Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

[Espeonage]

Hmmm. If I can't be first why not be the last? Just flip the list and I'd be first still.

so expect goons and not many PRs

Not many or not at all? Please be precise. I hear you have a good track of breaking open setups.

Also

VOTE: Thor

Only player who hasn't confirmed their role via PM (check post #6 before you ask how I know). Too bad we can't win together unless you are also town here.

Ooooo. what a pickup of a classic scum strat. Very thor's gen. Oooooooooooooo

[Espeonage]

If you're voting a slot you think is town - yeah, it's inherently and objectively bad unless you're scum.

We have many disagreements on a theory level

I could wagon brass if anyone's down for that

Feel free to describe the theory of voting town in RVS as particularly pro-town.
I'll wait.
Literally the best you can manage is a gawd awful gambit claim. (which you're clearly doing spit with, and you can gambit voting a scum read too)
Then I'll roll my eyes.
Then we can move on.

@theworst - why do you think Nauci is less likely scum and Brass is more likely?

Vote: Thor

Do not fucking do this shit again. Burden of proof is on you seeing as you are arguing the absolute here. I have voted town to get them to engage with me while they thought I was scumreading them.

Or

Early reads are unreliable because there is less evidence, so therefore pressuring to inform and confirm your read is definitely valid play to see how your town read reacts to vote pressure.

That is two situations I have immediately thought of that are execptions to your rule of voting town reads is scummy.

You are not going to derail another fucking game.

Thor is scum. This is thor's scum game. Thor is setting up fake arguments to get himself involved in a discussion that people will ultimately not want to take a side on. He needs to go EARLY or he will just systematically kill everyone that will oppose him.

Lynch the fuck out of Thor

[Espeonage]

I mean there's at least one additional PR to the inno child anyway.

Only mechanical advice I got is BG optimal play is probably to protect IC. Not because the IC or this specific IC is necessarily the most valuable protection, but because we can take an IC death to then imply there's no Bodyguard (since scum don't have a roleblocker). Plus the only real benefit of BG dying is... self-confirming that there is in fact a BG.

I feel like you're getting enirely too involved in the setup...

Counterpoint. Math has taken it upon himself to completely revamp the way opens are done and documented so he's definitely invested in the setup.

[Espeonage]

thank jesus fuck I didn't get inno child. Conversation at hand seems meaningless at the moment so let's change it to something I consider meaningful
VOTE: Judge Joseph
This is scum.

You definitely need to explain a scum read on one of my two townreads.

[Espeonage]

VOTE: brass

Rvs or legit btw.

Have you met wis?

[Espeonage]

I mean there's at least one additional PR to the inno child anyway.

Only mechanical advice I got is BG optimal play is probably to protect IC. Not because the IC or this specific IC is necessarily the most valuable protection, but because we can take an IC death to then imply there's no Bodyguard (since scum don't have a roleblocker). Plus the only real benefit of BG dying is... self-confirming that there is in fact a BG.

I feel like you're getting enirely too involved in the setup...

Is it not good to be involved in the set up? Don't think we want to discourage potential town from reading through and making solve attempts...

Also i forgot jmo was the IC
But with that in mind, this is probably our second scum
Would wagon as well
V WKy post

Dude. Arguing with the IC and telling him to stop being shit is hella pro town. Don't be fucking dumb. If the IC is shit and we follow the IC we lose. So we don't follow the IC.

[Espeonage]

At least the IC is a low poster that's good.

You can stay if you stop arguing with a brick wall.

Hopefully the brick wall will stop being dumb as well.

Just so you all know I didn't read the argument after like the second post when I realised it was person so none of that is equated into my reads of either.

[Espeonage]

As an IC, what do you propose I do?

Used my IC status in this setup to justify literally not posting (I'd get lynched otherwise), shitposted a bit, poked a few players, then nailed the entire scumteam in EoD post.

IC is in a very unique position.

You can be active, but

don't show your hand as IC until you're ready to murder people

.

We need to have a serious discussion about how being aggressive as town is better than being durdly. Your day play theory needs an overhaul I stg.

[Espeonage]

As an IC, what do you propose I do?

Used my IC status in this setup to justify literally not posting (I'd get lynched otherwise), shitposted a bit, poked a few players, then nailed the entire scumteam in EoD post.

IC is in a very unique position.

You can be active, but

don't show your hand as IC until you're ready to murder people

.

Ah, right. I'll work on that.

You need to be either shutting the fuck up and throwing votes around without context until you get an idea on who is working with you, and who is working for you. (the former being town and the latter being scum)

Or you need to be super agresssively interrogating the shit out of everyone that is online at any given moment. You are the shitty version of IC so sadly you don't get to do all the cool IC things like scumslipping and pretending to gamethrow so scum get fucked up in the fallout.

[Espeonage]

as an ic you have the unique advantage of being able to pressure people without them being able to discredit your motivations

Wisdom. I really want to be masons with you at some point.

[Espeonage]

people are still wagoning a V/LA obvtown nauci for some dumb shit

instead of scumlynching brass/uglyduck (i'd actually more prefer uglyduck right now) or policy lynching maria

Ugly Duck has not done anything alignment indicative outside of calling the IC to account. Which I've also done, and funnily enough, you've done. So sure they could be scum but they've done jack shit that can tell us that.

[UglyDuck]

people are still wagoning a V/LA obvtown nauci for some dumb shit

instead of scumlynching brass/uglyduck (i'd actually more prefer uglyduck right now) or policy lynching maria

Ugly Duck has not done anything alignment indicative outside of calling the IC to account. Which I've also done, and funnily enough, you've done. So sure they could be scum but they've done jack shit that can tell us that.

So
1) anyone trying to lynch anyone for not being present at this point is suspicious. Easy out for skum to create a wagon
2) Here is the comment everyone will ignore - I have had a hell of a week at work. I am here. Not caught up. Literally sitting at the desk doing it now. Sorry for absence.
3) The VLA won't get lynched, to seemed worried about it is skummy on its own.

Hi everyone. Nice to be playing with you.

[UglyDuck]

How often does scum just pick nothing or pick only daytalk? I recall someone in the last game was talking about taking the two goon buffs to nullify GC which was interesting. Leaning on better setup specers than me as to whether this would actually work/whether people are likely to come up with it.

Last Stack the Deck Creature/Jay slot would have been a great d1 lynch until that damn claim. IC feels like an exceptionally good roll in this setup.

Doing this either:

- Creates three useful TPRs anyway
or
- Creates four TPRs that aren't Goon Cop

I'm generally of the opinion that the claimspace is more valuable than anything else.

At the very least, given the caliber of the majority of players here, I'd definitely expect a lighter scumteam. Especially after it's pretty much MD consensus that less is more.

Can you clarify - I am new to this forum. Is this to say that you believe the player base of this game to be generally on the more experienced end of the spectrum?

[Thor665]

different side of the same coin as a gut read, yeah.
it's not far off at all but I'm getting a kinda guarded/reserved feeling from him which is what's making me uncomfortable.

I asked for an example and got this.
This is not an example - can you try again?

I'm asking you because I want to see how your mind is ticking.

If you're already aware that I've presented and explained my case - what further info are you expecting to get by asking me to explain it a second time?
Be specific.

Re: Nauci: I considered that she was pocketing me, definitely (I'm not a total idiot lol). Just beyond that, I'm also developing a profile on what I think Nauci's scumrange is, and I think she's gone out of it. Buddying can come from town, and I wouldn't have gotten in the fight with Maria if I thought I would lose socially/rhetorically.
[snip]
And the alternative was Nauci at the time which was a townread even before the "blatant pocketing" lol.

You're laughing a lot about it without actually addressing the question really.
Why do you think Nauci's scumrage precludes buddying?
If this is her town game I would be *shocked* to discover her scum game precludes buddying because it would make her super easy to sort.
Please back this up so we can all sort her in 2.5 seconds and be done with it [/sarcasm based on lack of belief this can happen because I think I'm being handed a load].

I didn't comment to attack her for attacking, so much as the abrasive tone used to do it. It's difficult to read the constant backhanded insults without forming a negative bias, but I'll try to of it's her meta.

Why was your opinion that MariaR was abrasive and Math clearly was not?
Because I did *not* read it that way.

Nope. I said the judge wagon was a reaction if I moved my vote right away I feel like said player could easily tell I was doing the same thing so I'm holding my vote and taking a backseat for now until I feel the need for my presence

I can understand the concept of staying back allowing you to scumhunt.
I am sure you can understand the concept of staying back as making you ipossible to scumhunt and being super pro-scum if you're scum.
So why are you doing it?

I didn't like your vote in the first place.

Why don't you like my vote?
You've played with me enough to know that it's totally alignment neutral for me - so what's to dislike about it exactly?

Burden of proof is on you seeing as you are arguing the absolute here. I have voted town to get them to engage with me while they thought I was scumreading them.

Or

Early reads are unreliable because there is less evidence, so therefore pressuring to inform and confirm your read is definitely valid play to see how your town read reacts to vote pressure.

That is two situations I have immediately thought of that are execptions to your rule of voting town reads is scummy.

Wow.
Misrep much?
My actual statement was "it's bad play unless you're scum"
To your two examples;

1. It is silly to suggest that you need to vote town to get them to engage with you - I would immediately question "engage how?" and "why do they only react to votes as opposed to, y'know, dialogue?" Also, blatantly that wasn't the situation here regardless - so...?

2. If you're doing this you are still scumhunting the slot, so you're not town reading them enough to have the read matter, so my initial statement holds.

I'll listen to more if you have them. These seem weak and silly both.

How am I derailing the game exactly? That is not a supportable claim.

[Wisdom]

VOTE: thor

[Beefster]

Reads so far:

Nauci - This sort of self-consciousness is not the scummy kind. probtown.
Mathdino - usual levels of setup speculation. I'm going to stay far away from MD v Maria. Null for now.
Maria - waters muddied by MD v Maria.

Looking into brassherald.

[Beefster]

brassherald is town for now. Nothing incriminating on him.

[Mathdino]

Thor is scum. This is thor's scum game. Thor is setting up fake arguments to get himself involved in a discussion that people will ultimately not want to take a side on. He needs to go EARLY or he will just systematically kill everyone that will oppose him.

Lynch the fuck out of Thor

See I definitely recognised Thor as playing what I know of his scumgame, so I could super get down with this, but I also know nothing of Thor's towngame (and just assumed these kinds of arguments are his general playstyle). I usually just read Thor off of how stupid his reads are.

What Thor town meta are you using?

Also i forgot jmo was the IC
But with that in mind, this is probably our second scum
Would wagon as well
V WKy post

Dude. Arguing with the IC and telling him to stop being shit is hella pro town. Don't be fucking dumb. If the IC is shit and we follow the IC we lose. So we don't follow the IC.

Has nothing to do with that. It's the awkward tepidness of it. Like he's simultaneously WKing me (I don't need to be WK'd) while deferring to the IC. It's very different from calling the IC shit (what you're doing).

Espeonage is hard-town so far btw.

[Beefster]

I just realized there is an actual player named "UglyDuck". I assumed everyone was referring to tw due to his avatar. xD

Esp's posts are good. This is nothing like the way I saw him play in Jungle Republic when he was mafia. (or was he WW?)

[Wisdom]

Mathdino - usual levels of setup speculation. I'm going to stay far away from MD v Maria. Null for now.
Maria - waters muddied by MD v Maria.

lots of words to say nothing

[Beefster]

Good point. I should vote myself for that.

[Mathdino]

Used my IC status in this setup to justify literally not posting (I'd get lynched otherwise), shitposted a bit, poked a few players, then nailed the entire scumteam in EoD post.

IC is in a very unique position.

You can be active, but

don't show your hand as IC until you're ready to murder people

.

We need to have a serious discussion about how being aggressive as town is better than being durdly. Your day play theory needs an overhaul I stg.[/quote]
I more meant "not wallposting". You can't seriously think my dayplay theory is "don't be aggressive". I pushed wagons all over the place as IC in that game.

The point in not showing your hand just means that the IC shouldn't explain in full what they're thinking internally and why, until they're ready to force the entire town to sheep them.

You need to be either shutting the fuck up and throwing votes around without context until you get an idea on who is working with you, and who is working for you. (the former being town and the latter being scum)

Like yeah this is my IC playstyle.
My point is I think UglyDuck is doing the latter.

Ugly Duck has not done anything alignment indicative outside of calling the IC to account. Which I've also done, and funnily enough, you've done. So sure they could be scum but they've done jack shit that can tell us that.

The action isn't AI, the phrasing is. If they were like "So are you gonna stop being fucking useless?" it'd be different. It reads like they're afraid of the IC coming after them.

[Beefster]

UNVOTE:
Since my vote was on Esp

Looking into duck now.

[Mathdino]

EBWOP

Used my IC status in this setup to justify literally not posting (I'd get lynched otherwise), shitposted a bit, poked a few players, then nailed the entire scumteam in EoD post.

IC is in a very unique position.

You can be active, but

don't show your hand as IC until you're ready to murder people

.

We need to have a serious discussion about how being aggressive as town is better than being durdly. Your day play theory needs an overhaul I stg.

I more meant "not wallposting". You can't seriously think my dayplay theory is "don't be aggressive". I pushed wagons all over the place as IC in that game.

The point in not showing your hand just means that the IC shouldn't explain in full what they're thinking internally and why, until they're ready to force the entire town to sheep them.

[Beefster]

Yeah. There's nothing to go of for UglyDuck. I'm going to give it more time.