Newbie 1867 - Game Over

[Scioness Sajj]

Okay, so for this first question, it was more me stating that it was hard for me to read him. I feel like he is playing badly. Not sure if he is just trying to be too active and is coming across scummy, or if he is actually scum. I would personally like to think that scum wouldn't be as blatantly out and obvious like this.

Could you give me few examples of his posts that made you think he is trying too hard?

For the second question, I stated why I didn't agree with using meta. People don't always play the same exact way every time they play town or mafia. Some people play the same no matter what. You are actually kind of fooling yourself if you use meta as a reason to vote one way or another. That is my personal opinion.

I guess I wasn't clear. I was asking why it's a scummy thing to do for NSG to use meta if d1 is low info. I understand that inaccuracy is your concern but what's the difference between having bad reads in the thread and having bad reads from the thread and earlier experiences with the player?
Also, why does it make her lynch-able in your eyes?

Third, that is a difficult question to answer. In a perfect world, a new player would mean a new opportunity. But the problem is that we are under the gun with the deadline and I feel like I had a good read on ofrhz. Some have pointed out that scum wouldn't replace out, but I really feel like that is not true, especially when one is being looked at. Now, do I feel bad for teacher having to come in behind him and have votes already on him because of another player...what it comes down to is this, if my read on ofrhz is right, then it doesn't matter how well teacher plays or comes off town, cause essentially he has the same role. So of ofrhz was scum, then so is teacher.

What makes you think you have a good read on ofrhz? Give me posts where you think that he was leading vulcan's wagon please.

My experience playing mafia was as a game on a community forum with T-Bone and at least one other person from here that I know of. We played one game at a time on two different forums, and I played for maybe close to a year or two. I have done poorly and I have done well...just as I assume everyone else who plays this game has done. I do have some experience from outside of this forum, and it will take some getting to know some of the exacts from this forum, but the game is still essentially the same.

Alright then. Could you give me readlist?

[Scioness Sajj]

oh wow, scioness and nancy, great to see you both!

hi!!! glad to see you, too.

i'm not exactly sure what ircher is doing - it's a pretty far cry from the serious person of just a few pages ago. i feel like he's just throwing things against the wall - not even sure if that's more likely to come from town scared of getting lynched or scum.

why scared and not frustrated?

[Huntress]

Vote Count 1.13

teacher (3) - Nachomamma8, TheRampage, Ircher
vulcan logician (2) - Draynth, nancy
Ircher (2) - teacher, vulcan logician
nancy (1) - northsidegal

Not voting (1) - Scioness Sajj


With nine players alive, it takes five votes to lynch.

New deadline for Day One is Monday, 21st May, 11pm BST

, (in (expired on 2018-05-21 23:00:00)).

[Scioness Sajj]

By the way, I have some statisticcs on my wiki page.... You should go look at them.

winning and losing aside - i believe you are aware that showing people what makes you have the read you do doesn't work as well as telling people why.

if i ask about specific posts from 339 will you elaborate or just shrug me off?

[Scioness Sajj]

How would your worlds change if you knew that my slot was town? Because that is the world we are in right now.

not that much i think? i'd have to reread the game but i didn't really look for associations or who has pushed who and why. it would certainly make me reevaluate my Ircher and ofrhz reads because i have read those slots in about the same way i have read yours (tone and reactions).

would also make me sr NSG - I have high expectation towards her slot.

[Scioness Sajj]

What did you find scummy about ventril?

his readlist was underwhelming and:

Otherwise, after reading the thread the only contradiction I've picked up on that looked unanswered was Draynth not explaining their vote for Etromin

the contradiction part rubs me the wrong way. I guess it is common for new players to look for mistakes and write them off as being scummy but the wording makes me think that he is just scum? his whole little convo with Harambey gives me weird vibes.

[Scioness Sajj]

Last, @Scioness: I actually omitted your slot in my readslist because I had largely overlooked Etromin. I did an ISO dive on you two. Etromin didnt really do much at all other than get a bit defensive about any votes placed on her, but that could be newbness. I liked your entry to the game, but havent gotten enough to really get a sense. I look forward to your answer on the Vulcan question above, and also regarding your Rampage/Ventril/creppy read.

that's fair she wasn't really active. when i replaced in i looked for reasons why she was voting TheRamapge but it turned out to be her RVS vote on crepppy

I have just posted what I think about ventril I don't think I need to talk more about his readlist as we have a replacement now. for my thoughts on TheRampage you will have to wait when i'm done talking with him.

about Vulcan - it gave me slight scum survivalistic vibes. i feel like he is pushing the low hanging fruit narrative too much. he is reading ofrhz for wagoning an easy target and drops his sr on Haambey yet does nothing about it. add to it his tone when he is talking to Nachomamma (that was also on his wagon, probably isn't AI but still bothers me).

[Nachomamma8]

Can you talk more about what you mean by Vulcan pushing a low hanging fruit narrative too much?

[Scioness Sajj]

this is last one for now.

It was less of a read and more of a glance, but it's solidified impressions more than anything. I'm okay with meta usually, but the talk of ofrhz's meta this game ranges from too general to be useful to wildly inaccurate; if it's something you're confident on and you need me to trust, I need more than I'm getting right now.

This feels like you are just waving off the meta argument. I can agree with the examples being too general but why inaccurate? If you are referring to the activity thing - ofrhz activity dropped significantly towards the end of D1 in 721, but I don't think that activity should be a meta example in this case.

1. ofrhz played a lot looser in 721 - he joined the game with 7 players he knew from his previous game; it also got him mislynched;
2. 'hi vote:xxxx' on rvs wagon - that's exactly what happened in 721, i've made a 'hi vote:xxx' in that game i was fossed for it and i flipped scum (i also had my part in mislynching ofrhz).

Currently, I have confident townreads on the group of Nancy/Ircher/Vulcan/Draynth(?). I'm willing to swing on the 4 remaining outside of that group, but I'm happiest lynching one of the NSG/teacher group.

As much as I'm paranoid about NSG I think it is for the best to sort her slot with flips. If she is town she will become useful soon enough, if she is not we can lynch her whenever. Just not a good d1 lynch I think.

What's actually your read on NSG? I don't remember you mentioning her beside that you disagree with the meta thing.

If not {NSG, teacher} then one of {me, TheRampage}, which one and why?

p.edit - guess not the last one. yeah i can give me a moment.

[Nachomamma8]

@Draynth:

Now that the game you played with ofrhz is over, could you talk about the similarities you see in that one compared to this one?

Sure

In the other game we played he sat back a lot, asked questions where he needed clarification on points and generated opinions based on the answers. He was never really in the face of the other players but made sure that his thoughts were known, which he also seems to be doing this game. If I have time I might try read one of his scum games to compare.

I disagree with this meta read.

[Scioness Sajj]

Yeah, I do. I'm not scumreading him for simply misinterpreting my joke. I got into his head a little bit. If he was scum, at that point in the game, he was looking to blend in. He needs to make it look like he's scumhunting.

Here I come along, conf towning on page 1. What up wit dat? That was his opportunity

, so he began "scumreading" me for it. It was almost like

he was so intent on an opportunity to "scumhunt,"

that he failed to even read the post and figure out what its real intent was.

Of course, this is all from my POV. If he is in fact town, then I actually AM scumreading him for the simple misinterpretation of a joke.

Ircher gets predator's characteristics here, which makes vulcan a helpless prey. Also Vulcan talking about scum!Ircher contradicts himself the idea of scum!Ircher blending in?

Two below are quite literal but it seems he likes the narrative you gave him enough to apply it to majority of his wagon?

On paper-no. But D1 being what it is, I guess that's an okay reason to push a wagon to begin with. Kinda

low hanging fruit

though. I could see scum fashioning together frail reasoning along that vein. I could also see town doing it out of D1 cluelessness.

I got the very same impression when I saw it. My gut on that was that it was super scummy.

I was low-hanging fruit, an easy target.

As you noticed before, I'm not kicking and screaming. Perhaps he thought he would

capitalize on my resigned attitude

and slip his vote in there unnoticed.

[Nachomamma8]

1. ofrhz played a lot looser in 721 - he joined the game with 7 players he knew from his previous game; it also got him mislynched;

Exactly, it was a completely different scenario and a completely different game - saying that he had the same town game in both places seems unreasonable to me.

[Ircher]

By the way, I have some statisticcs on my wiki page.... You should go look at them.

winning and losing aside - i believe you are aware that showing people what makes you have the read you do doesn't work as well as telling people why.

if i ask about specific posts from 339 will you elaborate or just shrug me off?

I might elaborate; however, I am

definitely

not explaining every single one of them. Also, I don't have all my explanations ready (because I never wrote them...) so yeah..... I had a reason fyi; I just never wrote it down anywhere for the sake of efficiency and the fact that said elaborations rarely have been seen as useful in my experience.

[TheRampage]

Scioness, I am going to get to your questions and stuff tomorrow. I am a chef and at work tile 930 tonight and then come back for an 8-5 tomorrow. Just not wanting anyone to think I am avoiding or anything.

[nancy]

Other fairly equivalent votes I could see myself making are Alciel and creppy. I don't believe that either have them have done more than the bare minimum to play the game, which is sometimes a sign of scum who is uncomfortable.

This feels like a very weak read esp. coming from the IC. To clarify, I mean that I would expect a more thorough or convincing reason why you. would support wagons on those you named. But, it is early game, so honestly, there isn’t much to go by, but still, I expected some higher quality reads than “they are not doing anything and are likely lurking scum”.

I don't think it's fair to expect the IC to have better quality reads than everyone else just because they are the IC.

[nancy]

Ooh Nacho posted!

I am confused that you voted the person who hasn't posted anything scummy over the two people who you think have posted things that are scummy?

I mostly understand where you're coming from, but I don't understand this.

I meant that if you thought that Alciel and creppy had made underwhelming posts, those are things that are in the game that you can vote them for and say, look at this thing that is in the game I am reading it this way what does anyone else think. Harambey hadn't posted and wasn't in the game, so there was nothing alignment indicative to read, and you talked more about that than the things that were in the game. The other two were just mentioned on the side.

Like, if you're town you're reading into something that you probably should never be reading into, you're implicitly asking others to comment on it, there's no actual content to analyze and it's just conjecture as to whether or not what's happening (harambey scared to post) is real or not. Whereas with the other two slots you have actual content to look at and try to understand. The thought process you need to have as town to be making that read and talking about it over the others as if that will progress the game is a strange one. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

Whereas if you're mafia you're reading into something you shouldn't be but you don't care because all of your reads are lies anyway, it's safer and simpler to read into something that isn't there because if you comment on actual things then you have to substantiate your position and so on. In this world you already know harambey isn't scum scared of posting so you can freely make a read based on nothing, look like you are doing things, then when harambey posts you can say, oh I was wrong, ok, now let's look at other things, and just from that you have this extra bit of fake content from your slot that looks good for you but didn't actually progress the game at all. And if you're lucky in the process you make harambey look bad even though he hadn't even done anything to deserve it and put town that much further away from finding each other and solving the game.

I'm not really reading into this very strongly. It's just one post.

Also on level 1 you are doing the thing where mafia scumread someone for doing the thing they are going out of their way to not do in the hopes that people read the not doing as a towntell. Mmm. I don't really think you play on level 1 though.

It's possible I understand this better after rest, but I don't understand this now.

In Kingdom Hearts mafia, mhsmith said that someone was probably town because they were salty, while mhsmith was making salty-ish posts. The subliminal message there was "townread me for being salty". Is the same concept as this.

[nancy]

Psst, this is how reaction tests work. I already said that's what it was

I mean, you did a thing that you think is unhelpful and that town shouldn't do, if you were telling the truth in your later post. You should probably not do that if you are town.

[nancy]

This game is going to be interesting because now I am going to be a dumpster fire, since I am working upwards of 140 hours. We have more in common now.

I'm glad to hear that. I've been afraid to play mafia simply because I feel guilty not being able to do more in general, but having a dumpster fire sibling is a wonderful feeling.

<3

Am off to work now. I hope I'll have time to catch up over the weekend. I might ISO you before deadline and see if I can sheep you anywhere or avoid lynching your townreads otherwise I will probably vote Ircher.

[nancy]

(I saw you asked me something in your post teacher but I don't have time to read it properly or respond sorry.)

[nancy]

Oh wait, is teacher a main wagon? We should not lynch teacher please.

From what I've seen so far he is putting a lot of content out there and that is never the type of slot I want to kill day 1. I just checked and he only has 11 posts so that might not actually be true but like, I would prioritize killing slots that aren't producing readable content day 1, especially if I didn't have any scumreads I really believed in.

[nancy]

Oh nevermind deadline is in 3 days it's fine. Okay I'll have time to catch up, is good.

[Scioness Sajj]

@Draynth:

Now that the game you played with ofrhz is over, could you talk about the similarities you see in that one compared to this one?

Sure

In the other game we played he sat back a lot, asked questions where he needed clarification on points and generated opinions based on the answers. He was never really in the face of the other players but made sure that his thoughts were known, which he also seems to be doing this game. If I have time I might try read one of his scum games to compare.

I disagree with this meta read.

eh

i think i understand where you are coming from but this is a pretty good summary of ofrhz (and was displayed in all three games i played with him). as generic as it is.

1. ofrhz played a lot looser in 721 - he joined the game with 7 players he knew from his previous game; it also got him mislynched;

Exactly, it was a completely different scenario and a completely different game - saying that he had the same town game in both places seems unreasonable to me.

eh eh
i feel like this is becoming a semantics discussion. nobody said that ofrhz had the same town game here and in 721.
my point in that quote was that there is visible reasons for ofrhz to act slightly different in this game then he acted in 721, i think it is a progression in his playstyle based on experiences not ai change in behavior.

when i was reading this game ofrhz felt right. i don't think he is self-aware enough to be able to fake how he goes around things to the extent that would give me this feeling. i played in both of his previous games, i believe i've made a semi-successful push on him as scum in 721. it is not hard to mislynch him, accidentally or not.

[Scioness Sajj]

I might elaborate; however, I am definitely not explaining every single one of them. Also, I don't have all my explanations ready (because I never wrote them...) so yeah..... I had a reason fyi; I just never wrote it down anywhere for the sake of efficiency and the fact that said elaborations rarely have been seen as useful in my experience.

yeah, understandable.

i'll do it tomorrow.

[Scioness Sajj]

hey, NSG

come and play the game with me please

thanks

--------------

Draynth, what are your reads right now? has anything changed?
Vulcan, some things have happened could you share your thoughts?

[Scioness Sajj]

ehh

VOTE: nancy