Mini 2006: Scummer in this game UPick GAME OVER

[mastina]

The bigger question is why none of the mason claims scum read each other after both have doubled down.

Simple.

Because I am using the metric every fucking player should be using.

Play > Role.

And Roleclaim != Alignment.

With a side of the exception to the rule on role != alignment in that yes some roleclaims DO equal alignment and scum don't fucking counterclaim masons on D1.

beeboy's play is ridiculously, transparently town.
Lovebird's play is strongly town especially if Lovebird is an alt of the player I think they are an alt of. (If Lovebird were said player, Lovebird would be all-but-explicitly-conftown on play alone.)
Scum don't counterclaim masons on D1 especially knowing that we WILL be flipping masons and they WOULD get in trouble for it.
Scum also don't casually claim masons in the way beeboy did.
Scum also don't leave the breadcrumbs for being masons in the way beeboy and Lovebird did.

The reason I am not suspicious of beeboy or Lovebird in spite of their counterclaim is because it is transparently obvious they are town.
Are they masons? Fucked if I know. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. But regardless. Masons, not masons. They are town either way.

And continuing to shadethrow the masons continues to be a scumclaim.

Because once more.

Scum cannot win this game if both sets of masons are treated as conftown.

So they fucking NEED to try and get people doubting one if not both of the masons.

[mastina]

I briefly reconsidering my stance on your predecessor, but you are spouting the same sort of nonsense he did, so I am keeping my vote where it is.

This is precisely why OnTheMark is scum--OnTheMark is following, exactly, down to the letter,

the exact same strategem Wisdom was doing

. There is a continuity to the slot, one not possible if it were town but which makes obvious sense as scum, because as scum OnTheMark would be apprised of the situation and know he needed to keep doing what Wisdom was doing.

I have seen this from scum Mathblade before. (Forget which game, but I've seen it from him.) This continuity of the slot as scum.
I've never seen this from a town Mathblade before. Because Mathblade's thoughts differ QUITE EXTREMELY from those of most individuals, thus, he is never in line with his predecessor.

I ask you.

Run an iso of Wisdom.
Run an iso of OnTheMark.
Compare the two from a viewpoint of what is being pushed.

Ask yourself--how much do they differ?
How much do they overlap?

Here, have the link to page three of Wisdom's iso with a direct continuity into OnTheMark's iso following. You don't have to read the other two pages, just the last hundred or so posts to see what I mean here.

You'll note that while the words used differ. The viewpoints do not.

[mastina]

If you think you can ever make a post like "Maria only does ___ as scum or ___ as town" and it be correct you're wrong. I've openly said I hate using high levels of ate as scum though because winning like that isn't fun at all. Like could I prob win with high level ate and if I tryhard the fuck just going for a scum win? Yeah but that's not fun.

Uh-huh. (I'd all too happily wagon Maria if the Mark wagon fell apart.)

calling me a liar?

A hypocrite, actually, but I suppose hypocrites are indirectly liars so sure.

because a mod such as yourself knows 4 masons never passes review.

Well I do doubt beeboy/Lovebird's legitimacy.
It's just that I know fucking better than to blindly assume their claim comes from scum because I am not a fucking moron. I have a fucking brain so I use my fucking rule. Play > Role(claim). They have town play, which trumps their roleclaim.

But to humor your argument--four masons in pairs of two can, has, and DOES pass review all the time; it is not nearly as uncommon a thing as you are trying to shade it to be.

[beeboy]

OTM I just want to make something clear given this situation.

I do think Mastina is scum a lot of the time here, but the claims themselves doesn't mean I am ever going to lynch Nico Robin.

[mastina]

They are confirmed to share the same fucking alignment.

Alignment:
Pro-town

Masons are a group of players who can speak to each other privately and

know that everyone in their group is not a member of the Mafia

. Whether the Masons' ability to privately communicate can be used at any time or at Night only is up to the moderator's discretion. The number of Masons can vary from game to game, and

it is not impossible for there to exist separate Mason groups within the same game

.


Variations
The Mason role has generated a fair amount of controversy and a few offshoots. Be sure you ask the moderator what precisely it means to be a Mason, as all of the below have been known to simply be called "Mason".

Most notoriously, some moderators will introduce Mafia-aligned Masons, taking the term "Mason" to imply that it is probable that the other Masons are Town-aligned, and not absolute. These nonconfirmed Masons are supposed to be middling in certainty between Neighbors (see below) and confirmed Masons; however, this is impossible to mathematically verify.

Alternatively, moderators may introduce Werewolves into Masonries (and likewise Mafia members into Monasteries) without bastardry, as the definition of a Mason or Monk is that they are confirmed not to be a member of a specific non-Town faction

.

To contrast, the standard term for players who do not know each others' alignments but can speak to each other privately is Neighbors.

Normal Guidelines
Masons, regardless of when they are allowed to speak to each other, are considered Normal on mafiascum.net,

provided they are Town-aligned

. A Masonry must contain at least two Masons.

Use and Power

The most obvious power of a Masonry (and Best Friends) is the mutual confirmation of multiple players as Town

.
In addition, while a Cop's innocent results are mostly only useful if the Cop lives to claim them and is believed,

each of the Masons can mutually confirm the others as soon as the existence of a Mason is made evident

. (For instance, if someone dies overNight and flips Mason, the other Mason(s) can still claim and be considered confirmed Town.) Last,

Mason is difficult (but not impossible) for scum to fakeclaim, as they need to put up a scumpartner to be their fake Mason partner and hope that neither of them die over the course of the game

.

Nowhere in this does it say masons are confirmed to be of the same alignment.

You are outright lying about the nature of the mason role.

Nowhere on the fucking page does it say they are confirmed to be the same alignment.

At every spot where alignment-confirmation is mentioned, it is also mentioned with the word TOWN. As in, confirmed to be TOWN aligned.

Try again.

[NicoRobin]

OTM I just want to make something clear given this situation.

I do think Mastina is scum a lot of the time here, but the claims themselves doesn't mean I am ever going to lynch Nico Robin.

Actually, it's the opposite. I am the expendable one here and if you're gonna lynch one of us, it will be me. She is the one who should live.

[beeboy]

You guys are so bad at voting Mom.
Also what is her flavor I don't think anyone answered me when I asked.

[CheekyTeeky]

Beeboy why would mom claim a scumrole igdi?

[mastina]

Again if you’re town it’s legalese and splitting hairs

WHICH IS MY FUCKING SPECIALTY.
THIS IS HOW I FUCKING BREAK GAMES.

I learned from Nachomamma. (Well actually I picked it up on my own and it just so happens to be something Nacho was known for, but since I did learn from Nacho I like to say that I learned it from him. )

I don't break games with the big stuff.

I break games with the fucking details.

With the nuances.

With bombarding the moderator with questions the mod did not have the foresight to fully see.

Yes, the mod generally has an emergency self-defense mechanism against my question bombardment.

But I can, have, and DO fucking win games by doing this. (As both alignments, to be fair, but NORMALLY as town.)

Cheetory's response to questions gave me a golden opportunity.
If he had taken a different stance this game then I wouldn't have been given that opportunity--but because he used the rules he is using in regards to answering questions.

I have what is, genuinely, a gamebreaking plan which can and WILL generate absolute conftown without a flip on D1.

A type of exploitation of mod error which isn't true mod error so much as mod oversight in not thinking through the consequences of his answers or lack thereof.

So again.

Let me quote the plan once more.

Mod could scum be masons?

The answer to this is no. Nico actually asked this right off the bat in our mason PT. Was one of the first things she did. Thought it was pretty dumb to do because of course masons are town in a non-bastard game it is literally written into the wiki for masons to be conftown to one another, but she asked it anyway as one of her quirks and Cheet did answer, so.

Absolutely, masons are conftown. They cannot be scum.

To be a little more explicit.

Nico's exact question to Cheetory was if we are explicitly confirmed town to one another; Cheet answered that yes, we are. (Actually it was just 'yes'.)

If beeboy and Lovebird are genuinely masons, they can ask that same question to Cheetory and get that same answer.

To further confirm we are masons.

Say beeboy and Lovebird come back and confirm this is the answer Cheetory gives to the question, "Are we explicitly conftown to one another?". That Cheetory answers 'yes' to it.

Okay then.
Try asking the mod, "Hypothetically, if I were a mason with another player, would we be conftown to one another?"
If Cheetory refuses to answer that question.

In spite of answering it for Nico and I.
And beeboy/Lovebird (assuming they can even produce this confirmation in the first place).
Then he is by proxy confirming we cannot have this information as scum.

And yes I know I am backing Cheetory into a corner; that's what I fucking do.

Cheetory has two choices here.
He can keep modding his game consistently, deny the answers to the non-masons, give them to the second pair of masons, and indirectly confirm by this process we are conftown.
Or he can break consistent modding practice by giving answers to the non-masons...which, by proxy of him needing to answer the same. Ends up indirectly confirming by that process we are conftown.

I might not be wording this the best way, but basically.

-Cheetory has, publicly, denied to answer the question of if masons are conftown to one another.
-Cheetory has, privately to Nico Robin and I, confirmed that we are explicitly conftown to one another.
-If beeboy and Lovebird are genuinely masons, Cheetory cannot justify giving one set of masons one answer and then giving a different set of masons a different answer; this is setting his game up for self-destruction, and thus, he is forced to give them the same answer to maintain consistent modding practice.
-However, Cheetory DOES have a choice: between privately confirming to players that masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, or privately denying to answer players asking if masons are explicitly confirmed to one another.
*If Cheetory chooses to privately confirm that masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, then while the option of scum fakeclaiming remains theoretically possible, we have confirmed that there's no fucking thing as "One half of the masonry is town, the other half is scum". This allows us to know that the only possibilities are both-town or both-scum.
*If Cheetory chooses to privately decline to answer if masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, then it confirms that Nico Robin, myself, beeboy, and Lovebird

somehow

obtained information unavailable to others; four names having it means we can't be a scumteam, either. This confirms beyond any shadow of a doubt that we are conftown.

Of course. This plan doesn't work if beeboy and Lovebird aren't actually masons and thus can't get the information Nico and I got, buuuuuuut. I'd take that smugly too as an "I fucking told you so that we were masons".

To reiterate.

beeboy and Lovebird, you need to ask Cheetory IN YOUR MASON PT if you are explicitly conftown to one another.
Everyone who is not a mason, you need to ask Cheetory IN PRIVATE, "Hypothetically, if I were a mason with another player, would we be explicitly conftown to one another?"

No matter how Cheetory responds, if everyone follows this process, we will end up confirming information about masons.

That beeboy and Lovebird are fucking liars (just town ones at that) if they can't produce this confirmation, that masons can't be town-scum if Cheetory answers in private, or that all four of mastina/Nico/beeboy/Lovebird have information unavailable even by asking the mod and thus it pertains to their roles and thus they are actually masons.

No matter which option we come out as having. You end up with conftown that are, truly, even without flips, conftown.

All you have to do is ask the right question to the mod.

Either find a flaw in this plan, or fucking follow it.

Because I am 100% confident this tells you the truth of the game if followed through.

[beeboy]

Beeboy why would mom claim a scumrole igdi?

Have you not seen scum actually claim there roles before?
Like a random role cop claim by a scum rolecop or a real tracker claim from scum given its a "confirmable" role thinking it will help them. It's not that uncommon for scum to do that sort of thing.

This game is role madness and Cheetory may not have given them fake claims, she couldn't have just claimed VT.

[mastina]

Mastina if you truly intend on busing actually do it pls.

Sorry, but voting Momrangal would be legit, genuinely bussing town.

I only "bus" scum.

[beeboy]

I've seen scum literally deviate from there fake claims before and out themselves as a result.
I've deviated from my fake claim before and put myself in a worse spot as scum.

Not every scum action is good and not every scum action is really well thought out.

[beeboy]

What is Mom's flavor?
Or is that not even claimed info?

[beeboy]

Reading her ISO I think it's Mastina? I guess to a small degree that makes sense?

I'll vote Not Mafia I guess, I just don't feel like I need to be alive to make that lynch happen..

[mastina]

You guys are so bad at voting Mom.
Also what is her flavor I don't think anyone answered me when I asked.

Momrangal's flavor is mastina.
Which.
Yaknow.

Makes perfect fucking sense as being a Mason Cop given I am the poster child for mason gambits.

Wisdom (now OnTheMark) also has me, mastina, as the slot's flavor btw.

And in spite of softing an ability has not actually outright claimed what it is. Wonder why?

[beeboy]

I literally just think Mom claimed her scum role.
What aspects of her play are particularly townie?

[mastina]

I've seen scum literally deviate from there fake claims before and out themselves as a result. I've deviated from my fake claim before and put myself in a worse spot as scum.

And yet you think that I could be scum in spite of me fucking being the POSTER CHILD for not fucking lying as scum

for this exact reason

.

#logic.

[CheekyTeeky]

Ok I'll vote either one Idc. What's the VC?

[CheekyTeeky]

VOTECOUNT 1.26

Lady LambdaDelta [1]

- Kokichi Oma

Not_Mafia [3]

- Lady LambdaDelta, beeboy, Momrangal

Pine [1]

- Lovebird

OnTheMark [4]

- NicoRobin, mastina, Pine, Not_Mafia

Momrangal [1]

- MariaR

Kokichi Oma [1]

- MOMOMEN

Not Voting [2]:

CheekyTeeky, OnTheMark

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
You have (expired on 2018-05-16 18:00:00) to do so.

VOTE: OntheMark D:

[CheekyTeeky]

Is that hammer?

[MOMOMEN]

VOTE: onthemark

[mastina]

I literally just think Mom claimed her scum role. What aspects of her play are particularly townie?

This is a little difficult to answer without it being just ~stuff~, but really, ~stuff~ just rings town.

But anyway.

This seemed like a good place to once more run through what I am getting at, with all the relevant information.

-

FACT: Momrangal has claimed Mason Cop, getting results in the form of "Mason" or "Not Mason".

This is indisputable.
It is generally agreed that this is not a fakeclaim. Those who think Momrangal think it's her real role, just claimed as scum; those who think her town think it's her real role. Does everyone agree so far? Okay then! From this, we can go further with an additional inference.

-

Inferred Fact: If there is a Mason Cop in the game, then it is likely there is

at least

one set of actual masons. Possibly two.

So you follow with this, right? You might have thoughts on it, that it's possible to exist without masons as a red herring role, or that the possibility of two mason sets is slim, but you follow with the statement as worded, yes? Likely (even if not definitively) at least one set of masons (maybe two).

Alright, good with that?

I'd love to spend extra time on why I feel a mason cop increases the odds of four masons in the game (namely because it gives the mason cop more people to get results on), but if I did that I'd be taking away from the point of my argument, so let's keep on going.

-

FACT: Nico Robin and mastina are claimed masons together; beeboy and Lovebird are claimed masons together.

This is indisputable.

-

Inferred Fact: Given our prior inferred fact of the mason cop, it can then be assumed at least one (possibly both) sets of claims is thus true.

Thus, it can be inferred that AT LEAST one set of beeboy/Lovebird and Nico Robin/mastina are masons, with the possibility both are.

-

FACT: Cheetory has declined to answer if masons would be explicitly conftown to one another publicly.

This is indisputable.

-

FACT: Nico Robin and mastina are claiming that when Nico Robin asked Cheetory if they were explicitly conftown to one another, Cheetory answered "yes".

This is indisputable.

And here's where the critical step is.
-

Inferred Fact: Nico Robin and I are claiming information not available by asking publicly. The only possibility is thus that we obtained this information over a private channel. The possible channels are PM/mafia PT/mason PT.

-

Inferred Fact Followthrough: Mafia PTs function identically for all intents and purposes to PMs; an answer available by PM is available in the mafia PT, and vice-versa.

-

Inferred Fact2: If beeboy and Lovebird are actually masons, they should get the same answer because Cheetory won't treat two mason pairs differently from one another.

-

Inferred Fact2 followthrough: If beeboy and Lovebird cannot produce the same answer, then you have a confirmed liar pair in the set of beeboy/Lovebird and Nico Robin/mastina; if beeboy and Lovebird can produce the same answer, then you have confirmation of the answer's accuracy.

And from here, I shouldn't need to hold your hand as I walk you through it. But I will anyway.

-

Inferred Facts Followthroughs' Inferred Fact: By asking Cheetory via PM, "Hypothetically, if I were a mason with a player, would we be conftown to one another?", you can test whether mafia can get access to this information. If Cheetory declines to answer, then mafia cannot access the information; if Cheetory does answer, then mafia can access information.

-

Inferred Facts Followthroughs' Inferred Fact Followthrough: If Cheetory confirms that masons are explicitly conftown to one another, then you know AT LEAST one set of beeboy/Lovebird and mastina/Nico Robin is town; you also know that mastina and Nico Robin were being truthful about the information they shared.

And therein lies the critical part.

Because we know there are masons in the game.
And we know that EITHER: masons are conftown to one another (Cheet answers in private) OR: mastina/Nico Robin have an answer unavailable to the public which beeboy/Lovebird EITHER: vouch for, OR: deny.

The possibilities you end up with are based on that.
-Masons are conftown; masons are in the game; you have AT LEAST one set of conftown in beeboy/Lovebird and Nico Robin/mastina.
-Masons aren't publicly known to be conftown; beeboy/Lovebird are liars by claiming to be masons and not having the answer and Nico Robin/mastina are truthfully masons.
-Masons aren't publicly known to be conftown; beeboy/Lovebird don't have a way to confirm this and Nico Robin/mastina are lying about that information for...some reason...because lying about mod communication gives them some sort of...mystical voodoo advantage of some sort. (I really don't get this one so if you believe it, you're gonna have some explainin' to do.)
-Masons aren't publicly known to be conftown; beeboy/Lovebird vouch for Nico Robin/mastina's claim that they are, and thus, this confirms all four as town.

I already know that it isn't #3.

So no matter what. You end up with knowing that there are conftown. Off of the setup information we have available to us today.

Through a combination of roleclaims and Cheetory's stances on answering questions.
We get conftown we otherwise wouldn't get.

Point out where this process is wrong.

Because my logic? It fucking holds. Because it is based off of FACTS. With the LOGICAL INFERENCES GIVEN THOSE FACTS.
Unless you want to argue that my inferences are wrong, then be my guest and fucking DO SO. I'd like to see you try.

[mastina]

Is that hammer?

Sadly, with seven to lynch, they're at L-1.

Where's Ginngie when you need her.

[Lovebird]

If I were scum, couldn't I just say "yes" anyways? Don't get how it confirms anything.

[Lovebird]

VOTE: momrangal