Open 728: Sharing is Caring (GAME OVER)

[ofrhz]

Yeah yeah I’m reading

Why is zoronos town? @math

Actually you can disregard this

[ofrhz]

I don't like the fact that he popped up as soon as we mentioned him or the fact that he hasn't tried to contribute anything so far, so I guess that makes him a scum lean. But if he's scum then it would make it much less likely that Zoro is scum. So I'm interested to see more of his posts

Ummmmm

I might be doing the thing where I flip out at someone for just not reading the thread (hi a50 xdddddd)

and yes, I didn't like that either

VOTE: ofrhz

Is this just because I showed up when I did

[pinturicchio]

@Zoronos I'm not voting JJH at this moment

[ofrhz]

Hitalt, pint and something smart seem town to me. I'm not sure about anyone else yet

Could you go into these a little bit more

[the worst]

ofrhz sure sounds a lot like ofrhz

[the worst]

actually not sure why this wagon is happening, can someone give me a hand?

[northsidegal]

mostly elli-tell for me

it was a read i was prepared to leave alone and see how it developed during the day, still up for that so i guess i'd prefer to not explain anything further if it's not necessary.

[Zoronos]

@Zoronos I'm not voting JJH at this moment

I know but you indicated you agreed with NSG's case on him / that was scummy.
Simply put, from my chair if you think JJH is scummy for buddying, you should be wondering about / investigating Orhz and SS as well. Maybe you came to different conclusions on them for ~reasons~, but I'd expect them to get at least some cursory investigation.

But I'd be remiss if I jumped to the end instead of picking up our discussion where we stopped.

Oh sorry, I think I misunderstood you the first time.

1. The inconsistency comes when you say you want to get out of RVS as soon as possible, but when a player comes and takes you out abruptly from RVS, try to go back to it with an RVS vote. Now, I won't lie, saying this out loud makes me think it's a silly way to look at that vote; jjh was basically greeting me 'cause I was late to the party.

2. Now about the misunderstanding: no I don't think jjh was trying to redirect heat off himself, 'cause I don't think there was heat on himself in the first place. What I find ironic is that, by saying that about NSG, NSG went full bananas on him but either way, about redirecting heat... I don't think that's a treat only scum has; town doesn't want to be the center of attention either. Town doesn't care that much maybe, but from my point of view, I try to analyze this things in a way like "is this relevant to my read on this player? If yes, why; if no, read something else". jjh's motivation is a no, first 'cause there's not enough evidence to think anything about that post, and second 'cause even if he was trying to derail attention, I wouldn't know how to read that.

So, bottom line it for me:
1) do you think JJH is scummy?
2) do you think NSG's case is a) towny, and correct b) towny but ???? accuracy c) towny but wrong
I'm presuming since you already expressed a town read on her that we can skip over it being NAI or scummy.

[ofrhz]

What’s an elli tell

[BlackStar]

Hitalt, pint and something smart seem town to me. I'm not sure about anyone else yet

Could you go into these a little bit more

Their posts felt genuine to me. Hitalt and pint seem like they're really trying to figure things out. I'd add NSG and Ruru to that list too. After looking through Something smrt's iso again I'd drop them down to null now

[the worst]

Elli tell is posting elsewhere onsite probably

[BlackStar]

@ofhrz who do you think is town and why?

[Mathdino]

Why does ellitell have 2 definitions smh

It's basically stalking someone until you have a secret meta tell on them

[the worst]

oohhhhh ok, someone said it was the posting elsewhere on site thing. that seemed pissweak for Elli.

[northsidegal]

Why does ellitell have 2 definitions smh

It's basically stalking someone until you have a secret meta tell on them

meh, i think that's a bad definition for it honestly, and the one i was using was the original

oohhhhh ok, someone said it was the posting elsewhere on site thing. that seemed pissweak for Elli.

no, you had it right

[ofrhz]

ruru is probably town. I’ve played two games with her, one scum and one town, and in her scumgame, she was passive (in her gameplay), like I don’t think scum!ruru would vote me in big text like she just did. Her posts were also stiff in tone in contrast to her RVS entrance. It’s occurred to me that she could have fabricated her game entrance (a few other people were in the same Newbie 1859 game where ruru was scum, so it’d be extremely beneficial for scum!ruru to do this) but I don’t think it’s likely given the ad hoc nature of the content

NSG is town mainly for asking people why they think she’s town and the early case focusing on JJH, which I don’t think are things that don’t come from scum NSG.

I have a weak townread on HWS because 121, specifically paragraph 2 where he analyzed JJH’s vote

[ofrhz]

Hitalt, pint and something smart seem town to me. I'm not sure about anyone else yet

Could you go into these a little bit more

Their posts felt genuine to me. Hitalt and pint seem like they're really trying to figure things out. I'd add NSG and Ruru to that list too. After looking through Something smrt's iso again I'd drop them down to null now

Which posts by pintu did you like? From what I’ve read, they’ve been mostly reactive in nature

[BlackStar]

Mmmm I don't think that's a good idea, you give Mafia information on what PRs they should use... If we decide Vig shouldn't shoot, then the Mafia Doctor won't use his target either

@Zoronos I thought you were being a tryhard, but I think we have diametrically opposed early playstyles and that's it. I fluff a lot early game and when I saw you were trying to get out of RVS so early pinged me a lot, but you've been consistent so that must be a playstyle preference that I don't share.

My townreads are better than my scumreads, especially this early. I tend to exaggerate my scumreads, like really dramatic and tinfoily scumreads, but my townreads are good. ruru and NSG are town, I'm trying to sort the rest of the players I've played with before (including the two gals, Mathdino, HWS, ofrhz, the worst and jjh. Maybe HitAlt? I don't know who he is)

I am definitely reducing the case to that, and on purpose. I feel it's the strongest point of the case. But let's go into more detail -
In depth Explanation:

Spoiler: thoughts

Her case had basically four points spread between 104 and 105

I had trouble following / agreeing with her 105. She calls out JJH's 41 (a vote on Pintu) for being 'essentially RVS', but she herself had voted Pintu in 37. I specifically commented on her vote in 44 with my impression / guess at why she might be voting him. So, if her vote in 37 is a legit strike, why is 41 essentially RVS? Is it the inclusion of the phrase 'Mr Blue Sky' when she had naked voted?
Alternatively, she is purposefully RVS'ing at that stage, and assumes JJH is as well, and the problem isn't the RVS vote itself, but the hypocrisy as contrasted to JJH's prior comments about getting out of RVS.

NSG had notes that she had trouble following JJH's progression when he voted me in 17 -> unvoted me in 24. I personally had no trouble understanding JJH's line of thinking. I didn't really explain my question until after his initial answer, so I can see a progression of 'That's a dumb question, vote' to 'Ooohhhh that's not a dumb question unvote'. He said as much in 21. If I put myself in JJH's shoes, it doesn't take me a huge struggle to figure out why he might react as he did in that sequence if he believes we 'should' still be in RVS.

Her last point, that she didn't get why JJH brought up that NSG was more interested in him than in the wagon on her does give me some pause, but I don't know what to make of either side of it.
JJH said "Worth noting that NSG is more interested in me than her wagon?". Which doesn't seem like a question, but has a question mark in it. So I'm not really sure who it was directed to in the first place. So I can totally understand NSG's confusion about it, but I'm a little on the 'so what' side of things there. I mostly ignored the wagon on me, as ruru noted a couple pages ago, so I'm not super surprised that NSG ignored the wagon on her, nor am I super surprised that it got brought up (again, ruru brought up that I ignored the wagon on me). The only thing about it that perplexes me is the question mark.

So, in essence, I believe the 'JJH is buddying / white knighting Zoronos' is the best data point of the case, and one I was myself somewhat concerned about. HWS noted similar slightly later in the thread as well. Ergo, that's the part of the case I wanted to talk about.

If you'll indulge me, lets move on to that last point. Do you think there's anything incriminating on either side of JJH noting and / or asking about Maria's lack of interest in the wagon? What do you think - innocent notation / chin scratch + "hmmm..." noise into the thread, or a nefarious attempt to redirect attention off of himself?

I'm not sure if I answered your question here about the RVS inconsistency. Did what I wrote in the spoiler make clear my thoughts on that 'inconsistency' or do we need to talk about it some more?

Well there's a phrase I usually use in my life that seems to be good to use now: not because's she's being hypocritical means that she's wrong. I get your point, but jjh was inconsistent at that point, and along with two other things that could be taken as scummy, NSG case makes sense, and makes sense coming from town, hense the townread coming from me.

Now about the last thing you said, I'll assume Maria is NSG? Something_Smart already said what I believe: an RVS wagon gives no info, neither from the people voting, nor from the voted. What do you think could be a conclusion about an RVS wagon? Like, saying NSG ignored RVS votes on her is like saying my case on Mathdino having short arms could be a good point.

Well there's a phrase I usually use in my life that seems to be good to use now: not because's she's being hypocritical means that she's wrong. I get your point, but jjh was inconsistent at that point, and along with two other things that could be taken as scummy, NSG case makes sense, and makes sense coming from town, hense the townread coming from me.

Now about the last thing you said, I'll assume Maria is NSG? Something_Smart already said what I believe: an RVS wagon gives no info, neither from the people voting, nor from the voted. What do you think could be a conclusion about an RVS wagon? Like, saying NSG ignored RVS votes on her is like saying my case on Mathdino having short arms could be a good point.

Fuck I said Maria when I meant NSG and those are entirely different players. I have no idea why I wrote that. Previous game playerlist sitting in my head still I guess.

So, what part of JJH's posts were inconsistent? Do you think that both he and NSG were RVS voting, which leads to an inconsistency with his earlier statement on dislike of RVS? Help me see your understanding of the evidence.

This response is a bit short because I'm working on responding in greater depth to NSG's question to me above: Short version - I don't think it matters at all that NSG ignored the RVS votes. I think it's entirely NAI. That's why I didn't bother asking about it, I don't think there's value to be gleaned.

However, I want your interpretation of JJH's question about NSG's wagon. Do *you* think JJH was trying to redirect heat off himself with that question, or was innocently pondering a thread event? Because if the former, that's a good point of evidence in NSG's case on him. If the later, it's not.

Oh sorry, I think I misunderstood you the first time.

1. The inconsistency comes when you say you want to get out of RVS as soon as possible, but when a player comes and takes you out abruptly from RVS, try to go back to it with an RVS vote. Now, I won't lie, saying this out loud makes me think it's a silly way to look at that vote; jjh was basically greeting me 'cause I was late to the party.

2. Now about the misunderstanding: no I don't think jjh was trying to redirect heat off himself, 'cause I don't think there was heat on himself in the first place. What I find ironic is that, by saying that about NSG, NSG went full bananas on him but either way, about redirecting heat... I don't think that's a treat only scum has; town doesn't want to be the center of attention either. Town doesn't care that much maybe, but from my point of view, I try to analyze this things in a way like "is this relevant to my read on this player? If yes, why; if no, read something else". jjh's motivation is a no, first 'cause there's not enough evidence to think anything about that post, and second 'cause even if he was trying to derail attention, I wouldn't know how to read that.

Deez

[BlackStar]

ruru is probably town. I’ve played two games with her, one scum and one town, and in her scumgame, she was passive (in her gameplay), like I don’t think scum!ruru would vote me in big text like she just did. Her posts were also stiff in tone in contrast to her RVS entrance. It’s occurred to me that she could have fabricated her game entrance (a few other people were in the same Newbie 1859 game where ruru was scum, so it’d be extremely beneficial for scum!ruru to do this) but I don’t think it’s likely given the ad hoc nature of the content

NSG is town mainly for asking people why they think she’s town and the early case focusing on JJH, which I don’t think are things that don’t come from scum NSG.

I have a weak townread on HWS because 121, specifically paragraph 2 where he analyzed JJH’s vote

I think I believe you...

[pinturicchio]

@Zoronos I'm not voting JJH at this moment

I know but you indicated you agreed with NSG's case on him / that was scummy.
Simply put, from my chair if you think JJH is scummy for buddying, you should be wondering about / investigating Orhz and SS as well. Maybe you came to different conclusions on them for ~reasons~, but I'd expect them to get at least some cursory investigation.

But I'd be remiss if I jumped to the end instead of picking up our discussion where we stopped.

Oh sorry, I think I misunderstood you the first time.

1. The inconsistency comes when you say you want to get out of RVS as soon as possible, but when a player comes and takes you out abruptly from RVS, try to go back to it with an RVS vote. Now, I won't lie, saying this out loud makes me think it's a silly way to look at that vote; jjh was basically greeting me 'cause I was late to the party.

2. Now about the misunderstanding: no I don't think jjh was trying to redirect heat off himself, 'cause I don't think there was heat on himself in the first place. What I find ironic is that, by saying that about NSG, NSG went full bananas on him but either way, about redirecting heat... I don't think that's a treat only scum has; town doesn't want to be the center of attention either. Town doesn't care that much maybe, but from my point of view, I try to analyze this things in a way like "is this relevant to my read on this player? If yes, why; if no, read something else". jjh's motivation is a no, first 'cause there's not enough evidence to think anything about that post, and second 'cause even if he was trying to derail attention, I wouldn't know how to read that.

So, bottom line it for me:
1) do you think JJH is scummy?
2) do you think NSG's case is a) towny, and correct b) towny but ???? accuracy c) towny but wrong
I'm presuming since you already expressed a town read on her that we can skip over it being NAI or scummy.

1) Yes, jjh is scummy, and I'm figuring out if, for him, being scummy = scum. There are scummy players by nature, there are players who play scummy to avoid being night killed, there are... you get my point.
2) ofrhz asked me practically the same a few posts ago and I replied. NSG's case is townie and correct if by 'correct' you mean "she's right about jjh being scummy", not "she's right and jjh is probably scum". I'm trying to sort jjh myself and NSG's case on him is a good start.

One more thing: you are again assuming that I should think that ofrhz' question was loaded, and I don't think that; I know ofrhz, he's much more straight forward. Even if I didn't know him, I would still think that question wasn't loaded. About Something_Smart, that's new, do you feel buddied by him?

[Zoronos]

1) I understand.
2) Sorry, must have missed that, didn't mean to ask a redundant question. And yes, that's exactly what I mean by correct. I've seen plenty of cases where I looked at them and went "I don't agree with your read at all, but I think what you wrote came from town.' I realize there's some air gap between 'He's def scum' and 'He's doing scummy things', but what I was interested in was whether or not you found his underlying posting scummy for the reasons stated in the case. And it sounds like that's 'qualified-yes'.

3) I think / thought ofhrz's question had intent behind it (even if he's disclaiming it), so I figured others would reasonably wonder it as well. Certainly so if they were thinking about buddying behaviors.

I don't feel buddied by him; he's been much more passive in his town read on me, but he did respond to a vote / scumread on me (I forget which, it was a while ago) by stating he townread me. He's in the pool of 'people that defended Zor' though, hence why I raised his name here.

[pinturicchio]

1) I understand.
2) Sorry, must have missed that, didn't mean to ask a redundant question. And yes, that's exactly what I mean by correct. I've seen plenty of cases where I looked at them and went "I don't agree with your read at all, but I think what you wrote came from town.' I realize there's some air gap between 'He's def scum' and 'He's doing scummy things', but what I was interested in was whether or not you found his underlying posting scummy for the reasons stated in the case. And it sounds like that's 'qualified-yes'.

3) I think / thought ofhrz's question had intent behind it (even if he's disclaiming it), so I figured others would reasonably wonder it as well. Certainly so if they were thinking about buddying behaviors.

I don't feel buddied by him; he's been much more passive in his town read on me, but he did respond to a vote / scumread on me (I forget which, it was a while ago) by stating he townread me. He's in the pool of 'people that defended Zor' though, hence why I raised his name here.

3) Well to be fair I don't know how scum!ofrhz plays so there could be buddying behaviors, but if that was the case, I would expect him to buddy players he already know, like ruru, Math, NSG or me, four players who he has played two other games where he was town. But I get your point.

I asked you about SS 'cause he's under my radar at this moment. Yes, we agreed on RVS low info, but I don't recall anything else coming from him.

[HeWhoSwims]

Would NSG be aware that jjh has a reputation for being super obvtown as town? I, as scum in this playerlist, would absolutely not be trying to lynch jjh of all people.

I'm feeling mafia-lazy. Someone give me a read on ruru to sheep?

Not even when you have a semi good reason? It's weak but NSG's reasoning checks out and usually we don't get anything better D1. Whatcha thing about it? .

VOTE: Zoronos
Convenient, you're the person before me in the list and in the thread.

By the way, does anybody knows this guy?

I played my first scumgame / 2nd game overall with him back in December/January! Not that I remember a shitton of meta... But I could always refresh my mind.


Hard agree with NSG et al that ofrhz asking for a reason for a vote is entirelu different from what JJH did. I tend to do the same and wanted to ask for example when ruru naked voted a little while back.

[HeWhoSwims]

Now about the misunderstanding: no I don't think jjh was trying to redirect heat off himself, 'cause I don't think there was heat on himself in the first place. What I find ironic is that, by saying that about NSG, NSG went full bananas on him but either way, about redirecting heat... I don't think that's a treat only scum has; town doesn't want to be the center of attention either. Town doesn't care that much maybe, but from my point of view, I try to analyze this things in a way like "is this relevant to my read on this player? If yes, why; if no, read something else". jjh's motivation is a no, first 'cause there's not enough evidence to think anything about that post, and second 'cause even if he was trying to derail attention, I wouldn't know how to read that

I personally think this was a damning thing so let's discuss. What does town jjh get from redirecting this off of himself now? I do feel he had a small bit of pressure after somewhat of a flaming start. As if he didn't want attraction to divert from him as much as from his content... Do you see what I'm saying or am I seeing this wrong? Also I'd find this more excusable if it were an actual wagon but it's RVS

[HeWhoSwims]

Agree with NSG however that then voting BlackStar who votes Zoro is also ???. However I feel the scum motivation for doing that would be to sort of buddy up to Zoro... I really doubt jjh who seems to have been here for a decent amount of time, would blatantly do that.

Anyone wanna talk about this? Don't think it was discussed really?