Open 721: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[Oxy]

You didn't ask for more, you said I dodged your question about md in 494, and I gave you the post about my read in 539. I didn't dodge shit. And how much do you want on a read? I gave you a read on both mathdino the person and mathdino the player in this game for goodness sake.

Here are posts of yours with reasoning that I thought was bleh. And I agreed with him about your vote.

Spoiler:

Oxy seems more diplomatic in this game

oxy seems a lot less opinionated and that's worrying.

Is this AI though?

it might be. he has been agreeing with people and cracked a bad joke. don't remember him posting anything interesting just yet.

let it be known that you asked for it
i am not actually tunneling you as hard as the following is going to make it seem

I think 13p is the perfect size game (give or take)
welcome. hope you enjoy it here.

sheeping the first rvs wagon to L-2 with nothing but a "hi" post pings me as more likely scummy than null/towny. L-2 also lacks the accountability of L-1 or even like a 2nd vote, it's a decent position for scum to be in.

idk if it were me I'd say something like "good wagon, evilduck must die (vote)" but that's not really the point.

I'm not lockscumming her ass and suggesting we lynch with fire but it's a great place to start

btw Math is super super heavily invested in the whole Mafia Discussion world and is incredibly sharp re. open setups. everything he says will be objectively correct or a highly educated opinion. but it's not alignment indicative.

1. game irrelevant comment

2. buddying newbies

3. overexplained version of "L-2 is often the scumspot on the wagon"

4. irrelevant sidenote

5. backs down from the scumread but justifies his vote as pro-town (i hate to say LAMIST but)

6. buddies me with correct knowledge of my gameplay

none of these things are scummy in themselves but the combination of all 6 and this many words without things that i think actually advance the gamestate makes me read it as
posturing?
LAMISTy?
busywork?
whatever term you use for "scum trying to act like town", that.

I agree with 2 and 5 but rest is a strech tbh

Answered inline

ruru is voting me because they townread you and I’m voting you. Thoughts regarding that very specific situation please.

I don't really want to speculate as to why she voted for you, as she was awfully sparse with her explanation in voting for you. Since you asked, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for her to think you're scumreading me (also see tw's question directed at you). ruru could be confused why you are scumreading someone she townreads. Additionally, neither ruru nor I were townreading you, yet you chose to single me out for doing so. I think this was genuine mistake on your part though, but she might have seen it differently.

I guess you can consider the following non-exhaustive list of points you can cover:

Is it a good vote?

I think she thinks it's a productive use of her vote. For relatively inexperienced players, I believe trying to find the motivation behind what they do is more important than what I think they should be doing with her vote. I elaborated on possible motivations above ^.

But to answer your question at face value, I think she should be voting for Mohab or AP or someone who hasn't bothered to talk in game

Will it progress reads on me and/or ruru?

See answer above. This also depends on her successive questioning and her ability to suss people out by engaging with them. I think that is a high ask for someone who is most likely playing her first game as town.

In summary, this, in addition to what I wrote earlier about her being more proactive this game, is why I am townreading her still. Have I answered your questions?

@other duckie, let him question me first.

This is super overexplained for no reason. I don't like that he suggests ruru should be going after lurkers.

I would expect him to be showing this tone more.
Yeah, he is really passive.

[ruru]

Hmm, I just skimmed Oxy in 1859 to re-evaluate the LAMIST thing

I'm not really seeing it

Some notes:
0. Wow I got used to this Oxy and that Oxy is more different than I remembered
1. eth0s called him a likely NK relatively early D1, but his posting style didn't change to try to seem more scummy
2. Md lead the game later D1 and obvtowned him, but his posting style didn't change to try to seem more scummy
3. He softed PR in such an obvious way that during the game, as scum, I had a hard time believing he wasn't bluffing specifically to draw the NK as VT. This is pretty much the opposite of trying to get more people to scumread him to avoid the NK

[ruru]

i know you know it already but self-voting is never pro-town.
also what's your test's result?

I don't know. Maybe it was just poor play. I thought it was OK because I'm not getting lynched, but also AP could reasonably predict that I'm not getting lynched, so...

It's the kind of thing where certain responses could be really incriminating, but his wasn't. I don't think agreeing to it makes him not scum though.

I was really hoping to catch him without time to think, so I posted impulsively

I still find his later explanations or lack thereof scummy

[ruru]

If there's actually interest, I think I prefer an Oxy wagon to a Draynth wagon at this point

[ruru]

VOTE: Oxy

[ruru]

Vig shot count

ofrhz (4)

: Mathdino, Oxy, pinturicchio, UglyDuck

UglyDuck (1)

: AP

Mohab500 (2)

: ruru, the worst

Draynth (1)

: ofrhz

Not Voting (5)

: Draynth, Sunshine13, Mohab500, skitter30, Scioness Sajj

[Oxy]

tbh, I could see all 4 of those people being lynched tomorrow, so all of those are good vig shots.

[pinturicchio]

VOTE: Oxy let's do this

[ruru]

Okay so about the vig thing

I'd like to propose the following procedure

1. Someone reaches L-1/intent. In the event of a quickhammer, the hammerer becomes the vig shot
2. They claim. If we don't want to lynch anymore, go back to step 1
3. Probably we unvote, in case of "accidents"
4. Someone reaches V-1/intent
5. They claim. If we don't want to vig anymore, go back to step 4
6. Any random majority players who are around lynch the earlier majority decision (which should be considered final barring exceptional circumstances like an investigative result from the V-1 claim) and end the day. VCA generally based on the original vote, not this one

The reason I propose the first lynch vote should generally be final is that I suspect scum could abuse the system to PR hunt otherwise

So I think it's better if there's no "I changed my mind"

[ofrhz]

I just realized Sunshine is V/LA I was lowkey wondering where he was and why he wasn't Spanish inquisition-ing people. Bumping him up a little bit

TW is ignoring my requests for scumreads/is still voting for Math. Can someone tell me if this is a typical TW thing?

Scioness's latest posts are kinda lackluster. Will elaborate why in upcoming posts.

Pin, Sunshine
TW, Scioness, AP, UD
Mohab500, Draynth

HURT: UglyDuck

[ofrhz]

@Mohab

- Echoing what other people have said, if you don't think you can play this game, I do think you should consider replacing out.

[the worst]

TW is ignoring my requests for scumreads/is still voting for Math. Can someone tell me if this is a typical TW thing?

What do you wanna know? Been mostly avoiding the thread a bit

[the worst]

i'm pretty sure NSG is on the replacement list right now so mohab replacing out would be hilariously pro-town

I just saw this but fuck yessss

Just notice I'll probably leave this game alone for a bit to let ppl weigh in. I hold some opinions in higher stead than others atm and need them around.

Also need a breather for self confbias check

Re stating

[Mohab500]

i'm pretty sure NSG is on the replacement list right now so mohab replacing out would be hilariously pro-town

Lmfao i forgot there was such thing as replacing out lmao

replace out

See ya when I am done with this exam shit boys

[pinturicchio]

[Oxy]

[pinturicchio]

Good luck, Mohab! Hope everything works out

[the worst]

All the best Mohab. Hope we get to play again under better circumstances.

[ofrhz]

@Scioness, in response to your posts:

Spoiler:

I was explaining to UD the bussing theory

But yeah I kinda get that tbh

lmao whoops vote me

I'll even self hammer

THIS ALSO DOES NOT COME FROM TOWN

I agree with this. I remember how ofrhz reacted to his wagon in 1859 and how it played out and this doesn't line up.

This wagon isn't at all comparable to the wagon in 1859. At this point, I think I had 3 votes on me (UD, Oxy, Md?); it takes 7 to lynch. In 1859, I was at L-1.
Aside from that difference, my reaction quoted here wasn't in response to the wagon on me. It was because I felt bad for doing something that might've been stupid and anti-town.

Almost all the reads seemed super generic / possibly faked

This makes sense.

This same reasoning is making me doubt my townread of Scioness. I don’t really see an issue with her rvs vote, but her reads were kinda vague even if I agreed with most of them.

could i get your thought process behind this? generic/faked =/= vague

Your readlist was both vague and generic.
Your readlist was 272 - the biggest thing that jumped out at me was your Oxy read. If he seems different to you, does he seem different in a scummy way? It doesn't seem like you really put that much thought into this and just offered up "Oxy seems different," and said it could be AI. It's lacking in nuance imo

ofrhz - thoughts on oxy?

I'm not sure at time of writing this, so lemme type out loud:
<Long bulleted list> I guess I'm tentatively townreading Oxy rn

not really feeling this
your point about 280 and 388 contradict themsleves unless you were just pointing it out (but why would you do that?)

No actually I don't think 280 and 388 contradict each other. In 388, I think Oxy was saying that Math holding back is pro-town. In 280, Mathdino explained why he was holding back. Anyway, laying it out helped me realize that Oxy's thought process made sense with respect to how he came about townreading and subsequently sheeping Math.

those are not bad reasons for townreading ruru but it seems lazy.

You say lazy, I say efficient. There are 12 people to sort, and I'm not going to spend time on someone who I very confidently think is town.

Yeah I think you guys have a point, but Oxy toned down his LAMIST in D2 of 1859. So I don't tthink scum!Oxy is more likely than town!Oxy to tone down LAMIST. I was more thinking from the angle of

him not being LAMIST-y helps people form better reads, which is pro-town

given how much town was dragged down by that in 1859.

why not?
also what do you think about the lamist stuff since you know it was designed to see him as scummy?

If you're asking why I think Oxy toning down LAMIST is more likely to come from town than scum, it is because Oxy stopped being LAMIST in 1859

as town

.
I think not doing LAMIST is pro-town, because of the reason in bold. I also don't think Oxy has been LAMIST-y in this game.

<snip>

I'm not really seeing this? Someone brought up that vig is anti-town because a vig could just mis-fire on town, so I was trying to get at an optimal vig play here.

I kinda feel like you're going after me for being an easier mislynch than ruru.
VOTE: UglyDuck call it omgus, idgaf

no clue what to think of this, the content as nothing to do with the vote.

This was my case against UglyDuck. I pointed out why several of his reads were bad in a scummy way. His readlist was scummy because 1) wow hedging and 2) UglyDuck probably thought I was an easy lynch and went to push for it based on really bad reasons.

do you think that Oxy is right about you being different?

This wasn't Oxy's point though. Oxy was saying that I am different this game

in a scummy way

. I think that's an important distinction. Anyway, no, I have not been different in a scummy way.

tl;dr Scioness is lacking a lot of nuance in her read of the game

p-edit: Good luck on your exams Mohab! Hope I get to play with you some other time.

[ofrhz]

TW is ignoring my requests for scumreads/is still voting for Math. Can someone tell me if this is a typical TW thing?

What do you wanna know? Been mostly avoiding the thread a bit

What are you worried about self-confbiasing? besides Math, do you have any good scumreads? also, why is your vote on Math? I thought you guys decided not to go at each other today.

My bad missed your earlier comment about stepping back. Tbh I think I should do the same.

[the worst]

I have to answer your questions from a biased POV.

Because I changed my mind when I realised how much sense it makes for scum!Math to tunnel me as a lategame lynch.

Oxy is a scumfuck. Draynth is shady (which is a shame because he's awesome). Otherwise LOTS of townreads.

But I am concerned I'm tunnelling Math too hard, and if I can townread him (or give benefit of the doubt here) I should. Having him in the game is inherently pro town, and if he's town he probably wins this tor us. I just don't like some of his stances today in a big way.

Other reason I am concerned about confbias--I will give townreads too easily for people based on their stances. If I'm wrong this means I run the risk of townblocking scum.

For example atm I am townreading the fuck out of skitter but I am passively aware of the fact scum!skitter pockets me here every time.

[Mathdino]

yo TW why would i not just pocket you as scum knowing that you have a tendency to omgus from newbie 1849

your perception of my scum strategy is just... not a good one

go read my scum threads to see my categorisation of players and who i try/don't try to pocket

[the worst]

Can you hmu with some references (posts are awesome if you have the time) & names of players?

This is part of what I intend to do while deep breathing

[Mathdino]

i'm not this invested in getting your singular vote off me

do what i do

go to my profile

ctrl+F "topics"

click all the ones that are scum/mafia PTs rather than dead threads/mod threads

profit

[the worst]

Ya but I am lazy

I'll get to it, who's better to vote?