Gunner Mafia [Endgame]

[GreyICE]

Ah, so you finally decided. So Brigand Vvulf wants to line up the lynch of a poor innocent Tchill, and then lynch poor innocent Nero Cain. Nero, if that's the case, why not vote Tchill? It's not like he's done a damn thing to give anyone in the game a reason NOT to vote him.

See, lining up lynches usually looks like "vote major wagon because it's pretty good, also player X looks scummy we should probably look at player X tomorrow". NOT doing the heavy lifting of making a case and a wagon on you. Oh yeah brother, your posts was complete horseshit.

[GreyICE]

Like brother, if you really think this, where's your vote? It's not like it's doing anything, you haven't had a vote down since the Bush administration.

But if you plop your vote on Brigand Vvulf, then people will see it in the vote count. They might even try to figure out why. While right now most of the town is skipping half of everything because this town generates more pages than is reasonable. A conversation like this? This could get passed over. But your vote in the count is forever.

And man, no one is gonna buy a Brigand Vvulf vote. That's a damn ugly one to commit to having immortalized in vote count, ain't it?

[Nero Cain]

Nero, if that's the case, why not vote Tchill? It's not like he's done a damn thing to give anyone in the game a reason NOT to vote him.

not voting him. I really really did not like Tor's reasoning for the wagon or you or Pan's or Gorks votes on said wagon. True, his reactions are very poor and if I'm wrong I'm wrong but I'm not going to manipulated into a "vote tchill or we vote you!" by you and brig. Brig finding Tchill scummier than me but wanting a not Tchill lynch really irks me.

[Nero Cain]

your sith mind powers won't work on me Grey.

[Gorkington]

i will eat my shorts if this is scumNero.

[GreyICE]

i will eat my shorts if this is scumNero.

You post naked though

[GreyICE]

your sith mind powers won't work on me Grey.

You'll take the peace-loving road of the no lynch even if it kills you.

[Nero Cain]

i will eat my shorts if this is scumNero.

What do you think of brig finding Tchill scummy but keeps voting not Tchill?

[Nero Cain]

your sith mind powers won't work on me Grey.

You'll take the peace-loving road of the no lynch even if it kills you.

for someone worried about a no lynch that not Tchill vote sure is helping to accomplish that.

[Mulch]

Randomidget replaces Toranaga.

[Gorkington]

assuming tchill town and brig scum, i kind of feel like scum doesnt rock the boat here?
why post a case and vote someone, telling people to follow you if you have a wagon already happening on town?
if he were just saying "nero is scum" and not really trying to effort into derailing the momentum on tchill, i could see your point, but his neroCase is his biggest/most efforted post so far?
why is "brig is trying to line lynches up!" the first thought that comes to mind other than just the fact that its being pushed on you?

[Gorkington]

like, in order for you to think that brig is lining lynches in the manner youre suggesting, you basically have to think that the big efforted post he just made was him trying to set you up without actually getting you lynched today.
that he was just actively not trying to be convincing.
and i dont really think thats the case?

[Brigand Vvulf]

yes, I agree that tchill is comparatively more scummy than nero, and the ISOs will faithfully reflect this, but the reason I'm less inclined to lynch tchill is largely due to the fact that it is a low information lynch because few people have had real interactions with him, namely toranaga and you. We can always lynch tchill later on if this doesn't not change but he is a small fish in a large pond

This is where we run into a philosophical difference. I don't lynch for information, I lynch to kill scum. If Tchill flips scum, then the information I've gathered is "the scumteam is down a member". That's a big disadvantage to be at on day 1. Not insurmountable, but everything gets a little bit harder for them. Easier for power roles to catch them, less members to pull gambits or counterclaim townies, just less wiggle room in general.

Plus I'm not convinced Nero Cain gives us that much information. Unless you're saying tchill is playing so badly his buddies are bussing him for town cred, at which point... eh, I'll take a scum lynch.

If the tchill wagon keeps chugging, would you consider joining? I've seen literally nothing to make me unvote him so far. I'd definitely consider helping you on NC, especially over some of the wagons I consider low quality (Centipede or Brian Skies), the fact that tchill is literally the only serious wagon happening right now does give me pause.

I'll gladly take a tchill lynch if there is no better alternative, but I think the nero read is worth pursuing and I'd like to see where it leads

[Brigand Vvulf]

parroting what gork just said, I don't think in this situation the immediate response for a townie would be questioning whether my motive is lining up lynches

like what

[Panopticon]

@Toran/Nero: please townread each other.
VOTE: Panoptican
First five Tchill votes are still nice. It gets a bit worse as it goes on.
Hey Tchill, I asked you one question and you didn’t answer it. I dislike it when people don’t answer my questions. (ok Brian)
Thor’s Screen interaction isn’t great.
I’ll sheep Chara/Elli unless it’s on a strong townread.

Hello? Reasoning please.

It gets a bit worse as it goes on.

why are you being vague instead of direct about the votes you find questionable?

Because he'd have to admit his reason for voting me is mostly bullshit.

OK, so yesterday I was thinking Ausuka, cheeky, Hop, Nero, and beeboy were all in a hood.

Gork has a good point on counterwagons.
UNVOTE: Pan

Did you mean to quote something else, because this quote isn't really relevant, at all.

Spoiler: grey is towny now

Oh and I absolutely promise to hammer Quick if he's at L-1, regardless of anything. It's pro-town.

it looks like screenplay is not gaining any traction so

VOTE: nero

a couple of his recent posts rubbed me the wrong way

Look, you're town, so I'm going to let you in on the sad thing about these large games. It takes 11 to lynch. There's probably 5 scum, leaving 16 townies. That means if six townies decide to play The Lone Ranger and go off on their own, we would be unable to lynch anyone the scum didn't want us to lynch. In point of fact,

even if the person you are voting is scum

this is true - with 5 scum, there's enough we could split our vote between scumbags and still not get anywhere.

In short, Lone Ranger votes like these rarely accomplish something, even if they happen to land on scum. So try to sell us, or try to work with us. Nero's posts legit aren't great, but something like this isn't really going to sell us. It's a weak vote, that puts no pressure on Nero (because he needs 10 more to get lynched) and doesn't really even have bullet points for him to address (and potentially make himself look scummy). It's effectively a non-post due to game size.

If this was a micro things like this can work, because there's so few people that just putting a vote out there is important, but in a game like this you aren't even 10% of a lynch wagon. So please, lets work together.

You know this game is in a bad state when GreyICE is making sense.

VOTE: Grey

Can we get a Grey wagon going?

1. He refuses to engage with me
   
2. Creature said he can't be TSTBS
   
3. His behavior is Scummy af

No. tchill is today's wagon, no deviation allowed, absent a literal scum claim.

Toranaga is being replaced and may no longer post.

WotM'd day 1, that's a new low.

yes, I agree that tchill is comparatively more scummy than nero, and the ISOs will faithfully reflect this, but the reason I'm less inclined to lynch tchill is largely due to the fact that it is a low information lynch because few people have had real interactions with him, namely toranaga and you. We can always lynch tchill later on if this doesn't not change but he is a small fish in a large pond

On the other hand, it's actually better to get it out of the way now. If he's scum, he's marked by his team as lynch bait and they will change how they interact with him, which will give us less information than flipping him today. I also agree with GreyICE that the only good scum is a dead scum.

Ah, so you finally decided. So Brigand Vvulf wants to line up the lynch of a poor innocent Tchill, and then lynch poor innocent Nero Cain. Nero, if that's the case, why not vote Tchill? It's not like he's done a damn thing to give anyone in the game a reason NOT to vote him.

See, lining up lynches usually looks like "vote major wagon because it's pretty good, also player X looks scummy we should probably look at player X tomorrow". NOT doing the heavy lifting of making a case and a wagon on you. Oh yeah brother, your posts was complete horseshit.

I'm not sure I want to pursue this over tchill today. But it's something I'm willing to look into tomorrow.

~The Observer

[Nero Cain]

parroting what gork just said, I don't think in this situation the immediate response for a townie would be questioning whether my motive is lining up lynches

like what

i'm town.

tell me what I should have thought.

[Brigand Vvulf]

is that a question?

[Nero Cain]

not really but if it makes you feel better put yourself in my shoes. You know you are town and the wants to lynch you over the leading wagon. What do you think here?

[Brigand Vvulf]

If I'm town and someone drops a case on me, my immediate thought won't be anywhere near the leading wagon; it would be looking to refute the case

[Nero Cain]

that's not the question though.

[Spiffeh]

There's also Spiffeh I simply don't know how to read

Just assume I'm town in every game ever and never question it

[Brigand Vvulf]

that's not the question though.

ok I really don't see where this is going but if you think my read is wrong then by all means we can talk about that

[Nero Cain]

A) he's appearing to look active without really contributing anything of value to advance gamestate

this is really subjective. Ask Cheeky how this worked out for her?

he likes to dip in discussions that don't produce meaninful results that could then leads to reads

???? I've given plenty of reads this game

1105 pre-emptive discrediting while responding accusations

???? Why is arguing that I did not like Tor's stance scummy? Is this a wrong post number?

2. responding to ausuka's TR on creature, but offering no original opinion

I'm not even sure what this is. Mostly b/c there's no post # and secondly b/c just what even is this? I'm not scum reading either ausuka or creature.

3. 1258 dismisses the tchill wagon but approaches it from a wierd side angle while responding to grey, offers an unimpressive lurker isn't always scum defense, no opinions on people on the wagon

you aren't even talking about the Tchill wagon. I don't think its a good wagon. I mean sure, I guess I'll give you that my 1279 could theoretically give me a loophole for voting him later (you are doing the same btw) but why does my read on tchill have to be static? Why can't I have reasons that pull me one way and reasons that pull one in the opposite way?

I'm also hard scumreading GreyIce (1284 ) You didn't even talk about the tchill wagon up until recently so I don't think you really have ground to stand on.

there are lots of exampes but the one that stood out was in 1090 when he offered an opinion but didn't pursue it any further

out of the three I talked about in that post only Tor responded and we each said our piece and moved on. I'm not sure what you feel like I should be doing here. Should I instantly start yelling that Pan is scum?

1. I was offput by his consious effort to shake off the early SRs on him

I mean, sure. Town do the whole naked voting reasonless votes thing but I don't see the problem with me asking you and Tor to back them up.

3. self-awareness re: beeboy 1090

Town can't be self aware?

2. A major proponent is the back and forth with toranaga with the absurd amount of OMGUS and jumping to the conclusion that tora must be scum, examples of this would be in 1134 where he discredits for seemingly non reason, and in 1248 where he mentions that scum could be sheeping tora with wagons but takes no initiative to spot any names

Eh, Tor wasn't very townie but I don't think I ever reached the conclusion that he can't just be bad town. 1134 is just an assholey way of saying I didn't like his reads. I feel like your more just sticking up for a friend than anything b/c why do I have to like his reads? Why does disliking said reads more likely to come from scum than town? Your right that I haven't taken the few minutes to ISO the mod and see the wagons that Tor was leading and who was following him around. Its something I said and its something I think could be possible but I'm not married to it or think that someone keeps voting with him that they HAVE to be scum.

I think your case lacks merit and doesn't hold water. There's alot of hearsay and hypocrisy here (scum projecting?)

[beeboy]

VLA

[Brigand Vvulf]

cool, I'll respond when I get home