Open 710: MKUltra - Foreign Spies Win!

[GuyInFreezer]

Don't you da ze me
How the heck are you back so early

[skitter30]

So I'm around for the next hour and a half or so and I'll keep an eye on this, and then I'm gone till Saturday night at the earliest, possibly Sunday.

[Sky_Paladin]

I went to bed at 2 am

Then I woke up at 8:15 am

There will be a price to pay. Fortunately tonight is pay off sleep debt night so I just need to tnak through til 5 pm without getting fired or hit by a truck.

[Sky_Paladin]

947

Overall my reasons for town reading GiF are stronger because they are easily deducable from the game and the only reason for scum reading him at this stage is basically paranoia.

Contrast with Skitter -
Main factors for town reading Skitter:
A lot of posts
???

Main factors for scum reading Skitter:
What feels like mainly argumentative/reactive posting and I'm not really remembering any hard scum/town reads from Skitter.
A lot of posts but no cases/real pushes when it mattered.
Vote on Spring came after all players had suggested lynching Spring, and came fairly shortly after GiF's vote. So, a bus?

I'm struggling to add things under 'why I should town read Skitter'.

Why did Skitter town read GiF suddenly in LYLO? Looking at 949 reasons are:

1 - It's kinda idiotic for scum to soft doc to divert the nk off the real doc. Like the risk (getting nk'd) isn't really worth the reward imo (towncred from trying to divert the nk off the fairly obvious doc)
2 - I think that scum!gif would probably hop on the beef wagon at some point instead of townreading him after their spat. LIke it would be easy to vote him for beef's bad lolcase on GIF, but he didn't.
3 - I still think it's weird that he forgot we wanted to kill redmafia day3, but like, bluemafia is probably fairly likely to be cognizant of the fact that town wants to kill red. (ie I thought at the time it might be because he was red, but that isn't relevant anymore and forgetting that we wanted to finish off red after one already died isn't exactly a bluescum tell; if anything it might be a not-blue-scum tell).
4 - bluescum staying off the alisae wagon day3 because 'he doesn't think alisae is redscum' is just really weird. Like day3 bluescum!gif is voting his bluescum partner while staying off redscum alisae's *while scumreading them* because he doesn't think that alisae is *redscum*.

Let's go look at GiF's list of reasons why he is obv-town as posted in 924

1. I softed a doc claim day-flipping-1 to draw nightkill for ????
2. I didn't join the beef wagon Day 2, which I could've easily and still get away with it, for ???
3. Draw aggro like crazy during first 1.5 days, for ????
3. I went for spring over Alisae, bussing my partner with other scum alive for ????
4. I killed Ico, whom I could've kept for lylo ambiguity, for ???

I accept that Skitter's #3 is new, but everything else is almost a direct copy of GiF's previously stated reasons for being obv town. Also, GiF repeated 3 twice ^_~

To me her ISO on Sky/GiF reads as 'Sky isn't going to vote GiF, so I need to pursuade GiF to vote Sky' so she started our reads with the presumption that I am scum.

Even so, her read on me largely revolves around my uncertainty day 3 re Alisae/Spring and completely ignores that the reason I was favoring an Alisae lynch was because I had Icon/Alisae/GiF as the highest probability of being redscum. The other element she highlighted was my involvement in Beefster's mislynch; a factor I challenged in 952 which precipitated Skitter's sudden fuck it and vote.

Actually that post bears highlighting because I think it's super relevant now that I know Skitter is scum:
952

Skitter had a problem with me voting for Beefster, after Beefster had sheeped my case/vote against Skitter. But she didn't raise it at the time and she also didn't raise it until this point in the game.
Town!Skitter should have no issues with a player attacking somebody for voting her because town!Skitter would know that Beefster's vote against her was wrong.

Revisiting the sequence of events:
Skitter raises Sky mentioning Kop in 459 as 'weird' and does nothing with it. GiF also raised it as 'interesting' but left it at that.
Skitter pushed it further and dragged up all kinds of posts which are now irrelevant because red is dead but did ultimately result in me putting her in my suspicious books, as highlighted by 537 and backed up by a small case/vote in 543. At that time I'm voting her because:

I can't abide by you voting for Beefster yet criticising the wagon and not really pushing any other angle (other than my Kop post I guess). This doesn't look like the town Skitter I know.

It does look like scum trying to rake up anything that sticks, though.

Right after this (about an hour passed), Beefster votes Skitter with 'I can dig this' and Skitter responds to Beefster only in 546 asking Beefster to explain their vote. I also asked Beefster to explain his vote in 550 and Beefster responds in 551 with:

I'm sheeping the guy who voted skitter right before me (I forget who) because skitter had the worst reason to be on my wagon.

Skitter then questions

my position

but not

my vote

in 553:

Since you didn't really respond to my last post, can you explain:

a) Why you have a problem with me voting Beef even though I'm criticizing the wagon. One of the major reasons I'm scumreading him - and therefore voting him - is because of how he interacted with it. Specifically because he let GIF talk him into voting pretty easily, like without really evaluating it for himself, but then blamed him for it today. Like yesterday he was happy to go along with whatever was being pushed (this is one of those complacency votes I was talking about before) but today he tried to duck responsibility for being on a townflip by blaming GIF.

Why can't you 'abide' my Beef vote exactly? Like I don't really get why you're treating 'voting Beef' and 'criticizing the wagon and not really pushing any other angle' as being like contradictory or mutually exclusive notions.

b) why you don't like my criticism of the wagon in general? Like I strongly believe that there's very likely scum on that wagon given that it was a townflip in multiball and someone on it already flipped green. Is this a premise you disagree with?

c) how you think this differs from my towngame?

These questions are not from a towny perspective of "Hey Sky your vote is wrong", they are questions from the perspective of "What am I doing to make myself look scum/how can I fix that?"
She asked Beefster to explain their vote (fair)
She asked me to explain why I didn't like her Beefster vote
She asked me to explain why I didn't like her criticism of the RedFlavor day 1 mislynch
She asked me to explain what about

her game

is scummy, not to

explain my read

.

At no point did she disagree or question my vote against her. Shortly after I vote Beefster in 556 and Skitter unvotes Beefster because he's been put at L-1 and wants to wait for replacements. Then she goes V/LA and phase ends shortly after. She didn't bring up that she had issues with my vote until the last few hours.

So?

So.

Town Skitter would have looked at who I was voting and why, and realised "Oh crap, Sky was actually casing me!" and this would not have been a thing.

But Skitter made it a thing. It's her ONLY thing apart from attempting to tie in blue associations with Spring, which coincidentally is true.

I realise this is massive confirmation bias

because I know Skitter is scum

but to me this looks like the smoking gun.

I think I'm done. Yes, I'm done.

OK GiF. Over to you.

[Sky_Paladin]

It's her ONLY thing apart from attempting to tie in blue associations with Spring, which coincidentally is true.

Before this gets quoted as look Sky scum claimed, I mean that there appear to be associations that exist between Sky/Spring because of things that actually happened eg I did not hammer Spring when I could have, I did highlight that Spring was at L-1. Yes these things are true and did happen, and I am not disputing that. I am disputing her using this as a reason that I'm scum as an argument, because WIFOM.

[GuyInFreezer]

I'm done thinking

VOTE: skitter

gg regardless of the outcome

[GuyInFreezer]

ACCIO VIOMI

[Viomi]

Ah, yes. Such an interesting choice. So excited to cause death, so eager to see your results...

I am so disappointed.

skitter30 has been chosen for death. Her screams seem distant, unreal as she is dragged away. Her trust, betrayed. She was part of the

Control Group (Vanilla Townie)

We had such high hopes for this batch, and yet you couldn't differentiate the spies from yourselves. Pity. Guess that means we need another round of testing.

Guards, dispose of these specimen. We won't be needing them anymore.

Sky_Paladin endgamed. They were a

Foreign Spy

! They win!
GuyInFreezer endgamed. They were part of the

Control group (VT)

. They lose!

springlullaby wins post-mortem.

Good game!

[Viomi]

Dead thread: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75017
Foreign Spies thread: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75016
Experimental Group thread: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=75015

[GuyInFreezer]

GG!

[the worst]

well modded Viomi, great flavour.

thanks everyone, this has been really enjoyable to read. Sky Skitter and GiF you all played an awesome game, it was a sweet LyLo.

[springlullaby]

Yay we win!! Bravo sky paladin, he won by himself. I did literally nothing D4.
A win well deserved by him I think

Thanks everyone for the game, it was enjoyable!

[Keychain]

gg all, thank you for modding Viomi and well done spies

[GuyInFreezer]

The reason why I would vote Sky over skitter was that Sky reacted poorly to my blitzvote cancel.

But that just wasn't enough for me

[Viomi]

Well-played everyone, I enjoyed moderating this game very much. Sorry if the flavor was lacking at certain points, started a new job doing 12-hour shifts and also just started on my HRT finally so I'm alllll over the place. I did my best to keep the game playable at least, haha. Hope you all had fun!

[Sky_Paladin]

GG everyone I am still on holiday

Skitter everything out of my mouth was a goddamn dirty lie and I’m so sorry X____X

[RedFlavor]

Yeah if only I wasnt quicklynched day1

Thanks Viomi for hosting

[GuyInFreezer]

Still no regret about that lynch lol

[skitter30]

Cool, I get to say I told you so after you mislynch me.

First time getting mislynched on MS

[GuyInFreezer]

You saying that almost saved yourself from being hammered tbh

[skitter30]

GG everyone I am still on holiday

Skitter everything out of my mouth was a goddamn dirty lie and I’m so sorry X____X

I gotta admit that the misreps were kinda pissing me off and making it hard for me to interact with you cuz you were basing your arguments on things that didn't happen and like I couldn't really do much about it when you kept on ignoring me pointing that out.

What convinced me it was you and not GIF when I actually went back and looked was the following:

1. Repeated misreps when we didn't have this problem in stack the deck

2. You felt like you were trying to frame me for the sesq nk or something, using a thought process I would never have used. It reminded me of the last time someone tried to pull that- they were scum hoping to frame me for the nk to get that required mislynch to win. And then I read your Beef vote again and it was wrong in the exact way another vote by a different scumbag in a different game felt wrong. A large part of how I play is comparing a given scenario to something I'd seen before, and you pulling the exact same tricks as other scum twice set off major alarm bells. But I didn't think GIF would buy this as a reason for scum!you so I didn't bring it up.

3. From my POV, the sequence of posts leading up to springs hammer on Alisae was practically a smoking gun for scum!you, but again, it only was from my POV.

You played a great game though, and I applaud the effort you put in for this win.

[skitter30]

You saying that almost saved yourself from being hammered tbh

I really didn't want to get mislynched cuz it ruined my streak but in this I realized I care more about being right than winning, and like, from my POV the game was solved already.

[Iconeum]

Yeah you had to nk me

[Mathdino]

Lol what a meme this game was for my entire faction
> Don't chainsaw defend me
> hawk chainsaw defends me
> alisae replaces into a multiball game to troll, draws scum
> 3/3 original team replaces out

[skitter30]

Btw, sky, if you're ever interested in hydra-ing, lmk, I think it could be fun