Open 710: MKUltra - Foreign Spies Win!

[GuyInFreezer]

I dare you to say I planned all this as scum as a giant wifom
Because that's really underestimating my play capability and saying that I do not understand that drawing nightkill is not worth that giant batman gambit.

[GuyInFreezer]

Remember when I said I enjoy playing multiball as town because it's easier to prove my towniness over singleball?

[GuyInFreezer]

This however is a possibility so I am interested in seeing GiF's thoughts on why he has actually town read me.

I can't explain the 80% of the reason and I hope you understand.

I can explain the rest of the 20% though. I mostly read people by how "genuine" their posts look. But that is also my weakness, because there are people who can fit that criteria as scum and I fall easily to those.
I know from the open game that you played that I modded that (that's a lot of that eh) you are capable of doing just that. So I'm going with my

inner consciousness

gut feeling on this.

[GuyInFreezer]

I mostly read people by how "genuine" their posts look.

This is also how I reached my townread on beef. Goddamn his posts were just wrong in just about everything D2, but they didn't look faked. So I taunted him to see his follow-up, but his posts also looked like he really thought he got me as scum.

[GuyInFreezer]

3. I went for spring over Alisae, bussing my partner with other scum alive for ????

While calling spring a fire scum and calling Alisae ice scum even.

[GuyInFreezer]

he's been townreading him fairly consistently.

Define consistently for me actually.
Because I called him bluescum for quite some time.

[GuyInFreezer]

4. I went for spring over Alisae, bussing my partner with other scum alive for ????

Because I like covering my bases and try to prevent as much counterargument as possible, here you go. (Which is very hilarious and ironic considering how lazybum I am)

Yes, I am fully aware that I jumped the gun and opened with voting Alisae without thinking about which mafia is more optimal to lynch.
I am also aware that it was you (skitter) who pointed that out.

And I'd rather not see you use that against me and gain some town points so let me shut that down right now.

1. Yes, I did indeed voted Alisae first, which seems to nullify this quoted point above. However, it actually does not nullify it! Which scum did I think Alisae was when I opened with a vote on Alisae? Yep, Ice! Do you know what that means? I made a suboptimal choice of jumping my gun and voting my ice scum read. My

ICE SCUM

read. What does this imply? You tell me.
2. No, you did not point me towards lynching spring. You merely pointed me towards lynching a fire scum. Your Day 3 was mostly going against Sky (which makes you brown-nosing sky hilarious right now) and Alisae. Like 0 mention of spring.

[GuyInFreezer]

Hmm I probably should stop saying "I wouldn't do this" stuff.

I'm just gonna ask you to read my games and my MD posts (y'all would totally pull the efforts to do that much since it's LyLo, right? Unlike me, who

is too lazy to look up past games

prefer to play the games with only the information that I have on the past games that I have actually played) because I think if I try to do this myself it might by incorrectly seen as attempt to pull the trust tell, which is illegal and bannable offense.
So here's this "yes, technically it is possible that I totally break how I approach mafia games in general for a huge reckless gambit, so y'all meta me and decide for yerselves"

[skitter30]

@Skitter my OG reason for scum reading you was because you pressured Beefster for voting GiF when you had done essentially the same thing. After that, the next problematic

thing was what felt like a refusal to see Icon as scummy because he was new

; I would have infinitely preferred you pointing out some reason for him to be town e.g. in post x Icon did y and that is town because z. It's much harder for me to sympathise with a feeling when I don't have that same feeling.

I don't really know why you don't get my beef vote, because there's a nuance there (ie beef followed GIF's wagon and later blamed him for that wagon and it seemed to me that he was trying to evade responsibility for his vote) that you seem to be missing that I can't seem to make you understand.

And for like the twelve-billionth time, I wasn't townreading ico past like mid day 2. I was not-blue-scumreading him, and I explained which specific posts prompted that read. Like the bolded is not at all an accurate representation of my ico read. It's not that I was townreading him because he was new, but that I was not blue-scum-reading him. In addition to that, he felt like a super new player to me. I asked both of you to like comment on that read and no one responded. Like I feel like you're telling me you're scumreading me cuz you didn't understand my ico read cuz I didn't give a concrete reason for reading him that way when I explained it numerous times and you declined to engage me when I tried to get you to tell me what you thought about it.

Also you've been townreading GIF for a while now - why were you townreading him before he voted for spring?

I kinda think GIF has sky pocketed and wanted sky in lylo cuz it doesn't really look like sky has ever really been open to considering the possibilty of scum!GIF; he's been townreading him fairly consistently.

I actually prefer ambiguity in LyLo over pocketing as scum.

Especially when I know town-Sky would roll his head around like crazy until the last moment for every possibilities.

What do you mean by this?

Which game are you referencing in 927?

930 - you read it backwards. Sky's been townreading you fairly consistently, not the other way around.

I think I need to do my due diligence and ISO both of you and do the meta-dive thing before I vote.

[Sky_Paladin]

I think I need to do my due diligence and ISO both of you and do the meta-dive thing before I vote.

Please do

I'll be away most of the first chunk of this phase and am checking by phone. I posted a fiarly extensive ISO of yourself/GiF/Icon in the prior phase. I'll revisit that read in light of your responses from the last day phase and evaluate.

My main thoguhts at this stage are;
by POE I cant see how it could be GiF (for all the reasons he highlighted earlier) unless super bus
So does that mean POE = Skitter? Or is that what scum!GiF wants me to think since I was leaning scum on Skitter for so long?

[GuyInFreezer]

What do you mean by this?

That means I'd know that bringing sky to lylo would be total pain in the ass as scum.

[GuyInFreezer]

Or is that what scum!GiF wants me to think since I was leaning scum on Skitter for so long?

Considering my stance yesterday was "I'll figure out from Ico/skitter later after I lynch spring," I doubt that.

[GuyInFreezer]

Which game are you referencing in 927

Super old open game that I modded as my alt

[Sky_Paladin]

I'm V/LA until 6 April. I have a few hours I can play then, then another 48 hour V/LA.

[Sky_Paladin]

I promise I will respond to both of your votes/questions before voting.

[skitter30]

(expired on 2018-04-03 18:00:52)

Can you not do this please? I need to put some time into figuring this out and I'm not going to be able to finish doing that in the next couple of hours.

[GuyInFreezer]

Yeah no point anymore if Sky is in V/LA.

[GuyInFreezer]

I feel like I said all I wanted to say today tbh.

[Sky_Paladin]

Why does me being here/not being here matter for your vote?

[GuyInFreezer]

Because blitzvote isn't as exciting.

[skitter30]

Yeah I'm still working on this; sorry I'm prioritizing another game for *reasons* and I really should declare semi v/la till like Monday tbh. (It's passover till then. Also I'm at a hotel till Sunday and the hotel wifi doesn't like this site and keeps on crashing on my laptop and won't let me reach ms on my phone at all. )

I'm not really ready for the day to end but I did make a start on the ISO thing and I actually think I'm tending to sky cuz his associatives with spring are kinda :/

Spoiler:

springlullaby (2) - Sesq,

GuyInFreezer

Can somebody please clarify why Spring is scum (and if possible, fire mafia?). They are at L-1.

While I'm waiting, I'll back the third horse.

VOTE: Iconeum

The Mikan/Hawk vote is interesting,

but not as interesting as Mikan pushing for Spring

. I would have expected her to go for GiF/Icon, especially after her wall on Icon. I am interested in seeing who cares about Icon, though.

Kinda weird that he keeps on bringing up votes/scumreads on spring when he doesn't townread her. Bolding my own.

springlullaby (3) - Sesq, GuyInFreezer, Alisae L-1

Alisae (1) - Iconeum
Iconeum (1) - Sky_Paladin
Sesq (1) - springlullaby

Not Voting: skitter30

Skiiiiiiitter who are you going to vote for.

I feel like you want to vote GiF because you've wanted to since forever, but you're not voting because...?

Bolding is sky's. Again, why emphasizing the spring wagon?

While I could see Skitter/Icon as Ice mafia team, neither of them are viable lynches at this point. I was hoping GiF would give me some insight into why Spring could be fire Mafia but he declined so maybe one of the others on that wagon (hint Alisae) could explain their vote for me. At this stage I'm not interested in hammering there.

Like he feels oddly concerned about this wagon on someone he's not townreading given the like three posts I've already quoted where he keeps on asking about the votes on spring.

813 - spends a lot of time analyzing the gamestate given *redscum* spring but neglects to consider bluescum spring. Also in light of the fact that scum don't have daytalk and the fact that spring literally hammered four posts later kinda feels like sky might be telling spring to just hammer alisae and end the phase already. Like in between sky saying the following and spring hammering:

Any of the players voting Alisae (myself included) could trivially hammer Spring and nobody would care. Spring at least should have counter-hammered to save herself IMO.

There's like three posts, two of which are GIF saying bluescum wouldn't hammer since it would be a scumclaim, and the third is a vc.

The hammer immediately after that is kinda weird, and doesn't make sense to follow bluescum-GIF saying a hammer is a blue-scumclaim, but does make sense to follow bluescum-sky kinda indicating he wants his partner to hammer.

Like throughout day3 he spends a lot of time developing other reads but seems kinda overly focused on the spring votes given that he doesn't really have a read on her.

I think I was townreading effort and AtE but like that isn't a good reason to townread someone in LYLO.

Also I'm rereading his posts and like I realized I never responded to the posts at the end of day2 and rereading them he misrepped me a bunch of times, or at best was misunderstanding them repeatedly despite multiple attempts by me to clarify. earlier Even now he still doesn't get my beef vote and I don't get what there isn't to get and he also misrepped my position on ico, again.

I don't really like *his* beef vote in 556 - it kinda feels like he hopped on the wagon to vote beef despite being too scummy to be scum. Like he's voting Beef for not making sense and not so much for being *scummy*. Like doing derp-things isn't necessarily a scumtell and I think sky knows that. Like is sheeping someone although you don't know their reasonining pro-town? Probably not. Is it scum-indicative? Probably not also.

855 - I dont' think that people voting together at lynch is a good reason to team-read people tbh. Also I kinda think he's overly focused on the implications of the nk and his analysis of the nk is still kinda bizarre to me. Like he seems to think I killed sesq to frame him or something and that's not something I'd do (at least, not using the thought process he's pushing), and I really don't think that the kill points anywhere. I do kinda feel like he's trying to tie me to it though and use the sesq night-kill to show that people are trying to frame him to try to clear himself a bit. Like he kinda has a pre-concieved notion as to what the nk means.

And a lot of his posts on day4 are pushing an ico/me narrative that doesn't make sense because a significant portion of that is based on me saying that I preferred to lynch him when that didn't happen. (Although tbf he retracted that once I put up a big enough stink about it cuz like that's a pretty big misrep tbh cuz it didn't happen). Specifically referring to 857. Also he repeatedly pushed me townreading ico as a reason to teamread us when again, that wasn't an accurate description of my read since like mid-day2. And I repeatedly clarified it and he kept pushing it (and still is even today). Like it kinda feels like he has a narrative that he wants to push (ie my townread on ico doesn't make sense) and he's ignoring me when I try to point out he's misunderstanding things (ie I'm haven't townread ico since mid-day2; my read on him is that I don't blue-scum-read him and he like never engaged with that read)

I was specifically townreading him for 885 - 887, but like as I go through his ISO he's misreading what I'm saying *a lot* and we didn't have this much trouble communicating last time we played together? Like I don't understand why he's repeatedly misreading *many* of my posts and using these misreads to scumread me or teamread me with ico and it takes like three rounds of back-and-forth for him to understand me, if ever.

Sky, do you have a recent scumgame you can link me?

Going to do the GIF ISO tomorrow.

[GuyInFreezer]

lmao 2 V/LAs in LyLo

[Sky_Paladin]

I'll clarify my earlier remarks and position.

I'm pretty sure it's scum!Skitter because for the strongest Cirno reason - POE.

I've been town-reading GiF since I think early day 2, and I've been feeling like there was scum between Icon/Skitter since mid-day 2.

Little has come up to challenge that position.

Main factors for town reading GiF:
Posts are for the most part on point, advancing game state, votes are all easily accountable/did not try to wriggle out of mislynch responsibility.
Presence on Spring wagon during day 3 despite ample opportunities to hammer Alisae.
First voter against Spring in LYLO.
Reads have been largely consistent or update over time

Main factors for scum reading GiF:
??? Not a whole lot that is relevant in the current game state - things like him pushing Alisae/Sky as a team evaporated naturally when Alisae flipped.
About the only thing that is worrying me is that during this phase GiF hasn't really weighed in and is content for Sky/Skitter to throw giant walls at each other.
I don't really see evidence of GiF trying to solve the game at this point. I'm worried he's just sitting by waiting for one of the other two to finally get mad enough to vote each other and then he'll just hammer.

Overall my reasons for town reading GiF are stronger because they are easily deducable from the game and the only reason for scum reading him at this stage is basically paranoia.

Contrast with Skitter -
Main factors for town reading Skitter:
A lot of posts
???

Main factors for scum reading Skitter:
What feels like mainly argumentative/reactive posting and I'm not really remembering any hard scum/town reads from Skitter.
A lot of posts but no cases/real pushes when it mattered.
Vote on Spring came after all players had suggested lynching Spring, and came fairly shortly after GiF's vote. So, a bus?

I'm struggling to add things under 'why I should town read Skitter'.

This is mainly a 'yes I am still alive, here is where I am' post and I expect to do a proper catch up and response in about 12 hours.

[Sky_Paladin]

My last scum game was this one that I replaced in to about day 3 iirc.

Before that I think my last scum game was somewhere in 2015, back before my big mafia break. This is, I think, only my fourth or fifth game since coming back.

[skitter30]

OK doing the GIF ISO now.

-> Still don't like the RF wagon

-> It's kinda idiotic for scum to soft doc to divert the nk off the real doc. Like the risk (getting nk'd) isn't really worth the reward imo (towncred from trying to divert the nk off the fairly obvious doc)

-> I think that scum!gif would probably hop on the beef wagon at some point instead of townreading him after their spat. LIke it would be easy to vote him for beef's bad lolcase on GIF, but he didn't.

-> I still think it's weird that he forgot we wanted to kill redmafia day3, but like, bluemafia is probably fairly likely to be cognizant of the fact that town wants to kill red. (ie I thought at the time it might be because he was red, but that isn't relevant anymore and forgetting that we wanted to finish off red after one already died isn't exactly a bluescum tell; if anything it might be a not-blue-scum tell).

->694 - yeah this is basically what's getting me cuz it doesn't make sense to try to eat the nk as scum, as epitomized with the softing doc thing. (@gif, did you sign up for this game *because* it's multiball?)

->786 - bluescum staying off the alisae wagon day3 because 'he doesn't think alisae is redscum' is just really weird. Like day3 bluescum!gif is voting his bluescum partner while staying off redscum alisae's *while scumreading them* because he doesn't think that alisae is *redscum*.

Overall I don't particularly townread GIF so much as think his behavior doesn't really match what I'd expect (blue)scum to be doing at various points in this game. And he particularly doesn't make much sense as a Spring partner, whereas sky seemed overly concerned by the Spring wagon. So I think I'm voting sky.

I said this in my last post, but just to say it again, the following sequence of posts kinda highlights why I think sky is more likely a spring partner than GIF:

Spoiler:

Any of the players voting Alisae (myself included) could trivially hammer Spring and nobody would care. Spring at least should have counter-hammered to save herself IMO.

@GiF - if Spring is red, why haven't blue hammered?

Blue absolutely will not hammer this dayphase.

By hammer, I mean like scumhammer.

VOTE COUNT

springlullaby (L-1)

(3) - Sesq, GuyInFreezer, Alisae

Alisae (L-1)

(3) - Iconeum, skitter30, Sky_Paladin

Sesq

(1) - springlullaby

Not Voting:

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Tick tock...

3 days, 12 hours, 37 minutes

Countdown has been paused while I replace Sesq.

I didn't realise all votes were accounted for.

VOTE: Alisae

Better than me because I'm 100% town.

(btw I'm fully cognizant that I get mislynched most of the time here. I want to solve the game before that happens so that I can say 'I told you so' after)

p-edit: I did not read that post