Fallout Mafia - Commonwealth Edition (Day 8)

[Ramcius]

Also, to mostly RC because I feel like he would know best, but I guess anyone can chime in. In this sized game, what's the general ratio of town to scum, assuming no multiball?

14 v 4 i'd say, maybe 13 v 4 v 1, if GiF decided put some neutral for good measure

[hebichan]

Wait, keade, WHY, you literally cracked under no pressure.

Okay, from now on no more claims....

[MariaR]

dw guys I'm sure claiming outloud like this is going to help us

[Ankamius]

This looks like one of those games where I'll read through and realize I have reads on two slots.

[wilky]

@MariaR

What's your read/opinion on Ramcius right now? You seem to have played with them before but you popped in with the Nero vote and haven't commented on Ram's actions and wagon.

I haven't commented on Ram on purpose. I rather not speak on Ram atm if a wagon keeps going I'll comment but for now I rather shut up about him due to my own reasons.

How do people feel about Alch? I don't think I'm bias tring that slot. (seems rather obv town) but some people have said he's scummy so I want to know where that came from

This might be far fetched, and generally i'm not a fan of partner hunting pre flip, but these quotes just really don't sit right with me. I feel the withholding on ram is too obvious to show a partnership of scum!ram and scum!maria but I don't have experience with Maria to know how well her scum game is anyone else played with her before?

The second quote is the one that really irks me though, coming in and asking about a specific player. I'd put my neck on the line now and say IF there was a Maria scumflip then Alch would most likely be scum too.

Sure, that's true, but given all that like we got Willy to l2 almost effortlessly and this Ramcius push has gotten far less traction.

Why you comparing mine and Wilky wagons traction? He claimed miller in scummy manner, while what i did? Wanted someone else lynched? Voted myself to indicate how ridiculous i find this push "Ram is scummy"? I hear that in pretty much every game and should i make list of games, where i got ML'ed D1?

I want to counter this with the vote on me was scummy as i've already explained. How wagons build can be a good way to form reads through wagon analysis to. Granted wagon analysis isn't my strongest point though.

well, in my past large themes there wasn't, but i trust you on this

still, i'd prefer Tchill over Wilky, he came after both miller claims, so i feel it might be scum trying take advantage of miller claims

final answer
I would lean it a few percentage points towards it being his town meta although this result isn't especially conclusive
definitely enough to not want to lynch him today, yall can clusterfuck him later in the game when me and anony are gone if you want

@Ramcius???????????????????????????????????????????????????/
How the fuck is he scum trying to take advantage of miller claims in what way does claiming that as scum take advantage of miller claims?

Are you believe some weird hider claim that isn't weak? Or it's more likely scum trying smuggle in some fishy claim during confusion caused by millers and attracting less attention than it would get normally, and simultaneously getting protection form investigative roles?

It was these 2 posts that gave me the impression, but I do see where I missed the implied Wilky scumread in that first one.

UNVOTE:

Actually I don't see the implication of Scum!me in those posts at all. In the first post there was still very much a wagon on me and saying he preferred Tchill to me looks more to me like he prefers Tchill to the current wagon rather than Tchill to his second scum read (if that makes any sense i'm not sure i'm explaining it well).

The second post refers to both me and dave as "millers", not claimed millers, or claimed pr's or even claimed roles just simply "millers" which would imply he doesn't doubt either the claims.

Also, if the mod has done two town vigs in multiple games before the idea of him just randomly changing it up in this game sounds pretty far fetched to me.

why?

You really can't see that if a mod has history of two town millers before in multiple games that it's far more likely he'd do that again rather than throw in one town miller and one scum miller?

Wait, keade, WHY, you literally cracked under no pressure.

Okay, from now on no more claims....

QFT

[Ramcius]

well, in my past large themes there wasn't, but i trust you on this

still, i'd prefer Tchill over Wilky, he came after both miller claims, so i feel it might be scum trying take advantage of miller claims

final answer
I would lean it a few percentage points towards it being his town meta although this result isn't especially conclusive
definitely enough to not want to lynch him today, yall can clusterfuck him later in the game when me and anony are gone if you want

@Ramcius???????????????????????????????????????????????????/
How the fuck is he scum trying to take advantage of miller claims in what way does claiming that as scum take advantage of miller claims?

Are you believe some weird hider claim that isn't weak? Or it's more likely scum trying smuggle in some fishy claim during confusion caused by millers and attracting less attention than it would get normally, and simultaneously getting protection form investigative roles?

It was these 2 posts that gave me the impression, but I do see where I missed the implied Wilky scumread in that first one.

UNVOTE:

Actually I don't see the implication of Scum!me in those posts at all. In the first post there was still very much a wagon on me and saying he preferred Tchill to me looks more to me like he prefers Tchill to the current wagon rather than Tchill to his second scum read (if that makes any sense i'm not sure i'm explaining it well).

The second post refers to both me and dave as "millers", not claimed millers, or claimed pr's or even claimed roles just simply "millers" which would imply he doesn't doubt either the claims.

Oh boy, i don't think anyone believes there 2 scums in you, Dave and Tchill, so question is which one of you is scum? Dave is townread by majority, so i leave him out, as i did before, therefore it's you and Tchill. At this point i hope it's obvious, why you and Dave are millers, if Tchill is scum trying to use fuss caused by millers

[wilky]

well, in my past large themes there wasn't, but i trust you on this

still, i'd prefer Tchill over Wilky, he came after both miller claims, so i feel it might be scum trying take advantage of miller claims

final answer
I would lean it a few percentage points towards it being his town meta although this result isn't especially conclusive
definitely enough to not want to lynch him today, yall can clusterfuck him later in the game when me and anony are gone if you want

@Ramcius???????????????????????????????????????????????????/
How the fuck is he scum trying to take advantage of miller claims in what way does claiming that as scum take advantage of miller claims?

Are you believe some weird hider claim that isn't weak? Or it's more likely scum trying smuggle in some fishy claim during confusion caused by millers and attracting less attention than it would get normally, and simultaneously getting protection form investigative roles?

It was these 2 posts that gave me the impression, but I do see where I missed the implied Wilky scumread in that first one.

UNVOTE:

Actually I don't see the implication of Scum!me in those posts at all. In the first post there was still very much a wagon on me and saying he preferred Tchill to me looks more to me like he prefers Tchill to the current wagon rather than Tchill to his second scum read (if that makes any sense i'm not sure i'm explaining it well).

The second post refers to both me and dave as "millers", not claimed millers, or claimed pr's or even claimed roles just simply "millers" which would imply he doesn't doubt either the claims.

Oh boy, i don't think anyone believes there 2 scums in you, Dave and Tchill, so question is which one of you is scum? Dave is townread by majority, so i leave him out, as i did before, therefore it's you and Tchill. At this point i hope it's obvious, why you and Dave are millers, if Tchill is scum trying to use fuss caused by millers

So Dave being the townread one makes him the obvious town one? Let's put it another way then what if the ones who came out to defend Daves claim were his scumbuddies? (I'm not pushing Scum!dave here by the way just trying to piece together your decision making).

[Ramcius]

well, in my past large themes there wasn't, but i trust you on this

still, i'd prefer Tchill over Wilky, he came after both miller claims, so i feel it might be scum trying take advantage of miller claims

final answer
I would lean it a few percentage points towards it being his town meta although this result isn't especially conclusive
definitely enough to not want to lynch him today, yall can clusterfuck him later in the game when me and anony are gone if you want

@Ramcius???????????????????????????????????????????????????/
How the fuck is he scum trying to take advantage of miller claims in what way does claiming that as scum take advantage of miller claims?

Are you believe some weird hider claim that isn't weak? Or it's more likely scum trying smuggle in some fishy claim during confusion caused by millers and attracting less attention than it would get normally, and simultaneously getting protection form investigative roles?

It was these 2 posts that gave me the impression, but I do see where I missed the implied Wilky scumread in that first one.

UNVOTE:

Actually I don't see the implication of Scum!me in those posts at all. In the first post there was still very much a wagon on me and saying he preferred Tchill to me looks more to me like he prefers Tchill to the current wagon rather than Tchill to his second scum read (if that makes any sense i'm not sure i'm explaining it well).

The second post refers to both me and dave as "millers", not claimed millers, or claimed pr's or even claimed roles just simply "millers" which would imply he doesn't doubt either the claims.

Oh boy, i don't think anyone believes there 2 scums in you, Dave and Tchill, so question is which one of you is scum? Dave is townread by majority, so i leave him out, as i did before, therefore it's you and Tchill. At this point i hope it's obvious, why you and Dave are millers, if Tchill is scum trying to use fuss caused by millers

So Dave being the townread one makes him the obvious town one? Let's put it another way then what if the ones who came out to defend Daves claim were his scumbuddies? (I'm not pushing Scum!dave here by the way just trying to piece together your decision making).

Why would scumbuddies out themselves so early to defend scumbuddy, who took risky gambit?

[Dunnstral]

Fucking dunnstral

I don't think anyone has expressed that all of {TChill, Davesaz, and Wilky} are town.

I think they're all town

I stand corrected, then, and respectfully disagree.

Like I don't think tchill or davesaz fake claim here with that stuff, and then I don't think wilky comes in and counter claims miller

[Dunnstral]

OK I've thought pretty hard and long about this.

I don't see how my role could be a positive for town.

I'm hard claiming hider that can hide behind scum.

I'm hoping it's understandable why I would hard claim this day 1.

@Tchill can you hide behind millers? Or people that investigate as scum? Maybe pm the mod for clarification

[Alchemist21]

Wraith
Ankamius
Dunnstral
Impossibear
Ventriloquist
REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE

So, by the way, here is my issue with Ventriloquist vote right now. These slots all fall into the same "barely a blip on the RADAR" place.

I would like to see anything resembling actually playing the game from all these slots. Maybe Dunnstral does not belong on here.

very well. you got me. i'm not playing the game.

sit down. have a beer. chat with me. partner it's time to ride those horses and shoot some scumbags' matey!

Your posts do nothing to move the game state forward.

I'm almost inclined to say you would be a jester with how blatant you are being.

very well. you got me. i'm a jester.

Nameless Man can be town I guess

I was really hoping only jungle was nancy.

Do you want to have this fight?

FIGHT ME!!!1111!1!!!1

10/10 gif

[Alchemist21]

if this is new, it's town; if it's an alt, it's scum. unsure which rn.

Which slot were you referring to here?

[Impossibear]

ETL IS HERE! ♥

First - apologies for the late arrival. Didn't think it would start that quickly, and when it did I was away all weekend. Then I got a flat tire in the middle of nowhere and didn't have access to a computer all day yesterday. Back now. And here we goo..

Please don't skip reading these - I have a lot of discussion I missed and would like to engage with people about several posts, plus I put a lot of time and work into reading this game in-depth rather than skimming so...

Spoiler: ETL's responses pages 1-5

I actually like Alchemist thinking about the what-ifs and could-be's right away, especially for a player he seems to be familiar with.

VOTE: GiF

i'm pretty sure he's scum

This, however, is a total cop-out to avoid suspicion in RVS by not engaging an actual player. Do not like.

Not a fan of the lame back and forth between MariaR and Kaede. Looks really lame and kitschy.

it's more accurately an aversion to gambits as any alignment.
Not claiming miller as town would be a gambit on hoping to not be investigated.

So, does this mean the miller claim is frfr?

i believe they arent fake claiming miller, but that doesnt imply them being town and i'll just rely on day play or other methods to read them.
While on that subject, I think alchemist's use of meta to read dave wasnt scum motivated.

I do like this though, and I agree.

Trust other people? What is this blasphemy?

Another useless post from Ram

two town millers.

Not "two millers", two "town millers". Noted.

So it would be better that the one we think is more likely to be Town going second, so we can confirm or deny the first. But of course if both millers are telling the truth and think this same way, both would be hesitant to go first because they want to be able to confirm the other and could create a potential stalemate.

That's probably overthinking it but basically I still personally have more reason to believe your claim over Wilky's and would rather Wikly be required to claim flavor and you confirm/deny it.

Absolutely excellent critical thinking here. Alchemist is my first personal town read. However, I really liked the way Wilky came in right away and challenged dave - that kind of attitude sounds like it comes from town trying to catch someone in a lie they can verify. I really like it, and have Wilky as the next top town read for it. dave is still rather null as I've never played much with millers (if ever... I don't remember a game I've played that had one) and the theory behind it is new to me.

Wilky had an odd reaction to being CCed and I think he might be scum miller given miller as a fakeclaim.

It's like they're not even reading the game... dave got CC'd, not the other way around.

Also this is weird... like a forced "town tell". So basic.

@Mod - Do scum have access to day talk?

You are in a counterclaim and your reaction to the counterclaim felt straight up scum.

I also have a very good grasp of the way GIF's mind works and him putting 1 scum with miller fakeclaim countering 1 town miller makes so, so much sense

Ghost

.....

No. Dave claimed miller first, then Wilky countered that claim with his own miller claim.

So we're just assuming that safe claims are given now?

Like this is SUCH an "I'm scum and didn't have fakeclaims" response.

Well it doesnt feel like that, it feels more like scum using fake claims to their advantage, but i do wonder, eh why not.
VOTE: wilky

VOTE: Impossibear

Good morning

UNVOTE: Impossibear

Vote: verylazy

Unvote: verylazy

VOTE: Wikly

You're just jealous that you're not one of the cool kids.

Also, wheeeeeeeeeee

UNVOTE: wilky
VOTE: verylazy

What the shit is this...

VC 1.01

Ventriloquist (2):

davesaz, hebichan

Ouroboros (1):

Alchemist21

Nero Cain (1):

Impossibear

Tchill13 (1):

verylazy

Kaede Akamatsu (1):

Dunnstral

MariaR (1):

Ramcius

davesaz (1):

wilky

wilky (5):

Ouroboros, Kaede Akamatsu, ManWithNoName, MariaR, Ankamius

WOW. There is

DEFINITELY

scum in this group. Make this the short-list for D1 lynch or N1 investigations.

OK I've thought pretty hard and long about this.

I don't see how my role could be a positive for town.

I'm hard claiming hider that can hide behind scum.

I'm hoping it's understandable why I would hard claim this day 1.

.....?

I hope you elaborate on this in great detail in the coming pages

because honestly, this is the scummiest fucking thing I've seen all thread.

OK I've thought pretty hard and long about this.

I don't see how my role could be a positive for town.

I'm hard claiming hider that can hide behind scum.

I'm hoping it's understandable why I would hard claim this day 1.

Uh it's a bad idea to claim this day 1

at least you maybe drag the kill away from me long enough for me to do some damage

tbf the hider claim D1 is really really stupid, not sure if it's town or not though.

If a tracker or watcher was to see me I didn't want to cause confusion.

I have absolutely no way of helping town. Only causing confusion.

Which is why I hard claimed.

This literally makes zero sense. Targeting scum is almost always seen as coming from town because there's really only a few scum roles that do so - most useful scum roles will be targeting town.

ETL will probably be posting from her main half the time , because she's bad.

I'll try to be good. I don't have it bookmarked on my main so that should help!

correct. So its useless as far as helping town goes from what i can tell.

Why do you think it's useless though...?

Spoiler: ETL's responses pages 6-10

I don't really understand the purpose of a scum miller? Can someone point me a GIF game that had two millers where one of them was scum? TYVM.

As a Town Miller, he has every reason to counterclaim Dave and push the flavor claim and try to catch Dave in a lie while assuming there's only 1 Miller

This is why I think wilky's town 100%. That is exactly how his posts sounded to me. I've been there, it feels great to find something confirmable that could catch scum. His posts come off kind of excited and confident about it.

Regarding the scum possibility, on one hand it does seem to not make sense that he gave Dave the chance to prove he was a 2nd Miller if he didn't even think it was possible before the mod meta was brought up, but on the other hand actually claiming Miller instead of just keeping quiet even if he actually is a scum Miller is opening himself up to the possibility of getting policy lynched or vigged - 2 possibilities that I have to believe his scumbuddies would have warned him about as a scum Miller.

Agree 100% with this as well. It doesn't make sense to not only throw yourself into the spotlight but to do so against 1 person you would know is town. It doesn't end well for scum there.

Someone rolls scum Miller they CC here in exactly that manner because it's the obvious thing to do + not cc'ing at all opens to role cop.

No. You're wrong. If I were a scum miller, I'd shut the fuck up completely until I was forced to say anything about my role. 1) why attract an investigation unnecessarily, and 2) why pit myself in a 1v1 against town? Neither of these make any sense. I would even go so far as to call scum counter claiming miller as game-throwing. It's the exact opposite of what a scum miller would want to do.

VOTE: Ouroborous

I wanna see RC go batshit crazy after getting only like 1 vote lololololol

P-edit holy wallpost batman

miller talk is dumbass shit lol

are you guys ready to lynch scum or not

MariaR is probably scum like, totally scum scum

GOAT READS courtesy of ME

Oh look, I found the VI.

well, this hider claim might come from scum - this way they are safe from checks and can't be used as weak cop - won't die, if visit scum

Explain. This makes no sense to me.

"do scum have daytalk" is a common grab-for-towncred to the point where it's almost a joke, and i'm pretty sure i've seen it used like that before.

Yep. I've done it. And it worked back then. But not anymore. It's old shit, and this was a newbscum move if ever I saw one.

That said I'm not even like townreading Tchill play wise but the amount of scummy people jumping on him over wilky is pretty staggering to the point I want to locktown him

If you're town, you must be completely unable to read tone. Why are you trying to shift the wagon off tchill? Mafdoc maybe? That makes sense as a role that can target scum and would make tchill paranoid about being tracked.

I'm conflicted because I'm gutreading ouroboros as town with just no skill. Like... I like that they're trying; they're reading the game and attempting analysis, which is much more than can be said for several other players so far.

hm, good point, i'm not used to scum protectives, so haven't considered that

Spoken as though he knows there is one. The mafdoc theory is looking more likely.

I'd like to call Ram and tchill as close to confscum as I've ever had on D1. This is amazing.

Wilky is a legendary tier information lynch at this point but meh I would rather lynch the person who is 90% scum vs the person who is like 70ish%

there's no way that character is scum. gtfo.

This seems like such an easy way to hop on to my wagon but brush your hands off any backlash once I flip town.

VOTE: Ramcius

Trust me, he's not flying under any radars here. I've got my eye laser focused on him. If I were playing solo, my vote would be on Ram.

Flavour Claim:

One of my abilities is that I am a prototype synth, my win condition is to eliminate the institute but upon investigation I will show as sided with the institute.

Is your

role

miller? Or just the investigation results?
Fair's fair. My role is Commonwealth Miller, and for flavor in the "abilities" section I'm a former institute scientist who will investigate as Institute.

The role is Commenwealth Miller with something else too. I didn't really want to full claim but there is more to my role.

I'm pretty sure yall don't have the exact role. Hes the scientist and you're the droid. If you've played the game, you'll recognize the flavor (I have, and do). At this point, if both of you are town, I'd suggest dropping this line of conversation.

Like at this point I think we know enough to at least know they're both Millers. I don't think they need to give up any more info unless they get out to L-1.

Yep. Alchemist is town as well, though I think that was obvious on page 2.

Because focusing on negative utility roles is a distraction and is the kind of thing I'd expect scum to be doing if both millers were town

Meh. I think Nero Cain is a better player than that. Plus it would be so much easier to hop on the dave/wilky train, or tchill at this point in the game. Or even Ram as his wagon is ramping up here (page 9/10) as well. Though I think Ram has a super high probably of actually being scum, so... either way, there are other better options for scumNero to choose from than this silliness. Not saying he's town, as he's completely null for me at the moment, just that I think this post is wrong.

Is it not possible Tchill has a jester role of some sort?

I mean... it's possible... but is it probable? I don't really think so. Anyone with GIF meta re: jesters? I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be in a game like this.

Jingle says: GIF wouldn't put jester into this. He would use jester, but not for this.

I like Ventriloquist for town at this point as well, primarily for posts like 246

I think Ramcius scumflip heavily townspews Wilky and likely Tchill as well

Ok this is an interesting thought. Can you explain a bit what your thinking is on this? I don't know that I see an association via Ramcius right now.

Yall post too much.

Spoiler: ETL's responses pages 11-15

I don't get how town Nero can get "oh 3 people claim neg utility so scum has to be fake claiming" without thinking if that's the case town has to have some great stuff or scum are underpowered etc etc.
Scum nero thinking that and using it as an agenda to push something makes a lot more sense though imo.

This is a very curious post. I don't understand the logic.

VOTE: Nero Cain

This seems good

Because focusing on negative utility roles is a distraction and is the kind of thing I'd expect scum to be doing if both millers were town

VOTE: Nero

this is scum sheeping dumb town.

vote:Maria

I think I'm inclined to agree with you here.

He brought out the join date boys.

deflect

yep.
I think Nero is gaining town ferocity here. It looks good.

The issue is you're saying 3 roles 1 has to be a fake claim in them via scum and that's the agenda you're pushing that I have a problem with

Uh.. ok but why do you disagree? I think his logic is sound.

nevermind you answered this question on the next page.

Am I the only person here who's SRing Wilky not because of what they claimed but for the way they did it?

No I'm pretty sure everyone agreed it was the way they claimed not the claim itself. Can I persuade you to help me run up Ramcius?

It is literally the other way around on this for me. I am townreading Wilky because of the way he made his CC. Jingle says he can understand why you think about this the way you do, but we happen to disagree with you.

we got Willy to l2 almost effortlessly and this Ramcius push has gotten far less traction.

BINGO. I disagree with many of your initial conclusions, but you seem to be following the same thought process as me as the thread progresses.

Townreads

Tchill -

eh....

Davesaz -

sure

Alchemist21 -

yes

Hebichan -

eh.. ok.

Our slot obvobv -

yes

Lazy townreads

Dunnstral -

sure

I like this.

Why you comparing mine and Wilky wagons traction?

Very strong scumhunting technique. It seems you don't like it.

I was also considering putting Nero in lazy townreads pile ftr.

Yep. Agreed.

his jump onto Wilky looked like he just wanted RC to stop pushing him

Yes exactly what I was thinking.

No I'm pretty sure everyone agreed it was the way they claimed not the claim itself. Can I persuade you to help me run up Ramcius?

I spectated that Bastard game GIF modded, it seems to me that Ramcius is the type of player that plays in a way that rubs ppl the wrong way and ends up getting himself lynched, ill give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

This sort of thing is what I'm worried about since the last game I played had a D1 VI lynch and I don't want to repeat that. That's why I asked Maria about him, to see if he's known to be a VI. But I still can't get over how his jump onto Wilky looked like he just wanted RC to stop pushing him. Do you think that's something Town Ramcius would do?

I just realised i can't change RC mind and going against him would ended in my own lynch, so i decided settle for my 2nd scumread and give RC his way. There are people i feel like arguing and there are people i try reason a bit and just give their way, if they seems unmovable.

As for VI, i disagree with that, it's just that people find my methods scummy or rather not up to this site meta and i get ML'ed way too often D1 to my liking.

Also, we played in Beneath the Mask, so you have some first hand experience with me and my methods

*SIGH* This is honestly a very genuine-sounding post from a player not accustomed to this site, which makes me doubt my scumread.

Holy shit that was a lot of pages to consume in one sitting. Ok, page 16:

The second quote is the one that really irks me though, coming in and asking about a specific player. I'd put my neck on the line now and say IF there was a Maria scumflip then Alch would most likely be scum too.

Can you walk me through your logic here? I don't quite follow.

How wagons build can be a good way to form reads through wagon analysis to. Granted wagon analysis isn't my strongest point though.

It is definitely one of my stronger points, so you're in luck there. Keep it up and I can help. So far I am in agreement with Ouro on the ram v. wilky wagons. Except Ram's 315 doesn't fit the narrative and that bothers me.

Oh boy, i don't think anyone believes there 2 scums in you, Dave and Tchill, so question is which one of you is scum? Dave is townread by majority, so i leave him out, as i did before, therefore it's you and Tchill. At this point i hope it's obvious, why you and Dave are millers, if Tchill is scum trying to use fuss caused by millers

I like this logic, and agree. Both Dave and Wilky are town imo, though the dave read is far less confident. Jingle strongly thinks tchill to be the scum in that bunch. Overall I agree but I just don't understand anything that tchill has been doing from either perspective.

IMPOSSIBEAR MindMeld ReadsList

Wilky - town
hebichan - ETL thinks town, especially if ram is scum.
Kaede Akamatsu - IC
ManWithNoName - town (for now, b/c jingle is paranoid)
MariaR - unknown - cannot read whether town or scum motivated posts. ETL thought scummy at first but Jingle thinks moonlogic posts are NAI.
Wraith - who?
Ramcius - at first highly convinced this was scum until post 315 now have no idea.
Ankamius - scum
Ouroboros (AnonymousGhost + RadiantCowbells) - town
Tchill13 - scum
Dunnstral - mildly town
verylazy - ?
davesaz - mildly town
Ventriloquist - mildly town
Alchemist21 - town
Nero Cain -town
REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE -

ETL SAYS: KILL IT WITH FIRE.

[Ouroboros]

Acknowledging having read full post

Thinking about it

Clarify man with no name and Ventriloquist townreads please

[Impossibear]

Acknowledging having read full post

Thinking about it

Clarify man with no name and Ventriloquist townreads please

Re: MWNN - Jingle can't remember his posts, and thinks he may be an alt. I said I liked his posts, though I disagree with him (MWNN) on wilky. Both Jingle and i are mainly townreading him for posts like 160. Both of us also agree with some of his setup spec, which indicates town to me, but Jingle thinks it's suspect.

Re: Ventriloquit - We didn't really talk about this one in-depth, so it's primarily my read (ETL). I mentioned in my catch up that I'm slightly townreading him for posts like 246 because it comes across as a player who is thinking about the game from a town perspective. I'll admit it is a very mild read at the moment simply due to unfamiliarity with the person, but I like most of their posts. Call it gut, if you will.

ETL

[Ankamius]

BTW I'm catching up as we speak

I'll have something a bit later on

[Ankamius]

UNVOTE: verylazy
VOTE: Ventriloquist

I'm still catching up, but I'm far enough to have a strong enough townread on Ouroboros that I'm comfortable sheeping them for right now.

[Alchemist21]

Was 387 made in a hydra PT? All the post links in it lead to a thread I'm unauthorized to access.

Why is Real Men on your kill it with fire list?

[Impossibear]

Was 387 made in a hydra PT? All the post links in it lead to a thread I'm unauthorized to access.

*sigh* that's so lame that it does that. the bbcode should be proper for the [post] tags regardless if it's in the hydra PT or in the main thread. I will fix.

Why is Real Men on your kill it with fire list?

Because all posts are useless trolly garbage and I think it's a wasted slot. It's totally unreadable and just adds noise to the thread. Would much prefer someone I can actually at least attempt to figure out via ISO or engagement. As it stands, I don't want to talk to that person at all, ever, and would be happy if they disappeared entirely.

ETL

[Impossibear]

Fixed, though I only found 3, 2 of which were the same.

ETL IS HERE! ♥

First - apologies for the late arrival. Didn't think it would start that quickly, and when it did I was away all weekend. Then I got a flat tire in the middle of nowhere and didn't have access to a computer all day yesterday. Back now. And here we goo..

Please don't skip reading these - I have a lot of discussion I missed and would like to engage with people about several posts, plus I put a lot of time and work into reading this game in-depth rather than skimming so...

Spoiler: ETL's responses pages 1-5

I actually like Alchemist thinking about the what-ifs and could-be's right away, especially for a player he seems to be familiar with.

VOTE: GiF

i'm pretty sure he's scum

This, however, is a total cop-out to avoid suspicion in RVS by not engaging an actual player. Do not like.

Not a fan of the lame back and forth between MariaR and Kaede. Looks really lame and kitschy.

it's more accurately an aversion to gambits as any alignment.
Not claiming miller as town would be a gambit on hoping to not be investigated.

So, does this mean the miller claim is frfr?

i believe they arent fake claiming miller, but that doesnt imply them being town and i'll just rely on day play or other methods to read them.
While on that subject, I think alchemist's use of meta to read dave wasnt scum motivated.

I do like this though, and I agree.

Trust other people? What is this blasphemy?

Another useless post from Ram

two town millers.

Not "two millers", two "town millers". Noted.

So it would be better that the one we think is more likely to be Town going second, so we can confirm or deny the first. But of course if both millers are telling the truth and think this same way, both would be hesitant to go first because they want to be able to confirm the other and could create a potential stalemate.

That's probably overthinking it but basically I still personally have more reason to believe your claim over Wilky's and would rather Wikly be required to claim flavor and you confirm/deny it.

Absolutely excellent critical thinking here. Alchemist is my first personal town read. However, I really liked the way Wilky came in right away and challenged dave - that kind of attitude sounds like it comes from town trying to catch someone in a lie they can verify. I really like it, and have Wilky as the next top town read for it. dave is still rather null as I've never played much with millers (if ever... I don't remember a game I've played that had one) and the theory behind it is new to me.

Wilky had an odd reaction to being CCed and I think he might be scum miller given miller as a fakeclaim.

It's like they're not even reading the game... dave got CC'd, not the other way around.

Also this is weird... like a forced "town tell". So basic.

@Mod - Do scum have access to day talk?

You are in a counterclaim and your reaction to the counterclaim felt straight up scum.

I also have a very good grasp of the way GIF's mind works and him putting 1 scum with miller fakeclaim countering 1 town miller makes so, so much sense

Ghost

.....

No. Dave claimed miller first, then Wilky countered that claim with his own miller claim.

So we're just assuming that safe claims are given now?

Like this is SUCH an "I'm scum and didn't have fakeclaims" response.

Well it doesnt feel like that, it feels more like scum using fake claims to their advantage, but i do wonder, eh why not.
VOTE: wilky

VOTE: Impossibear

Good morning

UNVOTE: Impossibear

Vote: verylazy

Unvote: verylazy

VOTE: Wikly

You're just jealous that you're not one of the cool kids.

Also, wheeeeeeeeeee

UNVOTE: wilky
VOTE: verylazy

What the shit is this...

VC 1.01

Ventriloquist (2):

davesaz, hebichan

Ouroboros (1):

Alchemist21

Nero Cain (1):

Impossibear

Tchill13 (1):

verylazy

Kaede Akamatsu (1):

Dunnstral

MariaR (1):

Ramcius

davesaz (1):

wilky

wilky (5):

Ouroboros, Kaede Akamatsu, ManWithNoName, MariaR, Ankamius

WOW. There is

DEFINITELY

scum in this group. Make this the short-list for D1 lynch or N1 investigations.

OK I've thought pretty hard and long about this.

I don't see how my role could be a positive for town.

I'm hard claiming hider that can hide behind scum.

I'm hoping it's understandable why I would hard claim this day 1.

.....?

I hope you elaborate on this in great detail in the coming pages

because honestly, this is the scummiest fucking thing I've seen all thread.

OK I've thought pretty hard and long about this.

I don't see how my role could be a positive for town.

I'm hard claiming hider that can hide behind scum.

I'm hoping it's understandable why I would hard claim this day 1.

Uh it's a bad idea to claim this day 1

at least you maybe drag the kill away from me long enough for me to do some damage

tbf the hider claim D1 is really really stupid, not sure if it's town or not though.

If a tracker or watcher was to see me I didn't want to cause confusion.

I have absolutely no way of helping town. Only causing confusion.

Which is why I hard claimed.

This literally makes zero sense. Targeting scum is almost always seen as coming from town because there's really only a few scum roles that do so - most useful scum roles will be targeting town.

ETL will probably be posting from her main half the time , because she's bad.

I'll try to be good. I don't have it bookmarked on my main so that should help!

correct. So its useless as far as helping town goes from what i can tell.

Why do you think it's useless though...?

Spoiler: ETL's responses pages 6-10

I don't really understand the purpose of a scum miller? Can someone point me a GIF game that had two millers where one of them was scum? TYVM.

As a Town Miller, he has every reason to counterclaim Dave and push the flavor claim and try to catch Dave in a lie while assuming there's only 1 Miller

This is why I think wilky's town 100%. That is exactly how his posts sounded to me. I've been there, it feels great to find something confirmable that could catch scum. His posts come off kind of excited and confident about it.

Regarding the scum possibility, on one hand it does seem to not make sense that he gave Dave the chance to prove he was a 2nd Miller if he didn't even think it was possible before the mod meta was brought up, but on the other hand actually claiming Miller instead of just keeping quiet even if he actually is a scum Miller is opening himself up to the possibility of getting policy lynched or vigged - 2 possibilities that I have to believe his scumbuddies would have warned him about as a scum Miller.

Agree 100% with this as well. It doesn't make sense to not only throw yourself into the spotlight but to do so against 1 person you would know is town. It doesn't end well for scum there.

Someone rolls scum Miller they CC here in exactly that manner because it's the obvious thing to do + not cc'ing at all opens to role cop.

No. You're wrong. If I were a scum miller, I'd shut the fuck up completely until I was forced to say anything about my role. 1) why attract an investigation unnecessarily, and 2) why pit myself in a 1v1 against town? Neither of these make any sense. I would even go so far as to call scum counter claiming miller as game-throwing. It's the exact opposite of what a scum miller would want to do.

VOTE: Ouroborous

I wanna see RC go batshit crazy after getting only like 1 vote lololololol

P-edit holy wallpost batman

miller talk is dumbass shit lol

are you guys ready to lynch scum or not

MariaR is probably scum like, totally scum scum

GOAT READS courtesy of ME

Oh look, I found the VI.

well, this hider claim might come from scum - this way they are safe from checks and can't be used as weak cop - won't die, if visit scum

Explain. This makes no sense to me.

"do scum have daytalk" is a common grab-for-towncred to the point where it's almost a joke, and i'm pretty sure i've seen it used like that before.

Yep. I've done it. And it worked back then. But not anymore. It's old shit, and this was a newbscum move if ever I saw one.

That said I'm not even like townreading Tchill play wise but the amount of scummy people jumping on him over wilky is pretty staggering to the point I want to locktown him

If you're town, you must be completely unable to read tone. Why are you trying to shift the wagon off tchill? Mafdoc maybe? That makes sense as a role that can target scum and would make tchill paranoid about being tracked.

I'm conflicted because I'm gutreading ouroboros as town with just no skill. Like... I like that they're trying; they're reading the game and attempting analysis, which is much more than can be said for several other players so far.

hm, good point, i'm not used to scum protectives, so haven't considered that

Spoken as though he knows there is one. The mafdoc theory is looking more likely.

I'd like to call Ram and tchill as close to confscum as I've ever had on D1. This is amazing.

Wilky is a legendary tier information lynch at this point but meh I would rather lynch the person who is 90% scum vs the person who is like 70ish%

there's no way that character is scum. gtfo.

This seems like such an easy way to hop on to my wagon but brush your hands off any backlash once I flip town.

VOTE: Ramcius

Trust me, he's not flying under any radars here. I've got my eye laser focused on him. If I were playing solo, my vote would be on Ram.

Flavour Claim:

One of my abilities is that I am a prototype synth, my win condition is to eliminate the institute but upon investigation I will show as sided with the institute.

Is your

role

miller? Or just the investigation results?
Fair's fair. My role is Commonwealth Miller, and for flavor in the "abilities" section I'm a former institute scientist who will investigate as Institute.

The role is Commenwealth Miller with something else too. I didn't really want to full claim but there is more to my role.

I'm pretty sure yall don't have the exact role. Hes the scientist and you're the droid. If you've played the game, you'll recognize the flavor (I have, and do). At this point, if both of you are town, I'd suggest dropping this line of conversation.

Like at this point I think we know enough to at least know they're both Millers. I don't think they need to give up any more info unless they get out to L-1.

Yep. Alchemist is town as well, though I think that was obvious on page 2.

Because focusing on negative utility roles is a distraction and is the kind of thing I'd expect scum to be doing if both millers were town

Meh. I think Nero Cain is a better player than that. Plus it would be so much easier to hop on the dave/wilky train, or tchill at this point in the game. Or even Ram as his wagon is ramping up here (page 9/10) as well. Though I think Ram has a super high probably of actually being scum, so... either way, there are other better options for scumNero to choose from than this silliness. Not saying he's town, as he's completely null for me at the moment, just that I think this post is wrong.

Is it not possible Tchill has a jester role of some sort?

I mean... it's possible... but is it probable? I don't really think so. Anyone with GIF meta re: jesters? I'm willing to bet it wouldn't be in a game like this.

Jingle says: GIF wouldn't put jester into this. He would use jester, but not for this.

I like Ventriloquist for town at this point as well, primarily for posts like 246

I think Ramcius scumflip heavily townspews Wilky and likely Tchill as well

Ok this is an interesting thought. Can you explain a bit what your thinking is on this? I don't know that I see an association via Ramcius right now.

Yall post too much.

Spoiler: ETL's responses pages 11-15

I don't get how town Nero can get "oh 3 people claim neg utility so scum has to be fake claiming" without thinking if that's the case town has to have some great stuff or scum are underpowered etc etc.
Scum nero thinking that and using it as an agenda to push something makes a lot more sense though imo.

This is a very curious post. I don't understand the logic.

VOTE: Nero Cain

This seems good

Because focusing on negative utility roles is a distraction and is the kind of thing I'd expect scum to be doing if both millers were town

VOTE: Nero

this is scum sheeping dumb town.

vote:Maria

I think I'm inclined to agree with you here.

He brought out the join date boys.

deflect

yep.
I think Nero is gaining town ferocity here. It looks good.

The issue is you're saying 3 roles 1 has to be a fake claim in them via scum and that's the agenda you're pushing that I have a problem with

Uh.. ok but why do you disagree? I think his logic is sound.

nevermind you answered this question on the next page.

Am I the only person here who's SRing Wilky not because of what they claimed but for the way they did it?

No I'm pretty sure everyone agreed it was the way they claimed not the claim itself. Can I persuade you to help me run up Ramcius?

It is literally the other way around on this for me. I am townreading Wilky because of the way he made his CC. Jingle says he can understand why you think about this the way you do, but we happen to disagree with you.

we got Willy to l2 almost effortlessly and this Ramcius push has gotten far less traction.

BINGO. I disagree with many of your initial conclusions, but you seem to be following the same thought process as me as the thread progresses.

Townreads

Tchill -

eh....

Davesaz -

sure

Alchemist21 -

yes

Hebichan -

eh.. ok.

Our slot obvobv -

yes

Lazy townreads

Dunnstral -

sure

I like this.

Why you comparing mine and Wilky wagons traction?

Very strong scumhunting technique. It seems you don't like it.

I was also considering putting Nero in lazy townreads pile ftr.

Yep. Agreed.

his jump onto Wilky looked like he just wanted RC to stop pushing him

Yes exactly what I was thinking.

No I'm pretty sure everyone agreed it was the way they claimed not the claim itself. Can I persuade you to help me run up Ramcius?

I spectated that Bastard game GIF modded, it seems to me that Ramcius is the type of player that plays in a way that rubs ppl the wrong way and ends up getting himself lynched, ill give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

This sort of thing is what I'm worried about since the last game I played had a D1 VI lynch and I don't want to repeat that. That's why I asked Maria about him, to see if he's known to be a VI. But I still can't get over how his jump onto Wilky looked like he just wanted RC to stop pushing him. Do you think that's something Town Ramcius would do?

I just realised i can't change RC mind and going against him would ended in my own lynch, so i decided settle for my 2nd scumread and give RC his way. There are people i feel like arguing and there are people i try reason a bit and just give their way, if they seems unmovable.

As for VI, i disagree with that, it's just that people find my methods scummy or rather not up to this site meta and i get ML'ed way too often D1 to my liking.

Also, we played in Beneath the Mask, so you have some first hand experience with me and my methods

*SIGH* This is honestly a very genuine-sounding post from a player not accustomed to this site, which makes me doubt my scumread.

Holy shit that was a lot of pages to consume in one sitting. Ok, page 16:

The second quote is the one that really irks me though, coming in and asking about a specific player. I'd put my neck on the line now and say IF there was a Maria scumflip then Alch would most likely be scum too.

Can you walk me through your logic here? I don't quite follow.

How wagons build can be a good way to form reads through wagon analysis to. Granted wagon analysis isn't my strongest point though.

It is definitely one of my stronger points, so you're in luck there. Keep it up and I can help. So far I am in agreement with Ouro on the ram v. wilky wagons. Except Ram's 315 doesn't fit the narrative and that bothers me.

Oh boy, i don't think anyone believes there 2 scums in you, Dave and Tchill, so question is which one of you is scum? Dave is townread by majority, so i leave him out, as i did before, therefore it's you and Tchill. At this point i hope it's obvious, why you and Dave are millers, if Tchill is scum trying to use fuss caused by millers

I like this logic, and agree. Both Dave and Wilky are town imo, though the dave read is far less confident. Jingle strongly thinks tchill to be the scum in that bunch. Overall I agree but I just don't understand anything that tchill has been doing from either perspective.

IMPOSSIBEAR MindMeld ReadsList

Wilky - town
hebichan - ETL thinks town, especially if ram is scum.
Kaede Akamatsu - IC
ManWithNoName - town (for now, b/c jingle is paranoid)
MariaR - unknown - cannot read whether town or scum motivated posts. ETL thought scummy at first but Jingle thinks moonlogic posts are NAI.
Wraith - who?
Ramcius - at first highly convinced this was scum until post 315 now have no idea.
Ankamius - scum
Ouroboros (AnonymousGhost + RadiantCowbells) - town
Tchill13 - scum
Dunnstral - mildly town
verylazy - ?
davesaz - mildly town
Ventriloquist - mildly town
Alchemist21 - town
Nero Cain -town
REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE -

ETL SAYS: KILL IT WITH FIRE.

[hebichan]

VOTE: Ventriloquist

Yeah, don't really like how hes shading t-chill as "worth considering there either.

[Alchemist21]

The train of thought from Impossibear on Wilky and Ram is a lot like my own. Can you talk to me more about the Maria/Nero interaction? Because we're seeing opposite things there.

I'm giving Ank a few hours to deliver on that promise for content and if they don't I'm moving my vote back there.

[hebichan]

Not them, but I feel like its likely TvT?

I don't know though, if anyone is scum on those interactions It's probably nero, he seemed a bit off guard with maria questioning him.

[Dunnstral]

This wagon movement on Ventriloquist is kind of sketchy.

[hebichan]

I'm following my day one sheep nature.

I don't have the will to be a town voice.

What are you contributing though?