Newbie 1863: Rugby - Game Over

[Irrelephant11]

@Thor, all I'm finding is #35's "You don't understand the context of my response, that Nauci didn't react suggests she does."
Oh, and #59's "To answer your question - do a search for Nauci and I in a game, my comments are very valid in that context. I'm not allowed to say any more."

I guess I just don't understand. Are you referencing Nauci's use of personal feelings in other games as a serious reason to vote her now? Or because of something you quoted in 15?

Pre-edit: this is in response to 71. More responses to come later, I have to be AFK for a bit

[Flicker]

Just a quick reply for now while I chew over everything new:

Irrelephant - I doubt that Thor/James is the scumteam. I agree that James' behavior leans scummy, but Thor's rigorous replies draw too much attention to that, whereas a scum!Thor would, I think (based on Newbie 1856 where he was scum with DirtyDishSoap), more subtly shade James while giving him less attention. My inclination is to say James vs. Thor is either scum vs. town or town vs. town, because if Thor is scum I feel like it would make more sense to push James' mislynch rather than keeping his vote on Nauci.

On the other hand, I agree with Nauci that scum IC is scary. :/

PEdit: Started writing this right after Irrelephant's post #69. Hopefully in my next post I can reply to everything else between my last post and this one.

[Thor665]

@Thor, all I'm finding is #35's "You don't understand the context of my response, that Nauci didn't react suggests she does."
Oh, and #59's "To answer your question - do a search for Nauci and I in a game, my comments are very valid in that context. I'm not allowed to say any more."

You have found quite a few answers there.
I will clarify, since this might be tripping you up, you are not allowed to discuss thoughts, alignments, or much else from games that are currently ongoing.
This might explain why I'm being oblique.
Just saying.

I guess I just don't understand. Are you referencing Nauci's use of personal feelings in other games as a serious reason to vote her now? Or because of something you quoted in 15?

As stated in #59 - the former.
There is nothing I quoted in #15 that indicates feelings are an issue in those quotes.
Does my stance make better sense now?

[James Brafin]

I'd like to apologize for being absent. We've had company this weekend and I forgot to V/LA. However, a lot has happened and I hope to address most of it this afternoon.

One thing I will say: Irrelaphant's first post being "Maybe this is the scumteam" pings me. Even I don't do that as town, which I am obviously shit at. I can think of no reason why something like that, and then Elephant's next thought being "But it's probably wrong" comes from town at all.

But maybe that 's just me.

[Thor665]

You'd expect town to be more confident than scum in expressing scum reads?
Why?
I usually find it to be a habit more player based than alignment based, and, if anything, would tend to presume scum would be the 'slip and look more confident' rather than town.

[Irrelephant11]

In response to 77, yes, your words make more sense to me now, thank you. The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is a "serious" vote on someone for out-of-game reasons. Or maybe I'm still misunderstanding you? I'm hearing you say that you ARE voting Nauci for reasons you can't discuss because they can't be found in this game, and that your vote is serious. Am I missing a puzzle piece, or is this just a bad vote? I would think that votes should only be placed for in-game reasons, aside from the RVS.

In response to 73, I do appreciate the summary. Besides the literal difficulty of reading things, though, I was mostly just having trouble parsing how much you were arguing about pedantics vs. the way the game works vs. actual alignment-related things. Especially since I have no clue what a game is like w/ vs. w/o scum daytalk. I was never really reading scum motivation into your stances, though - it was more that this argument seemed fruitless, apart from maybe distancing the two of you if you were both scum. idk, I thought I'd throw it out there as a thing I saw .Based on your summary (and a re-read)), I suppose it's mostly JB I have a problem with. His arguments are hard to read because, as you point out, they're contradictory.

At the end there, I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying JB was joking. I'm saying he accuses you of shading him when all you actually said was "Cool, I look forward to the detailed and full analysis requiring the pause to collect your thoughts " which I thought was a joke.

At JB: that wasn't my first post? Also, I was just pointing out something that could be useful in reading you both, but which would only make sense if it was both of you. I'm definitely not certain, like I said, it's a theory, and one I'm already leaning against. Six of you are town, and two are mafia, so odds are pretty low that I could find both in one guess. I

am

still parsing what your argument with Thor means, as it gave me bad feelings.

I feel like some players are quicker to vote than others. I'm used to playing mafia IRL, where voting happens all at once, rather than as the game goes. IC, is there a normal for voting here? Like, should I always be voting the person I most thinkis mafia? Or only when I'm sure?

[Flicker]

4.

Flickr

. Replacement in at 43. Immediately votes James at 45 because of chat mechanics, but indicates uncertainty. Post 45 criticizes me for wagoning, but Post 57 criticizes my unvote (contradictory?). Post 57 notes who was AFK early game, and responds to James's suspicions in post 50.

Bottom Line

: Has been active since arrival, and provides analysis of player's (mostly my) moves. Slight townread.

I wasn't criticizing you for wagoning, I was criticizing your

reasoning

for wagoning. I then criticized your unvote for, again, your (poor) reasoning. I was counting the number of posts more than the time between them, but either way the game had been fairly slow up until that vote, and jumping off the vote that soon rather than waiting longer to see if your "gambit" worked struck me as odd. Your further explanation in post #68 does not make me feel better, as A) more than 24 hours had actually passed, and B) I don't understand why a vote count would mean your vote could no longer produce information.

I also don't like your blow-by-blow analysis of every player (including yourself for some reason?) in post #66. It's a lot more (unnecessary) summary than analysis, and a little hard to read. Maybe even too try-hard, like a scum player thinking "how can I look the most town"?

VOTE: teacher

Nobody seems eager to follow my James vote, so I'm finally confident enough to put my vote here.

Oh and lets get everyone talking if possible. Flicker, JB, DDS, and Nauci - ummm what do you all think of each other? Any good or bad vibes yet?

I agree with Nauci's town reads/leans on you and Thor. I have the slightest town read on DirtyDishSoap, based on differences in play style between this game and Newbie 1856.

I was feeling a conflicted null about Nauci, but something about the in-and-out of the hospital and on powerful meds info, and continuing to play through that, makes me think she's town? If she was mafia it seems like those would be more of an issue.

I think I've made my scummy feelings about James and teacher pretty clear.

Meji Fan and TheGoldenParadox have not posted enough for me to get any read on. Feel free to post more at any time, you two.

PEdit:

Irrelaphant's first post being "Maybe this is the scumteam" pings me. Even I don't do that as town, which I am obviously shit at. I can think of no reason why something like that, and then Elephant's next thought being "But it's probably wrong" comes from town at all.

But maybe that 's just me.

I've been thinking of scum teams already, too. After reading teacher's analysis the first time, I thought it might be you and Nauci. But, my reads changed before I posted again, so it wasn't worth mentioning. It's barely worth mentioning now, except to say that I don't think that having a scum team theory is scummy.

[teacher]

I was criticizing your reasoning for wagoning. I then criticized your unvote for, again, your (poor) reasoning.

Like I said, I dont blame anyone for scumreading me. Its not the case, but I get why. Two quick responses to this below, but after this I'll let my posts and votes speak for themselves.
1. My first vote concealed my reasons. I tried to pass it off as RVS. The truth is I like short wagons (to -2) because I feel like board reactions are telling. You can see if someone defends, or if someone hops on or off the wagon quickly. Nobody did any of those things in the 24 hours (slight defence as noted, but not significant).

2. My unvote provided some of my real reasons. I didnt think I was getting information (again, nobody on or off quickly, and nobody strong defence). I did not say - but it was one of the reasons - that the vote was hurting the town because it was making me doubt me. Bottom line, I changed because I didnt get the reaction I wanted, but also because I knew I would be low activity and unable to change before a wagon lynched Nauci. My reasoning may well have been poor - I was drunk. But looking at it sober I would likely have done it again. IF I had had more time for analysis at that point, I would have voted TGP rather than simply unvoting, but I fixed that with 66.

Two other responses to post 81, but without quotes since I am a bit tech slow:

vote count as limiting information: Its tenuous, I'll grant. My logic: the thread had been slow, so I guessed not many players were actively analyzing. Before the count was published, they might not have read L-2. Of those active, mafia would be the ones most likely to be analyzing vote count. Thus, if Nauc were maf, Id see some defending or active FoS of others. If Nauc were town, Id see at least one more wagon. When the vote count was published, everyone has the -2 information, which makes reactions less informative.

Player by player analysis: I promised a close read after my return. This was me fulfilling my promise. As for including myself, I was trying to be fair. To me, it would be suspicious not to acknowledge the case against me.

[teacher]

Also, informal votecount by player position. Im the only one with 2.

1. DDS -> Irrelephant (by voting Im bad at 10).
2. Irrelephant --> no vote yet
3. James --> Thor (37)
4. Flickr --> Teacher (81)
5. Teacher --> TGP (66)
6. Nauci --> Teacher (44)
7. Meji --> no vote yet
8. Golden --> no vote yet
9. Thor --> Nauci (15)

[teacher]

I lied again (not a great thing to do as town, I know). I will make one more post defending myself. It's short: You will note at least 5 players have questioned me (Irrelephant 64; James 50; Flickr 45, 57, 81; Nauci 44, 65; Meji 40). Nobody else has defended. I personally would find that comforting if it were a different player. But you make of it what you will.... Im going to be offline for a few hours. Please dont wagon me before I can respond to anything more if needed.

[James Brafin]

Hey, all!

VOTE: James Brafin, partly as a policy lynch because of his posting style, partly because I don't like anyone who has that much confidence on a read this early.

I thought about sheeping Nauci's vote on teacher, but decided I don't feel comfortable sheeping anyone just yet. I do agree with her and Meji Fan that his vote is questionable. I also don't see how there's anything to like (or dislike) about RVS.

MAGES
There is so much wrong with this post. A) You don't policy lynch for posting style (I mean, how weak and untownie is that?). B) Why is confidence a bad thing? Scum is not going to be confident in their reads, they are going to waffle a bit. C) If you agree with something someone is doing, why wouldn't you follow them? D) Where is this Meji Fan thing coming from?

A) When the posting style is as visually irritating (and potentially confusing, given your quoting mistakes) as yours initially was, I think it's something to consider. No one else here feels the need to make their text a different color (save the mod, of course), and we can follow the back-and-forth just fine. I already had a bit of a headache when I started reading, which made your text seem extra irritating, but still - I don't think players should have their own text colors, and if a policy lynch on you discouraged that, good.

Why does changing my playstyle entail policy lynching and potentially throwing the game? In fact, why would town care so much about posting style of this form at all? This is a discussion for outside the game, not something to lynch over, and I don't like the fact that you continue to defend it so vehemently. But for your and other's sakes, I'll just underline my comments on others posts from now on.

B) Just because you don't think scum is going to be confident doesn't mean that town should feel confident with little information. Especially since, when you posted your read on Thor665, there were three slots which either hadn't posted or essentially hadn't posted (ImBad14/Irrelephant11, TheGoldenParadox, and CH4M3L30N/me), and it's possible that one or both scum is in this three (I don't know what the exact % is on that, math wasn't my strongest subject). (Also, I know I just FoS'd myself, but what'cha gonna do in pursuit of the truth? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

Going to cover a few things here: A) Scum will be confident in a bad read on a few occasions, but only if they are for sure going to get away with a lynch, imo. Why would scum have such extreme confidence in a read that has literally no chance of getting lynched at that point? B) Argument from probability. Just because something is possible doesn't make any of my points less valid.

C) I didn't want to just come in and copy-paste Nauci (or anyone's) vote, especially since I don't have any good reads yet. I also thought pursuing a new vote would be more productive and sheeping would be lazy.

This is fair, and I understand the following comments as well.

D) The "Meji Fan thing" is me acknowledging that they also thought teacher's vote was off (post #40). Speaking of...

UNVOTE: nauci

Still travelling though tomorrow night USA time so will be brief. My vote was knowing it would be L-2. I figured it would either prompt some mafia to bandwagon or to speak up in defence if he was maf. Neither really happened though James did speak. As for silence, that’s what I meant - not Nauci but others not defending him or creating another wagon.

Look forward to reading tomorrow.

If that was your intention, why not wait for more activity before unvoting? Whether or not you're confident in a vote, I don't think backing off of it so quickly is very helpful.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=74985

Could you narrow that down a bit - I have zero interest in reading an entire game.

My point is that scum showed no association whatsoever, and threw me, then came in for a clever hammer and duped me into trusting them.

Also, you could be giving bad advice while not lying about game theory, because you approached it as an opinion, not actual fact.

What the heck are you even arguing now?
That I'm giving bad advice intentionally and I'd guard myself by claiming it was opinion not fact (even though, as already noted, that would be against IC play policy)

No, other way around; you give off opinions and use the fact that you are the IC and know more about the game to validate them.

I suppose I did. So then I will ask you, what WAS the point/context of your response?

Not a fan of this handwave of the blatant hole in your method.
I'd like you to discuss your thoughts on why you had a confident read based on me breaking the IC rules and based on a random theory of what I meant with no questioning about it first.

To answer your question - do a search for Nauci and I in a game, my comments are very valid in that context. I'm not allowed to say any more.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but this counts as discussing ongoing games. (Believe me, I've been reprimanded for this before.) So though I'd love to, I can't do what you are asking me.

Because, imo, as town, why do we care about scum daychat, or multiball factions, or whatever? We don't (I don't, anyways); we only care about finding scum and getting them lynched. So when players estimate on scum numbers as a whole, I don't find it suspect, but any further and I always start asking "Why does town care at all?"

Isn't it your argument that scum Daychat changes the way scum play, and thus town *should* be aware of it to adjust their scumhunting (indeed, you're implying I lied about this to fake town out) how can you both believe it is game changing and also that town shouldn't care whether scum have Daytalk?

Gamechanging =/= we should care. We can't actually glean anything from daychat. We can't glean anything from multiball. I personally think that we shouldn't care about that as town.
But that's just my opinion.

No and no. I wasn't, however, expecting a shade on me not actually having a case and trying to look townie. It seems to me that genuine town would be interested in other reads, even if they are slightly delayed. I don't see that shade coming from town.

You're saying town should love and embrace cases on themselves?
That seems nonsensical.
Do you have a long history of supporting cases on yourself when town?
I think it's super reasonable that when any case on me is, by definition, based on one post, that I can believe it's probably weak without having to hear it. After hearing it, even you are admitting you maybe were a touch sloppy, so I appear to be objectively correct on some level, yet now you're calling me scummy for being right?
How does that work?

A refutation is one thing. A subtle shade to discredit before I can get the words out of my mouth is another. I don't expect town or scum to support a case like mine, but I do expect town to be at least neutral toward it before they hear it. I don't think you being right that I was sloppy is scummy, I think that it's scummy that you called me out on it before I even did it.

James, can you break it down a bit better for the rest of us plebs?

Break down what, exactly? You're going to have to be more specific than that.

Flickr basically answered this but...

Your initial post with broken quotations, bolded red text just made it an eyesore to read. We can identify who is who pretty clearly without the need to superfluously enhance the text. For me, I initially couldn't identify Thor and Nauci. Could you please not use the color text at all unless it is absolutely necessary?

Yes, I am underlining now. Hopefully this helps.

I'm going to not bother with the quotes because they're broken and I suck at fixing them.
In regards to your back and forth with Thor...

1. I agree with Thor on daytime scum chat - gameplay is little to no different overall. Scum wouldn't be associating themselves to begin with, day chat wouldn't change this.

2. I wouldn't call stratagem discussion as a form of shading. Discussion of stratagem is really NAI but it detracts town from scum hunting. Not sure how you can misinterpret it as a scum tell, or how can you spin it off as the IC basically doing (not doing in your eyes?) his job. He gave his opinion on the subject of said stratagem. There is no factual "yes you should play this way," "no you shouldn't play this way." You either agree with the IC's assessment on it, because the IC is still just a player like you or me, or you disagree with it and move on.

3. There's a few ways to play out D1. Ask questions, get reactions, vote for pressure. I like the evidence style. If a player is actively acting like they're pursuing an obvious mislynch for example, that's evidence to be used. Towns best weapon is the vote, and it should be used to put pressure on players that are acting negatively.

There really isn't a case to build upon on Thor. We could just go off of his wiki and just say we lynch him based off of that. Think that's a better case.

While I respect your opinions, I don't agree with the first, and when an opinion is stated by a player with more experience and then is attempted to be made sound more forcible by "authority," I get jumpy. That always bothers me.

I'm lost on how I am originally involved in the conversation. I reached to X with Y and that meant Z?

I'm super lost within the red text and broken quotations on what either of you guys' opinions are of whatever it was that I did/didn't do? Like I don't know if this is something I need to clear up about my actions o_o

You are incredibly lost, because, for starters - I never made *any* comment about that. And even if his posts are all a mass of confusion, I don't think mine have been. Maybe do a second skim over the day or something?

His issue with you remains your commentary about Day chat.
His last commentary about you was that he null reads you - so I'm not even sure what you are looking to understand, as he's kind of half admitting now his entire push was meaningless.

Does that help you?
I really think you need to go read the game again.

My opinion is that your comment on scum daychat is odd and not town-aligned. But that's just me. And I'm aware I need to reread, thanks.

It would also explain why the two of them have been arguing over what feels like a lot of nothing - or at least, it's mostly goign over my head, these arguments about how the game works and how an IC works.

Why is it going over your head? I feel I'm being very clear, and I'm starting to feel people are using one ugly post by James to claim they can't assess the debate. Allow me to make it a very simple debate for you (James can feel free to weigh in if he thinks I'm misrepping him;

Thor: 1st post.
James

I suspect that post - reasons coming soon!

Thor: I find needing time to pull together your thoughts to imply your thoughts will be hogwash.
James

It's scummy that you would say that - also here is my case on Thor, I think he lied about theory and also called me scummy!

Thor: (I am just now realizing that him calling out how I shaded his case on me as a reason to present in his case doesn't make a lot of sense timeline wise But here's what I said;)There are rules governing how an IC answers theory questions, so by definition your case is 50% wonky. Also, why should I support a case on me?
James

I disregard your point about the rules due to a very twisted concept of what an IC can do, even though I can't describe how it helped you if you're scum - also I will now kind of call you scummy for downplaying scum daytalk while also saying that Nauci is scum because town shouldn't care about Daytalk enough to ask about it

Thor: either Daytalk is potent enough that I should describe it as scary *or* it's not scary and town shouldn't talk about it - you're currently claiming both to call both Nauci and I scum, which makes no logical sense. How do you justify this dichotomy?

I can't decide whether this is misunderstanding or misrep, but it's bad either case. I'm aware that IC can't lie about theory. Never what I said. I think you are using your status as IC to make your opinions sound like fact and therefore more reasonable. WHICH IS ALLOWED.
I never said you should support a case on yourself.
And I've answered the rest above.

And that's where we're at.
Does the argument read to you now, and can you understand our stances and points?
Do you still consider them meaningless, or do you have an opinion about someone being more or less correct? Do you see scum motivation still in either or both of our stances and why?

In 31, JB accuses Thor of "shading" him for what was pretty clearly a joke. And in 35, Thor asks "Also, how would me "shading" this game theory help me win as scum/hurt town exactly?" which from what I can tell (if I'm reading these posts right - yikes), JB doesn't respond to?

How can you say this and think;
1. It was a joke (when James doubled down on it)
2. That I would castigate my scumpartner so painfully if he was joking with us, since you seem to believe I'd be coaching him for any misstep?

4.

Flickr

. Replacement in at 43. Immediately votes James at 45 because of chat mechanics, but indicates uncertainty. Post 45 criticizes me for wagoning, but Post 57 criticizes my unvote (contradictory?). Post 57 notes who was AFK early game, and responds to James's suspicions in post 50.

Bottom Line

: Has been active since arrival, and provides analysis of player's (mostly my) moves. Slight townread.

I wasn't criticizing you for wagoning, I was criticizing your

reasoning

for wagoning. I then criticized your unvote for, again, your (poor) reasoning. I was counting the number of posts more than the time between them, but either way the game had been fairly slow up until that vote, and jumping off the vote that soon rather than waiting longer to see if your "gambit" worked struck me as odd. Your further explanation in post #68 does not make me feel better, as A) more than 24 hours had actually passed, and B) I don't understand why a vote count would mean your vote could no longer produce information.

I also don't like your blow-by-blow analysis of every player (including yourself for some reason?) in post #66. It's a lot more (unnecessary) summary than analysis, and a little hard to read. Maybe even too try-hard, like a scum player thinking "how can I look the most town"?

VOTE: teacher

Nobody seems eager to follow my James vote, so I'm finally confident enough to put my vote here.

You should not be voting just to get others to follow you. Maybe that's not your intention, but it sure is what it reads like.

Oh and lets get everyone talking if possible. Flicker, JB, DDS, and Nauci - ummm what do you all think of each other? Any good or bad vibes yet?

I agree with Nauci's town reads/leans on you and Thor. I have the slightest town read on DirtyDishSoap, based on differences in play style between this game and Newbie 1856.

I was feeling a conflicted null about Nauci, but something about the in-and-out of the hospital and on powerful meds info, and continuing to play through that, makes me think she's town? If she was mafia it seems like those would be more of an issue.

I think I've made my scummy feelings about James and teacher pretty clear.

Meji Fan and TheGoldenParadox have not posted enough for me to get any read on. Feel free to post more at any time, you two.

PEdit:

Irrelaphant's first post being "Maybe this is the scumteam" pings me. Even I don't do that as town, which I am obviously shit at. I can think of no reason why something like that, and then Elephant's next thought being "But it's probably wrong" comes from town at all.

But maybe that 's just me.

I've been thinking of scum teams already, too. After reading teacher's analysis the first time, I thought it might be you and Nauci. But, my reads changed before I posted again, so it wasn't worth mentioning. It's barely worth mentioning now, except to say that I don't think that having a scum team theory is scummy.

Neither do I in some situations. But the timing of it, the doubt of it, and the lack of hunting before pings me. He went from "Oh, I'm not really doing anything" to "Possible scumteam." It honestly feels like he's trying to set one or both of us up for a fall.

And I'm going to unvote because really, there is no reason for my vote to be where it is right now.
UNVOTE:
Not comfortable enough to put it somewhere else though.

I'm reading Nauci as town-lean Elephant and Thor as scum-lean, and all else as null atm,

[Nauci]

I have a habit of being so addicted I can't stay away

But I'm fuzzy brain af so I am kinda glossing stuff

Thing that is jumping out at me rn is teacher's flip flipping

-RVS vote on wagon jk was applying pressure jk I'm done voting there for pressure jk I shouldn't have unvoted I was drunk jk even if I wasn't drunk I'd have done it anyway

I mean it's impressive how many times someone can cave in 4 pages

But those giant posts with ridiculous minutiae also feel like nervous scum hoping they can tryhard their way out of suspicion

I'll reread the game and figure it out

I don't like how Thor kept answering my questions with "I already answered your question just reread what I said"

I just wanted to know what "that Nauci didn't react suggests she does." Was referring to/about - what did I not react to? Thank you for the explanation on what you mean by context (I know what you're generally meaning but not specifically). I'm asking about what I didn't react to in this game and not for any more details about stuff outside of this, to be clear

It would make it easier on everybody if you could just tell me because I really was lost af

Sorry I can't stay awake any more I'll try to reread some time in the next 24 hours and give more but y'all are a hell of a bunch of text masons mang there's enough in 4 pages to build a border wall

[Nauci]

James I didn't realize you responded with more than just the last bit after the quotes until the 4th time I scrolled past it on mobile

I'm not down with policy lunching for this kind of thing but there has got to be a better way dude

[Thor665]

In response to 77, yes, your words make more sense to me now, thank you. The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is a "serious" vote on someone for out-of-game reasons.

There is no out of game reasons.
But that's partly because nothing is out of game when it comes to Mafia.
If I've played with someone before, and have an opinion on how they play, I can (and probably should) use that in future games.

Also, if I played a game with Nauci before and it was still ongoing I couldn't really debate the specifics.

At the end there, I think you misunderstand me. I'm not saying JB was joking. I'm saying he accuses you of shading him when all you actually said was "Cool, I look forward to the detailed and full analysis requiring the pause to collect your thoughts " which I thought was a joke.

It was a joke, though it is perfectly reasonable for him to suggest it was shade - I clearly made it as a snide cutdown of his future efforts, yeah?

No, other way around; you give off opinions and use the fact that you are the IC and know more about the game to validate them.

How did I do that?
Also, how do you think I *should* have answered that question? Like, now that you know my beliefs, could you re-phrase my response in a non-scummy way for me so I can understand your issue?

Gamechanging =/= we should care. We can't actually glean anything from daychat. We can't glean anything from multiball. I personally think that we shouldn't care about that as town.
But that's just my opinion.

So you think it's so gamechanging that I am scummy for not outlining how major it was.
But we shouldn't talk about it beyond that?
Dude...?

A refutation is one thing. A subtle shade to discredit before I can get the words out of my mouth is another. I don't expect town or scum to support a case like mine, but I do expect town to be at least neutral toward it before they hear it. I don't think you being right that I was sloppy is scummy, I think that it's scummy that you called me out on it before I even did it.

Why should town be neutral about a case on themselves after one post wherein they answered a few theory questions and dropped one vote?
Your reasoning for my post being scummy literally relies on me breaking the rules of the Newbie game. I'm not sure how you keep ignoring that and then using malicious sounding words like 'subtle' when I was just openly sarcastic about the case.

I can't decide whether this is misunderstanding or misrep, but it's bad either case. I'm aware that IC can't lie about theory. Never what I said. I think you are using your status as IC to make your opinions sound like fact and therefore more reasonable. WHICH IS ALLOWED.

No.
You said that I presented opinions as facts (which would be lying).
Do you need me to quote you saying that back to you or would you like to clarify your answer here?

And I'm going to unvote because really, there is no reason for my vote to be where it is right now.
UNVOTE:
Not comfortable enough to put it somewhere else though.

I'm reading Nauci as town-lean Elephant and Thor as scum-lean, and all else as null atm,

[/quote]
If I'm your only scum lean, why are you unvoting me?

VOTE: James Brafin

[Thor665]

Thing that is jumping out at me rn is teacher's flip flipping

What about the flip flopping seems scummy *besides* the flip flopping?
I don't think changing your mind is inherently scummy, yeah?

I don't like how Thor kept answering my questions with "I already answered your question just reread what I said"

I don't like being asked questions I've already responded to in thread
I mean, sure, I'm annoying - but at least admit you are too in that equation, you make me feel unloved when you don't read my posts.

I just wanted to know what "that Nauci didn't react suggests she does." Was referring to/about - what did I not react to?

Well...if you *read the post I made that comment in* you'll note I'm being asked about my RVS vote.
So, in context, the comment can be read as "that Nauci didn't react [to my RVS vote] suggests she does (and adding in what you clipped out) [understand the point of my RVS]

It would make it easier on everybody if you could just tell me because I really was lost af

I am taking extensive pains to help multiple players who are claiming inability to follow a game that is text based.

[James Brafin]

A) What about Elephant?
B)

I feel like this is odd. Daychat does change things a lot. Scum no longer has to associate with one another, and therefore it makes it harder to hunt, esp. by association. It has nothing to do with planning; they can effectively go two completely different directions and screw up town royally.

Can you describe an example of them doing this and why they could only do it with Daychat as opposed to scum play without daychat?
Because I can't think of one - but, like I said, some people disagree with me.
Also, you are aware that, as an IC, I'm actually not allowed to lie about game theory...and this is a game theory question, so by definition either my answer is my honest thoughts or you should report me to the mod.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=74985

Also, you could be giving bad advice while not lying about game theory, because you approached it as an opinion, not actual fact.

Mabye this is just me, but this feels like it might be shading AtA a bit. The actual post isn't bad, it's the specific wording that is pining me a bit.

Again - not allowed to lie about game theory.
Also, how would me "shading" this game theory help me win as scum/hurt town exactly?

I suggest that optimal Tracker play is to claim Day 2, but many would disagree with me both arguing earlier and later and no singular group is overwhelmingly correct (except me, my answer is the best).

Again, opinion, not fact.

Nowhere did I say that you were presenting opinion as fact. I even said you were approaching it as an opinion. However, you CAN state an opinion and make it sound plausible by AfA.
So you ARE misrepping.
C) NO! Just because something "changes the game" doesn't mean we should care as town. Aesthetic "changes the game" but does town care? No. The same is true of multiball (only scum cares then), and I'd argue the same is true of daychat.
Now totally confident this is scum.
VOTE: Thor

[teacher]

1. James 85: I appreciate that you tried something new. But MAN did that not work. I agree with Nauci 87.

2. Nauci 86: Im going to assume you are drugged and not misrepping, but you added at least two extra flips in there:

• "jk was applying pressure jk I'm done voting there for pressure"
  This was all in one post (54), not two flips as implied by double JK.
• "jk I shouldn't have unvoted I was drunk jk even if I wasn't drunk I'd have done it anyway"
  I assume this is talking about 68 and 82. But I never said (in 68 or anywhere else) that "I shouldnt have unvoted.:

I dont expect this (or point 3) will persuade the two people who have already voted me, but offer it for others, along with the lack of defense from others).

3. Nauci 86 and Flicker 81: Both of you have scumread my detailed analysis of each player (post 66). All I can say is I wish every player would do this. It provides insight into not just one or two relationships, but lines between the speaker and all players. Right now, only 20% of the board knows someone elses alignment. Anything that gets more information to more people is town-friendly. Put another way, assume you are right that I am maf. If and when I flipped as such, you would know not only that I was mafia, but also who I tried to soft as town. If everyone made a similar list (rather than FoSing one or two and towning one or two) the webs between players would be visible alot quicker.

4. Why so few questioning TGP (and to a lesser extent Meji and DDS) being AFK?

5. Relatedly, could people share their common posting times so I dont interpret sleep/work as AFK? Not going to hold you to it, just trying to understand schedules for what they are worth.

[Thor665]

Nowhere did I say that you were presenting opinion as fact. I even said you were approaching it as an opinion. However, you CAN state an opinion and make it sound plausible by AfA.
So you ARE misrepping.

Also, you could be giving bad advice while not lying about game theory, because you approached it as an opinion, not actual fact.

[mhsmith0]

Votecount 1.02

Irrelephant11 (1)

DirtyDishSoap ,

James Brafin (1)

Thor665 ,

teacher (2)

Nauci , Flicker ,

Nauci (1)

Meji Fan ,

TheGoldenParadox (1)

teacher ,

Thor665 (1)

James Brafin ,

Not Voting (2)

Irrelephant11 , TheGoldenParadox ,

Day one deadline is Wednesday April 25th, 9 PM PST. (expired on 2018-04-25 21:00:00)

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch!

[/size]

[mhsmith0]

Prodding Meji Fan, TheGoldenParadox

[Meji Fan]

Nauci - your doing exactly what you are accusing DDS of, tons and tons of text, very little having much to do with the game

Elephant - I may be the kg ew Cedrick, but even I cant derive much meaning from the two posts he left. People replace out, it happens.

[Nauci]

Y'all mothas way too tryhard even for me

Page 4 was like reading a thesis project

Housecleaning notes:

-84 teacher what do you mean about 5 players questioning you? What are you speculating/implying?

-85 Holy wallpost batman James. For the love of god please don't nest more than 1 layer of quotes. It has somehow managed to combine red and bold, red, broken quotes, underlining, multiple votes, post links, and like >3000 words. This is fucking untenable man I literally can't read this shit on mobile. I think at some point you responded to Thor's post at me like it was directed at you? Or maybe you were saying my comment on scum daychat is odd and not town aligned, but that you need to reread even though he told me to? idontknowwhatshappeningandatthispointimafraidtoask.bmp

I disagree about voting just to get others to follow you. Getting pressure going is a major tool of scum hunting and getting others to vote scum with you is like kind of the point of the game? Like if a single vote isn't getting any pressure going it's more useful to move it where it would be. I say that as someone who has to have my stubborn voting beaten out of me sometimes.

I think we need to get off of the topic of what ICs are allowed or not allowed to do and whether or not your accusation is in the spirit of the rules or whatever because this isn't a conversation that helps us sort anybody, IMO. Like the more you attack that angle the more he can use "I have to follow the rules I can't lie" line that makes him sound town without actually saying any analysis about this game.

-89 It's not like mind changing flip flopping though. It's that every time he says something and someone pressures him for it he changes his mind as a result of the pressure. My first games as scum I caved the same way because I was terrified of any pressure, and I've seen lots of other newbscum do it too. I don't see good reasoning to change his mind, just this awkward "oh I was worried" or "oh I was drunk" stuff.

I feel like it's pretty clear I've read your posts multiple times but I was still confused so I asked questions. It would have saved us all a lot of effort if you didn't answer "reread lol" so many times.

Also it continues to be my meta that I just don't respond to FOS unless there's a specific thing I need to comment on, clarify, correct, or whatever. I always hate when people get defensive and don't think it accomplishes anything, so I take them all as just prods that I am not townposting hard enough and need to get my shit together. I often look suspicious day 1 to people for random RVS shit and I don't know why but I also don't care because when there's reasons to make good posts I will start making good posts.

-90 Why do you keep talking about multiball and what does aesthetic mean in this context?

-91 I don't see how being in one post disqualifies the waffling count

I count "i did it because drunk" as in the same boat of "shit bad idea' followed by "actually no would've done it anyway." Semantics arguments

Your 66 is like the fucking epitome of IIOA dude. We're here to get your reads, not a detailed summary of just 4 pages of game play with a whole bunch of "not a lot here" shit.

I poke at/park my vote on lurkers when there's nothing better to do, but there's currently better to do. I would also be voting TGP if I could =P Pretty sure he was even on my scumlist

And no I'm not telling you my damn schedule (to be fair, it's whenever I come off a dose and am waiting for the new shit to kick in). Kinda creepy question though dude

-95 Meji - the fuck? I clarified my shit, commented on important shit to note, and gave a reads list that's pretty fucking detailed for page 3

[Nauci]

Updated reads

-Can't really read Irrelephant tbh. Too polite. I don't do well with that kinda nice. Freaks me out.

-Shit lookin' worse for Meji but that's from just 1 post so who the fuck knows

-Thor looks townier to me but I am clouded by the constant I'M AN IC AND I DON'T LIE stuff

shit fuck fuck been bleeding this whole fucking time analysis post tomorrow

[TheGoldenParadox]

i literally forgot this game existed sorry
Right now I'm reading Nauci as slight town lean. She looks to be playing a similar game to Pirates vs. Ninjas but slightly better, doesn't look like she's a different alignment.
I also read James Brafin as town because of his attention and tryhardiness towards the game which is producing a plethora of game content for others to respond to. I also suspect Thor for that I'M AN IC AND I DON'T LIE stuff, it kinda looks like he's scum that slipped and is now trying to get by with that.
VOTE: Thor

[Thor665]

Like the more you attack that angle the more he can use "I have to follow the rules I can't lie" line that makes him sound town without actually saying any analysis about this game.

What analysis do you think I'm avoiding?

-89 It's not like mind changing flip flopping though. It's that every time he says something and someone pressures him for it he changes his mind as a result of the pressure. My first games as scum I caved the same way because I was terrified of any pressure, and I've seen lots of other newbscum do it too. I don't see good reasoning to change his mind, just this awkward "oh I was worried" or "oh I was drunk" stuff.

I agree with you about the pressure level and value change and stuff - my counter thought is this; do you not see newbtown do this/see newb scum do it statistically that much more often?

Because I'd probably fall into a camp of seeing it as a massive newb tell, but don't have a clear feel for it on an alignment scale.

I feel like it's pretty clear I've read your posts multiple times but I was still confused so I asked questions. It would have saved us all a lot of effort if you didn't answer "reread lol" so many times.

How many times did I do "lol read" without also clarifying the answer?
Because I'm pretty sure the answer is 1 or 0...so, what are you going on about it like this for exactly?

I also suspect Thor for that I'M AN IC AND I DON'T LIE stuff, it kinda looks like he's scum that slipped and is now trying to get by with that.
VOTE: Thor

You got me.
Can you please describe the slip I'm using that answer to cover up so all the rest of town can see how well you got me?