Newbie 1867 - Game Over

[TheRampage]

I swear, if Jester were a possibility in this game, Ircher would be sure fire Jester. Can't tell if bad town or scrum though

is this a comment to Icher's posts on past few pages? If so, what makes those posts look scummy to you?

My only other possible is NorthSideGal. I say possible they are rubbing me the wrong way with that post using meta from other games. I personally think that is bad reasoning for mafia. I have played with people who change their strategy to keep people on their toes and not be able to use meta, and I have seen people play the exact same whether they are town or mafia. So, I just find it funny that on day 1 when there really isn't much to go off of, that they have meta reads on just about everyone. Still, to me, it really isn't actionable, but it is definitely something I will be keeping my eyes on.

Since there isn't much to go off D1 why is it bad that NSG is using her previous experiences with players to form reads? (also I think you didn't carefully read her posts, she only has two reads of meta, really).

Right now though, I think ofrhz is the one I feel most comfortable with for the reasons I stated several posts ago. He has stayed under the radar, not leading any lynches. I he tried to test the waters for a Vulcan lynch, but never committed until other people hopped on. All those are scum things to me; cause he was leading it, but not really trying to sound like he was leading it. It has been almost 24 hours since I pointed that out, and he had not popped in yet, and I find it hard to believe he hasn't read it yet.

Has ofrhz replacing out changed your opinion?

What's your experience with playing forum mafia?

Okay, so for this first question, it was more me stating that it was hard for me to read him. I feel like he is playing badly. Not sure if he is just trying to be too active and is coming across scummy, or if he is actually scum. I would personally like to think that scum wouldn't be as blatantly out and obvious like this.

For the second question, I stated why I didn't agree with using meta. People don't always play the same exact way every time they play town or mafia. Some people play the same no matter what. You are actually kind of fooling yourself if you use meta as a reason to vote one way or another. That is my personal opinion.

Third, that is a difficult question to answer. In a perfect world, a new player would mean a new opportunity. But the problem is that we are under the gun with the deadline and I feel like I had a good read on ofrhz. Some have pointed out that scum wouldn't replace out, but I really feel like that is not true, especially when one is being looked at. Now, do I feel bad for teacher having to come in behind him and have votes already on him because of another player...what it comes down to is this, if my read on ofrhz is right, then it doesn't matter how well teacher plays or comes off town, cause essentially he has the same role. So of ofrhz was scum, then so is teacher.

My experience playing mafia was as a game on a community forum with T-Bone and at least one other person from here that I know of. We played one game at a time on two different forums, and I played for maybe close to a year or two. I have done poorly and I have done well...just as I assume everyone else who plays this game has done. I do have some experience from outside of this forum, and it will take some getting to know some of the exacts from this forum, but the game is still essentially the same.

[Scioness Sajj]

ugh, i'm tired. sorry TheRampage I will get back to you tomorrow.

I have read everything, read list as of the post I have repped in:

{ofrhz slot, Draynth}
{VL}
{ircher}
{null}
{Nachomamma, NSG}
{TheRampage,}
{Harambey slot}

As much as I'm happy with my catch up this mostly a rl based on pings and impressions. Draynth is my strongest townread, ofrhz is a little lower but I didn't want to add another tier. The one below null tier is as much of a light sr as it is me being impressed with both players, I guess, more below.

vulcan - it was easy for me to understand his thoughts, but I don't like 260 so I will probably be back to this slot.
ircher - seems like upset/frustrated town tbh, some of his posts are ??? but none of them really strike me as scummy.
Nachomamma - idk, his posts pre Harambey's call to readlists seemed like a standard IC work to me, maybe i'm just wary of him, but those few first pages are overshadowing later posts. i only really like his read on vulcan it was iirc.
NSG - a ghost slot, probably the only slot I'd policy if she keeps not contributing.
therampage - mostly read on the previous player in this slot.
Harambey - the majority of his posts ping me the wrong way. I feel like the only reason for me to town read this slot would be his effort to keep the game alive.

Those are thoughts from on top of my head, i will explain more in-depth tomorrow if needed.

[northsidegal]

oh wow, scioness and nancy, great to see you both!

[northsidegal]

i'm not exactly sure what ircher is doing - it's a pretty far cry from the serious person of just a few pages ago. i feel like he's just throwing things against the wall - not even sure if that's more likely to come from town scared of getting lynched or scum.

[northsidegal]

scioness sharing both of my reads on ofhrz and draynth makes me feel pretty confident about those and pretty good about scioness being town for now - might seem like an early read but i trust myself a lot to sort her so i'm really not worried. (something to think about if i'm nightkilled, perhaps)

[northsidegal]

Okay, so for this first question, it was more me stating that it was hard for me to read him. I feel like he is playing badly. Not sure if he is just trying to be too active and is coming across scummy, or if he is actually scum. I would personally like to think that scum wouldn't be as blatantly out and obvious like this.

I feel like this is an opinion that a lot of newer players share and i completely honestly think it's just more likely to lead you down the wrong path more often than not. I just modded and played in a game with another newer player who always did basically the same thing, notice someone acting scummy or just something in general and then try to think multiple levels deeper to figure it out. I'm not the IC, but i think that, absent a compelling reason otherwise, more often than not just taking things as they seem (i.e. scummy players being scum) will lead you to the correct conclusion.

[TheRampage]

Okay, so for this first question, it was more me stating that it was hard for me to read him. I feel like he is playing badly. Not sure if he is just trying to be too active and is coming across scummy, or if he is actually scum. I would personally like to think that scum wouldn't be as blatantly out and obvious like this.

I feel like this is an opinion that a lot of newer players share and i completely honestly think it's just more likely to lead you down the wrong path more often than not. I just modded and played in a game with another newer player who always did basically the same thing, notice someone acting scummy or just something in general and then try to think multiple levels deeper to figure it out. I'm not the IC, but i think that, absent a compelling reason otherwise, more often than not just taking things as they seem (i.e. scummy players being scum) will lead you to the correct conclusion.

Except I have played this game other places, and there have been tons of times where I have seen a player just like that and pop town. That is why I am cautious to lynch that player. I want to wait and see how things play out because if he is town, he is an easy target for the mafia to get lynched, and one that no one will question anyone about after he flips town.

[Ircher]

By the way, I have some statisticcs on my wiki page.... You should go look at them.

[nancy]

oh wow, scioness and nancy, great to see you both!

Hi! I just got home and I am about to take a shower and unwind before I start reading things. When are you around to talk and stuff? Also how are you feeling about this game?

[nancy]

Those are thoughts from on top of my head, i will explain more in-depth tomorrow if needed.

More depth is always welcome.

How would your worlds change if you knew that my slot was town? Because that is the world we are in right now.

[nancy]

Vote: Harambey180

I think the fact that he hasn't posted yet is strange. He's been active onsite for a while after the L-1 wagon formed, and I think that it's likelier that he is scum who is avoiding posting for a little while in the hopes that what's mostly just a baseless wagon will die out than town who saw the wagon form and had nothing to say/could find nothing to address.

Other fairly equivalent votes I could see myself making are Alciel and creppy. I don't believe that either have them have done more than the bare minimum to play the game, which is sometimes a sign of scum who is uncomfortable.

I don't understand why you would push this type of read as either alignment? I think it makes more sense if you are mafia because you have a greater need to Do Things before there are really things to do and this probably fits that category. If you take away the angleshoot-y part of the read then there is basically no read at all and that feels sketchy to me. I don't understand why you thought this was the most alignment indicative thing that in the game at that point. I am confused that you voted the person who hasn't posted anything scummy over the two people who you think have posted things that are scummy?

I have to figure out how much the IC thing is a thing for you.

Also on level 1 you are doing the thing where mafia scumread someone for doing the thing they are going out of their way to not do in the hopes that people read the not doing as a towntell. Mmm. I don't really think you play on level 1 though.

This game is going to be interesting because now I am going to be a dumpster fire, since I am working upwards of 140 hours. We have more in common now.

[nancy]

Oh hey Ircher Nacho already said all the things for me what do you know.

Why would I try to 'defend' myself against a wagon this early on? By staying silent I also won't give scum more information / opportunities to throw more shade in me. And the more I talk, the more I'm putting myself in a losing position based on the past. Because of how I verbalize things, I guess.

My problem was less that you weren't defending yourself and more that you weren't posting at all. When you're town and you're the significant wagon, it means that, at this moment, the town's main direction is wrong. So, if you're town here, all of the time that we're spending pushing and investigating you is essentially time wasted. When you encourage people to vote elsewhere - either by defending yourself or scumhunting and generally giving town - you're increasing the chances that scum get lynched by having people focus their time elsewhere.

I strongly disagree with the sentiment expressed in the later half of your statement. In a typical game, scum do not need information to win; they are called the "informed minority" for a reason. Their general goals should be keeping information from town when possible (although generally boring as hell, one of the more effective scum strategies is not attempting to jumpstart a game that is apathetic), and, when they are unable to do that, warping information as much as they possibly can (by emphasizing certain pieces of people's play and downplaying others). By staying silent here, you're doing your job for them - how am I supposed to trust someone who doesn't talk/contribute/or share their thoughts? How are you supposed to trust someone like creppy when they haven't actually shared any of their thoughts?

I've played with plenty of people who find themselves getting lynched more and more frequently the more they talk, but you can't protect yourself from being mislynched by just not talking - it might keep you out of the conversation early, but later in the game when POE kicks in, you'll find yourself getting edged out frequently as people realize there's nothing you've done that's fakeable from a halfway competent scumplayer. By learning to communicate more effectively (whether that's in presenting your thoughts or simply defending them once you've presented them), you can be more influential and connect with others in a way where they'll be able to trust you late game. I do not think that there's a single person who's attempted to play mafia who has realized their full potential by not talking.

Does any of this make sense?

[nancy]

@Ali - Explain please.
Pedit: Nvm my warning

He didn't state a reason so I voted for him, same reason why you're asking me thid. Didn't state mine since no one really asked him why for his vote.

This isn't really helpful by the way, Townies want to be as transparent as possible whenever possible. It makes you easier to read and work out what your motivations are. Scum will be intentionally obtuse and awkward about their intentions.

If you see someone doing something you consider to be scummy then definitely bring it up, even if you haven't seen anyone else do so.

Ummmmm

VOTE: Etromin
Serious vote

Um... are you going to elaborate on that?

Probably not

[Nachomamma8]

I am confused that you voted the person who hasn't posted anything scummy over the two people who you think have posted things that are scummy?

I mostly understand where you're coming from, but I don't understand this.

I feel obligated to do things before I should in newbie games often. I feel obligated to do things before I should in games when I'm familiar with people, too; I don't think it's a feeling that's exclusive to one alignment or the other.

[Nachomamma8]

Also on level 1 you are doing the thing where mafia scumread someone for doing the thing they are going out of their way to not do in the hopes that people read the not doing as a towntell. Mmm. I don't really think you play on level 1 though.

It's possible I understand this better after rest, but I don't understand this now.

[Draynth]

Howdy. Im on page 4. Anyone want to influence my catchup?

I don't like this post

@Ali - Explain please.
Pedit: Nvm my warning

He didn't state a reason so I voted for him, same reason why you're asking me thid. Didn't state mine since no one really asked him why for his vote.

This isn't really helpful by the way, Townies want to be as transparent as possible whenever possible. It makes you easier to read and work out what your motivations are. Scum will be intentionally obtuse and awkward about their intentions.

If you see someone doing something you consider to be scummy then definitely bring it up, even if you haven't seen anyone else do so.

Ummmmm

VOTE: Etromin
Serious vote

Um... are you going to elaborate on that?

Probably not

Psst, this is how reaction tests work. I already said that's what it was

[Draynth]

therampage - mostly read on the previous player in this slot.

What did you find scummy about ventril?

[teacher]

Not all that much since yesterday for me to react to.

Gladiate Teacher

Voting me three times is no different than voting me once.

vulcan - it was easy for me to understand his thoughts, but I don't like 260 so I will probably be back to this slot.

Im interested in this, because as my reads said I kind of liked his reaction to L-1 including this post. What didnt you like about it?

I feel like I had a good read on ofrhz.

Does the reasoning behind that read still stand up, though? I accept -- even agree with, on some level -- your read on Ircher, which I understand as too obvious to be scum. I just think its the best lynch not only because of the play, but the associatives. I dont feel like you or anyone else has really engaged me on my reads. What do you think of Nancy/Harambe? She is currently my conundrum slot, which brings me to....

I have to figure out how much the IC thing is a thing for you.

I found it odd that you picked this post of Nacho's to focus on. It did seem odd (particularly when it was an unannounced L-1), but I thought the later posts in the 160s redeemed her and made it obvious that she was trying to do IC things. Had you read those posts when you made this one? Same question regarding 387 -- Draynth explained his vote in the 70s, after what you quoted. Had you read that explanation before you made your post?

Im trying to see where you are in catching up so that I can interpret your posts better. That said, perhaps I should be more leery of an experienced scum!IC. In my last newb game, town!me led a lynch of the town!IC D2 so I may be feeling guilt about that as well.

I don't like this post

What didnt you like about it? FYI, at that point I had replaced in, hadnt gotten a role PM, and was simply looking to interact with someone while catching up. Nobody took me up on it, so I passed the entire hour reading.

Last, @Scioness: I actually omitted your slot in my readslist because I had largely overlooked Etromin. I did an ISO dive on you two. Etromin didnt really do much at all other than get a bit defensive about any votes placed on her, but that could be newbness. I liked your entry to the game, but havent gotten enough to really get a sense. I look forward to your answer on the Vulcan question above, and also regarding your Rampage/Ventril/creppy read.

[Nachomamma8]

This game is going to be interesting because now I am going to be a dumpster fire, since I am working upwards of 140 hours. We have more in common now.

I'm glad to hear that. I've been afraid to play mafia simply because I feel guilty not being able to do more in general, but having a dumpster fire sibling is a wonderful feeling.

[Nachomamma8]

Okay, so for this first question, it was more me stating that it was hard for me to read him. I feel like he is playing badly. Not sure if he is just trying to be too active and is coming across scummy, or if he is actually scum. I would personally like to think that scum wouldn't be as blatantly out and obvious like this.

I disagree with NSG's line of reasoning; I'd recommend that you drop lines of thought like this completely.

When you say "is he too scummy to be scum or is he actually just scum?", you are not asking a productive or meaningful question - you're just going around in a weird circle. What bothers you about his play? What advantages does this bring him as scum? Is it realistic for him to think that he can get away with this as scum?

[Nachomamma8]

Townies have been consistently lynched for their transparency, their honesty, and their humanity.

Nancy's point that just because things like this happened in the past doesn't mean that they're doomed to repeat themselves forever is a valid and important one. It can often feel hopeless when you've been playing for a while and you continuously see the same result or people don't seem to get you time after time after time, but it doesn't mean that there won't be a time where you won't be a mislynch and it doesn't mean that no one will ever understand you.

[Nachomamma8]

Does reading Open 721 changed anything from your initial read 240?

It was less of a read and more of a glance, but it's solidified impressions more than anything. I'm okay with meta usually, but the talk of ofrhz's meta this game ranges from too general to be useful to wildly inaccurate; if it's something you're confident on and you need me to trust, I need more than I'm getting right now.

[Nachomamma8]

But, that being said, even though I don't really see where people are coming from with the meta read, it still makes me a bit gun shy; his swan song adds to that general feeling of apprehension.

Currently, I have confident townreads on the group of Nancy/Ircher/Vulcan/Draynth(?). I'm willing to swing on the 4 remaining outside of that group, but I'm happiest lynching one of the NSG/teacher group.

[Nachomamma8]

Townies have been consistently lynched for their transparency, their honesty, and their humanity.

This feeling is also why you don't apathy lynch people, and why you don't quickhammer.

[Scioness Sajj]

One reason that I'm suspecting Harambe less now is that he wanted to replace out. I could see that being NAI, but this gamestate is bad for town... frustrating for town... and I could see scum sticking it through because a bunch of disinterested townies is an easy win.

what do you think of me stating in one of my first posts that I'd lynch Harambey of 35 and how he engaged me over the post in which I didn't want to lynch you.
I mean do you think my talk with him and the replacement can be connected?