Open 728: Sharing is Caring (GAME OVER)

[the worst]

The Worst, do you have any reads right now?

wat

[Zoronos]

The Worst, do you have any reads right now?

@HWS I'm vibing your reads. I actually like NSG's case for town, just not sure she's got her guy yet.

VOTE: Blackstar

Far be it for me to interject, but uhhh that seems a bit of a redundant question in light of 123?
Or are you asking if the_worst's prior reads have lapsed / changed since that post was made?

[BlackStar]

The Worst, do you have any reads right now?

@HWS I'm vibing your reads. I actually like NSG's case for town, just not sure she's got her guy yet.

VOTE: Blackstar

Far be it for me to interject, but uhhh that seems a bit of a redundant question in light of 123?
Or are you asking if the_worst's prior reads have lapsed / changed since that post was made?

I meant any other reads

[Zoronos]

Her case on jjh is on point, making such a strong scumread this early is something I don't expect coming from scum

So, her case, as I understand it, is currently predicated on the notion that JJH is white-knighting me.

The last we heard from ofrhz was this:

Wow, I didn't expect the game to start today

VOTE: zoronos

why zoronos?

Do you feel that falls into the same play pattern that jjh is being accused of, or is his question different? That is, do you feel ofrhz was asking a loaded question, or a non-loaded question?

[the worst]

The Worst, do you have any reads right now?

@HWS I'm vibing your reads. I actually like NSG's case for town, just not sure she's got her guy yet.

VOTE: Blackstar

Far be it for me to interject, but uhhh that seems a bit of a redundant question in light of 123?
Or are you asking if the_worst's prior reads have lapsed / changed since that post was made?

I meant any other reads

Nothing strong no. I tend to spew what thought I have itt

[the worst]

What are your reads Blacky?

[BlackStar]

Hitalt, pint and something smart seem town to me. I'm not sure about anyone else yet

[pinturicchio]

Her case on jjh is on point, making such a strong scumread this early is something I don't expect coming from scum

So, her case, as I understand it, is currently predicated on the notion that JJH is white-knighting me.

The last we heard from ofrhz was this:

Wow, I didn't expect the game to start today

VOTE: zoronos

why zoronos?

Do you feel that falls into the same play pattern that jjh is being accused of, or is his question different? That is, do you feel ofrhz was asking a loaded question, or a non-loaded question?

Nah ofrhz seems to be just asking, like "hey I don't get that, could you explain?", jjh went further. But you're reducing NSG case only to the white knighting thing and there's more, specifically the inconsistency about RVS; that part is what I most liked.

[Zoronos]

I am definitely reducing the case to that, and on purpose. I feel it's the strongest point of the case. But let's go into more detail -
In depth Explanation:

Spoiler: thoughts

Her case had basically four points spread between 104 and 105

I had trouble following / agreeing with her 105. She calls out JJH's 41 (a vote on Pintu) for being 'essentially RVS', but she herself had voted Pintu in 37. I specifically commented on her vote in 44 with my impression / guess at why she might be voting him. So, if her vote in 37 is a legit strike, why is 41 essentially RVS? Is it the inclusion of the phrase 'Mr Blue Sky' when she had naked voted?
Alternatively, she is purposefully RVS'ing at that stage, and assumes JJH is as well, and the problem isn't the RVS vote itself, but the hypocrisy as contrasted to JJH's prior comments about getting out of RVS.

NSG had notes that she had trouble following JJH's progression when he voted me in 17 -> unvoted me in 24. I personally had no trouble understanding JJH's line of thinking. I didn't really explain my question until after his initial answer, so I can see a progression of 'That's a dumb question, vote' to 'Ooohhhh that's not a dumb question unvote'. He said as much in 21. If I put myself in JJH's shoes, it doesn't take me a huge struggle to figure out why he might react as he did in that sequence if he believes we 'should' still be in RVS.

Her last point, that she didn't get why JJH brought up that NSG was more interested in him than in the wagon on her does give me some pause, but I don't know what to make of either side of it.
JJH said "Worth noting that NSG is more interested in me than her wagon?". Which doesn't seem like a question, but has a question mark in it. So I'm not really sure who it was directed to in the first place. So I can totally understand NSG's confusion about it, but I'm a little on the 'so what' side of things there. I mostly ignored the wagon on me, as ruru noted a couple pages ago, so I'm not super surprised that NSG ignored the wagon on her, nor am I super surprised that it got brought up (again, ruru brought up that I ignored the wagon on me). The only thing about it that perplexes me is the question mark.

So, in essence, I believe the 'JJH is buddying / white knighting Zoronos' is the best data point of the case, and one I was myself somewhat concerned about. HWS noted similar slightly later in the thread as well. Ergo, that's the part of the case I wanted to talk about.

If you'll indulge me, lets move on to that last point. Do you think there's anything incriminating on either side of JJH noting and / or asking about Maria's lack of interest in the wagon? What do you think - innocent notation / chin scratch + "hmmm..." noise into the thread, or a nefarious attempt to redirect attention off of himself?

I'm not sure if I answered your question here about the RVS inconsistency. Did what I wrote in the spoiler make clear my thoughts on that 'inconsistency' or do we need to talk about it some more?

[northsidegal]

Oi NSG, we can talk in real time or I can just tell you why you're wrong

sure, let's chat.

[northsidegal]

zoronos, tell me about your read on pintu. just talk about it, any thoughts you have, anything you've been doing to sort him, etc.

[Almost50]

Mod interjection: It feels weird to have this specific player list in a game and not one FoSing

me

.

[the worst]

dayvog: amlsott50

[pinturicchio]

I am definitely reducing the case to that, and on purpose. I feel it's the strongest point of the case. But let's go into more detail -
In depth Explanation:

Spoiler: thoughts

Her case had basically four points spread between 104 and 105

I had trouble following / agreeing with her 105. She calls out JJH's 41 (a vote on Pintu) for being 'essentially RVS', but she herself had voted Pintu in 37. I specifically commented on her vote in 44 with my impression / guess at why she might be voting him. So, if her vote in 37 is a legit strike, why is 41 essentially RVS? Is it the inclusion of the phrase 'Mr Blue Sky' when she had naked voted?
Alternatively, she is purposefully RVS'ing at that stage, and assumes JJH is as well, and the problem isn't the RVS vote itself, but the hypocrisy as contrasted to JJH's prior comments about getting out of RVS.

NSG had notes that she had trouble following JJH's progression when he voted me in 17 -> unvoted me in 24. I personally had no trouble understanding JJH's line of thinking. I didn't really explain my question until after his initial answer, so I can see a progression of 'That's a dumb question, vote' to 'Ooohhhh that's not a dumb question unvote'. He said as much in 21. If I put myself in JJH's shoes, it doesn't take me a huge struggle to figure out why he might react as he did in that sequence if he believes we 'should' still be in RVS.

Her last point, that she didn't get why JJH brought up that NSG was more interested in him than in the wagon on her does give me some pause, but I don't know what to make of either side of it.
JJH said "Worth noting that NSG is more interested in me than her wagon?". Which doesn't seem like a question, but has a question mark in it. So I'm not really sure who it was directed to in the first place. So I can totally understand NSG's confusion about it, but I'm a little on the 'so what' side of things there. I mostly ignored the wagon on me, as ruru noted a couple pages ago, so I'm not super surprised that NSG ignored the wagon on her, nor am I super surprised that it got brought up (again, ruru brought up that I ignored the wagon on me). The only thing about it that perplexes me is the question mark.

So, in essence, I believe the 'JJH is buddying / white knighting Zoronos' is the best data point of the case, and one I was myself somewhat concerned about. HWS noted similar slightly later in the thread as well. Ergo, that's the part of the case I wanted to talk about.

If you'll indulge me, lets move on to that last point. Do you think there's anything incriminating on either side of JJH noting and / or asking about Maria's lack of interest in the wagon? What do you think - innocent notation / chin scratch + "hmmm..." noise into the thread, or a nefarious attempt to redirect attention off of himself?

I'm not sure if I answered your question here about the RVS inconsistency. Did what I wrote in the spoiler make clear my thoughts on that 'inconsistency' or do we need to talk about it some more?

Well there's a phrase I usually use in my life that seems to be good to use now: not because's she's being hypocritical means that she's wrong. I get your point, but jjh was inconsistent at that point, and along with two other things that could be taken as scummy, NSG case makes sense, and makes sense coming from town, hense the townread coming from me.

Now about the last thing you said, I'll assume Maria is NSG? Something_Smart already said what I believe: an RVS wagon gives no info, neither from the people voting, nor from the voted. What do you think could be a conclusion about an RVS wagon? Like, saying NSG ignored RVS votes on her is like saying my case on Mathdino having short arms could be a good point.

[jjh927]

Chatting is my preferred option here.


We've never played a game together before? Except for that marathon, which doesn't count. Right now, I'm not sure whether or not you're scum, but we'll get to that-

If you don't get why I voted Zor, you don't understand the whole making a mountain out of a molehill thing. My general RVS philosophy involves making votes and trying to make them convey more pressure than they reasonably should, as this helps to generate content. This was the purpose of the Zor vote. This is why I said it was serious when it really wasn't that serious.

I'm not sure if you were scouting me out as potential lhf or if that's even your kind of jam as scum. I kinda like the look of the motivation behind your case but there's the distinct possibility of it instead being the result of this, which was what I was kinda conscious of. You were also a pretty big rvs wagon and would be looking for somewhere for people to shift votes to when things became serious. There are at least a couple of people in the game who probably understand that I'm not actually easy ot mislynch at all, but I sometimes get wagoned early on by people who haven't played with me before. It's difficult for me to see town or scum motivation in that, especially with how long it's been since I actually played an RVS.

Pintu into blackstar is a similar coming out of RVS thing with trying to place people with the aid of pressure to induce content. That said, neither really directly went anywhere.


If you are primarily scumreading me because my RVS is janky then meta me

[ruru]

I mostly ignored the wagon on me, as ruru noted a couple pages ago, so I'm not super surprised that NSG ignored the wagon on her, nor am I super surprised that it got brought up (again, ruru brought up that I ignored the wagon on me).

Mmmmmm

Interesting

The actual reason I was talking about the wagon is kind of the opposite. I feel like your reaction was to try really hard to post gamesolve-ly in a way that seemed a bit incongruous with the gamestate to me. Like if you're Serious Wagoned on d2 or something then a common town response is to post your notes and say who should die when you flip green or whatever. It felt like an rvs version of that almost?

Like compared to your other games you weren't trying nearly that hard on page 1-2 but this game you were super serious and even actively trying to discourage others from rvsing

The latter could potentially be a scum strategy in the sense that posting reasonable logic that happens to be +EV for scum is the easiest thing for scum to do, and just acting natural when there's nothing to talk about is one of the harder things for scum to do (at least it is for me personally as scum)

Do you think it's inaccurate that you were trying harder because of the votes on you?

[Zoronos]

Well there's a phrase I usually use in my life that seems to be good to use now: not because's she's being hypocritical means that she's wrong. I get your point, but jjh was inconsistent at that point, and along with two other things that could be taken as scummy, NSG case makes sense, and makes sense coming from town, hense the townread coming from me.

Now about the last thing you said, I'll assume Maria is NSG? Something_Smart already said what I believe: an RVS wagon gives no info, neither from the people voting, nor from the voted. What do you think could be a conclusion about an RVS wagon? Like, saying NSG ignored RVS votes on her is like saying my case on Mathdino having short arms could be a good point.

Fuck I said Maria when I meant NSG and those are entirely different players. I have no idea why I wrote that. Previous game playerlist sitting in my head still I guess.

So, what part of JJH's posts were inconsistent? Do you think that both he and NSG were RVS voting, which leads to an inconsistency with his earlier statement on dislike of RVS? Help me see your understanding of the evidence.

This response is a bit short because I'm working on responding in greater depth to NSG's question to me above: Short version - I don't think it matters at all that NSG ignored the RVS votes. I think it's entirely NAI. That's why I didn't bother asking about it, I don't think there's value to be gleaned.

However, I want your interpretation of JJH's question about NSG's wagon. Do *you* think JJH was trying to redirect heat off himself with that question, or was innocently pondering a thread event? Because if the former, that's a good point of evidence in NSG's case on him. If the later, it's not.

[northsidegal]

If you don't get why I voted Zor, you don't understand the whole making a mountain out of a molehill thing. My general RVS philosophy involves making votes and trying to make them convey more pressure than they reasonably should, as this helps to generate content. This was the purpose of the Zor vote. This is why I said it was serious when it really wasn't that serious.

i'm fine with you saying your vote was serious when it wasn't as a method to get out of RVS: what i don't understand is, given that philosophy, then unvoting and immediately placing a random vote that doesn't accomplish towards that purpose.

it doesn't seem like an actual sort, or perhaps it's too easy of one - once you understood what he said, unvoting and just calling him town and moving on to an RVS vote makes no sense to me, especially as reflected on later with your vote on blackstar / defense of zor. were you really that confident in him being town just from what he said there?

explain your blackstar scumread?

I'm not sure if you were scouting me out as potential lhf or if that's even your kind of jam as scum. I kinda like the look of the motivation behind your case but there's the distinct possibility of it instead being the result of this, which was what I was kinda conscious of. You were also a pretty big rvs wagon and would be looking for somewhere for people to shift votes to when things became serious. There are at least a couple of people in the game who probably understand that I'm not actually easy ot mislynch at all, but I sometimes get wagoned early on by people who haven't played with me before. It's difficult for me to see town or scum motivation in that, especially with how long it's been since I actually played an RVS.

i don't know what "lhf" means, but why not bring

any

of this up when i asked you what you made of it?

[Zoronos]

zoronos, tell me about your read on pintu. just talk about it, any thoughts you have, anything you've been doing to sort him, etc.

As noted (142), I was a bit suspicious when he dove directly into PR-discussion-time after ruru opened the floor on that topic, since he hadn't given any alignment sorting reads. So, I started at lean-scum.
I figured I'd throw him some rope (143) and see what he did with it.

He didn't come back with any scum reads in 170, but given what HitAlt and the_worst said about his meta in 148-149, I figured it was unlikely both were lying to me, so I wanted to given him a little benefit of the doubt and talk through what I thought was the more controversial of his two positions. The ruru town read I felt was a bit safer / less controversial than the NSG town read. I agreed with it, as I had noted earlier in the thread, so talking about it would play both into bias from agreement and give him the opportunity to just parrot back my own thoughts if he was scum, making that discussion less productive regardless of his alignment.

Ergo, the follow up on his assessment of your case, IMO, is the more productive line here.
His 172 suggests that he is town reading because he felt you were putting yourself far out ahead of the crowd ("such a strong scum read this early"), and that act of proactive sorting / controversial sorting made you town.
The obvious compare / contrast there was ofrhz's response to blackstar, imo. Scum-Pintu would be more likely to have ignored what (at least to my read) was a loaded question from ofrhz since he didn't really care about your underlying evidence (the white knight argument), whereas town-Pintu would have also looked at ofrhz's response to BlackStar and said "Ah ha! More of what NSG saw in JJH!", imo.

His response suggests he disagrees with my underlying assessment; that ofrhz's question was loaded / had intent, and he redirects to a different part of the case than what I thought was most salient. So, I want to keep exploring this line of questioning.
He's seeing the evidence quite differently than I am, and is focusing on completely different parts of your case than the one I agree with. That's a bit perplexing to me, so I'm trying to narrow down where the inconsistencies are sprouting from.

[jjh927]

I voted pintu because I wasn't voting anyone and it couldn't do any harm

I don't really scumread blackstar, so to speak. Maybe a lean? I voted because he was scumreading Zor, and the reasoning on that (specifically having two reasons, one being a crappy RVS reason and the other being a crappy attempted reason) is bad. And I'm still voting there because nothing better has shown up.

LHF is low hanging fruit. Basically, I think it's possible you were trying to figure out if you could mislynch me or not as opposed to trying to place me, and bringing that up before seeing where you went with your fixation on me wasn't gonna help there.

[northsidegal]

Do you feel that falls into the same play pattern that jjh is being accused of, or is his question different? That is, do you feel ofrhz was asking a loaded question, or a non-loaded question?

asking "why zoronos" is leagues different from what jjh did. it's an attempt to understand, not an attempt to defend you while attacking blackstar. i'm really not sure how you look at them as being comparable.

[northsidegal]

I had trouble following / agreeing with her 105. She calls out JJH's 41 (a vote on Pintu) for being 'essentially RVS', but she herself had voted Pintu in 37. I specifically commented on her vote in 44 with my impression / guess at why she might be voting him. So, if her vote in 37 is a legit strike, why is 41 essentially RVS? Is it the inclusion of the phrase 'Mr Blue Sky' when she had naked voted?

41 is essentially RVS because jjh had no apparent serious reasoning for voting pintu and, as he has now confirmed, no non-stated reason for voting him. my vote was naked, but it wasn't RVS.

Alternatively, she is purposefully RVS'ing at that stage, and assumes JJH is as well, and the problem isn't the RVS vote itself, but the hypocrisy as contrasted to JJH's prior comments about getting out of RVS.

NSG had notes that she had trouble following JJH's progression when he voted me in 17 -> unvoted me in 24. I personally had no trouble understanding JJH's line of thinking. I didn't really explain my question until after his initial answer, so I can see a progression of 'That's a dumb question, vote' to 'Ooohhhh that's not a dumb question unvote'. He said as much in 21. If I put myself in JJH's shoes, it doesn't take me a huge struggle to figure out why he might react as he did in that sequence if he believes we 'should' still be in RVS.

what i don't understand is his behavior after that.

Her last point, that she didn't get why JJH brought up that NSG was more interested in him than in the wagon on her does give me some pause, but I don't know what to make of either side of it.
JJH said "Worth noting that NSG is more interested in me than her wagon?". Which doesn't seem like a question, but has a question mark in it. So I'm not really sure who it was directed to in the first place. So I can totally understand NSG's confusion about it, but I'm a little on the 'so what' side of things there. I mostly ignored the wagon on me, as ruru noted a couple pages ago, so I'm not super surprised that NSG ignored the wagon on her, nor am I super surprised that it got brought up (again, ruru brought up that I ignored the wagon on me). The only thing about it that perplexes me is the question mark.

i thought the scumminess of bringing up a talking point that might be taken as a scumtell for me but without actually having any sort of thoughts about it was obvious.

[Zoronos]

Do you think it's inaccurate that you were trying harder because of the votes on you?

I wasn't trying harder because of the votes on me.
I am definitely trying harder than normal.
There is a reason for that but I'm embarrassed to type it.

Spoiler: nobody but ruru read this

My last game on the site was with SS, NSG, and the_worst and I played absolutely atrociously. I feel bad about it. I want to not be atrocious again.
I played a game with MathDino a few years ago, and I tried to defend him from a bad case, but I was in the end atrocious in that game as well.

The_worst sent me a PM post game and suggested I play an open, so here I am. I don't want to let people down again.

Also I feel my tone read on the_worst's scum claim joke was a legit place to start so I figured why not start there and go.

[northsidegal]

I voted pintu because I wasn't voting anyone and it couldn't do any harm

this reasoning doesn't make sense to me coming from someone who believes that we should move out of RVS quickly and who takes steps to do so.

I don't really scumread blackstar, so to speak. Maybe a lean? I voted because he was scumreading Zor, and the reasoning on that (specifically having two reasons, one being a crappy RVS reason and the other being a crappy attempted reason) is bad. And I'm still voting there because nothing better has shown up.

well, you voted him before he explained any of his reasoning, so his reasoning itself can't have been the reason you voted him in the first place. you must have voted him initially

just

because he voted zor. or is there something i'm overlooking?


what do you think scum!blackstar sees as a strategy in voting someone people generally consider to be a townread and giving what anyone (even himself) can see is pretty weak reasoning?

[Mathdino]

Would NSG be aware that jjh has a reputation for being super obvtown as town? I, as scum in this playerlist, would absolutely not be trying to lynch jjh of all people.

I'm feeling mafia-lazy. Someone give me a read on ruru to sheep?