Newbie 1863: Rugby - Game Over

[James Brafin]

In post 214, James Brafin wrote:

I waffled on Thor for two reasons:
1) My vote was helping no one where it was. It was just as untownie to leave it on a useless wagon, when I could be helping town.
2) Other than his "opinions as fact" stuff, there's really not that much hard evidence against Thor on a reread. I got Confbiased on him tho and voted him anyways. I'm beginning to lean town for him now.

1) Except that you did replace it with an unvote. How does an unvote help town more than a vote?

You seem to have missed this question.

It's better than a random vote with no other information. I hadn't scumhunted at all yet becasue I was so focused on Thor, so I didn't want to place my vote ina place where it would get town lynched or be of no real use.

[Not Known 15]

In post 214, James Brafin wrote:

I waffled on Thor for two reasons:
1) My vote was helping no one where it was. It was just as untownie to leave it on a useless wagon, when I could be helping town.
2) Other than his "opinions as fact" stuff, there's really not that much hard evidence against Thor on a reread. I got Confbiased on him tho and voted him anyways. I'm beginning to lean town for him now.

1) Except that you did replace it with an unvote. How does an unvote help town more than a vote?

It's better than a random vote with no other information. I hadn't scumhunted at all yet becasue I was so focused on Thor, so I didn't want to place my vote ina place where it would get town lynched or be of no real use.

random vote

Wrong answer.

UNVOTE:
Not comfortable enough to put it somewhere else though.

I'm reading Nauci as town-lean Elephant and Thor as scum-lean, and all else as null atm,

Thor as scum-lean

This does not add up.

[Oxy]

Okay, maybe he is scum. I like nothing out of you so far today, James.

[Oxy]

If he flips scum Flicker partner makes a lot of sense.

Gonna think about it over dinner, but I might be the hammer tonight

[James Brafin]

Flicker Case

Hey, all!

VOTE: James Brafin, partly as a policy lynch because of his posting style, partly because I don't like anyone who has that much confidence on a read this early.

Firstly, what the heck? Second page, first post by Flicker, and we are already discussing policy lynching? And her only other reason is that she doesn't like "confidence." I don't understand why town can't eb confident in their scum reads, esp. since she's confident in her town reads later on.

4.

Flickr

. Replacement in at 43. Immediately votes James at 45 because of chat mechanics, but indicates uncertainty. Post 45 criticizes me for wagoning, but Post 57 criticizes my unvote (contradictory?). Post 57 notes who was AFK early game, and responds to James's suspicions in post 50.

Bottom Line

: Has been active since arrival, and provides analysis of player's (mostly my) moves. Slight townread.

I wasn't criticizing you for wagoning, I was criticizing your

reasoning

for wagoning. I then criticized your unvote for, again, your (poor) reasoning. I was counting the number of posts more than the time between them, but either way the game had been fairly slow up until that vote, and jumping off the vote that soon rather than waiting longer to see if your "gambit" worked struck me as odd. Your further explanation in post #68 does not make me feel better, as A) more than 24 hours had actually passed, and B) I don't understand why a vote count would mean your vote could no longer produce information.

I also don't like your blow-by-blow analysis of every player (including yourself for some reason?) in post #66. It's a lot more (unnecessary) summary than analysis, and a little hard to read. Maybe even too try-hard, like a scum player thinking "how can I look the most town"?

VOTE: teacher

Nobody seems eager to follow my James vote, so I'm finally confident enough to put my vote here.

Oh look, confidence in a read, after saying she doesn't are for this confidence from me. Surprise. And then there is this thing about not getting followers. It looks like she's trying to lead a lynch and gain town cred.

Oh and lets get everyone talking if possible. Flicker, JB, DDS, and Nauci - ummm what do you all think of each other? Any good or bad vibes yet?

I agree with Nauci's town reads/leans on you and Thor. I have the slightest town read on DirtyDishSoap, based on differences in play style between this game and Newbie 1856.

I was feeling a conflicted null about Nauci, but something about the in-and-out of the hospital and on powerful meds info, and continuing to play through that, makes me think she's town? If she was mafia it seems like those would be more of an issue.

I think I've made my scummy feelings about James and teacher pretty clear.

Meji Fan and TheGoldenParadox have not posted enough for me to get any read on. Feel free to post more at any time, you two.

PEdit:

Irrelaphant's first post being "Maybe this is the scumteam" pings me. Even I don't do that as town, which I am obviously shit at. I can think of no reason why something like that, and then Elephant's next thought being "But it's probably wrong" comes from town at all.

But maybe that 's just me.

I've been thinking of scum teams already, too. After reading teacher's analysis the first time, I thought it might be you and Nauci. But, my reads changed before I posted again, so it wasn't worth mentioning. It's barely worth mentioning now, except to say that I don't think that having a scum team theory is scummy.

James:

Why does changing my playstyle entail policy lynching and potentially throwing the game? In fact, why would town care so much about posting style of this form at all? This is a discussion for outside the game, not something to lynch over, and I don't like the fact that you continue to defend it so vehemently. But for your and other's sakes, I'll just underline my comments on others posts from now on.

Thank you - I appreciate the change (even if others have noted continued issues). I don't want to keep talking about this, so this is going to be my last comment, but I foresaw a long game full of the annoyance of reading your posts, and I figured, at worst, town could afford one early mislynch if it meant a better reading experience going forward.

This is freaking insane. Town should never shoot for a mislynch that gives them no information. That's just stupid; how are you going to catch scum if you lynch for no info, esp. that early? This is a blatant attempt to make a very scummy action (getting a mislynch) look less scummy.

Going to cover a few things here: A) Scum will be confident in a bad read on a few occasions, but only if they are for sure going to get away with a lynch, imo. Why would scum have such extreme confidence in a read that has literally no chance of getting lynched at that point? B) Argument from probability. Just because something is possible doesn't make any of my points less valid.

A) I think scum are more likely to be confident, regardless of circumstance, because they actually are more confident. It doesn't seem like a great idea to express that confidence, but maybe that was a slip. B) Even if your points were ironclad, my issue was that your confidence was suspect, given the silence from so many slots.

Nobody seems eager to follow my James vote, so I'm finally confident enough to put my vote here.

You should not be voting just to get others to follow you. Maybe that's not your intention, but it sure is what it reads like.

It's not that I wanted/needed others to follow me, just that - like Nauci said - I felt my vote was better served to double hers up and put more pressure on teacher rather than being the only one on you. Given teacher's posts after that, I feel like it was worth it.

Rereading your post, there's no way that's your intention. There's no mention of Nauci in that post, or adding pressure. This is bull.

Neither do I in some situations. But the timing of it, the doubt of it, and the lack of hunting before pings me. He went from "Oh, I'm not really doing anything" to "Possible scumteam." It honestly feels like he's trying to set one or both of us up for a fall.

Looking at the ISO, I don't think it was that severe a progression. It's more, "Hey," to, "Here's some thoughts and questions," to, "Oh! What if..."

Irrelephant:

My inclination is to say James vs. Thor is either scum vs. town or town vs. town, because if Thor is scum I feel like it would make more sense to push James' mislynch rather than keeping his vote on Nauci.

How does Thor's new vote for JB change this perspective?

It doesn't, really - in fact, it seems like bad scum play for him to move his vote to James after I pointed how doing so could be scummy.

Everybody else:

I'll move back to voting James if that's the consensus lynch we can get, but for now I'd like to get teacher today and see what tomorrow brings. Unless something drastically changes, I'd rather not move my vote otherwise. In particular, I thought about sheeping Nauci and voting TGP, but teacher's also on TGP and I don't want to be on a wagon with my current strongest scum read.

-hella sussing TGP for 98. feels like pocketing me plus misusing my point about ic stuff to FOS Thor with made up grounds

Potentially dumb newbie question: What does pocketing mean? I can't find it in the MS Wiki or through Google.

Flicker - I like his rebuttals and dig his posts. I get a good town vibe from him based off his interactions and I think his reads on other players make sense mostly. Only disagreement I have is labeling Teacher as TTTBT.

*Her, thanks.

I didn't say he's TTTBT (assuming this means "too town to be town"). I said he seems like scum (unsuccessfully) trying to look town. Although, honestly, I don't know what would qualify as TTTBT. "You're helping town too much, you must be scum" seems like bad logic. Unless I just don't know what TTTBT means, either.

DDS - Dirt Bag.

I like this post - a lot of your reactions are similar to mine, especially to teacher's "lying" (the first time I read that, I freaked out, too). Overall, putting you back in my town-lean pile.

PEdit: That's a lot of scum and not nearly enough town, James. You're not helping your case here.

A) Okay, so I lose my confidence, but I'm still scummy? What the literal frick? That makes NO sense to me.
B) It looks like you're both sucking up to DDS and looking for town cred in this interaction with him.

(Posting this without any links because I drafted this quickly and my internet's been on the fritz, sorry y'all.)

James:

Re: 143 - I guess what I should have said was that I could follow teacher's argument and would have (barely) accepted the read if it came from town? Like, if Irrelephant had said it instead, I would have gone, "eh, okay?" I don't think it's a great line of logic (note the ellipses before "fine" in both cases), which makes it questionable coming from a scum-read.

Not Known:

Other than your read on me, I generally like your posts so far. Gonna gently shuffle you towards my town read pile.

A) So you're telling me that that post, coming from town, is fine, but coming from scum, is not? That makes loads of sense; how is something indicative one way if one persons says it, but the other way if the other person says it?
B) This is subtle buddying. It reads like you are trying to remind your scumbuddy that you're their scumbuddy.

Oxy:

My read on James - overly confident, has an odd read list that's heavily lopsided towards scum (post #131), and re-skimming his ISO, it seems like he's trying to build up his own authority while tearing down others' (e.g. in post #85, when he says "I can't believe I'm saying this, but this counts as discussing ongoing games" re: Thor hinting at playing another game with Nauci, when it seems like the mod only called out DDS for it) (there's also been a couple comments directed at me with an air of "take my advice, I know what I'm talking about").

What the heck is this supposed to mean?

"If teacher won't," given his reluctance. It made sense initially, but now it strikes me as a little too concerned or accommodating.

And now we start paying attention to appearances once pressure is on.

His continued expressions of reluctance made me realize that my (similar) reluctance no longer made sense. So, I'm frustrated with him, myself, and the game in general - it feels like we're in a weird, in-between space where the day is basically over except for the actual lynch.

I've seen plenty of wagons fall apart at L-1. Trying to force the day to be over helps no one.

@Oxy: You make a good point about the lack of arguments (or counter-wagons pushed) against James' lynch. Would you like me to unvote? I'd also consider switching my vote to where you are, if you weren't voting for me.

My preferred lynch pool today includes You, Meji, and Nauci. In that order.

Welp. The only one on that list I'd be okay with lynching is Meji.

Also, I noticed you didn't answer my most pressing question, so I'll repeat it here:

Do you want me to unvote/switch my vote off James?

YES. HE does, he's telling you he wants you to move your vote btween one of those three. But you won't move your vote.

In summary: I find Flicker scummy because of her interest in the early policy lynch and her terrible defense of it, her hypocrisy on confidence and appearance, and apparent attempts to gain town cred.

[James Brafin]

If he flips scum Flicker partner makes a lot of sense.

Gonna think about it over dinner, but I might be the hammer tonight

Really, I attack my partner that hard?

[James Brafin]

In post 214, James Brafin wrote:

I waffled on Thor for two reasons:
1) My vote was helping no one where it was. It was just as untownie to leave it on a useless wagon, when I could be helping town.
2) Other than his "opinions as fact" stuff, there's really not that much hard evidence against Thor on a reread. I got Confbiased on him tho and voted him anyways. I'm beginning to lean town for him now.

1) Except that you did replace it with an unvote. How does an unvote help town more than a vote?

It's better than a random vote with no other information. I hadn't scumhunted at all yet becasue I was so focused on Thor, so I didn't want to place my vote ina place where it would get town lynched or be of no real use.

random vote

Wrong answer.

UNVOTE:
Not comfortable enough to put it somewhere else though.

I'm reading Nauci as town-lean Elephant and Thor as scum-lean, and all else as null atm,

Thor as scum-lean

This does not add up.

You can have a scumlean and not be completely confident in it or confident enough in it to vote on it. You were just as confident in that Flicker case, but look where your vote landed.

[mhsmith0]

Votecount 1.06

James Brafin (4)

Thor665 , Irrelephant11 , Not Known 15 , Flicker , L-1

teacher (1)

Nauci ,

Nauci (1)

Meji Fan ,

Meji Fan (2)

teacher , Oxy ,

Not Known 15 (1)

James Brafin ,

Day one deadline is Wednesday April 25th, 9 PM PST. (expired on 2018-04-25 21:00:00)

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch!

[/size]

[Thor665]

Yes. I am also townreading Nauci. Irrelaphant & you, and nullreading thor.

Since you null read me, I'd love you to answer my question to you;
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10122662
It would be more helpful to me than you skimming and claiming you're not 'backing down' from a position I'm not even fully sure what it is, nor who is asking you to back down from it.

@James - third time's the charm?

[James Brafin]

Gonna return to this bullshit post, if you don't mind.

Then, he's sheeping Oxy's EXISTENT case on flicker, but he votes me.

Sheeping something means that I'd be happy to follow that path and basically agree on a case without having any other arguments. Not that I have to vote for it if I have a stronger scumread.

Why is your scumread stronger on me than Flicker?

Then we have a tactic change, and he goes at me with a chainsaw against DDS.

A chainsaw in itself is null.

Chainsaw Defense: The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum". From the wiki. So THAT's bullshit.

A) Let's make something very clear:

WHEN YOU SAY SOMEONE DOES SOMETHING FOR ONE REASON, AND THEY DIDN'T, THAT IS A MISREP.

I was never trying to be annoying, I never phrased my words to make it look like I was trying to be annoying.

So yes, it was a misrep, and an AoP to boot. And since when is annoying town anti-town? I have played with town that made me rage (mulch) but they were still town.

If you wouldn't have already claimed scum, I'd ask you to be more precise about what exactly the misrep is.

It's IN THE FREAKING POST. Jeez.

B) It brings in irrelevant personal information or arguments about the opponent, in an attempt to distract either the opponent or the audience. (From the wiki)
An AoP is ALWAYS scummy, because it tries to make other players look bad based on outside information not relevant to the game.

Except that information is very relevant to the game. The mood state of a player is very valuable information. And it is also not irrelevant when something irritates someone, or hinders their reads. It looks to me like "stop this plz it disrupts the game" and that is valid to say.

Let me get this straight:
It's okay for someone to tell someone they can't post in a certain way because "it's annoying?"

C) No one has continued on the topic of IC strategies. since the first page. Where the frick is this coming from? That is NOT my argument.

This is not true:

Gamechanging =/= we should care. We can't actually glean anything from daychat. We can't glean anything from multiball. I personally think that we shouldn't care about that as town.
But that's just my opinion.

I'm sorry, how is A) this discussion of IC strat and B) not still at the beginning of the game?

D) If he understood that, why did he not move his vote?

No idea- unfortunately we cannot ask them now. However, it was not their only reason for voting Teacher, and they said it was a placeholder.

Then what were his other reasons for voting Teacher? Because I sure as heck don't see them.

I want this lynched so bad it's not even funny.


But my scumread on NK15 is so hard it's not even funny. Consider it a death tunnel.
As For flicker, her play isn't any better and then she goes and associates herself with NK15, gets friendly with them, and encourages them. It reads to me as a reminder from NK15's scumbuddy that he's still here and not to vote him. Because honestly, what town wants to be friends with an ABN, chainsaw-defending, bad-argument slot? Combined with the fact that NK voted for

me

with no case on them instead of

Flicker

with a decent case on them, I think I know where our scumteam is.

VOTE: NK15

And watch the flak come in for changing my vote again. But there will be no misrep or confusion on why I did it this time.

Yeah I am not confused why. You want to eliminate strong town.

that's a bold and reachy assumption considering this is your SECOND POST. This is flaily and looking to try and avoid my arguments.

Just to put the question out there, because I found it suspect, @NK - why did you pressure to L-1 half-way through the day?

It is usually not a good idea to wait until the end for L-1. Also, I thought that Brafin would need more pressure.
In a semi-open, especially, you don't want to wait too long. You need a buffer in the case that the lynch target claims a power role.
You don't lynch a uncounterclaimed power role Day 1. If you wait too long then the lynch against someone else will be rushed, especially because you need to clarify if anyone has a CC. And then there are replacements. This can easily take some days alone.

WHAT unCCed claim? WHY did you think I would claim one against your bullshit case? WHAT pressure did you add? L-2 and L-1 don't scare me none, and anyone can iso my games to find that out.

[James Brafin]

Yes. I am also townreading Nauci. Irrelaphant & you, and nullreading thor.

Since you null read me, I'd love you to answer my question to you;
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p10122662
It would be more helpful to me than you skimming and claiming you're not 'backing down' from a position I'm not even fully sure what it is, nor who is asking you to back down from it.

@James - third time's the charm?

Gladly, as I've said, I was busy. If anyone else has a question or two, let me know.

Because he doesn't make a gut read, then defend it. He makes a post and votes me (i.e. accuses me of being scum) But when he's confronted, THEN he builds his case, which I just tore through in my previous post. Town doesn't have to make an accusation and then build a case. Town has a gut read, builds their case, then votes. That's the problem here; NK15 votes, then builds his case.

[Thor665]

How do you know he built the case only after being asked to?

[James Brafin]

Oxy: Yes.

Nauci: I am afraid, good lady, that we are never going to get along.

Do you think that Nauci is the only person who scum hunts by first getting a gut read, and then building a case?

I'm not arguing as to effectiveness, but I think a lot of people probably build cases that way regardless of their alignment.

Or do you specifically believe that NK15 would not build a case that way as town?

This is the part you all seem to be missing. THERE IS NO GUT READ. He comes in with a full-fledged attack, then builds his case. once he does that, he automatically assumes everything that comes from my mouth is scummy, i.e. "you're scum, so everything you say is scummy." i.e. ORLYScum.

[James Brafin]

Am I making a bad assumption? Is scum more likely to come out of the gate arguing that the IC is abusing his position as a way of furthering his scum!IC win con?

Yes. It is easy to make a case about that. Very easy. You just need to discredit the advice.

And. let me ask you, WHY would scum try something that blatant.

[James Brafin]

Except that you did replace it with an unvote. How does an unvote help town more than a vote?

I'd also like to point out this is a loaded question. If my unvote does not help town more, aha, scum. If it does, however, I'm trying to look like town, aha, scum. Either way, I'm scum.

So let me put it this way: If I unvote, it does not help scum wincon, because it makes me look wishy-washy. But if I leave my vote or shift it to someone else, it does not help scum wincon, becasue there was no viable wagon to join onto and my Thor tunnel was getting scum!me nowhere.

So, what is the advantage for scum!me to unvote, rather than to vote someone else or leave my vote?

[Thor665]

This is the part you all seem to be missing. THERE IS NO GUT READ. He comes in with a full-fledged attack, then builds his case. once he does that, he automatically assumes everything that comes from my mouth is scummy, i.e. "you're scum, so everything you say is scummy." i.e. ORLYScum.

So just to describe this without all caps to see if I understand it.

He attacks you (you claim he has no gut read to suspect you despite no evidence to support this stance).
You ask why is he attacking you.
He presents a case.
You call it scummy because he created the case after the attack (even though there is no reason town wouldn't do this, and indeed many town do - heck, I've done it in this game and you haven't mentioned me doing it yet. Frankly I think Oxy did it also)

Do I have that right?
Because it feels like even if you're onto something you're blowing it vastly out of proportion, yeah?

[Not Known 15]

Gonna return to this bullshit post, if you don't mind.

Then, he's sheeping Oxy's EXISTENT case on flicker, but he votes me.

Sheeping something means that I'd be happy to follow that path and basically agree on a case without having any other arguments. Not that I have to vote for it if I have a stronger scumread.

Why is your scumread stronger on me than Flicker?

Because of your vote/unvote/vote cycle on thor and your motivation behind it.

Then we have a tactic change, and he goes at me with a chainsaw against DDS.

A chainsaw in itself is null.

Chainsaw Defense: The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum". From the wiki. So THAT's bullshit.

The wiki is really outdated. And you should probably look at the whole part in the wiki, not just the first sentence.

A) Let's make something very clear:

WHEN YOU SAY SOMEONE DOES SOMETHING FOR ONE REASON, AND THEY DIDN'T, THAT IS A MISREP.

I was never trying to be annoying, I never phrased my words to make it look like I was trying to be annoying.

So yes, it was a misrep, and an AoP to boot. And since when is annoying town anti-town? I have played with town that made me rage (mulch) but they were still town.

If you wouldn't have already claimed scum, I'd ask you to be more precise about what exactly the misrep is.

It's IN THE FREAKING POST. Jeez.

B) It brings in irrelevant personal information or arguments about the opponent, in an attempt to distract either the opponent or the audience. (From the wiki)
An AoP is ALWAYS scummy, because it tries to make other players look bad based on outside information not relevant to the game.

Except that information is very relevant to the game. The mood state of a player is very valuable information. And it is also not irrelevant when something irritates someone, or hinders their reads. It looks to me like "stop this plz it disrupts the game" and that is valid to say.

Let me get this straight:
It's okay for someone to tell someone they can't post in a certain way because "it's annoying?"

Yes, of course.

C) No one has continued on the topic of IC strategies. since the first page. Where the frick is this coming from? That is NOT my argument.

This is not true:

Gamechanging =/= we should care. We can't actually glean anything from daychat. We can't glean anything from multiball. I personally think that we shouldn't care about that as town.
But that's just my opinion.

I'm sorry, how is A) this discussion of IC strat and B) not still at the beginning of the game?

A) It is, you are attacking one of Thor's game strategy answers.B) This is not the first page, it is page 4; you said the first page.

D) If he understood that, why did he not move his vote?

No idea- unfortunately we cannot ask them now. However, it was not their only reason for voting Teacher, and they said it was a placeholder.

Then what were his other reasons for voting Teacher? Because I sure as heck don't see them.

I want this lynched so bad it's not even funny.


But my scumread on NK15 is so hard it's not even funny. Consider it a death tunnel.
As For flicker, her play isn't any better and then she goes and associates herself with NK15, gets friendly with them, and encourages them. It reads to me as a reminder from NK15's scumbuddy that he's still here and not to vote him. Because honestly, what town wants to be friends with an ABN, chainsaw-defending, bad-argument slot? Combined with the fact that NK voted for

me

with no case on them instead of

Flicker

with a decent case on them, I think I know where our scumteam is.

VOTE: NK15

And watch the flak come in for changing my vote again. But there will be no misrep or confusion on why I did it this time.

Yeah I am not confused why. You want to eliminate strong town.

that's a bold and reachy assumption considering this is your SECOND POST. This is flaily and looking to try and avoid my arguments.

Maybe a bit bold yes. However, posting frequency is not equal to being bad town.

Just to put the question out there, because I found it suspect, @NK - why did you pressure to L-1 half-way through the day?

It is usually not a good idea to wait until the end for L-1. Also, I thought that Brafin would need more pressure.
In a semi-open, especially, you don't want to wait too long. You need a buffer in the case that the lynch target claims a power role.
You don't lynch a uncounterclaimed power role Day 1. If you wait too long then the lynch against someone else will be rushed, especially because you need to clarify if anyone has a CC. And then there are replacements. This can easily take some days alone.

WHAT unCCed claim? WHY did you think I would claim one against your bullshit case? WHAT pressure did you add? L-2 and L-1 don't scare me none, and anyone can iso my games to find that out.

1) My case isn't bullshit.
2)There was the possibility of a fakeclaim or a real claim.
3)

WHY did you think I would claim one against your bullshit case?

looks like a scumslip to me; JB thinks that they don't need to reinforce their position with a fakeclaim. And to answer this: No case without power role info is 100%; you have to factor in that you might be wrong. Lynching someone who is scummy yet a claim Day 1 is generally a bad idea unless someone counterclaims.

4) They don't scare you? I doubt that, you seem to be very defensive.

I'd also like to point out this is a loaded question. If my unvote does not help town more, aha, scum. If it does, however, I'm trying to look like town, aha, scum. Either way, I'm scum.

So let me put it this way: If I unvote, it does not help scum wincon, because it makes me look wishy-washy. But if I leave my vote or shift it to someone else, it does not help scum wincon, becasue there was no viable wagon to join onto and my Thor tunnel was getting scum!me nowhere.

So, what is the advantage for scum!me to unvote, rather than to vote someone else or leave my vote?

You answered it yourself:

becasue there was no viable wagon to join onto and my Thor tunnel was getting scum!me nowhere

If I unvote, it does not help scum wincon, because it makes me look wishy-washy.

Not all vote changes make you look wishy-washy. Lots of people vote and unvote. You gave an explanation for the unvote that you thought to be sufficient(but that was made up). You were caught. That's what happened.

If it does, however, I'm trying to look like town, aha, scum.

I never said that.

[teacher]

Gonna think about it over dinner, but I might be the hammer tonight

I hope you had an enjoyable dinner. I also hope you dont hammer tonight. To be honest, this is purely out of respect for elephant. When he came into the game, he announced that he would be v/la weekends. Tonight, he said he would reevaluate the ISO in the morning. As someone who will also miss most weekends (not this one, but most) due to family obligations, I know I would prefer to have the chance to read the weekend activities before a hammer came down. But I defer to you and will not blame you if you do hit the nail.

[James Brafin]

This is the part you all seem to be missing. THERE IS NO GUT READ. He comes in with a full-fledged attack, then builds his case. once he does that, he automatically assumes everything that comes from my mouth is scummy, i.e. "you're scum, so everything you say is scummy." i.e. ORLYScum.

So just to describe this without all caps to see if I understand it.

He attacks you (you claim he has no gut read to suspect you despite no evidence to support this stance).
You ask why is he attacking you.
He presents a case.
You call it scummy because he created the case after the attack (even though there is no reason town wouldn't do this, and indeed many town do - heck, I've done it in this game and you haven't mentioned me doing it yet. Frankly I think Oxy did it also)

Do I have that right?
Because it feels like even if you're onto something you're blowing it vastly out of proportion, yeah?

I'm not sure if I'm blowing it all out of proportion, but yeah, you have that right.
And I'd like to point out that his first post he comes in swinging with an accusation and a vote. There's no "Something's pinging me" or anything. So if I am using that term correctly, there cant have been a "gut read" because he didn't give himself the opportunity for one.

[James Brafin]

@everyone Here are some scummy things Flicker has posted so far. Please engage me on this read.

Spoiler:

Hey, all!

VOTE: James Brafin, partly as a policy lynch because of his posting style, partly because I don't like anyone who has that much confidence on a read this early.

I thought about sheeping Nauci's vote on teacher, but decided I don't feel comfortable sheeping anyone just yet. I do agree with her and Meji Fan that his vote is questionable. I also don't see how there's anything to like (or dislike) about RVS.

VOTE: teacher

Nobody seems eager to follow my James vote, so I'm finally confident enough to put my vote here.

Great. Now more people vote for James? Rude.

I'll move back to voting James if that's the consensus lynch we can get, but for now I'd like to get teacher today and see what tomorrow brings. Unless something drastically changes, I'd rather not move my vote otherwise. In particular, I thought about sheeping Nauci and voting TGP, but teacher's also on TGP and I don't want to be on a wagon with my current strongest scum read.

None of this makes sense from a town perspective. People are voting someone she is confident is scum, but she doesn't want to move her vote back there, but she considered moving her vote to someone completely different because sheeping.

A) I also read (and still do) Nauci as town.

Very last post called Nauci null and opined about the possibility of a Nauci scum team.

@NK15 you're telling me that THIS is less scummy than your one point about my vote/unvoting?

[teacher]

there cant have been a "gut read" because he didn't give himself the opportunity for one

I disagree. He had just come into the game. Presumably, the 3 suspect list came after he had read all of the posts. Thus, I view the list itself as the gutread. This is admittedly my supposition based on timing, but I dont see why its wrong.

[Flicker]

Thor & teacher: I appreciate the rules clarification.

My response to James' read on me is coming, it just depends on when my internet connection will cooperate long enough for me to post it. I'm not typing all that out on my phone; this post has been difficult enough.

[teacher]

His easy answer to that is 'you throw the game when you lynch people off playstyle instead of for reasons they are scum'.

I dont disagree at all. I just saw it as a potential soft, so wanted to flag when we got to L-1 because I didnt want a quick hammer. It clearly was not a soft. But I would still raise it, and will raise any other potential softs when wagons gain traction.

[Thor665]

And I'd like to point out that his first post he comes in swinging with an accusation and a vote. There's no "Something's pinging me" or anything. So if I am using that term correctly, there cant have been a "gut read" because he didn't give himself the opportunity for one.

I again note, how is that different from what you did with me?
Literally if you had voted me in your first post instead of announcing intent of attack it would basically have been literally exactly the same, yeah?
You would claim to have a town PM, yeah?
So why couldn't he just be quicker on a vote than you and otherwise be town?

[Not Known 15]

@everyone Here are some scummy things Flicker has posted so far. Please engage me on this read.

Spoiler:

Hey, all!

VOTE: James Brafin, partly as a policy lynch because of his posting style, partly because I don't like anyone who has that much confidence on a read this early.

I thought about sheeping Nauci's vote on teacher, but decided I don't feel comfortable sheeping anyone just yet. I do agree with her and Meji Fan that his vote is questionable. I also don't see how there's anything to like (or dislike) about RVS.

VOTE: teacher

Nobody seems eager to follow my James vote, so I'm finally confident enough to put my vote here.

Great. Now more people vote for James? Rude.

I'll move back to voting James if that's the consensus lynch we can get, but for now I'd like to get teacher today and see what tomorrow brings. Unless something drastically changes, I'd rather not move my vote otherwise. In particular, I thought about sheeping Nauci and voting TGP, but teacher's also on TGP and I don't want to be on a wagon with my current strongest scum read.

None of this makes sense from a town perspective. People are voting someone she is confident is scum, but she doesn't want to move her vote back there, but she considered moving her vote to someone completely different because sheeping.

A) I also read (and still do) Nauci as town.

Very last post called Nauci null and opined about the possibility of a Nauci scum team.

@NK15 you're telling me that THIS is less scummy than your one point about my vote/unvoting?

Your arguments are not good and lied about motivation and gave anti-meta(if you dont care about L-1 normally why do you care now?), so it is not just that one point(but that one point is important). And I have a bad feeling about you and your posts since the time I first looked at the thread. And will trust that.
Flicker is almost as scummy as you. But we should flip you first. Their refusal to vote you points to a possible JB/Flicker team.
There is another reason now why we should not lynch anyone but you: You claimed vanilla townie. If we bring other people to L-1 and a claim we just make PR hunting easier for scum.

I'd like to see some explanation for the vote pattern of flicker, though.

there cant have been a "gut read" because he didn't give himself the opportunity for one

I disagree. He had just come into the game. Presumably, the 3 suspect list came after he had read all of the posts. Thus, I view the list itself as the gutread. This is admittedly my supposition based on timing, but I dont see why its wrong.

This is correct.