Newbie 1863: Rugby - Game Over

[Thor665]

thor you've asked questions but I don't think you expressed an opinion on teacher

You are correct, it's because I don't have one worth expressing.
Null would be my current answer.
I think most of the things he's being pushed on are silly, but I also think we're at a stage of the day where it's perfectly fine to push someone for silly reasons. I think he appears to be trying, but I don't think he's accomplishing much, but then again he is an apparent Newbie, and I also kinda feel like English isn't his first language which both cloud a read on effort. So, Null.
Why do you think I should be expressing a read on him at this stage?

Thor - who do you think my top scum read is? Are you being obtuse? Who I'm voting for is a hint.

Your vote on Nauci was done super early and claimed 'lack of content' as the issue.
Since then the game is no longer super early and also Nauci has posted quite reasonable levels of content.
Even when I asked you to state your top scum read you...kind of don't seem to suspect Nauci anymore, even though you're leaving your vote there.
So I'm not sure why I shouldn't be confused as to your current stance.

Do you still think Nauci is scummiest for posting early and not saying much during Page 1?
No one else has done anything equally or more scummy since then?

[DirtyDishSoap]

Oh and lets get everyone talking if possible. Flicker, JB, DDS, and Nauci - ummm what do you all think of each other? Any good or bad vibes yet?

Flicker - I like his rebuttals and dig his posts. I get a good town vibe from him based off his interactions and I think his reads on other players make sense mostly. Only disagreement I have is labeling Teacher as TTTBT.

JB - Coming in at first at most unappealing poster to read. I really hate that after a couple gripes for him to change his text format, he underlines it to just be annoying. I don't get why he feels the need for his text to be visually distinct. I'm getting a TvT vibe in regards to Thor, although, I have to stress this, I don't think the stratagem discussion really offers much in terms of finding who is AI/NAI. I'll give a quick complaint about it later.

DDS - Dirt Bag.

Nauci - I can't get a really good read off of her. Most of her posts I find semi or incoherent and I can't really see what she's seeing. I understand now that she is ill and uses this site as an emotional crutch, but I also don't need a reminder every post that she's ill. Not trying to be insulting or start a pity party, and I probably will get blasted for this, but I can't stand seeing it every post about her personal life with the constant need to swear. Swearing excessively just gives me the vibe that you don't know what you're talking about, or half heartedly trying with no thought/reason.
My 2nd unappealing poster.

Why I hate the stratagem - You can disagree with me fundamentally if you'd like, but I still feel like it detracts and chews through precious time that could be used to actively scum hunt other players. This also acts as a blanket shield for our IC where you

cannot

base his opinions on said stratagem as AI. Feel free to argue with me on that.
I think choosing to participate in the stratagem discussion and focusing on the IC for answering these questions (he is obligated to after all), can be viewed as scummy. The IC is putting himself in the spotlight to answer these questions, and I'll never understand how folks can treat the answers given as AI, much less find scum motivation behind it.
Overall, do anything other than discuss stratagem.

@post 66
You opened up that my RVS is on a player that was replaced out. Do you think I should unvote based off the replacement?
Also, why the vote on GP? Why not myself whom you could say that I was lurking? Why not Irrelephant either at that time? That feels lazy when you have others that are actively contributing.

I'm going to throw this out here as well:

I lied again (not a great thing to do as town, I know). I will make one more post defending myself. It's short: You will note at least 5 players have questioned me (Irrelephant 64; James 50; Flickr 45, 57, 81; Nauci 44, 65; Meji 40). Nobody else has defended. I personally would find that comforting if it were a different player. But you make of it what you will.... Im going to be offline for a few hours. Please dont wagon me before I can respond to anything more if needed.

There should absolutely be no reason to actively lie, even if the matter seems trivial. It's not a major scum tell, but "I lied again" really makes me take whatever you post with a grain of salt. I'm actually fine using you as a placeholder for now. VOTE: Teacher

Irrelephant - I'm not seeing the connection between the two or how it can be scum motivated. You can wear a funny hat though if they flip scum.

I tackled Teacher slighty but I also find a lot of his posts inflated. The fact that he's openly admitting to lying multiple times, I see no reason to keep him around and would be more than happy to lynch him at the end of D1 if we are unable to find another candidate.

[teacher]

DDS on mobile but just in case you missed the earlier explanation, the “I lied again” was trying to be funny/mock myself because I was writing that post (84) immediately after saying (in 82) that I wouldn’t write another post.

[DirtyDishSoap]

Well, that's embarrassing on my own end for misinterpreting. Im pretty sure you could have opened that up in different ways but whatever tickles your pickle.

[Thor665]

I was kind of waiting to see how far that one would go.

@DDS - now that you're aware of teacher's claim of what he said he was lying about - could you explain to me, before he clarified, what you *thought* he was lying about?

[DirtyDishSoap]

I was kind of waiting to see how far that one would go.

@DDS - now that you're aware of teacher's claim of what he said he was lying about - could you explain to me, before he clarified, what you *thought* he was lying about?

I initially skimmed his post and the "I lied again" part raised a concern. Pretty dumb of me. I didn't see this explanation until he mentioned it and looking back over, Elephant addresses it.
Why not ask this question for Elephant as well if this strikes you odd?

[James Brafin]

*sighs* I've got a lot of catchup to do.

I'm starting to scumread DDS for post #126.
A) I didn't do it to be annoying; I did it when I quote lots of stuff to make it easier to read. I'm going to take Irrelephant's advice tho and start just leaving the post number and comments. But regardless, this is a massive misrep and Attack on Person. Not to mention we aren't DISCUSSING stratagem, so I have no idea where that came from.
B) There's also an Attack on Person on Nauci. DDS seems to be trying to make players seem inept and their opinion trivial simply on the grounds that "they are bad posters." While the complaints about her being sick are a tad bothersome, they don't warrant THAT.
C) Aren't YOU discussing stratagem in your post, in your paragraph about NOT discussing stratagem? Besides, we are far beyond that topic. Only YOU are still hung up over it; my reasoning is that Thor could make opinion sound like fact because of his IC role. It is NOT a strat discussion.
D) That was obviously a joke, not a scumslip. He's not "lied multiple times," he's making a humorous statement, and I think you know it. This is a crappy placeholder vote.

Right now, DDS looks far scummier than Thor based on ONE POST.
VOTE: DDS

Also starting to get pinged by teach after a reread; he seems to be tryhard summarizing or active lurking, so to speak.

My reads at the moment:
=============================================================================================================================
Tonwread:
Nauci

Town lean:
None

Null:
Meji Fan
Flicker
TheGoldenParadox

Scumlean:
Irrelephant11
Thor
teacher

Scumread:
DDS

[Flicker]

-hella sussing TGP for 98. feels like pocketing me plus misusing my point about ic stuff to FOS Thor with made up grounds

Potentially dumb newbie question: What does pocketing mean? I can't find it in the MS Wiki or through Google.

Flicker - I like his rebuttals and dig his posts. I get a good town vibe from him based off his interactions and I think his reads on other players make sense mostly. Only disagreement I have is labeling Teacher as TTTBT.

*Her, thanks.

I didn't say he's TTTBT (assuming this means "too town to be town"). I said he seems like scum (unsuccessfully) trying to look town. Although, honestly, I don't know what would qualify as TTTBT. "You're helping town too much, you must be scum" seems like bad logic. Unless I just don't know what TTTBT means, either.

DDS - Dirt Bag.

I like this post - a lot of your reactions are similar to mine, especially to teacher's "lying" (the first time I read that, I freaked out, too). Overall, putting you back in my town-lean pile.

PEdit: That's a lot of scum and not nearly enough town, James. You're not helping your case here.

[teacher]

I have played online once before. One thing I will say is that the opening 6 pages have been quite revealing as to this site's meta, which is quite different from the other site's. I think that difference has in part led to a personally unprecedented number of people scumreading me day 1. And Nauci actually captured the difference.

newbs drawing scum is what makes the nerves kick in high gear, or at least it was in my scum games, and also the games where I nailed a few nervous newbscum asses to the wall. Town have "whatever I'm town so FOS if you wnat to" to fall back on

On my other site, town was expected to fall over themselves to prove town. If they didnt, it was viewed as lurking/scum. Im not sure I agree with the meta here, because a town lynch does hurt town, even if not severely (and is bound to happen at some point). Moreover, I think drawing pr would create the same nervousness, and so the other sites meta helped conceal town power roles better. But it is clear from everybody that this is this site's meta, and now I will know that for future games.

This line of reasoning actually seems... fine, if you're town. Your vote count information explanation also seems... fine, if you're town.

Frankly, this shading of me feels like grasping at straws to discredit me, and I

really

dislike that.

I don't want to be on a wagon with my current strongest scum read.

1. Apologies to you (and Nauci) on the gender confusion. I will learn to look left more.
2. You are absolutely right. TBH, I misdescribed your post 81 in the spreadsheet where I am keeping player by player track, and so did not think it was detailed (because you didnt explain the DDS read). You now have in a way Im comfortable with, and you are providing detailed chats. Im back to town tell, but.....
3. This post seems somewhat contradictory to me. Youre comfortable with my explanations (if town), but I still am your strongest scumread? Genuinely questioning why?

TTTBT.

DDS - Dirt Bag.

You opened up that my RVS is on a player that was replaced out. Do you think I should unvote based off the replacement?
Also, why the vote on GP? Why not myself whom you could say that I was lurking? Why not Irrelephant either at that time?

1. I'll echo Flicker in that I dont know and couldnt find TTTBT. I couldnt even come up with his guess, which seems right. I also loved the dirt bag.
2. As for why TGP - seemed to be most active lurking based on pagetop -- and confirmed through now. I did slight scumtell you at that time, but not enough to vote, and you had been far more active than TGP with questioning Nauci 27 and James 41 not to mention 62. I did not scummtell elephant because he was a new replacement who said LA, and I credited that.
3. I still disagree with your strategem point, but appreciate the explanation. I think with 14 days theres enough time to do both, and all chatter can help.

[teacher]

My gut. If want reasoning, ask.
DDS -> slight town.
Irrelephant -> nullish town.
JB -> null.
Flicer -> slight town.
Nauci -> nullish scum.
Meji -> slight town
TGP -> slight scum
Thor -> null.

[teacher]

Finally, how do you p edit? I cant see an edit button after I submit. Or, if not post-submission edit, what does it mean?

[Flicker]

This post seems somewhat contradictory to me. Youre comfortable with my explanations (if town), but I still am your strongest scumread? Genuinely questioning why?

Post #66 is still the main reason I read you as scum, along with your general pattern of posting. The information about different site meta maybe throws that into question, though. Could we get a link to the other site, to see for ourselves?

PEdit: 1. What about Meji Fan is townish? 2. It stands for Preview Edit.

[teacher]

Could we get a link to the other site, to see for ourselves?

It was pbem, unfortunately. Im a lawyer who hasnt had time to play in 10yrs. Wish I could give it to you, as I know this looks sus.

Also, random @Thor - native English speaker. The defence/defense is because I was English schooled but American located. Other grammar issues are because Im trying not to let my love for the game swallow the rest of my life, and so shorthanding posts.

[teacher]

What about Meji Fan is townish?

Im still fixated on my own personal idea of replacing Cedrick even though Cedrick had participated in RVS and provided light comments. Even Meji told me to drop it, but i cant. I also appreciated Meji's pointing out repeatedly that nauci was mostly noise, because I agreed with it at those times though more content has been coming (and I credit Meji's acknowledgment of that as well). Hasnt waggoned or moved. Finally view the lack of politeness as a nonscum move, even if I prefer courtesy as a personal style thing.

Counter arguments - among the least detailed posts, and not many of them. First to point out the issues with my vote, suggesting active tracking of votecount despite lack of detailed partipation (though this is more null because had just arrived so tracking could simply be getting up to speed, and the vote was indeed questionable by that logic).

Anything else I should consider?

[teacher]

@nauci - how does TGP's style here compare to the other games you have had together that they referenced at 48?

[Irrelephant11]

How am I scummy if JB isn't my partner?
I have seen no evidence of that thought coming from you, did I miss it?

I... well. Actually, good point. I've had some iffy feelings about you, but mostly that's from looking at your posts through theoetically-scum glasses. I think I've been internalizing the what-if-scum-IC paranoia too much. If James gets lynched and shows up mafia, I might be back to suspecting you (who knows, there's lots of time left), but I don't actually have much of a read on you alone yet/

Irrelephant:

How does Thor's new vote for JB change this perspective?

It doesn't, really - in fact, it seems like bad scum play for him to move his vote to James after I pointed how doing so could be scummy.

Also a good point for you, Thor. Flicker is coming across to me as fairly logical and like she's actually examining things for alignment - feeling ood about her.

Meji's case on Nauci in 122 isn't making much sense to me, especially because, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you

approve

of most of what Nauci has posted since page two? So what's to suspect?

Also, come to think of it, hey Nauci?

-Shit lookin' worse for Meji but that's from just 1 post so who the fuck knows

What about Meji's post makes them look worse?

Trying not to sound too all over the place, but making a note for myself and others for later to watch for a potential relationship between Nauci and Meji Fan. Sometimes relationships give mafia away all at once, js

[Irrelephant11]

I'll be sure to update sometime today/tonight when I get the chance.

Great! when you do, can you make sure to comment on Teacher, JB, and Thor? Pretty sure among te three of them there is at least one Mafioso.

@DDS, I like your 126, for the most part. Could you share a Thor read, too?

Also,

Why not ask this question for Elephant as well if this strikes you odd?

I wondered this as well.

[Irrelephant11]

My gut. If want reasoning, ask.
DDS -> slight town.
Irrelephant -> nullish town.
JB -> null.
Flicer -> slight town.
Nauci -> nullish scum.
Meji -> slight town
TGP -> slight scum
Thor -> null.

Not sure how you're null on JB

and

Thor? Like they had a big long conversation with a lot of potential alignment moments. If your reads are all "slight" anyawy, seems like you ought to have something on one of them by now?

Not loving how you're still in continual excuse-mode, either.

I'll hopefully be back once more today, if not see y'all tomorrow

[James Brafin]

Flicker: And why do you think I care? Only scum appears about appearances. Don't try any assumption before narrative things on me here.

In agreement with Teacher on post 120. His stuff makes sense coming from town, but for some reason you are scumreading him? That's really contradictory.

Teacher, this is typical TGP. He almost always lurks as town.

[DirtyDishSoap]

*sighs* I've got a lot of catchup to do.

I'm starting to scumread DDS for post #126.
A) I didn't do it to be annoying; I did it when I quote lots of stuff to make it easier to read. I'm going to take Irrelephant's advice tho and start just leaving the post number and comments. But regardless, this is a massive misrep and Attack on Person. Not to mention we aren't DISCUSSING stratagem, so I have no idea where that came from.

Sorry, but when it's pointed out that it's rather annoying you're trying to make your text distinct for no other reason than to make it "easier to read," and that we've all said we can read you clearly, it comes off as you blowing everyone off or just to be annoying.
If you hadn't noticed, #126 was a catch up post. As I said, I have 2 other games active, and more that just started on another one. This one isn't my top priority to read and respond to.

B) There's also an Attack on Person on Nauci. DDS seems to be trying to make players seem inept and their opinion trivial simply on the grounds that "they are bad posters." While the complaints about her being sick are a tad bothersome, they don't warrant THAT.

If I have to read a bunch of curses or an overtly inflated post when it can be summarized in a few sentences or less, I generally will find it dumb. I've stated that she should focus on her health rather than this game. If Mafia is her way of dealing with reality, more power to her, I'm just saying it's unnecessary to curse every other word (you're taking the time to type and put forth a though, is it necessary to type fuck fuck shit [insert personal life problem?]) I'm not trying to be a cold hearted human being here, but I'm trying to enjoy a game. It's not enjoyable to read these kinds of things on a constant basis. Is keeping it private too much to ask?
I'm not sure how you can find this AI but then again, you previously found Thor answering in an opinion to be scummy, so who knows how you read people?

C) Aren't YOU discussing stratagem in your post, in your paragraph about NOT discussing stratagem? Besides, we are far beyond that topic. Only YOU are still hung up over it; my reasoning is that Thor could make opinion sound like fact because of his IC role. It is NOT a strat discussion.

Again, catch up post. You're more than welcome to disagree with it.

D) That was obviously a joke, not a scumslip. He's not "lied multiple times," he's making a humorous statement, and I think you know it. This is a crappy placeholder vote.

Tomato, Tomatoe. I didn't see it, apparently others didn't see it as well. Why are they exempt for it?

Right now, DDS looks far scummier than Thor based on ONE POST.
VOTE: DDS

Arbitrary vote.

If you can't take constructive criticism, you're playing the wrong game.

@Irrelephant
I actually have to agree with the null vote for Thor. Thor's an incredibly dangerous player and it's hard to slot him, I'm really hesitant to place him in any slot unless there's a major slip or a major pro town move.

[Nauci]

2 things that look related but aren't really

1 - DDS coming out of lurk to post NAI "these people are annoying" AtE looks pretty bad. Had same reaction as JB

2 - fuck you DDS don't police my language or tell me what to do with my time because of my health. Call it annoying if you want but fuck off with the "you should focus on your health" or "emotional crutch" patronizing language

My posts have been off the cuff and not up to my usual writing standards but my points have NOT been incoherent. if you can't comprehend a post's meaning because I said fuck, that's your problem

More to come when I can get to a PC again

[mhsmith0]

replacing TheGoldenParadox

[DirtyDishSoap]

2 - fuck you DDS don't police my language or tell me what to do with my time because of my health. Call it annoying if you want but fuck off with the "you should focus on your health" or "emotional crutch" patronizing language.

Fine.

@mod Replace me

I wont play a game that will be all around not fun for myself due to one player's problems.
Gl town.

[teacher]

Please dont DDS. I like your style and analysis. Its obv up to you, but I wouldnt leave a game over a style disagreement with one player. (If it is because youre overburdened from the other games, fair enough and good luck in them. Forgot how much of a timesuck these games can be).

[Thor665]

Please dont DDS. I like your style and analysis. Its obv up to you, but I wouldnt leave a game over a style disagreement with one player. (If it is because youre overburdened from the other games, fair enough and good luck in them. Forgot how much of a timesuck these games can be).

She told him 'F you' I think the interaction there is perfectly reasonable and fine for him to depart from. Neither of them was being overly pleasant to the other, and it's a game - you're supposed to be enjoying yourself.

@Elephant - the answer to your question is, because DDS brought it up second.