Open 721: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[UglyDuck]

random thought:
In a scenario where Player A is Town and they are the majority for the Vig Shot -
a) If there is a Vig - Skum either can push the wagon on a player the field generally believes to be skummy, or they could push a different wagon knowing the vig will likely shoot Player A.
b) If there is not a Vig - Skum can either push the wagon on a player the field generally believes to be skummy, or they could push a different wagon hoping to Pursue player A on D2.

In a scenario where Player A is Skum and they are the majority for the Vig Shot -
a) If there is a Vig - Skum could either bus or counter wagon. But if they know there is a Vig and that their team mate is likely to be shot, why not bus for the town cred?
b) If there is not a Vig - Skum could bus or counter wagon. But since they know there is no Vig in this scenario, I still feel like they would bus because Player A would be the prime candidate tomorrow for a lynch and they would want town cred.

IDK, I am sure I am missing something that literally everyone will call me out on, but this has been my thought as of late.
Since our Vig Canidate did not get run up, it would dictate that whether there is or is not a Vig, that they are not Skum.

If there is a Vig, then they know it, then they push a different player and assume the Vig Shot Canidate gets killed a night.
If there is not a Vig, they know it, then they push another wagon to use the fact Player A is alive the next day against them.

This seems like an unbeatable situation - which makes me suspicious of whoever brought up the Vig (HURT) idea in the first place.

UNVOTE:

[UglyDuck]

@Past-me:

Go ahead and answer lol I don't have the energy

you got it, present-me

1. Pick the worst possible roles. Jailkeeper, tracker, Vig probably. No cop because I'm a natural cop target.
2. Insist through the whole game that there's an innocent child because any scumteam that chooses otherwise is idiotic.
3. Neverbus my buddies so tracker/jailkeeper don't fuck us over.
4. Shoot all the PRs, potentially mislynch the 3rd one by arguing that there must be an innocent child out there and jailkeeper is an easy fakeclaim.
5. Once it becomes clear that scum didn't take innocent child, argue I'm conftown because I make mechanically correct decisions.

1 bad vigshot and 2 mislynches puts us in 7p or 8p lylo. Win this.

But then I rolled town whoops

I don't think ugly is following the game very closely

interesting response.

[the worst]

random thought:
In a scenario where Player A is Town and they are the majority for the Vig Shot -
a) If there is a Vig - Skum either can push the wagon on a player the field generally believes to be skummy, or they could push a different wagon knowing the vig will likely shoot Player A.
b) If there is not a Vig - Skum can either push the wagon on a player the field generally believes to be skummy, or they could push a different wagon hoping to Pursue player A on D2.

In a scenario where Player A is Skum and they are the majority for the Vig Shot -
a) If there is a Vig - Skum could either bus or counter wagon. But if they know there is a Vig and that their team mate is likely to be shot, why not bus for the town cred?
b) If there is not a Vig - Skum could bus or counter wagon. But since they know there is no Vig in this scenario, I still feel like they would bus because Player A would be the prime candidate tomorrow for a lynch and they would want town cred.

IDK, I am sure I am missing something that literally everyone will call me out on, but this has been my thought as of late.
Since our Vig Canidate did not get run up, it would dictate that whether there is or is not a Vig, that they are not Skum.

If there is a Vig, then they know it, then they push a different player and assume the Vig Shot Canidate gets killed a night.
If there is not a Vig, they know it, then they push another wagon to use the fact Player A is alive the next day against them.

This seems like an unbeatable situation - which makes me suspicious of whoever brought up the Vig (HURT) idea in the first place.

UNVOTE:

no h8 because as far as optimal mechanics go I jump to assumptions which are..... probably good roughly 50% of the time but

we've already spoken about why the alternative is worse


stop WIFOMing

[the worst]

@Past-me:

Go ahead and answer lol I don't have the energy

you got it, present-me

1. Pick the worst possible roles. Jailkeeper, tracker, Vig probably. No cop because I'm a natural cop target.
2. Insist through the whole game that there's an innocent child because any scumteam that chooses otherwise is idiotic.
3. Neverbus my buddies so tracker/jailkeeper don't fuck us over.
4. Shoot all the PRs, potentially mislynch the 3rd one by arguing that there must be an innocent child out there and jailkeeper is an easy fakeclaim.
5. Once it becomes clear that scum didn't take innocent child, argue I'm conftown because I make mechanically correct decisions.

1 bad vigshot and 2 mislynches puts us in 7p or 8p lylo. Win this.

But then I rolled town whoops

I don't think ugly is following the game very closely

interesting response.

also WIFOM

[brassherald]

Votecount 1.16

Oxy(4)

~ skitter30(65), the worst(320), Draynth(43), Sunshine13(45)

Scioness Sajj(3)

~ Mathdino(188), ofrhz(131), AP(85)

Draynth(3)

~ northsidegal(82), Oxy(211), ruru(116)

UglyDuck(1)

~ pinturicchio(78)

Players dead:

Not Voting (2): UglyDuck(54), Scioness Sajj(74)

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-04-30 16:45:00)

MOD REMINDERS

Scioness Sajj is VLA until April 30, 2018.

[Scioness Sajj]

Your scumreads give me the impression that you guys are bussing each other. And I really don't have any reason to townread you or UD tbh

I'd really like to lynch either UD or Scioness today. In that order.

> prefers UD lynch over Scioness

> Mathdino votes Scioness

tfw

VOTE: Scioness Sajj

Just wanna point out that ofrhz was voting UD before MD changed his vote.

[Sunshine13]

@sunshine My vote being my voice is exactly why I put my vote where I did. Just because your vote is monotonous, does not mean others have to use it that way.

You sure seem to be confident that Draynth will flip town... Why is that?

I’d like you to answer your own question.

[Scioness Sajj]

wish I had more time for this

VOTE: ofrhz

more to follow

[Scioness Sajj]

@Scioness, in response to your posts:

I was explaining to UD the bussing theory

But yeah I kinda get that tbh

lmao whoops vote me

I'll even self hammer

THIS ALSO DOES NOT COME FROM TOWN

I agree with this. I remember how ofrhz reacted to his wagon in 1859 and how it played out and this doesn't line up.

This wagon isn't at all comparable to the wagon in 1859. At this point, I think I had 3 votes on me (UD, Oxy, Md?); it takes 7 to lynch. In 1859, I was at L-1.
Aside from that difference, my reaction quoted here wasn't in response to the wagon on me. It was because I felt bad for doing something that might've been stupid and anti-town.

???
Are you telling me that you wanted to hammer yourself out of the game, as town, because you have done something anti-town? And it has nothing to do with the wagon on you and nothing to do with ruru selfvoting few pages ago I bet. You've just made a joke response (lmao whoops vote me) because you have felt guilty for being bad townie and that bad townie also decided to redeem itself by another anti-town thing to do, that was already mentioned in the thread that it is indeed anti-town thing to do.

I think it is comparable, because last time when there was a wagon on you, you had to be talked into by one of your townreads to actually try to defend yourself, at L-1. Here you are prematurely offering to self-hammer that, now after explanation, has nothing to do with... anything? You just felt it was good idea to show us how much of a good townie you are that you'd take responsibility for those bad things you have done. But you aren't even sure if you actually did something wrong.

Not to mention that the selfvote post in itself has a joking vibe to it but you are very seriously defending it.

Almost all the reads seemed super generic / possibly faked

This makes sense.

This same reasoning is making me doubt my townread of Scioness. I don’t really see an issue with her rvs vote, but her reads were kinda vague even if I agreed with most of them.

could i get your thought process behind this? generic/faked =/= vague

Your readlist was both vague and generic.
Your readlist was 272 - the biggest thing that jumped out at me was your Oxy read. If he seems different to you, does he seem different in a scummy way? It doesn't seem like you really put that much thought into this and just offered up "Oxy seems different," and said it could be AI. It's lacking in nuance imo

I feel like you like to use buzzwords but you don't really think them through.

1. Does posting some lose thoughts on page 10 is alignment indicative to you? (it was not a readlist btw, I didn't have one at that time, I still really don't lol)
2. I think you have forgotten to update your read on this or just got your timeline wrong because I have explained to you what I think about Oxy being different but you never commented on it yet you are using it as an argument for your read in 441 and my post explaining Oxy was 500-something.
3. What nuance did you expect from my answers about Oxy being different than in our previous game?

ofrhz - thoughts on oxy?

I'm not sure at time of writing this, so lemme type out loud:
<Long bulleted list> I guess I'm tentatively townreading Oxy rn

not really feeling this
your point about 280 and 388 contradict themsleves unless you were just pointing it out (but why would you do that?)

No actually I don't think 280 and 388 contradict each other. In 388, I think Oxy was saying that Math holding back is pro-town. In 280, Mathdino explained why he was holding back. Anyway, laying it out helped me realize that Oxy's thought process made sense with respect to how he came about townreading and subsequently sheeping Math.

They did, I think. In 280 you have quoted MD (in your Oxy read?) and said that Oxy's townreading MD for that post and you agree with that reason for a townread. It's a pattern for you that agree with something == townreading it or the person, so to my understanding it means that you were already at that point townreading Oxy for it but then few bullet points later you have said:

[Oxy townreading Mathdino for holding back]: I think multiple people have brought up why this logic for doesn't make sense. I'd like to see Oxy follow up with this before passing judgment.

First you agreed with Oyx's point (who knows if that was alignment indicative since you didn't mention it), but then you take step back because you see that people aren't agreeing with it.
You do sheep a lot this game, you didn't sheep at all in 1895.

those are not bad reasons for townreading ruru but it seems lazy.

You say lazy, I say efficient. There are 12 people to sort, and I'm not going to spend time on someone who I very confidently think is town.

Let's talk about surface level, shall we?
My comment on your ruru read was wrong. You have made three fairly in depth explained bullet points, you have also included a quote from last game and offered to look for more. You have had a good reason to scumread me for misrepping you here, but you decided to defend instead. You also arguemnt it with saying that you won't spent time on someone you are confident in townreading but in the orginal readlist you have offered to do so

Yeah I think you guys have a point, but Oxy toned down his LAMIST in D2 of 1859. So I don't tthink scum!Oxy is more likely than town!Oxy to tone down LAMIST. I was more thinking from the angle of

him not being LAMIST-y helps people form better reads, which is pro-town

given how much town was dragged down by that in 1859.

why not?
also what do you think about the lamist stuff since you know it was designed to see him as scummy?

If you're asking why I think Oxy toning down LAMIST is more likely to come from town than scum, it is because Oxy stopped being LAMIST in 1859

as town

.
I think not doing LAMIST is pro-town, because of the reason in bold. I also don't think Oxy has been LAMIST-y in this game.

why not? = why is town!Oxy more likely to tone down that LAMIST thing?
You have dodge my question so: also what do you think about the lamist stuff since you know it was designed to see him as scummy?

<snip>

I'm not really seeing this? Someone brought up that vig is anti-town because a vig could just mis-fire on town, so I was trying to get at an optimal vig play here.

I kinda feel like you're going after me for being an easier mislynch than ruru.
VOTE: UglyDuck call it omgus, idgaf

no clue what to think of this, the content as nothing to do with the vote.

This was my case against UglyDuck. I pointed out why several of his reads were bad in a scummy way. His readlist was scummy because 1) wow hedging and 2) UglyDuck probably thought I was an easy lynch and went to push for it based on really bad reasons.

Your 1st point was an observation and a question. Your 2nd point was 'a lot of hedging' and you've bolded where UD has explained why he has Pin in null category and explained what makes UD think pintu is scummy. In your 3rd point, you have disagreed that ruru has any previous experience. In your 4th point, you disagree with him again. None of those explain your why you think those things come from scum nor is it actually a case against UD. Your hedging argument is really meh and in the end, you have called the whole thing omgus. Calling your case against someone omgus is a convenient way to dodge responsibility for your vote and explain weak arguments.

do you think that Oxy is right about you being different?

This wasn't Oxy's point though. Oxy was saying that I am different this game

in a scummy way

. I think that's an important distinction. Anyway, no, I have not been different in a scummy way.

tl;dr Scioness is lacking a lot of nuance in her read of the game

It is not an important distinction per se, it is also nice dodge of my question and an important point to make to justify your Oxy read.
I asked if Oxy is right about being different, you do agree that you play differently but you don't agree that you are scummy.
You think that answering my question directly will make you look scummy and you also want to avoid being called out on your Oxy's read.

meh, that 'nuance' thing, it's a weak read and you wrote a lot of words to make it look serious but none of those words actually explain what 'nuance' you are expecting from me. I mean you do expect some things from me but what do you expect?, you also called me scummy for the exact things you have called me scummy in 1859.
A lot of words, a lot of shading and in the end you are hiding behind MD's vote.

You can answer the questions, but I won't be here to replay and I'm not changing my vote so you can as well assume they are rhetoric.
(thanks for making this post a pain to answer to btw)

[Mathdino]

are we already getting to that part of the game that i don't really want to read

consolidate wagons, people

your options are draynth and scioness, and if you want to have shit reads, oxy

we're not lynching ofrhz because we're vigging him

This seems like an unbeatable situation - which makes me suspicious of whoever brought up the Vig (HURT) idea in the first place.

hello
that was me
i've set a precedent for doing it in another game
for which i caught flak because towns are dumb
voting on who to vig is neither anti-town nor scum-indicative
please do something useful

[Oxy]

@sunshine My vote being my voice is exactly why I put my vote where I did. Just because your vote is monotonous, does not mean others have to use it that way.

You sure seem to be confident that Draynth will flip town... Why is that?

I’d like you to answer your own question.

This is a two way street, mate. You're not a detective in an interrogation room who gets to say, "I ask the questions around here!"

[ofrhz]

Will Scioness have time to claim if we wagon her

[ofrhz]

^shes v/la until Monday I think

[Scioness Sajj]

Will Scioness have time to claim if we wagon her

yes I am, not feeling so eager to wagon me anymore?
VOTE: ofrhz

[ofrhz]

if you weren’t here to claim, a wagon on you means we would have to lynch without a claim before the deadline

But since you will be here, I’m fine with my vote

[Mathdino]

wait we have 3 days what the hell guys
this did not feel like a 62 page game

[Scioness Sajj]

yes I am was to the v/la thing. I won't most likely be here.

but I also wouldn't be claiming so w/e, not my point about your post at all.

[AP]

Brass already set it up, you do it

SNIP

Don't ask for PMs about this game. Talk about this game only in threads made by myself.

[AP]

Brass already set it up, you do it

SNIP

Don't ask for PMs about this game. Talk about this game only in threads made by myself.

[Mathdino]

i'd rather not PM you given that it refers to this game

click on this link

copy paste "f=51&t=75972" into "thread shortened"
then type "0" for "postNumber"

mathblade wrote a guide somewhere in the MD

[Scioness Sajj]

1255 - This post was a "why is this person still playing a game that he has replaced out of?" He was asking the mod about a game rule, which applies to everyone, regardless of alignment. It's like when Mohab came in and kept posting after he was replaced out, some people said "wtf stop posting in this game," and those posts aren't AI either imo. They're just getting everyone on the same page with the rules. Is there something scummy about how UD asked about game rules?

Sure he was. The thing is:
1). the whole thing was already explained before UD get into the thread.
2). he is not really a shitposter/high activity person.
3). he used it to mention how new he is to the game.
And that 3rd point is what's important imo, because that's the kind of thing that was pinging me about ruru in 1859. When she used your post to remind people how new she was to the game (or was that my post?). It's a subconscious thing i.e. - people are reading me as a noob so they are more likely to forgive me my 'mistakes' so I will use this as an opportunity to remind me why they should believe I'm just a clueless noob.

Uh, you said Sunshine was "had some good effort early but sort of disappeared," so I feel like him going V/LA and needing to catch up would have something to do with his presence (or relative lack of) in the game. I don't know why you brought up Sunshine being upset; Sunshine hasn't used his anger at UD as an excuse to not play the game. He has said multiple times that he is rereading the game. I don't think town!Scioness would say that being inactive and needing to catch up is scum indicative.

There should be 'it' before 'sort of' and that would also make more sense probably but I have never said I scumread Sunsine for activity, I was talking about how the quality of his content dropped.

Don't you even start with the town!scioness thing when you are trying to push me for the same thing you were scumreading me in 1859.

How was Oxy's TW tunnel different from his tunnel on me? What aspects of his tw tunnel make you think he was town?

Don't have time to write in depth explanation here so I will just bold things to make me believe that it is standard death tunnel by oxy.

Whether or not it was AI for you to consciously/sub-consciously avoid talking to your scum partner directly will come out in post game.

I don't think you can help talking to people as town, so yeah, I think it was AI.

I also think you're playing scummy af.

You've been trying to derail a perfectly pro-town plan for the vig shot

You've been throwing shade at people like dino without reasoning

You reacted to my case on you by saying "I'm going to have to process this"

but

I think town you gets a little bit angrier when someone makes a case against you that you consider bad.

Don't you think, Dino? Don't answer that.

but your case on me?

Your case on me is that the massive amount of effort I put into this game resulted in a "useless" statistic

And that I'm pocketing mathdino

And that I'm a scumbutt.

So which case is really more nonsensical?

Town win by finding scum not by asking the 4th player on their wagon to re case them

Are you number 4? What a comfy position for scum to be in, amirite?

This post definitely doesn't sound like you're anxious to take ownership of my lynch.

town lean is a town read you fool

And I just said the worst is probably the only scum voting me

but skitter tunnel feels precisely like last game, and I think she's town. And I'm pretty sure math is town

so in a world of 2 on my wagon, you were the only one left??

Also, WTF. I'm being voted on by 2 people for being too different from last game, and one person for being too similar? am I a fucking rorshach test?

@the worst -

I think the timing was bad mannered, but mohab just got bullied out of this game because people like NSG more, so I wouldn't have blamed them if they posted their role pm as a big fuck you. basically, it's NAI.

More after this conference call

I think the 'town lean is a town read you fool' at pintu is the most indicative of town!oxy here. He called pintu a fool for saying that oxy gave him a townlean instead of townread. Don't think Oxy is faking a frustration here.
The other bolded are trademarks of town!oxy tunneling.

[AP]

1- I wasn't referring to THIS game. I wanted to know how not to get an error in general
2- I didn't mean to PM me now. I assumed it goes without saying that it would be post-game

[AP]

Here's an example: The game f=23&t=74375 has long ended.

When I put f=23&t=74375 and set the postNumber on 0 (or anything else) I get:

Could not read vote counter settings. Helpful message: Value cannot be null. Parameter name: Could not find vote counter settings. Check spoiler tag name.

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: VoteCount Settings

priorVCNumber=0
url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=75972
playerList=AP{Austin Powers},Mathdino,the worst{Duck},Draynth,Sunshine13,UglyDuck,Mohab500,Oxy,skitter30,pinturicchio,Scioness Sajj,ofrhz,ruru
replacementList=Mohab500:northsidegal{nsg}
moderatorNames=brassherald
dayStartNumbers=2
cleanDay=true
deadline=2018-04-30 16:45:00 -4.00
deadList=
voteOverrides=

Code: Select all

[spoiler=Day 1][/spoiler]

that would be because you need to have properly formatted votecount settings with updated nightkills and daystarts in the thread that you're trying to scan

[brassherald]

I can confirm that using the votecount settings that Mathdino originally posted and I have been keeping up to date, Mathblade's scrubber still works