Newbie 1867 - Game Over

[Ircher]

Okay, so I just got done rereading this whole damn day 1, and I think that after reading through carefully, I am going to

UNVOTE

My reasoning is that I feel like I misread some of the posts from early and interpreted them in a way that was no conducive to how they were meant. Now, also with rereading all these posts, I feel like Ircher is our best bet for this Day 1 lynch.

I went back and watched him

flip and flop from one bandwagon to another

throughout

this

whole day phase

. I don't think that there is a single person who he hasn't voted for as of yet.

Now, as far as my reads go, I can really only go off of feelings as I have never played with anyone in this game before. Still, here we go,

Teacher, Nacho, Scioness - Town Lean
Vulcan, Nancy - Null
Ircher, northsidegal, Draynth - Scum Lean

As far as northside and Draynth go, I would have to go back and quote some posts that rubbed me the wrong way, but I am okay with moving past them today and going with

VOTE: Ircher

While I am sure you probably have more reasons than simply voting patterns, it seems a huge majority of your read on me seems to be based upon it, which is an issue because your reasoning about watching me "flip and flop from one bandwagon to another" is extremely flawed and objectively (and thus provably) false.

So, let's go through my votes:

Ugh... VOTE: Vulcan

First and foremost, the only other person voting Vulcan at this point is Crepppy. Furthermore, I did give a reasoning in 15 regarding my vote. Thus, one can clearly see that this vote is by no means me joining a Vulcan bandwagon; if I wanted to join a bandwagon, I would be voting Harambey, not Vulcan. Whether or not you agree with the reasoning is an entirely different matter that is irrelevant to the point I am making here.

A Draynth wagon would be worthwhile imo. Not a lot of content and what I consider a somewhat suspicious leap onto my wagon. (Granted, the reasoning is somewhat valid, just not necessarily “fair”.
VOTE: Draynth

Again, how can you consider this a bandwagon vote when no one else is voting Draynth at the time. (See 79). Furthermore, I gave reasons for my vote in the post itself showing that the vote isn't purely me voting a random person. Finally, this vote was in response to Harambey's request that we pressure someone that hasn't been active lately. (Also see 89.)

VOTE: Vulcan
Actually, I really prefer this currently (in light of what I said earlier). Partially because the game state seems to have gotten a standstill plus my vote on Draynth wasn't really accomplishing anything.

This is me basically returning to my earlier scumread that I was voting before 82 (i.e.: Vulcan) after other people point out that Vulcan and Draynth had done about the same. Now explain to me how your argument so far is in any way true.

VOTE: Vulcan
Tbqh, I think we really just need a flip at this point. I don't think we are going to have much more discussion this day.

I'm already voting Vulcan at this point; there is absolutely no reason why you could even consider this vote to be me bandwagoning Vulcan when my vote is already there.

VOTE: NSG

I explained this vote, and no one was voting North as of 250 (and no one voted North in the time between that VC and my vote), so again, how is this me "flip-flopping from one bandwagon to the next"? Also, you said I did that throughout the entire day phase, but for the majority of the day phase (as in like 80% of it), I've been voting Vulcan, so........

VOTE: No Lynch

I didn't explain this vote, but if you consider this vote to be a bandwagon vote, there is something seriously wrong.

VOTE: Teacher

Okay, so Teacher was at 2 votes before this vote (see 300), but I still think your argument has no basis in facts here. I did later explain that this basically amounted to an OMGUS vote; however, I didn't explain that immediately. Still, I want you to explain very clearly to me how this vote fits your interpretation of my voting pattern, because I do not see the connection what so ever.

Town Vibe:
Alciel/North --> 109
Draynth --> 175, 187, 256
Etromin --> 33, 70
Harambey/Nancy --> 35, 45, 152, 156, 313
Nacho --> 164, 165
Ventriloquist Rampage --> 270
Vulcan --> 14, 48, 105, 107, 118, 226, 234, 324

Scum Vibe:
Alciel/North --> 112
Draynth --> 51, 61
Etromin/Scion --> 13, 115, 247, 287, 292, 305
Harambey/Nancy --> 54, 131, 183, 192, 210, 236, 298
Ofrhz/Teacher --> 150, 215, 235, 263, 319
Ventriloquist/Rampage --> 126, 142, 193, 301
Vulcan --> 53, 60

VOTE: Teacher
Yes, I know I'm already voting. This time for realsies.

I'm already voting Teacher, so your point about me joining bandwagons here is irrelevant.

VOTE: Rampage
Your statement is flawed in so many ways..... I'll explain tomorrow (when it's more convenient for me to post.... eh that means this afternoon actually)

According to 454, no one was voting Rampage before my vote. Again, explain how this constitutes "flipping and flopping from one bandwagon to another".

My vote on you is directly related to the fundamental flaws in your scumread on me, and this vote goes beyond a surface level read of that you are simply wrong in your assessment; this feels like a purposeful misrepresentation of my voting pattern which appears to me to have likely come from scum hoping for an easy lynch on me. Like, on the surface, it may not seem that unreasonable, but if you look into the actual facts, it is nothing more than a severe misrepresentation of facts meant to give me ill repute. I would reconsider my read of your post (maybe I misjudged) except for the fact that you proceed to go and post this:

I mean, I am just saying your actions speak for themself. You have flip flopped more then a college frat boy at the beach okay.

(Alongside quoting most of my posts with vote in them.) This clearly indicates to me that either a) you are town that failed to research their case or b) (much more likely imo) scum trying to twist what is true and what is false to get someone lynched.
---
Back to my earlier ideas of town being more likely to commit mistakes than scum: this only applies if the mistake committed is genuine. In other words, the player in question misread the situation and is willing (and open) to alternative viewpoints. This is clearly not the case here as evidenced by 486. This feels like scum purposely warping the situation so as to get a mislynch through.

[Ircher]

Okay, so I actually did feel like elaborating on my teacher read since I was voting them, so here it is below (I'm still not elaborating on any of the other posts unless specifically asked, and only if I feel you are being genuine and reasonable in your request):

150:

VOTE: Harambey180
Weren't you voting for alciel because you found his posts awkward? 54 You're walking back on that now

Okay, so when I was going through and made my initial read here, this pinged me as being scum-motivated as it seemed like Ofrhz was simply bringing up something way in the past just to throw shade at Harambey. Now, reviewing the context, I am not quite so sure about the scum-aligned motives associated with this post. Nonetheless, I still think the wording was weird. As in, why use such a loaded question? (It doesn't help that this question is associated with a vote, which makes me feel Ofrhz was trying very hard to paint this situation as a scum situation.)
---
215:

Why didn't you vote for Ircher in this post? Because based on what you wrote here, this should have been followed up with a vote on him.

Again, the wording here is what makes me suspect otherwise. The question is loaded and makes it look like Ventril is at fault. Like, I honestly, I am not sure how I would reword this to make it sound better, but it still my opinion that this post is more shade-throwing than anything. And, not to defend Ventril or anything, but just because you agree with someone on something doesn't necessarily mean you

personally

need to scumread them or vote them.
---
235:

my b I didn't mean to still be voting for my top townread

This post is just weird. I didn't even notice that they were still voting for their top townread; I just wanted to know whether or not they would join the Vulcan wagon. Like, if they just said yes and changed votes, I would have had zero issue with this post. But as it is, it just really feels weird and feels like scum trying to avoid getting scumread for still voting their townread. I feel like the lol smiley compounds the issue that I have with this post.
---
263:

I do agree that me scumreading vulcan's shallow reads is easy. That doesn't change the fact that they're shallow. Do you think we should be ignoring low-hanging fruit because they're easy? ngl I'm getting deja vu from a previous game, where people were pushing a "too dumb to be scum" argument for not scumreading a guy WHO TURNED OUT TO BE SCUM.

I refer people to mastina's wiki article on balancing possibilities versus probabilities (if that doesn't link to it, just search for it; you should be able to find it easily enough). In the article, mastina basically explains that scum thrive on the possibility of something happening versus the actual likelihood of such event happening. Here, Ofrhz is scumreading Vulcan for his reads based on something that is

possible

(scum that is trying to pull the too scummy to be scum argument) versus what is

probable

, that is, town that is perhaps not the best at this game. (This is by no means intended to be an insult to Vulcan btw.) And before someone calls me a hypocrite on the matter, yes, I made a similar argument against Vulcan early in this game where I balanced Vulcan's alignment on something possible (newbie scum white-knighting for no reason--honestly, I don't know what I was thinking then) versus what was probable (someone making an extended joke that was by no means alignment-indicative). Yes, "low-hanging fruit"

can

be scum; however, the overwhelming majority of the time, they are town, and you should consider that when making your reads.
---
319:

The obvious converse is that I found Ircher's reaction to be way over the top. 73 seemed weak. So did 75, especially given how quickly they backed off it. This one in particular seemed to be trying to spread the scum around to see what would stick. my early bad feelings were not alleviated by the late play - expressing disinterest, a naked vote without explanation on NSG, and then a no-lynch vote(!) seems off - but possibly too attention-centric to be scum? I can see aggressiveness here, and agree with Nacho that may be towny, but it could also be playstyle rather than alignment.

Okay, so the problem I have here is that Teacher here is giving a collection of things that can be more or less defined as "scummy" without really giving regard to the probability of a townie acting in a similar way. Also, the expectation here is too high. 73 was weak, okay, so what? Do you believe that scum actively give out weak reasonings in the

hopes

that it will stick? What about 75? Well, my post is referencing post #43, a pretty early post in the game. It is weak, but, is that an issue given where I was then? I think not. And again, do you believe that scum will (in general) throw weak shade on things in the hopes that it will work. If anything, scum are more likely to plan ahead with their actions. Oh, and about backing off early: explain to me how reevaluating a read given another perspective (i.e.: Nacho's in this case) is scum-motivated.

You then proceed to basically skip all of my mid-game content (which while not by any means spectacular, it matters) and jump to the few posts I've made towards the end of the game. Sure, I expressed disinterest.

How is that scum-motivated?

Yeah, I put a naked vote without explanation on North.

How is that scum-motivated?

I even voted No Lynch, and I agree it is by no means town-motivated (i.e.: it is an anti-town action). The question remains the same though.

How is that scum-motivated?

I want you to seriously consider for a moment the reasons that scum would act the way I have this game, without dwelling on the WIFOM argument of "Too Scummy To Be Scum". Do you believe that scum will consistently plant themselves in the spotlight and throw shade on other players in the hopes that it will stick? Do you believe that scum will consistently perform actions that will draw attention to them and increase the probability that they are lynched. Do you believe that scum act randomly in the hopes that something works? Do you believe that town players are going to play a perfect game. Because at the moment, that is basically what you are suggesting I am doing.

[Huntress]

Vote Count 1.15

Ircher (3) - teacher, vulcan logician, TheRampage
nancy (2) - northsidegal, Scioness Sajj
vulcan logician (1) - Draynth
northsidegal (1) - Nachomamma8
TheRampage (1) - Ircher
Draynth (1) - nancy

Not voting (0) -


With nine players alive, it takes five votes to lynch.

New deadline for Day One is Monday, 21st May, 11pm BST

, (in (expired on 2018-05-21 23:00:00)).

[Ircher]

I'm here. Sorry haven't posted. The game has really picked up. Wow. Lemmie post some reads

(Is this going to happen anytime soonish?)

[nancy]

People voting Ircher should talk about their read there and why they think he is mafia, anyone not voting him should talk about why they aren't as well.

Ircher what is your read on Draynth right now and do you think anything about what I have posted about him?

@Nacho I think you really need to prioritize talking about your nsg read because Ircher is the leading wagon, I'm the counterwagon, there's basically no discussion around either wagon, you're townreading both of us and your scumreads aren't being wagoned in any meaningful way right now, so this is a pretty stinky gamestate. Whenever you have time please focus on this?

[nancy]

@Ircher did you not have time to respond to these?

I still got my eye on Harambe though. Perhaps he clammed up when the wagon gained momentum.

I can see scum!Harambe being like "Oh shit! They took me to L-1 already!" And not knowing what to say.

But we can

always wagon him later if need be

. For now, let's examine Ircher.

First of all, Harambey is an SE meaning they are experienced. Even if you disagree with their initial defense for not speaking, his later posts

clearly

show that he is a competent player. What I mean by this is that the probability that scum!Harambey reacts in the way they did (and are unsure of what to do) is next to zero. It is perhaps about as unrealistic as my expectations regarding your read on crepppy, so I guess it isn't necesssarily impossible.

I'm confused, it looks like you're arguing that harambey is town but you aren't townreading him very strongly?

14. In 107:

There are two ways to interpret my earlier statements. As you have done, putting all sorts of motives in where there are none -OR- as someone who is pretty much clueless, moving his votes around because he has NO INFORMATION to go on.

I am just going to point out that mafia is hardly a black-and-white game, and that there is almost certainly more ways than the two you suggested to interpret your earlier statements.

Could you talk about what you think those other ways are and why you don't think they're the world we are in?

[nancy]

@Scioness I quickly skimmed your ISO looking for reads because you said earlier that you're most interested in keeping your townreads alive. You haven't talked about why Draynth is your strongest townread here, I find that very strange? Why are you townreading him and what do you think about my earlier posts about him? Where is your headspace at re: Ircher? Are you still townreading him?

ugh, i'm tired. sorry TheRampage I will get back to you tomorrow.

I have read everything, read list as of the post I have repped in:

{ofrhz slot, Draynth}
{VL}
{ircher}
{null}
{Nachomamma, NSG}
{TheRampage,}
{Harambey slot}

As much as I'm happy with my catch up this mostly a rl based on pings and impressions. Draynth is my strongest townread, ofrhz is a little lower but I didn't want to add another tier. The one below null tier is as much of a light sr as it is me being impressed with both players, I guess, more below.

vulcan - it was easy for me to understand his thoughts, but I don't like 260 so I will probably be back to this slot.
ircher - seems like upset/frustrated town tbh, some of his posts are ??? but none of them really strike me as scummy.
Nachomamma - idk, his posts pre Harambey's call to readlists seemed like a standard IC work to me, maybe i'm just wary of him, but those few first pages are overshadowing later posts. i only really like his read on vulcan it was iirc.
NSG - a ghost slot, probably the only slot I'd policy if she keeps not contributing.
therampage - mostly read on the previous player in this slot.
Harambey - the majority of his posts ping me the wrong way. I feel like the only reason for me to town read this slot would be his effort to keep the game alive.

Those are thoughts from on top of my head, i will explain more in-depth tomorrow if needed.

[nancy]

You didn't talk about why ofrhz/teacher is town either, which I don't understand at all. If you care most about your townreads at this stage then why haven't you talked about your two strongest ones?

[Draynth]

Man I have just had 0 time for mafia recently, sorry guys.
That being said I should have lots of time this week to post and catch up and make my reads known.
We only have a day and a half left though so need to come together on a lynch soon.
I see people no longer want to lynch Vulcan, that's fine.
UNVOTE: Vulcan Logician
Since it's a useful vote.

Nancy I saw you mentioned something about me unvoting Ventriloquist since nobody else was joining the wagon, it was because there is no point in me sitting on a pointless lynch in the hopes that with 3 days left people change their minds on the slot.

Can anyone quickly sum up / point out post numbers for why they want to lynch Ircher and Nancy? (Two leading wagons as of this post)

I'll try to respond to some of the questions directed at me throughout the day.

[Draynth]

Also that should say useless after the unvote

[nancy]

I didn't think that it made sense that you got a scumread on Ventriloquist, did nothing about it, then unvoted him because he wasn't a viable wagon and voted someone else who was a viable wagon without commenting on his wagon, saying why you scumread him, or doing anything else really that would show me why you thought he should be lynched. You've not really taken stances on things this game for the most part and the stances you have taken haven't seemed like real things that you've thought about. Really the only way to help me get a correct read on you here if you're town is to talk about where you're at with the game, talk about your reads, especially your read on Ircher and any town reads you may have, and place a vote with reasoning on why the slot you are voting is mafia.

If you think there's anything I've misunderstood then talk about that too if you like, but really your focus right now should be on doing those things that I just mentioned if that is at all a reasonable request. If it isn't, then do whatever you think is the best way to show that you're town that you know of. I'm not going to meta you and I don't really care about your or anyone's meta very much in this game so falling back on that isn't going to help me understand you or read you better here.

[nancy]

Spoiler: @teacher

I genuinely dont know how to read your style. You have jumped down multiple slots with posts like this, that have at least ten questions, but you havent really offered much yourself (explaining that you havent caught up or are still on page 2). I get that this is the way you hunt, but keep in mind everyone else has to be hunting and we need to sort you.

I think you might be surprised how much I weave my own thoughts into my questioning. I don't ask leading questions, like multiple people in this game including yourself seem to think I have been, but I do sometimes talk about what I think in between questions. I'm not expecting anything of anyone that I wouldn't expect of myself. If you have questions for me, ask away and I'll respond. I love being talked to. Am not stopping you from doing things to sort me.

Indeed, this is one point Im inclined to agree with Ircher on - it seems like you ask these questions in order to scorn the answers, as you did with Ircher, Scioness, and are likely to do with me.

If I scorned anyone's answers then I'm sorry, it wasn't intentional. Unless you mean the stuff with Ircher about playing like awaclus, in which case yes that was intentional. If you think that disagreeing with someone is scorning them, I don't know what to say. They're not the same at all and that doesn't feel arguable. You could be misreading my tone, that happens a lot. People tend to think I'm way more hostile than I actually am and I'm pretty far beyond the point of trying to change how I talk to help because people will either get it or they won't and I don't have the energy to bring everyone in softly. (Especially this game where my time is so precious.)

Scum wants both (1) to out PRs, so wouldnt return to a slot that has had L-1 twice

My slot hasn't claimed, if Scioness is mafia she has no way of knowing whether I have a role. This is a really ugly line of thought from you. That aside, have mafia voted solely or primarily in the interested of outing roles, in your experience? Because that has not been my experience ever, not even in setups where outing town's roles is extremely important for mafia. I would really like to know why you think this is a thing because I don't find that to be very believable as a way of thinking about how mafia vote.

(2) to have a mislynch go through so will likely try to convince others if they are going somewhere that has few votes.

The only thing scum need to do to have a mislynch go through is keep wagons off their partners, no? Unless I am misunderstanding you, your reasoning here only really makes sense if you think that one of the other wagons is Scioness' partner, because otherwise she would have no need to convince anyone.

I saw this vote as towny. If you dont, you dont. I was explaining my reads so everyone could assess them and come to their own conclusion.

I mean, reads in this game are based on reasoning. The point of talking is to go over that reasoning and try to figure out if it is right or wrong and how much we should believe in it either way. If you didn't talk about reasoning with anyone then you wouldn't have any reliable way of figuring out if they are real or not. If I think your reasoning is bad I will tell you this and I would hope that you would reciprocate. That doesn't mean that I'm right and you're wrong. If you're town then you have an extra voice, I'm town and I already have your extra voice, at least on this one thing. I just have to figure out if it's a town one. If you're town you have to do the same.

Do you townread anyone who gets attention?

Somewhat, particularly on Day 1. If a spot is providing posts that *feel* genuine or analysis that makes sense (Whether or not I agree), I dont want to lynch them because I think thats hard for scum to do day-over-day. Scioness has provided sensible analysis and posts have felt genuine - that is the difference between her and Ircher who have both gotten attention, and the basis for my different reads on two of the slots that have gotten attention.

Could you quote one or two of Scioness' posts that you like the most and talk about why more specifically? Could you do the same for Ircher if you have time? That would be super super helpful.

What in particular about Scioness's analysis is good:

I liked her entry asking questions and stating her dislike of the vulcan wagon. I like her asking questions of lots of slots. I like that she made the effort to reread the game and try to understand the patterns and put out her own analysis (cough). What dont you like?

What specifically about her stating her dislike of the vulcan wagon did you like? That's a fairly generalized take and I don't understand what you're reading into there. Did you just like her questions because they existed, or did you think there was anything particularly insightful about them or something else? I don't remember saying I disliked anything at the time so I don't understand that why question exists sorry. Am presuming you think that because I didn't understand something and was asking you about it that I disagreed with it, which is silly of you.

Why does [teacher] think Vulcan is trying to avoid attention/Has Vulcan suggested he knows Ircher's alignment

: I answered this in the quote you are questioning. I had just made a rather long post saying WHY I scumread Ircher and voting him in 419. If I were in Town!Vulcan's shoes, I would have written a post with MY OWN case and voting Ircher. I found him simply voting and requesting someone else (me) to be potentially based in scum!-avoidance motivations.[/list]

I don't think this is good reasoning because other people often don't do what we would do and that doesn't make them scum. You should be trying to understand vulcan's mindset and reading into his behavior through that, not thinking that he is scummy for behaving in ways that may well be entirely natural for him even if they aren't for you.

[Scioness Sajj]

Okay, so I just got done rereading this whole damn day 1, and I think that after reading through carefully, I am going to

UNVOTE

My reasoning is that I feel like I misread some of the posts from early and interpreted them in a way that was no conducive to how they were meant. Now, also with rereading all these posts, I feel like Ircher is our best bet for this Day 1 lynch. I went back and watched him flip and flop from one bandwagon to another throughout this whole day phase. I don't think that there is a single person who he hasn't voted for as of yet.

Now, as far as my reads go, I can really only go off of feelings as I have never played with anyone in this game before.

Still, here we go,

why do you think moving a vote often is more likely to come from scum?
underlined - i thought you said you are against metareading?

Teacher, Nacho, Scioness - Town Lean
Vulcan, Nancy - Null
Ircher, northsidegal, Draynth - Scum Lean

As far as northside and Draynth go, I would have to go back and quote some posts that rubbed me the wrong way, but I am okay with moving past them today and going with

VOTE: Ircher

explain to me your teacher, scioness and nancy reads please

you've forgot about 400

[Scioness Sajj]

Nancy, if you are around talk to me about NSG. It seems that you know each other, what do you think of her in this game?

[Scioness Sajj]

I'm here. Sorry haven't posted. The game has really picked up. Wow. Lemmie post some reads

(Is this going to happen anytime soonish?)

we are getting really close to deadline so any activity from you would be appreciated, talk to us when you are catching up or something

[Scioness Sajj]

Nancy, if you are around talk to me about NSG. It seems that you know each other, what do you think of her in this game?

actually, i'd love to hear from anybody that has any thoughts about NSG

[nancy]

I think Scioness might actually be mafia.

I think the way her tone has shifted since she replaced in something that makes more sense if she's scum. Because of the way that mafia have to put themselves into a particular mindset in order to play the game as if they are town they end up having to fake a lot of the more subtle emotional and mental aspects of the game and those are things that affect tone. It's very difficult to maintain consistently (unless you're Regfan and sound like a robot no matter what). Town don't have to fake any of this and as a result their tone tends to be very stable across long spans of the game in various gamestates and situations which can be a pretty reliable towntell.

I think her reads in 376 make very little sense coming from her as town. She has stated that townreads are her priority for day 1 and she has two strong townreads on ofrhz/teacher but doesn't talk about either of those reads at all there and I think she would want to if she were town.

She says she has no actual read on TheRampage but has him as a weak/moderate (?) scumread which makes no sense whatsoever if she's town when she hadn't talked about Ventriloquist earlier in her ISO and she had interacted with TheRampage more than anyone else in the game at that point. Her read on Nacho is "maybe I'm just wary of him" which has nothing to do with his alignment or his content this game, as well as "his early posts are IC busywork-y" yet "his early posts make his later posts look small". Those two thoughts don't make sense together. And she's townreading vulcan but she says the only thing she liked about Nacho is his scumread on vulcan, that doesn't make any sense as a real thought from her.

How would your worlds change if you knew that my slot was town? Because that is the world we are in right now.

not that much i think? i'd have to reread the game but i didn't really look for associations or who has pushed who and why. it would certainly make me reevaluate my Ircher and ofrhz reads because i have read those slots in about the same way i have read yours (tone and reactions).

would also make me sr NSG - I have high expectation towards her slot.

She also says here that if I were town she would scumread northsidegal because she has high expectations of her. I don't understand how that is ever a real thought that town has. There are no associatives between our two slots, northsidegal's content or lack of content has nothing to do with me, Scioness' read on me has nothing to do with northsidegal, and her expectations of northsidegal have nothing to do with me or her read on me. The thought makes a lot of sense coming from mafia though, since if she starts townreading me then she is going to need to substitute someone else into her scumreads in order to still seem like she is solving.

Her vulcan read is also pretty gross? Her initial stance on him when she came in was that she didn't want to lynch him, which came at a point where he was under a bunch of pressure, but the extent of her read on him was "I liked his opening". I think it makes a lot of sense from mafia there to take that kind of stance since it looks like you're not going for the easy pickings without actually doing anything to stop the wagon or really involving yourself in the discussion. By the time she gets around to talking about him at a point where his wagon is losing steam she's losing her townread because of one post which makes her earlier take not feel very real to me.

I don't really think her read on harambey makes sense or the way she has talked about her read on my slot. Her initial vote on me seems to be because she wasn't sufficiently impressed with my content in the first day or two after replacing in to change her scumread on harambey, and she didn't think there were any other interesting wagons happening, but when she talks to me she speaks as though she's completely convinced that I'm mafia.

I think the way she responded to me in that wall makes more sense if she's mafia because the way she is responding with hostility makes it seem like she felt threatened but I don't really think she would feel threatened there if she were town and I don't think she would respond with that kind of hostility even if she did.

Her read as she states it in 473 is essentially that she thinks harambey is mafia because he was trying to act like he didn't care about the RVS wagon on him and because he didn't do more to discuss that wagon when he could have. I don't think the second thing is scummy and I don't think the first thing is something that Scioness would really believe and scumread. It's an incredibly stretchy read and Scioness doesn't seem at all doubtful about it and I think she would if she were town.

And her last little bit asking Ircher to talk about his read before she does makes more sense from her if she's mafia because she's townreading Ircher and shouldn't feel worried that he is sheeping her read there so there's not really a decent reason if she's town for not just talking about it before him? If she's tired then not talking about it is fine but she's asked Ircher to elaborate before she does and there's obvious motivation there for mafia to wait for town to say things then to latch on to them, especially if they're feeling inarticulate (and I think that post is overall pretty inarticulate).

Someone tell me if I'm crazy.

[Scioness Sajj]

o boy

[nancy]

Nancy, if you are around talk to me about NSG. It seems that you know each other, what do you think of her in this game?

I don't have a read on her yet, sorry.

You should talk about Ircher.

[Scioness Sajj]

I was about to replay to your 464. Why should I talk about Ircher? Do you want me to share something specific or do you want me to spew everything I think about him?

Nancy, can you promise me that you have read everything that has been said this game? I have skimmed through 514 but I already feel like you didn't.

[nancy]

You should talk about him because you're townreading him I think and he's the leading wagon and no one is talking about him and I'm scumreading you and I want you to talk about things. Spewing everything you think about him would be amazing.

I've read up to page 9 and I just read your ISO. I probably missed some things in there because it's super late and I'm exhausted and out of time but I hope I didn't miss anything very important and I don't think I did? I read your ISO because 376 bothered the shit out of me when I found it yesterday and I wanted to see what else you had done. I think I actually saw it when you initially posted it but I didn't really have time to read it back then.

Goodnight!

[nancy]

(You should also talk about Draynth.)

[Scioness Sajj]

you've forgot to vote me i think?

I've read up to page 9 and I just read your ISO. I probably missed some things in there because it's super late and I'm exhausted and out of time but I hope I didn't miss anything very important and I don't think I did? I read your ISO because 376 bothered the shit out of me when I found it yesterday and I wanted to see what else you had done. I think I actually saw it when you initially posted it but I didn't really have time to read it back then.

well some of your points in 516 you are basing on a thing that i didn't say but i'm pretty sure i did, i will get to it today.
have 367 bothered you before or after you have made your readlist? if before then why would you even make a readlist in the first place if you have no idea what's happening around you?

honestly, i don't want to use activity/time as an argument in this game especially, but it is pretty hard talking to you. there is no way knowing what you have read and what you haven't. i thoguht it would be reasonable of me to expect that you have read everything that's been posted since you have replaced in but it's not. i feel like talking to you requires me to do all the work for you and i don't think that repeating the content is doing the game any favors.
meh, i guess the way you are catching up doesn't mash up well with how little time we have.

[TheRampage]

My read and vote on Ircher is because of how he has voted. He has been very inconsistent and has basically been the boy who cried wolf the entire game. To me he has drawn a lot of attention to himself. I feel like he is scum trying to portray that he is just playing as a very bad townie. He was one of my top scum reads while I was voting teacher and his predecessor; but because I had misread some of the original players comments, I felt like I had a very good read on him and wanted to lynch him first. Now that I feel my read was wrong because it was based off of my misreading said comments, I feel like Ircher is the next best bet for scum. Like, I feel that if I were to take my vote off and some one else vote for him, his vote would switch to that person. He has been very vocal and spread accusations to several players to try and see if he can't get a wagon going to save his own ass. And now that he is at L-2, he is going crazy overboard trying to defend himself. He says my logic for voting him is flawed, but he never even explains why he votes for who he votes. He acts as if we should never question him because he is town. Well, personally, I don't think he is. I think he is scum that is squirming because he was way too active and got caught, and now he is trying to break free and get to night.

[vulcan logician]

I'm here. Sorry haven't posted. The game has really picked up. Wow. Lemmie post some reads

(Is this going to happen anytime soonish?)

Yeah. I just reread your ISO and I have some residual doubts about voting for you. Namely that if you are town, you will be an asset once more information comes through the pipe.

I don't know how to take your no lynch vote. It certainly seems like something scum would never do. There is a case for town!Ircher to made. Looking over your ISO you are behaving erratically. It does suggest that you are not scum, but by the same token, you are not being methodical like a townie.

Your wagon has momentum at this point. Though a mislynches aren't preferable by any means, there are sometimes advantages to them. For instance, if a lot of players are scumreading a town player, that's a good source of misdirection for scum to use throughout the game. Scum can hide in the background whilst the spotlight is shone upon a hapless townie.

When it was happening to me, I reasoned that "getting me out of the way" would have a positive attached to it. Not saying that should happen with you, Ircher, but the momentum behind your wagon is strong enough that you could be today's lynch, but feeble enough that it probably won't happen with out scum adding at least one vote to it. Then again, there is the real possibility that you are scum.

This is the first time I have ever played 2 mafia games at once. It's too much for my schedule. I won't ever put myself in this situation again. Lesson learned. I've been flaky so far. But I'm gonna do a reread of the latter half of the thread TODAY posting about things that ping me along the way. Hopefully that will help the game advance and make up for my lack of participation.