Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Scioness Sajj]

Oh I saw what you are accusing her on on this page. I mean earlier. But I guess there was nothing.

[ofrhz]

O my misreading is a definite possibility

Just like... wallposting is more likely to encourage more wall posting and other bad posting behavior, much more than Oxy encouraging 1v1s imo. That was the gist of my point. I think Oxy has done more to push this game forward (except math but he is more experienced at this game), so I’ve been giving him town cred for this

Pedit this is for Scioness

dw bbs, I won’t vote until I read carefully and/or skitter comes back and explains herself

[Scioness Sajj]

Oh yeah I agree that walls are no good.

[Oxy]

@sajj here's my interaction with skitter all in one convenient place to read.

Spoiler:

@ofrzh, 1314.

A few things.

1. Rewind back to your Drixx vote before deadline yesterday, in 1038, and pretend you don't know yet that he was going to flip green. Who were the potential drixx partners?

2. Rewind back to your ruru vote yesterday before deadline, in 1023 - why weren't you considering her potential partners then?

3. "If scioness kept pushing to push for a ruru lynch, I would expect scioness to start scumreading me .... " OK, but like, that hadn't really happened yet, and she wasn't really pushing the ofrzh/ruru angle, so it's weird to defend against that before it starts happening. Like why bring it up now at all?

4. "If ruru flips green, wouldn't that vindicate me?????" No, since you could be white-knighting her the towncred, especially since you seem to be trying to pull that right in this quote.

------

also inb4 skitter is going to hate 1312 since those are her two biggest town reads. Skitter, please just let me have this for a little while, and then I'll work with you on the ruru slot as long as you want. You have my word.

I actually dislike it cuz it feels like you're egging on a fight. The fact that the individuals involved are ofrzh and scioness doesn't particularly bother me.

-----

also I think skitter has a point about validating scumreads with associations.

What do you mean by this?

In post 1315, Oxy wrote:
also inb4 skitter is going to hate 1312 since those are her two biggest town reads. Skitter, please just let me have this for a little while, and then I'll work with you on the ruru slot as long as you want. You have my word.


I actually dislike it cuz it feels like you're egging on a fight. The fact that the individuals involved are ofrzh and scioness doesn't particularly bother me.

I

feel

like my saying "it would be a very pro town move to continue 1v1'ing for a little while longer." should give you an explicit understanding that I was "egging on a fight."

Was that a scummy thing for me to do?

Or was the sentence, "I actually dislike it cuz it feels like you're egging on a fight." just another way to attach a scummy connotation to an otherwise pro-town action?

In post 1315, Oxy wrote:
also inb4 skitter is going to hate 1312 since those are her two biggest town reads. Skitter, please just let me have this for a little while, and then I'll work with you on the ruru slot as long as you want. You have my word.


I actually dislike it cuz it feels like you're egging on a fight. The fact that the individuals involved are ofrzh and scioness doesn't particularly bother me.

I

feel

like my saying "it would be a very pro town move to continue 1v1'ing for a little while longer." should give you an explicit understanding that I was "egging on a fight."

Was that a scummy thing for me to do?

Or was the sentence, "I actually dislike it cuz it feels like you're egging on a fight." just another way to attach a scummy connotation to an otherwise pro-town action?

Yes, I think that egging on a fight is scummy because it creates a gamestate focusing on two people that makes it easier for other people to get overlooked.

(Like right now NSG/pin aren't really posting. If there's a 1v1 between ofrzh and scioness I think it's fairly likely that other players will be subsumed by the argument and kinda forget to pay attention to the two of them.)

Or, like, think about your 1v1 with scioness - it kinda took over the game and made it kinda hard for people to focus on anything else.

I don't think that creating 1v1s on purpose is a pro-town thing to do.

1) Pin said he would be very busy until tomorrow.
2) NSG hasn't posted in the 3 days, 8 hours that this day has been open.

Should we have sat quietly waiting for them while doing nothing?

Do you think 1v1's ever give insight into associations?

Are we so short on time in this 14 day phase that we can't spend 24 or 36 hours on an interaction?

I

feel

like I just want to lynch you today, and mathdino's reads be damned.

Ok, how does purposefully creating a 1v1 *help* anything? Explain to me why this is pro-town.

My point isn't that a 1v1 would make them less likely to post (the point you appear to be addressing). My point is that if they don't post, it's more likely to be overlooked, and that a 1v1 creates a gamestate that overly focuses on two players. Like it creates more room for people not to participate, which is exactly what we don't want.

Also I wouldn't exactly characterize this gamestate as "sitting quietly for them while doing nothing", nor do I believe that creating a 1v1 would solve that problem even if we were to be experiencing it.

Ok, how does purposefully creating a 1v1 *help* anything? Explain to me why this is pro-town.

I think I have a better read on both Sajj and Ofrhz as a result, and I think you're playing dumb right now (but you aren't dumb...).

Ok, how does purposefully creating a 1v1 *help* anything? Explain to me why this is pro-town.

I think I have a better read on both Sajj and Ofrhz as a result, and I think you're playing dumb right now (but you aren't dumb...).

I don't think deliberately creating a sub-optimal gamestate is pro-town, and I don't think that you need to do that to get reads on people.

Ofrhz + Pin

that pair of end of day votes precludes this pretty strongly.
Ofrhz + Skitter - plausible
Ofrhz + Sajj - Less likely than Ofrhz + Skitter but not impossible

Pin + Skitter - Less likely than Ofrhz + Skitter but not impossible
Pin + Sajj - This is possible. I wish we could have seen what would have happened if a sajj wagon had started towards end of day

Skitter + Saj - Less likely than the rest I think because of the strong defenses they have given for one another.

so I guess what I'm saying is I want to lynch Skitter today.

If Skitter flips town, I want to lynch Sajj -> Pin/Ofrhz
If Skitter flips scum, I want to lynch Ofrhz -> Pin/Sajj

VOTE: Skitter30

I'm kinda confused why half the game finds me scummy but there's only one vote on me.

@oxy: Like, once I flip town, can you give some credence to my reads? Lynching scioness after my townflip is like the last thing you want to do here ffs . And like, I don't claim to have perfect reads, but my reads aren't *that* bad that you should just ignore them once I flip; one of my biggest pet-peeves is when I'm dead and people promptly ignore everything I said while I was alive and I'm *right*.

Part of the reason I'm having a lot of trouble figuring you out is cuz we appear to be living in opposite worlds reads-wise and you like just don't make sense to me.

page 52, motivation to read dropping incredibly fast

Like this is exactly why promoting a 1v1 between ofrzh and scioness is an idiotic idea; it'll create an apathetic gamestate that no one wants to read or get involved in. You're promoting things that to me are obviously stupid and like you're clearly a smart dude so it's hard for me to believe that you don't get what I'm saying. And you have bizarre views of the gamestate that are just like ????wtf???? to me, and like you take pride in bullshitting and ugh you just feel really wrong.

And like the fact that you indulge NSG when she asks why you're locktowning ruru but you're deflecting me away from that topic when I ask about it is bizarre.

----

NSG has been bumped up to 'more likely than not town'.

I believe that scum is almost for sure all in {ofrzh, pin, ruru, oxy}.

I kinda hate all of ruru's posting today.

I kinda hate all of oxy's posting from the last couple of pages especially the promoting a 1v1 thing. (not even bringing up everything from day1)

I kinda hate all of ofrzh's posting wrt to explaining his scioness vote.

Oh my god you literally scumread me on day 1 for trying to pressure eth0s after many pages of Oxy vs. SS like what are these posts

Because I think that deflecting away from an active 1v1 that needs to be resolved is scummy.

I think that deliberately creating a 1v1 is also scummy.

Like this is exactly why promoting a 1v1 between ofrzh and scioness is an idiotic idea;

it'll create an apathetic gamestate that no one wants to read or get involved in.

@oxy: do you disagree with this? If so, why?

And like the fact that you indulge NSG when she asks why you're locktowning ruru but you're deflecting me away from that topic when I ask about it is bizarre.

And, you know, you ignoring me pointing this out kinda exacerbates the feeling that you're avoiding discussing this topic with me in particular.

As much as I want to policy lynch skitter right now she hasn't yet done anything that's unambiguously scum-motivated and on the other hand 1220 is really not sitting well with me. Also if skitter flips scum, I still think SS is a lot scummier than ofrhz. So I'll be rereading more SS iso now

Wait, why do you want to policy me?

@skitter30 Yeah, I disagree with it. They don't (and didn't) have to throw walls back and forth for me to get something out of it, and I'm not asking for it to go on for 1000 posts, either. I do actually hope some of the lingering questions get answered.

I am actively avoiding some discussions with you because arguing with you. If you're scum, I'll never convince you about town!ruru. I am interested in what NSG has to say about Ruru because NSG is near the top of my town reads. Also, there is a much better chance NSG can be persuaded to town!ruru since I believe NSG is town, and I don't want to mislynch Ruru. Finally, I'm town reading NSG, and if I want her help sorting other slots the least I can do is answer her questions.

But like... this would be obvious to town!skitter, wouldn't it?

@oxy:

I mean, you've been deflecting and/or ignoring my questions about your ruru read since early day 1, when you were townreading *me*, so sure, that explanation makes loads of sense.

The discussion between scioness and ofrzh *did* lead to some walls, before you even said they should have a 1v1. In fact some of the walls were on page 52, the very page that nsg referenced not wanting to read

Like my point has already been proven and its mind-boggling to me that you think that promoting a 1v1 (likely to produce walls from scioness at the very least) is healthy in a game where a not-insignificant number of people repped out (eth0s) and/or were apathetic because of the density of the game (nsg) and/or refused to read the game upon replacing in (math) and/or never caught up because of it (drixx).

VOTE: oxy

p.edit @sajj different reasons at different times in the game, I guess? Also, I can't be blamed for walls people write before I ask them battle for my amusement.

Also, I can't be blamed for walls people write before I ask them battle for my amusement.

I mean, no, you cant be, but given that that a dialogue between them just before you asked for a 1v1 featured wallposts from both sides, it's reasonable to assume that a 1v1 would also feature wallposts.

Yeah, they don't *have* to sling wallposts back and forth during a 1v1, but given their dynamic just before you asked for one, it does seem likely that a 1v1 *would* feature wallposts, and I'm having trouble believing you don't see that.

And a 1v1 with wallposts is literally the last thing we want in this game given that previous iterations of just that made the game apathetic and were a significant contributing factor for why people were unable or unwilling to catch up.

I'm having trouble believing that you think this is a useful conversation for anybody.

also, the last thing I want in this game is to lose this game. That means I'm going to try and sort people. All damn game you've been like, "no we shouldn't do this because it's a bad way to sort people" but what alternative do you provide? I thought it was a moderating influence, but in reality your play has just been an impediment to town all game. That's scum behavior.

I'm having trouble believing that you think this is a useful conversation for anybody.

You're deliberately promoting a suboptimal gamestate for your own amusement. This is probably the scummiest thing that has happened all game imo, and instead of defending your position (ie explaining why the 1v1 should happen given that it will likely induce apathy), you're calling me scummy for calling you out on your bullshit.

I'm probably not switching votes this phase.

I'm having trouble believing that you think this is a useful conversation for anybody.

You're deliberately promoting a suboptimal gamestate for your own amusement. This is probably the scummiest thing that has happened all game imo, and instead of defending your position (ie explaining why the 1v1 should happen given that it will likely induce apathy), you're calling me scummy for calling you out on your bullshit.

I'm probably not switching votes this phase.

You are deliberately twisting words and trying to spin events to fit a narrative - any narrative! - that either ends without you being lynched, or without you spewing anyone else.

The lack of reason coming from your slot is the clear scum claim that I expected from you. I think it is very pro-town for me to 1v1 you here. I don't foresee my vote moving, either.

I'm having trouble believing that you think this is a useful conversation for anybody.

You're deliberately promoting a suboptimal gamestate for your own amusement. This is probably the scummiest thing that has happened all game imo, and instead of defending your position (ie explaining why the 1v1 should happen given that it will likely induce apathy), you're calling me scummy for calling you out on your bullshit.

I'm probably not switching votes this phase.

Do you actually want to hear the answer to this nonsense?

No, the amusement thing was a joke. I encouraged them to press each other because I wanted to judge an expanded interaction between them, and because I have both of them in my lynch pool and wanted to encourage discussion about why people in my lynch pool would/wouldn't be good lynches.

Also, it's not a given that it will induce apathy. Eth0s was busy. NSG didn't like it, and I apologizing for them walling at one another, NSG. But at the core of this argument is the idea that posts make people not want to play, and that's a great argument for why we shouldn't wall. It's not an argument against having interactions.

Who is your partner? Is it Ofrhz or Sajj?

[Scioness Sajj]

shitposting is the way to go

let's go guys i've already started

[skitter30]

I'm having trouble believing that you think this is a useful conversation for anybody.

You're deliberately promoting a suboptimal gamestate for your own amusement. This is probably the scummiest thing that has happened all game imo, and instead of defending your position (ie explaining why the 1v1 should happen given that it will likely induce apathy), you're calling me scummy for calling you out on your bullshit.

I'm probably not switching votes this phase.

You are deliberately twisting words and trying to spin events to fit a narrative - any narrative! - that either ends without you being lynched, or without you spewing anyone else.

The lack of reason coming from your slot is the clear scum claim that I expected from you

.

I think it is very pro-town for me to 1v1 you here.

I don't foresee my vote moving, either.

Go for it. My slot never gets resolved via nk, there's no vig, and I'm basically always going to be a question mark for people through endgame. Better I get mislynched now then in LYLO.

Italics: You lot appear to be living in some sort of bizarro world where everything is backwards tbh cuz people are pushing things that just don't make sense to me.

(Aside, I like how you're framing this as me *trying to not get lynched* when I all but asked to get lynched phase 1. Nice touch.)

Lynching scioness after my townflip is an incredibly bad idea. You lynch {ruru, oxy, ofrzh/pin, nsg, scioness} in that order. (Yes, I'm fully aware that I put ruru before oxy while voting oxy, no, I don't want to elaborate right now.)

Oxy being alive in 5way lylo is sketchy. Oxy being alive in 3way lylo is even sketchier, and if he's town, should be an *incredibly* strong indicator that his reads are upside down.

(Aside, scum!me killing math last night is probably one of the stupidest things scum!me could have possibly done given the gamestate, so pushing "skitter/ofrzh kill math last night" is stupid. It's at best a horrifically bad understanding of the gamestate, and at worst bullshit).

[Scioness Sajj]

I have asked about what you think, a summary. Not for me to read your interactions but okay

stop being difficult, that's not shitposting we should be doing

[pinturicchio]

shitposting is the way to go

let's go guys i've already started

Oooooh boy I've been waiting for this moment for all my life, oh Lord!

[Scioness Sajj]

above was to oxy, not you skitter

[Oxy]

Oxy being alive in 5way lylo is sketchy. Oxy being alive in 3way lylo is even sketchier, and if he's town, should be an *incredibly* strong indicator that his reads are upside down.

I agree with this to some extent.

[Oxy]

I have asked about what you think, a summary. Not for me to read your interactions but okay

stop being difficult, that's not shitposting we should be doing

I didn't realize I was your secretary. I'm not responsible for summing up stuff you should have already read. I shouldn't even have to consolidate the quotes for you. You want the summary? Skitter is scum.

[skitter30]

No, the amusement thing was a joke. I encouraged them to press each other because I wanted to judge an expanded interaction between them, and because I have both of them in my lynch pool and wanted to encourage discussion about why people in my lynch pool would/wouldn't be good lynches.

Also, it's not a given that it will induce apathy. Eth0s was busy. NSG didn't like it, and I apologizing for them walling at one another, NSG. But at the core of this argument is the idea that posts make people not want to play, and that's a great argument for why we shouldn't wall. It's not an argument against having interactions.

Who is your partner? Is it Ofrhz or Sajj?

They *were* having a discussion about just that *as* you pushed for a 1v1. I don't understand why a 1v1 helps solve the game at all.

No, not a *given* that it will induce apathy, but likely given that *doing the exact same thing earlier in the game* caused that ffs.

The core of this argument is that "wallposts make it hard for people want to play", and not that "posts make people not want to play".

[skitter30]

WTF that Oxy vote

If you think posting in a way that discourages town play is scummy, I think you should take a hard look at yourself or Scioness or even myself (oops) before Oxy.

You just went from likely town to likely scum with that one vote.

That's not my argument. I'm fully aware that I wallpost and I try to cut down as much as possible.

I'm saying that oxy wanting a 1v1 between you and scioness is more likely to induce wallposts from you and her, which will thus induce apathy.

[skitter30]

@sajj - annoying posting styles include wall posting, not letting unproductive threads of conversation die —> leading to more wall posting, talking about the same shit over and over again without making any headway

Both of which all three of us are guilty of to one extent or another but Oxy? Not really imo

That's not what Skitter is talking about imo. I saw that you are on phone so we can talk about when you fully catch up.

It wasn't.

[skitter30]

O my misreading is a definite possibility

Just like... wallposting is more likely to encourage more wall posting and other bad posting behavior, much more than Oxy encouraging 1v1s imo. That was the gist of my point. I think Oxy has done more to push this game forward (except math but he is more experienced at this game), so I’ve been giving him town cred for this

Pedit this is for Scioness

dw bbs, I won’t vote until I read carefully and/or skitter comes back and explains herself

My argument is that oxy encouraging a 1v1 between you and scioness makes wallposting from you and scioness more likely, which will make the game harder to read and make it harder for other people to participate.

[skitter30]

Oxy being alive in 5way lylo is sketchy. Oxy being alive in 3way lylo is even sketchier, and if he's town, should be an *incredibly* strong indicator that his reads are upside down.

I agree with this to some extent.

I agree with this to a large extent.

[pinturicchio]

Oxy being alive in 5way lylo is sketchy. Oxy being alive in 3way lylo is even sketchier, and if he's town, should be an *incredibly* strong indicator that his reads are upside down.

I agree with this to some extent.

I agree with this to a large extent.

Nice WIFOM you got there

[skitter30]

@oxy: explain why you want to lynch scioness after my townflip.

[Scioness Sajj]

I have asked about what you think, a summary. Not for me to read your interactions but okay

stop being difficult, that's not shitposting we should be doing

I didn't realize I was your secretary. I'm not responsible for summing up stuff you should have already read. I shouldn't even have to consolidate the quotes for you. You want the summary? Skitter is scum.

I feel like you have made yourself my secretary by quoting all of those things
I asked because I wanted you to share your thoughts, because you know people can draw different conclusions from the same things. So me reading it again (espeically when I understand what she is talking about and you have made me go through similar situation) won't make me understand you.

opinions are opinion, thinking you are right doesn't make your opinion an ultimate truth that everybody should acknowledge

So instead of being mean you can do what I asked or don't.

[Scioness Sajj]

pintu could you actually shitpost some crazy tinfoil hats?

I feel like people are pretty upset right now

[Oxy]

WTF that Oxy vote

If you think posting in a way that discourages town play is scummy, I think you should take a hard look at yourself or Scioness or even myself (oops) before Oxy.

You just went from likely town to likely scum with that one vote.

That's not my argument. I'm fully aware that I wallpost and I try to cut down as much as possible.

I'm saying that oxy wanting a 1v1 between you and scioness is more likely to induce wallposts from you and her, which will thus induce apathy.

Just to clarify. You're not saying that "posting in a way that discourages town play" is scummy.

You are saying that encouraging others to post, which in turn raises the chance that someone will "post in a way that discourages town play," is scummy.

And you're also not actually claiming that I "post in a way that discourages town play."

Because that wouldn't be a reason to scum read someone anyway.

Heck, you just said that you've been "posting in a way that discourages town play" all game!

So that can't be scummy.

[pinturicchio]

pintu could you actually shitpost some crazy tinfoil hats?

I feel like people are pretty upset right now

I guess I could build a case with Oxy and NSG as partners in crime to make this game even more difficult to sort!

[Oxy]

Ofrhz + Pin

that pair of end of day votes precludes this pretty strongly.
Ofrhz + Skitter - plausible
Ofrhz + Sajj - Less likely than Ofrhz + Skitter but not impossible

Pin + Skitter - Less likely than Ofrhz + Skitter but not impossible
Pin + Sajj - This is possible. I wish we could have seen what would have happened if a sajj wagon had started towards end of day

Skitter + Saj - Less likely than the rest I think because of the strong defenses they have given for one another.

so I guess what I'm saying is I want to lynch Skitter today.

If Skitter flips town, I want to lynch Sajj -> Pin/Ofrhz
If Skitter flips scum, I want to lynch Ofrhz -> Pin/Sajj

VOTE: Skitter30

@skitter30 I was thinking that if you flipped town, that would take the above possible pairs and reduce them to:

Ofrhz + Sajj
Pin + Sajj

Sajj is in both of those pairings, and town would be at 5-man Lylo. Town should probably lynch scum in that situation, don't you think?

[skitter30]

WTF that Oxy vote

If you think posting in a way that discourages town play is scummy, I think you should take a hard look at yourself or Scioness or even myself (oops) before Oxy.

You just went from likely town to likely scum with that one vote.

That's not my argument. I'm fully aware that I wallpost and I try to cut down as much as possible.

I'm saying that oxy wanting a 1v1 between you and scioness is more likely to induce wallposts from you and her, which will thus induce apathy.

Just to clarify. You're not saying that "posting in a way that discourages town play" is scummy.

You are saying that encouraging others to post, which in turn raises the chance that someone will "post in a way that discourages town play," is scummy.

And you're also not actually claiming that I "post in a way that discourages town play."

Because that wouldn't be a reason to scum read someone anyway.

Heck, you just said that you've been "posting in a way that discourages town play" all game!

So that can't be scummy.

"Posting in a way that discourages town play" is anti-town, not inherently scummy.

Deliberately promoting an environment where people are likely to post that way is scummy because you're encouraging anti-town behavior.

There's a difference between "encouraging people to post" and "encouraging a 1v1 between people who are literally engaging with each other *as* you encouraged the 1v1"; those are not at all the same thing. I don't particularly have a problem with the former. In this gamestate I have a problem with the latter because I believe it will induce apathy and I believe that you know that.

[Oxy]

@pinturicchio I beat you to it.

except it would def have been more beneficial for nsg+oxy LOL