Mini Normal 2012: Tropical Mafia [Endgame]

[Shoshin]

i like this better
VOTE: Shoshin

How do you square this with your scumread on JJD?

[Invisibility]

i like this better
VOTE: Shoshin

How do you square this with your scumread on JJD?

you're recent push on Mumble has been scummier than JJD

it's not rocket science

[bacy]

Garuga should not have claimed. Even though I was pushing his wagon it wasn't getting a lot of support so I was leaving it as well. Don't get his early (L-4?) claim.

Still like my vote from eod yesterday.

VOTE: Shoshin

v/LA till Tuesday morning

for holiday weekend in US.

why do you feel the need to justify your vote/unvote on garuga?

[bacy]

im kinda feeling shoshin as town tbh, will post more thoughts in the morning though

[Mumble]

im kinda feeling shoshin as town tbh, will post more thoughts in the morning though

Looking forward to it given their votes versus thoughts today.

[Shoshin]

I'm voting Mumble for a few reasons. First, Mumble says he never implied that Invisibility is town, even though he's been defending Invisibility (and thus implying Invisibility is town) on both D1 and D2 - and that's scummy because he's acting in a way that shows he's pre-inclined to read Invisibility as town while refusing to actually commit to a position. Second, Mumble's done very little other than vote townies (me, Garuga, and Rampage) when it was popular (read: opportunistic) to do so. And third, Mumble's unnaturally defensive in a way that betrays a scum perspective.

For those of you who aren't seeing what I'm talking about, here's a post-by-post breakdown:

I haven't seen any questions aimed at me in the last few pages, so here's my prodge:

I getting a vibe from texcat that she'll be easier to sort as the game goes forward and more substantial info comes up. Nullreading her for now.
I think BBT should reveal his townread. Since the only posters between 64 and 71 are me, bacy and Invisibility, I'm guessing it's bacy, but it would be nice to get official confirmation.

Lynchplan:
VOTE: Invisibility
2. havingfitz
3. Shoshin
4. Gustavo

Interesting. Why Invisibility?

Mumble questions Garuga's read on Invisibility.

He's not providing clear arguments for his reads. His "what?" trilogy (151 153 155) is probably the best example, along with the (19 23 28) trio early on.

So why naked vote him (essentially doing what you are scum reading him for) instead of asking him to clarify?

Because I see an alternative reason for your vote...

The Invisibility questioning becomes a defense ("why vote him instead of asking for clarification?").

Um...I'm not new? The re-vote is ridiculous and confusing (especially since I'm having a time differentiating you and Gustavo).

However, you didn't answer my question about clarification, and instead try to throw shade on me for a really weak reason.

VOTE: Garuga

Mumble continues defending Invisibility by voting Invisibility's attacker.

Mumble also interprets Garuga's 311 as an attack when it's clearly not. Seriously, read 311. There's no hint of an attack on Mumble, yet Mumble feels attacked? Scum know townies are after them, so they tend to feel unnaturally defensive when engaging townies in a conversation.

So, assuming the entirety of that was directed at Invisibility (unclear, but I'll assume), I agree with the points he made on you at the time. You feel like you're scum reading him because he voted you.

Mumble continues defending Invisibility. And Mumble continues suggesting that 311 is an attack, even after Garuga clarified that Mumble misinterpreted him.

I think my vote is better served here for the moment.

VOTE: TheRampage

Mumble votes a townie, which has become the popular (and safe) wagon at this point. He offers no reasons for joining the wagon. He's the fifth vote of seven.

Summarize your D1 points. I don't see how his refusal to hammer Rampage while pushing another read is scum oriented. Looking at his ISO, I don't see anything to assume he knew Rampage would flip town and that seems presumptuous./quote]
Mumble continues defending Invisibility by attacking the reasoning for my push. Mumble's blindness is also unnatural - it's fairly obvious why refusing to hammer Rampage while allowing the Rampage lynch to happen is scum-oriented (scum love to let mislynches happen without having to actually vote town themselves), and Invisibility's ISO exhibits further evidence of an informed perspective when Invisibility read Rampage as VI (i.e. scummy but town) (evidence that Mumble has chosen to ignore so that he can attack my push as "presumptuous").

VOTE: Shosin

Now answer my fucking questions.

Mumble votes town, not because he reads me as scum, but because I want him to offer some thoughts on the game uninfluenced by my answers to his questions.

I've not implied that I think Invis is town...I asked why you think he was scum given your naked opening vote. I jumped on Rampage because we hadn't had a wagon at that point, and wagons are good (absent dumbasses who will end the day early with them).

Mumble says he never implied that Invisibility is town... so Mumble's ignoring the pattern of defending Invisibility throughout the game? He doesn't want to take a position on anything. He even disclaims any sort of conviction in the Rampage wagon ("I voted Rampage because wagons are good, not because he was scummy"). There's no hint of any attempt to actually scumhunt or identify scum in his posting, nor is there any attempt to make his alignment known to us - only defensive moves (for himself and Invisibility) and votes on townies without any meaningful conviction behind them.

Invisibility, explain how Mumble's a townread for you? and explain how anything about my push (or its reasoning) is scummy?

[Invisibility]

when did i say that mumble was a townread
its too late now, i'll have to answer the second question tomorrow

[Mumble]

Like...literally, nothing you quoted was a defense for Invis, nor does it state that I have a townread on Invis.

Could you go back an explain why you vote Invis while pushing Fitz? I'm keen on understanding that. You know...cuz that's how you opened the day unprompted.

[Shoshin]

when did i say that mumble was a townread

You implied it. But please clarify if I'm mistaken - is Mumble town or scum?

[Shoshin]

I didn't push HF. I raised concerns about his play.

[Mumble]

I didn't push HF. I raised concerns about his play.

Bullshit:

HF's failure to reevaluate anything, as well as his non-opposition to the Rampage lynch while never actually taking much of a position about Rampage, worries me. I also think Garuga's death makes a lot of sense from a scum HF perspective (Garuga scumread him, after all).

[Mumble]

You are calling him scum while voting another slot.

[Shoshin]

You are calling him scum while voting another slot.

Do you think there's only one scum in the game?

[Mumble]

You are calling him scum while voting another slot.

Do you think there's only one scum in the game?

No, but I think it's odd to push one while voting someone else. That is, if you don't know who they are.

[Mumble]

I didn't push HF. I raised concerns about his play.

Also, are you saying that you didn't push HF?

Just want to confirm that.

[Shoshin]

No, but I think it's odd to push one while voting someone else. That is, if you don't know who they are.

I wasn't pushing HF, unless by "push" you mean "raising concerns about a player." I brought up an issue with his play about which I wanted feedback, that's all. It's how I go about refining reads. But even if I were pushing multiple players, there's nothing "odd" about that when you know there's multiple scum. I'm usually pretty happy if my 2nd strongest scumread is the lynch.

[Invisibility]

actually i can respond

your reasoning on the scumbuddy/knowing im town thing is bad. especially when you're telling me to join the wagon. also you're being contradictory by calling me scum and then telling me to join the wagon

[Invisibility]

i dont think calling Shoshin's concern about HF a "push" is a valid criticism

[Invisibility]

also i have mixed feelings about Mumble right now, but i would say he's a slight townlean

[Invisibility]

@Shoshin Did you still think I'm scum and did you think that I was scum at 443?

[Mumble]

No, but I think it's odd to push one while voting someone else. That is, if you don't know who they are.

I wasn't pushing HF, unless by "push" you mean "raising concerns about a player." I brought up an issue with his play about which I wanted feedback, that's all. It's how I go about refining reads. But even if I were pushing multiple players, there's nothing "odd" about that when you know there's multiple scum. I'm usually pretty happy if my 2nd strongest scumread is the lynch.

The issue is the timing. You opened up with a naked vote on Invis (meaning no reasoning attached, though when pressed you provided one), but gave reasoning for a scum read on Fitz (without a vote). That's a push.

From what I can see, you voted me because of my scumread on you (and have yet to answer my initial questions).

Could you answer my initial questions?

[Shoshin]

your reasoning on the scumbuddy/knowing im town thing is bad. especially when you're telling me to join the wagon. also you're being contradictory by calling me scum and then telling me to join the wagon

What's bad about my reasoning? If you're town, don't you find it odd that Mumble keeps defending you while refusing to townread you? The point is that his behavior betrays an informed perspective about your alignment, regardless of whether you're town or scum.

There's nothing contradictory about asking you to join a wagon on Mumble - it's in the town's interest for people to vote scum, regardless of whether the voters are scum/town, plus it's an opportunity for you to show me how you think about the game. It's a reaction test with a pro-town objective. So far, you haven't given me any reason to townread you but I'm constantly reevaluating and if you're town I'd very much appreciate you making that as clear as possible to me.

[Invisibility]

no? its more like Mumble doesn't get why Garuga thought that i should have been lynched. it was less of a defense and more of a callout of poor logic

[northsidegal]

-

[northsidegal]

-