 1 week left before the AFKs talked. I generally tried to avoid saying it out loud, for reasons that have been discussed to death. If the deadline is closer and the AFKs are down to Drixx+NSG I think it's probably a lot harder for one or both of them to stall the game as scum (because now they might actually get lynched for it).

I don’t like 761.
Ruru quotes ofrhz’s part of post that was address to everybody, but mentioned her, and uses it as an excuse to defend Oxy and give another explanation of her vote on NSG.

Umm, his post literally asked me to explain my vote.

She also mentions that we

still

have around three more days.

Yes, I did. Do you disagree with this correction? Do you think it is better or worse for town to know the actual deadline?

From her readlist - Drixx is apparently less suspicious now then he was before even though he didn’t post anything since 708 - I think she put him higher because of people’s reaction to her vote earlier.

I address this earlier in this post.

About my convo with her on the last pages.
I have actually misunderstood her with one part. I forgot that I have explained to her again my thoughts of that wagon so I thought that she addressed it on her own.
Still from what I have understood - Ruru was voting Drixx for both pressure and lynch and she believed that people would be there in time to unvote if Drixx made a towny post.
Ruru didn’t really tell me anything that makes me question my first analysis of that wagon.

Did it occur to you that you might be misunderstanding other things too? Like your case on me is all kinds of weird and I can't tell if it's coming from confused town or confused scum.

---

Can you explain your vote?

i have explained my scumread on oxy previously. if you have any questions or would like clarification then just ask.

I was thinking maybe you'd read more of the game and had some new ideas beyond Oxy makes LAMIST posts => Oxy is scum.

Oxy points out that the end of D1 is not so far away and proposes plan to pressure people who haven't posted much.
Oxy gets scum read for his plan, but no other ideas for pressuring inactive players is put forward.

hey, i know the feeling.

Why? Did you ever propose a concrete plan or try to lead town?

NSG first tried to get others to vote in 716. After that, she jumped on the Oxy wagon herself. Her timing seems opportunistic to me.

what about the timing is opportunistic to you? oxy has been my top scumread since i entered into this game ??would there have been a

less

opportunistic time to vote him?

I was wondering if scum!NSG first wanted to see if Oxy would get lynched without her help, and that's why she didn't vote until prompted.

[pinturicchio]

844 Pin
I have been asking so much becuase a lot of your conclusions appear unclear to me. E.g. you said that I have made my case on Oxy without all information because I didn't know anybody's alignemnt in the game at that time.
And that's true becuase I don't but if you were scumreading me I don't think that's a conclusion you would make.

He could have been acting the way he did because of being pr and have to replace because of lack of time, I guess. I mean I get why you said that but I just wish you could have leave the pr part out.

I was asking you questions because I didn't understand where your conclusion came from. Knowing why you think the way you do would make it easier for me to get a read. At the time I have also been talking with other players, so I wasn't really focused on you.

Why are you voting Skitter over Ruru? What do you think of my case on Ruru?

1. I said that about your case because you were frustrated at that time and even if I didn't agree with you, I thought it would be nice to say that your case was good, no matter your alignment is.
2. The PR part was the most important part about my read on him, why would I not talk about that? I'm saying I thought he was a PR, now I'm saying I don't know and I will not talk about it; his playstyle seemed like a PR, but now that he's been replaced I don't believe that, he was just busy. I'm not helping scum with PR hunting if that is what you're implying.
3. I have my own suspicions on ruru, but you scumreading her gives me a bad feeling; I still got you on my lynchpool. Skitter over ruru: I already gave my reads about skitter and ruru after catching up, and after that, skitter says "I'm not voting Oxy because of his softclaims"; if I'm town and think that Oxy is softclaiming, I shut the hell up about it, no matter how obvious the softclaims are.

[pinturicchio]

Mathdino replaces eth0s!

Pleeeeease don't claim tracker welcome Dino! You're here to conf!read NSG?

[Mathdino]

Wow this game sure looks
Awful

[Mathdino]

more absolutely not coming
i'm not encouraging this kind of game by reading it chronologically
i have 3 things to say

1. If you're scumreading me, stop. That goes out especially to NSG, who can confirm the majority of the following. I figured out how to read eth0s. I meta-dove him before I signed up for this game; his meta is essentially "If he sounds like a fucking awful player with half his posts, he's scum. If he sounds actually pretty intelligent in most of them, he's town". I can walk you through the process, etc etc.

I'm on record multiple places for only voluntarily replacing into town slots. I would hate rolling scum in a newbie game. And on top of my experience with ethos, I'm a good townhunter. My ability to townhunt player slots is way better than 77% (the chance of rolling town in a newbie).

So if you trust my ability to metadive someone and come out with a townread on them (which you absolutely should if you look at my game history), stop scumreadnig me.

2. I'm taking that and NSG's probably incoming disapproval as explicitly not consenting to me trying to break the setup. That's cool.

Basically, tracker claiming on D1 is optimal play for reasons, and the fact that I haven't already claimed tracker means I'm not the tracker. I'm not fakeclaiming tracker (drawing a counterclaim) because I don't want to shift the meta to make it okay for scum to do that.

If you're the tracker, and you wanna be a cool guy who increases our win odds by probably like 5%, feel free to claim, but idrc this game for other reasons.

3.

As said, I'm not fucking reading this. I only read half of ethos's ISO and even that was painful. Everyone's ISO is painful. So I would like everyone to submit the following:

- At most 3 of your own posts prior to my replace-in that I need to read to understand/be convinced by your perspective on the game.
- At most 3 of other people's posts that you want me to get a read on, or that you think stand out in some way (feel free to give me context or not).

In the meantime, I'm gonna get a read on NSG and not respond to these hilariously long walls.

[Mathdino]

you can also opt to summarise the game from your biased-ass points of view

also i'm gonna look at reasons people had scumreads on ethos

playing "dumb or scum" is always a good place to start

[Mathdino]

UNVOTE:
probably a bad vote
while it's nice that ethos is conftown and all i don't intend to read his posts for actual sheepworthy content

also full disclosure
i almost didn't sign up for this game solely because NSG was scumreading my slot
i was townreading it, and then figured "okay, NSG/skitter30 can't BOTH be scum with ethos", so i ISO'd the two of them looking to sheep their read on ethos just in case
(these are the two players i essentially consider sheepworthy)
anyway NSG had like no spicy reasons to be scumreading ethos and no one even called her on it going by her never actually fucking talking about it (thanks guys)
so i ignored that as lol-NSG and replaced in to show how much cooler i am at reading this slot

[Mathdino]

Hahahaha is the deadline literally in 2 days

Yall better get to work

[Mathdino]

Holy shit this vote count is godawful

I read like 2 of oxys posts and the guy's obvtown

I'm gonna see ethoss reasoning here but jesus christ I'd rather no lynch than lynch there

[skitter30]

@Pin: I'm trying to explain why I'm not voting for him right now, and why I haven't for the past week. I think it's pretty apparent that's what he's doing, and basically said as much when it happened. I don't know if that's in his scum range or not and that's why I was trying to continue to sort him because he gives me really bad vibes.

I think that both NSG's and Drixx's votes on the oxy wagon are suspect (with the caveat that they actually read either post) because I believe both of them are competant enough players to recongize that those posts were softs. I don't know if eth0s would have recognized that as a soft; I think he read the first post in question as a dare by oxy, and I don't think he got up to the second. That's part of the reason why they're both on the scummy side of null for me (if I knew that they read the relevant posts it would be a much stronger scumread).

I don't know how to explain why I'm voting the way I am and why I feel the way I do about Drixx/NSG and the oxy wagon without explaining that I viewed those posts as a soft.

I don't really know why you're scumreading me outside of this and the unvote, and I still don't get why you think the unvote was controversial. If you could give me a tldr I would appreciate it.

3. Thanks to the players who answered me about ruru's supposed townslip, I agree that it isn't a townslip and that helps me even more on my reads now, because ruru voting Drixx is something I see as scummy. ruru and skitter would be my both prime suspects if Drixx was indeed town; there should be one scum on that pair. ruru is pushing skitter right now and I don't know what to think about that, because she makes sense, but maybe it's a scum motivated push.

Namely, as far as I can tell, this is why you're scumreading me, and it seems to be based on you not liking the unovte (although you didn't mention it at the time, only after it had been rehashed to death), and it's based on the assumption of town!drixx.

Like as far as I can tell the argument is 'I'm scummy for voting drixx who may be town because you dislike the wagon'. Is that accurate? Can you explain why I unvote there if I'm scum pushing a scum-motivated wagon on town?

@ruru: Yes, I find LAMIST posts to be incredibly scummy; I think that scum write such posts to garner towncred, and it feels fake to me. You refer to post 436 but I didn't write that so I'm not sure which post you're referencing.

@math:

i was townreading it, and then figured "okay, NSG/skitter30 can't BOTH be scum with ethos", so i ISO'd the two of them looking to sheep their read on ethos just in case

I don't know what I"m doing in this sentence. (Although it's nice to know you think I'm sheepworthy lol)

From my POV highlights of the game are as follows:

Oxy is driving the game. Oxy seems LAMIST to me. Oxy/Scioness had some sort of 1v1 that I don't remember what it was about even tbh. In middle of the 1v1 ruru votes eth0s and it makes me feel like she's trying to divert away from the 1v1; if there's scum in {oxy/scioness} I think ruru may be a partner because of it. All the while eth0s, drixx, nsg-slot are lurking and/or afk and/or totally absent. Oxy posts 379 and I kinda hate it and like all of his posts on that page and immediately thereafter. I vote Drixx for a cryptic post he had written. Oxy/ruru view that as me willing to keep Drixx at L-1 to pressure him to post within 24 hours. I unvote cuz I don't believe in lynching someone who isn't here to respond to pressure. We rehash what all of us were thinking at the time at great length (I thought they wanted to lynch drixx if he hadn't posted in 24 hours; oxy/ruru were apparently voting him to pressure him to post and if he hadn't posted in 24 hours they would have ended the experiment). I very much dislike how the drixx wagon formed. Ofrzh bleeds town throughout all of this. We spent a lot of time rehashing the drixx wagon, and then turn our attention to the lurkers and I honestly don't know how this game is 35 pages long at this point.

[Mathdino]

FML

NSG is unfortunately not scum here i don't think

of course any instance of me townreading NSG takes into account the idea that NSG has improved her scumgame since last time, but i think there are a few things way outside her scumrange

that said NSG you're deep in tunnel mode and you've somehow (i'm not reading your trajectory sorry) convinced yourself into a view of the gamestate that scumreads the 2 most obvtown slots

NSG town, oxy town, ethos town, i'm sheeping NSG on her pintu read, so we're doing this
VOTE: Scioness
from skimming ethos's ISO (i was looking for stuff on oxy and it was all bad) i got the impression that scioness has largely been ignored as a slot
she has a large scumrange (aka doesn't get wagoned as scum) so that's concerning as fuck

Edit: oh kill me now more walls

[skitter30]

I don't think scioness is scum.

Why is NSG town? Why is oxy town?

(hey, look, I can write not-walls!)

[Mathdino]

I don't know what I"m doing in this sentence. (Although it's nice to know you think I'm sheepworthy lol)

From my POV highlights of the game are as follows:

Oxy is driving the game. Oxy seems LAMIST to me. Oxy/Scioness had some sort of 1v1 that I don't remember what it was about even tbh. In middle of the 1v1 ruru votes eth0s and it makes me feel like she's trying to divert away from the 1v1; if there's scum in {oxy/scioness} I think ruru may be a partner because of it. All the while eth0s, drixx, nsg-slot are lurking and/or afk and/or totally absent. Oxy posts 379 and I kinda hate it and like all of his posts on that page and immediately thereafter. I vote Drixx for a cryptic post he had written. Oxy/ruru view that as me willing to keep Drixx at L-1 to pressure him to post within 24 hours. I unvote cuz I don't believe in lynching someone who isn't here to respond to pressure. We rehash what all of us were thinking at the time at great length (I thought they wanted to lynch drixx if he hadn't posted in 24 hours; oxy/ruru were apparently voting him to pressure him to post and if he hadn't posted in 24 hours they would have ended the experiment). I very much dislike how the drixx wagon formed. Ofrzh bleeds town throughout all of this. We spent a lot of time rehashing the drixx wagon, and then turn our attention to the lurkers and I honestly don't know how this game is 35 pages long at this point.

My process for replacing in:

- "lol ethos what a guy, i misread him that one time"
- reading over his ISO, there are a couple posts of incredible nuance that seem way outside his scumrange. that said i misread him so let's check that
- confirmed, when he's scum he just sounds like an idiot and wildly scumreads everyone. there's no nuance. jester nightless indicated that his town self, while often wrong (very often wrong), comes up with a lot of complicated reads
- i trust NSG and skitter30 the most to read this guy out of the playerlist, will double check my read by their ISO
- wow NSG is scumreading him but is either not explaining or has shit reasons, got it
- skitter30 doesn't really look like she's scumreading him, good
- no wagon on me, if NSG is town she'll work with me, *replace in*

thank you for the biased summary

so uh
oxy is town
stop trying to activity tell NSG, it doesn't work (although it's cathartic to policy lynch lurkers i admit)
NSG has said shit way outside her scumrange, idk if you've ever played with her as scum but if you did you'd know that
link me posts that indicate drixx-scum to you and i'll tell you my read on him
why are you not scumreading scioness from your POV

[skitter30]

Yeah, I'm pretty much townreading eth0s; his catchup was probably not from scum. The read isn't quite as strong as I would like but I don't have a lot of strong townreads and I don't know if I can read you that well so I'm content just calling your slot town for today and revisiting it later.

I've never played with scum!NSG so idk. I feel like she's been active lurking kinda but maybe I'm expecting too much from people replacing in. I feel like she hasn't interacted with much *after* she replaced in either though.

I don't really have a read on drixx cuz he's been afk for large swaths of the game but my original explanation for why I voted him was in 395 (there's a quote of his relevant post). And he was kinda posting yesterday too. (I think you should read that page, or at least oxy's posts on that page, to explain partially where I'm getting the following from)

here's my oxy read cuz I disagree:

That isn't exactly my read on oxy. My read is more: a lot of LAMIST behavior; building a townbloc in a way that feels artificial to me; what appeared to me to be trying to push a lynch on an inactive player; possibly trying to pocket people.

He just feels really artificial to me.

I honestly dont' remember which posts prompted the scioness townread offhand but there were some posts from her that I really liked. If you give me a couple of minutes I'll dig them up if you like.

[skitter30]

Also for oxy I kinda feel like he's looking for a mislynch.

[Mathdino]

- what makes you say you can't read me

- NSG active lurking is not scum indicative unless she's on death row (in which case it's heavily scum indicative)

- while i respect you i'm not going to just sheep your read; your slot is null to me. link me the posts that you think i should be reading from them and i'll take a look. will take a look at oxy's posts there. LAMIST is not as good a scumtell as people think though; it's just a reason to not townread someone

- and yeah gimme the scioness posts. i spectated a really good scumgame of hers so

[skitter30]

I've only played the one game with you that I can't talk about atm and I don't think I have a good enough feel for how you usually play.

I think the posts on that page and in the immediate aftermath of the drixx wagon (ie the next page too) should give you a good feel for what I'm thinking about oxy. Give me a minute on the scioness posts, I need to find them.

[Mathdino]

I fucking cracked up at oxys posts that page so thanks for that one

Yeah the guy's town sorry

[skitter30]

For scioness, it was specifically 695 that I liked and that pushed her up to 'more likely than not town' because I thought the read on ruru was very nuanced and probably doesn't come from scum. Overall I understand her thought process doens't really feel faked to me; it feels multi-dimensional and nuanced.

I know the scumgame everyone is referring to but I haven't had a chance to read it yet.

[Drixx]

@ruru - Why do you feel that flipping me wouldn't be useful? I was at L-1 for awhile so obviously it nearly already happened. That statement without any reasoning bothers me. I could see a scum motive there.

[Mathdino]

okay then prove me wrong about this vote

VOTE: ofrhz

also has drixx claimed already

[Drixx]

Why would I claim?

[Scioness Sajj]

NSG town, oxy town, ethos town, i'm sheeping NSG on her pintu read, so we're doing this
VOTE: Scioness
from skimming ethos's ISO (i was looking for stuff on oxy and it was all bad) i got the impression that scioness has largely been ignored as a slot
she has a large scumrange (aka doesn't get wagoned as scum) so that's concerning as fuck

dude
I have been derptunneled for a week (becuase of that game), three players have read my first game before this one started, another three has read that game becuase of said tunnel and paranoia over me. I have been anything but ignored.

I have spent a lot of time explaning why it's bad lazy idea and is not fair to me. I'm tired talking about it and trying to defend myself.

I won't be here tomorrow, I believe ruru is scum. If you want to lynch me over that one game go ahead.

[Mathdino]

just making sure

if you had already claimed then lynching you becomes ideal

@scioness: you seem to assume i've actually read your ISO, when i'm really just PoE voting here trying to get a lynch that isn't shit

all of the wagons are shit

[Scioness Sajj]

@mathdino no, I'm aware you didn't read this game, that's why I've corrected you where you are wrong.

you've bought up the other game as an argument. I have had it and I'm not dealing with it anymore. that's it.