Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

[Mathdino]

I mean there's at least one additional PR to the inno child anyway.

Only mechanical advice I got is BG optimal play is probably to protect IC. Not because the IC or this specific IC is necessarily the most valuable protection, but because we can take an IC death to then imply there's no Bodyguard (since scum don't have a roleblocker). Plus the only real benefit of BG dying is... self-confirming that there is in fact a BG.

I feel like you're getting enirely too involved in the setup...

Is it not good to be involved in the set up? Don't think we want to discourage potential town from reading through and making solve attempts...

Also i forgot jmo was the IC
But with that in mind, this is probably our second scum
Would wagon as well
V WKy post

[the worst]

Jjd choose between scumlynching brass and policy lynching Maria

Gimme some time man. My attempt to hack into the mods inbox to spy on the role pms failed miserably so now I need to actually try to form reads.

Same here, can't believe water123 wasn't the pw.

[MariaR]

Feel free to explain how it's actually suboptimal fmpov to policy lynch you given your meta

I assume you're grudging me or an issue because I have 0 idea where you get this idea that my reads are random or my meta shows that.
The fact you're wanting to policy lynch someone for

disagreeing with you

just blows my mind

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Pedit: Can you stop Math

No I can't. He's unstoppable.

[MariaR]

Pedit: Can you stop Math

No I can't. He's unstoppable.

can you answer mah question danke.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I'm not holding up anything you're holding a petty ass grudge for no reason what so ever. I'm just gonna ignore your comments since you have the ego of someone who thinks they're a genius and yet the pettiness of a 13 year old girl. Go on and try it

Anyway Judge how confident are you in your wisdom tr or is it just a guess at this point

It's a guess. We can ask him though. Wisdom doesn't lie as town.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

can you answer mah question danke.

I answer when I read the post. Kharashaw

[Mathdino]

Feel free to explain how it's actually suboptimal fmpov to policy lynch you given your meta

I assume you're grudging me or an issue because I have 0 idea where you get this idea that my reads are random or my meta shows that.
The fact you're wanting to policy lynch someone for

disagreeing with you

just blows my mind

see i feel like you just pathologically misrep people ingame

- if you came to the conclusion that i was grudging you (and if you actually cared), you could've approached me out-of-game about it the last time i tried to policy lynch you, instead of spouting AtE to use to your advantage ingame

- i read a lot of games onsite. you have a record of sub-random reads as town. which is fine (a lot of players i really enjoy do), but you also push them (and town) over a cliff while arguing everyone else is idiotic, which distracts towns into having to argue with you forever when you respond THIS vitriolically

- your scum meta basically hides behind your anti-town town meta so people can't lynch you for being anti-town. you actively try to clear yourself on dumbtells
like you literally signed up for one of my games, rolled scum, and proceeded to pretend to not have read the rules or the game

- i would've been willing to policy lynch you regardless. the fact that you opened with possibly the most backwards read i can think of right now (which i'm starting to see is going to be an issue) just exacerbates the policylust.
no, i would obviously never policy lynch someone just for disagreeing with me. people disagree with me all the time.

- you didn't actually answer my question or acknowledge my concern, you just responded with "nah fuck you i'm ignoring you and your pettiness". which is a common theme to your gameplay.

- also our last real game together literally consisted of you, an effective daycop, holding up D1 to an unreadable vitriolic standstill, then trying to cop someone that radiantcowbells and i were 90% sure was scum (who we both have a 100% track record of reading), while we were literally trying to lynch them, while THE ENTIRE GAME was telling you to just check someone else
so my impression of you is just not a team player, and you seem to be pretending not to remember that

note that i don't actually think any of this is alignment indicative
i don't have much confidence in my ability to read maria (will defer to anyone here who does)
it's just a good lynch to make

[MariaR]

If you wanna talk post game I'll consider it but I see no need to argue in this thread something that is outright false. Along with facts that prove it's false now if you have a question for me about this game I'll be happy to hear it instead of you trying to derail the thread with "policy lynch" just because I disagree with one of your reads.

[MariaR]

Why don't you explain to me why Judge is town to you because all you've really done is say he's lock town but have not given reason why he's lock town. That doesn't help the argument at hand what so ever

[Mathdino]

no but that's the thing

i'm not the one getting upset here; i play as optimally as i know how with the facts on the table

- you haven't disproven anything i just said

- policy lynches are entirely game relevant, you're a lynch candidate for at least 2 people

- i just said in the post above that i'm not trying to lynch you because you disagree with me

you're playing up the "math has a big ego woe is me" thing to get AtE cred

do you have reasons for the JJD scumread

Edit: Sure. JJD has a meta (I checked it when they entered the thread) with completed games of either alignment. This "people are town because of confirmations" logic is, while fakable by scum, not something that I think JJD would actually choose to do as scum. It's outright an anti-scum thing to do; if JJD has actually read my games like he's claimed, he'd know that this kind of logic is exactly what I'd buy into.
So unless he's literally defending his scumbuddy for flaking out of the game entirely (in which case, balls), it's highly likely JJD is town.

[MariaR]

-I could give you a long list on why that post of yours is flatout incorrect is that gonna help the game here? No most likely not if you want to sit down and have a chat like a reasonable adult after this then by all means I'm for it but me giving you reasons why what you said are blatantly false isn't gonna do shit.
-Policy lynching is moronic the goal of the game is simple but this is just a difference of opinion
-You are though because that's what broke the camels back you didn't say "why do you think Judge is scum" or ask anything like that you just said "wanna policy lynch Maria" without engaging me what so ever. You just now asked for it.
-I'm not trying to ate anyone at all everyone should know ate from me is NAI the point that you have a giant ego etc is still true and while annoying to deal with I can deal with it.
Pedit: Alright I understand that. Townreading someone for something they're unlikely to do is fine but I don't really enjoy reads that are mostly meta based trying to conf town someone based on info we have no idea about is dangerous and I rather just try to read the slot itself if he wants to go about the game like that it's fine.
I wanted to get the topics flowing but this isn't what I had in mind and my head mostly just hurts now

[Mathdino]

lemme be more clear then

if JJD had 0 meta whatsoever, i'd be townreading them

given that they do have meta, i checked their scum meta to see if it's just something they easily fake as scum (because hell, good enough scum players should never be locktowned without intimate knowledge of meta)

it doesn't appear to be something they'd do as scum

therefore my original townread was solid

[MariaR]

Alright so you tr him for trying to clear a slot and the meta backed it up to make the logic more reasonable.
I wasn't really scumreading Judge in the first place (although I did find him dodging a question with a joke an eye brow raise) I mostly wanted to see if we could get out of this talk on set up spec mostly because it's factors we have 0 control over and should be addressed on at a later date when it becomes relevant (if at all)
UNVOTE:

[MariaR]

I don't mind calling Judge a townlean because it's early but it mostly depends on what I think of the other slot in question so I can just wait for now and give the thread some air cause they don't really need to read half of this and I feel somewhat bad as it is.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I'm glad you two came to an understanding. Now can somebody tell me what is it exactly that makes brass scum/scummy?

[Nauci]

VOTE: Nauci

Serious vote.

Upon what is the serious vote based?

Nervousness in his post. "Hello everyone, never done this before."

VOTE: nauci

Oh god I'm already so many pages beyond and I barely skimmed page 1

But isn't it bad for the IC to be answering questions directed at unsorted slots

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

VOTE: Nauci

Serious vote.

Upon what is the serious vote based?

Nervousness in his post. "Hello everyone, never done this before."

VOTE: nauci

Oh god I'm already so many pages beyond and I barely skimmed page 1

But isn't it bad for the IC to be answering questions directed at unsorted slots

VOTE: Nauci

[Nauci]

Sorry I'm going to be V/LA for a couple of days. Doc just confirmed I have the flu. I'll make attempts to catch up when the meds kick in though.

[Nauci]

I'll add in the tinfoil - Nauci not addressing my naked serious vote with even a brief interrogative strikes me as someone intentionally trying to play cool over trying to assess people's reasoning - which seems more likely to come from scum also. It's even a thinner tell than the core one, but adds to a general sense of value in the wagon to my eyes.

1: Oops I didn't catch the "serious vote" part and scrolled past it thinking it was rvs reaction because page 1-2
2: I actually generally avoid people scum reading me for anything unless it's a disagreement on facts or otherwise necessary clarification, like if something I said was misinterpreted or misrepresented. I just take it as a prod that I should town harder. I also am generally not super active early day 1 because I'm not the type to shove into games with strong opinions based on a handful of pages, but my posting gets progressively more active as time goes on. Skim almost any of my games (except for that 200+ page abomination of a game). I hate defending myself and I hate that I'm writing about my own playstyle/meta here.

VOTE: Nauci

Serious vote.

Upon what is the serious vote based?

Nervousness in his post. "Hello everyone, never done this before."

VOTE: nauci

I guess that's a better case than the RVS, though, I did direct the question at Thor, so maybe he has further reasoning.

I'll look for Thor's response as well.

Functionally they stated it, I would add that the particular "aw shucks, seems strange" comment that triggered me specifically was the note about the Innocent Child.
It's like...yeah, and? Have you ever played with a Cop? What's even the point of the mention?
Just felt highly stilted and felt to me like a scum going 'aw, man, confirmed town to start the game with' rather than a more classical town response of 'yay, IC, pretty powerful town role'.

Why aren't you sheeping me yet?

I mean I know what IC does but I don't have enough experience to know the more complex implications of having the role around (setup analysis stuff like what was said about BG dynamics, interactions with other roles, WIFOM over if scum would try to shoot them, etc.). I'm excited to learn those things, just like for any other thing I've not played with before, like half of the stuff potentially in this setup. I'll have thoughts on what it means for the setup when I'm not so feverish, I'm sure.

btw if anyone was wondering

really the primary version of this setup that isn't townsided is the one where the mafia literally either pick nothing or pick daytalk (assuming they can actually get something out of it)

when i ran this setup it was lost because people were like "oh yeah that makes sense for there to be 4 PRs seems legit"

even with the benefit of WIFOM (MAYBE SCUM MIXED THINGS UP), this setup becomes breakable with too many power roles

so expect goons and not many PRs

I joined this game because I skimmed one like this when trying to understand Sky_Paladin playstyle. It seems super fun but my gut reaction was that I don't understand why scum would ever want to pick up much of any bonus except day chat. Like, why would they pick up BP when that increases the chances of a vig that otherwise wouldn't exist? But it's too complex to sort the other factors like vig killing town being advantageous to scum. I'm glad to see my hunch somewhat validated though.

I mean there's at least one additional PR to the inno child anyway.

Only mechanical advice I got is BG optimal play is probably to protect IC. Not because the IC or this specific IC is necessarily the most valuable protection, but because we can take an IC death to then imply there's no Bodyguard (since scum don't have a roleblocker). Plus the only real benefit of BG dying is... self-confirming that there is in fact a BG.

I feel like you're getting enirely too involved in the setup...

Is it not good to be involved in the set up? Don't think we want to discourage potential town from reading through and making solve attempts...

Also i forgot jmo was the IC
But with that in mind, this is probably our second scum
Would wagon as well
V WKy post

What does WK mean? White knight?

Feel free to explain how it's actually suboptimal fmpov to policy lynch you given your meta

I assume you're grudging me or an issue because I have 0 idea where you get this idea that my reads are random or my meta shows that.
The fact you're wanting to policy lynch someone for

disagreeing with you

just blows my mind

Damn you hella aggro

-I could give you a long list on why that post of yours is flatout incorrect is that gonna help the game here? No most likely not if you want to sit down and have a chat like a reasonable adult after this then by all means I'm for it but me giving you reasons why what you said are blatantly false isn't gonna do shit.
-Policy lynching is moronic the goal of the game is simple but this is just a difference of opinion
-You are though because that's what broke the camels back you didn't say "why do you think Judge is scum" or ask anything like that you just said "wanna policy lynch Maria" without engaging me what so ever. You just now asked for it.
-I'm not trying to ate anyone at all everyone should know ate from me is NAI the point that you have a giant ego etc is still true and while annoying to deal with I can deal with it.
Pedit: Alright I understand that. Townreading someone for something they're unlikely to do is fine but I don't really enjoy reads that are mostly meta based trying to conf town someone based on info we have no idea about is dangerous and I rather just try to read the slot itself if he wants to go about the game like that it's fine.
I wanted to get the topics flowing but this isn't what I had in mind and my head mostly just hurts now

Dang yo are you always so back handed and condescending

This is more aggressively passive than passive aggressive

Like it's going to be hard to read this tone and agree with you even if/when you're not wrong

I'm glad you two came to an understanding. Now can somebody tell me what is it exactly that makes brass scum/scummy?

Yeah I didn't catch that either

The games I've skimmed with MD he's been a very influential and pretty smart poster so I hope you're not scum

I played a newbie game with Brass, and he was probably the towniest player I've ever seen in a game as town. No idea what his scum meta would be though.

Besides these hot takes I don't have strong opinions right now on anything. I don't know if I agree or disagree with the analysis on late confirmation or the subsequent analysis of JJD.

I know, I have a habit of saying I won't be available to post and then posting a bunch anyway. I suck at staying away and once bought wifi on a 3.5 hr flight just to mafia shitpost.

[the worst]

How experienced are you Nauci?

Btw did you read S_P's stack the deck game I was in?

[Mathdino]

Told you guys the setup spec would pan out.

If Nauci was one of the OG 2 scum, we're dealing with 2 goons and possibly daytalk.

That said, I don't think Nauci is scum here. If Nauci IS scum, she seems to be playing the "play exactly as pro-town as you would if you were really town" philosophy, in which case she's literally good to have around even if scum.

It definitely seems like Nauci read Open 711. Her participation in the setup spec doesn't read like it's the second time she's typed it (the first time being the scum PT).

WKing means white knight, yeah. Aggressive unnecessary defence -- the IC doesn't need other people to say "don't tell the IC how to play" because the IC is never getting lynched anyway. It's the kind of thing designed to appeal to the IC's reads.

Analysis of brass's meta is correct, I'm guessing she read fferyllt's Newbie 1856 (with Thor) and potentially my later analysis of brass's play.

Case on brass is just the badvote. Scumread is about equal to Duck.

[Mathdino]

Town: JJD, Nauci

Probtown: Thor, Wisdom (pending my sleeping on this analysis)

Null: TW, Beefster, Espeonage

Lynchable: Maria

Probscum: brass, UglyDuck

Only 11 players to sort, I'm liking this.

[Nauci]

I didn't read other brass games, but I was SE in one with him.

I have 12+ games under my belt (most on a different, private, non-mafia forum, where everything is different because our reads are based on already knowing all of the participants for years) so I'd say I'm semi-experienced, but nowhere near most of the regulars on this site. I've almost exclusively played in normal/newbie setups with maybe 3 exceptions, all of which I feel relatively lost in because there's not so much constrained setup logic to fall back on. I liked this setup because it's a bit of a mix between chaotic open games and normal games that lets me get out of my comfort zone a bit and probably learn a lot.

I only quickly skimmed the S_P Stack the Deck game, so I wouldn't say I learned much about it besides a basic understanding of the setup. I'll try to reread it during day 1 here, if y'all recommend it.

I'm generally big on research, and small on analysis/strong opinions without falling on a lot of data points. I get hunches but post meekly about them. I am usually pretty precise with my language though: if I point out a lot of issues or agreement with someone's posting but say that I do not read alignment from it, please take me at my word (which, based on experience, isn't going to happen...).

[Nauci]

I don't see why we would ever want to not criticize conftown's posting. TIAM was a confirmed mason in that abortion of a game and scum MVPed. I didn't think anyone could be that anti-town, but I should set lower expectations for humanity.

I think IC answering questions directed at other people is very bad practice, correct me if I'm wrong.